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    deene islam ki bunyaad sirf quraan hai yaa qurano sunnat?

    jahaan tak maine quraan ko samjhaa hai isse se saaf saaf zahir hai deene islam ki bunyaad sirf aur sirf quran hi hai. magar doosri taraf her mullah yahee bataata hai keh deene islam ki bunyaad quraano sunnat yaa quraano hadis hai yani sirf quraan deene islam ki bunyaad nahin hai.

    main jaanana chahoon ga jo log quraan ke saath saath sunnat yaa hadis ko bhi islam ki bunyaad bataate hen un ke paas dalaail kia kia hen.








    Last edited by Mughal1; Feb 11, 2018, 09:56 AM.

    #2
    Re: deene islam ki bunyaad sirf quraan hai yaa qurano sunnat?

    Peace Mughal1,

    Have you not read/heard/listened the verse of Qur'an "that whoever follows (obey) Prophet he actually followed (obeyed) Almighty Allah".
    Never explain urself to any1 The person who likes u doesn't need it &The person who dislike u won't believe it

    Comment


      #3
      Re: deene islam ki bunyaad sirf quraan hai yaa qurano sunnat?

      Originally posted by lethal kamikaze View Post
      Peace Mughal1,

      Have you not read/heard/listened the verse of Qur'an "that whoever follows (obey) Prophet he actually followed (obeyed) Almighty Allah".
      azeezam kamikaze sb, yes I have but it does not mean what you are taking it to mean. Why not?

      1)It is because the only ruler of this world is Allah not any human being be one messenger of Allah. This is clear message of the quran. It is only and only right of Allah to give law and he has in form of his revelations of which we have the final one ie the quran.

      This is why in deen of islam no human being can rule other human beings. If we accept any other ruler than Allah then we are committing shirk ie we are associating partners with Allah in his kingdom. None has the right to rule even an atom or even its particles other than Allah. He created all things and each and everything belongs to him alone ie even a photon. So no one has any right over anything at all unless given by God himself for his own reason or purpose.

      This means all other verses in the quran from which it may appear to us that anyone else may be our lord or master they need to be interpreted in light of these verses which cannot be challenged no mater what. If we do not do this then we introduce contradictions within the message of the quran.

      2)It is of vital importance to remember that all messengers of Allah were human beings, nothing less nothing more. Human beings are prone to human errors.

      The quran clearly quotes some events regarding messengers of Allah wherein they are criticised for falling short of what God required of them. You can read their stories in the quran. This is why a human being cannot be the standard of perfection instead it is word of Allah that is the standard because it is perfect and not prone to any mistakes or errors.

      Since messengers of Allah did make odd mistakes here and there be it not deliberately including the final messenger of Allah therefore to follow their words and deeds blindly is not consistent with teaching of the quran. They are examples for rest of humanity only in things which they said or did according to the revelation of Allah. Where they ended up making any mistakes we are not supposed to follow them like blind people follow each other. If we follow anyone blindly independent of the quran then we are creating personality cults which lead us to sectarianism.

      Words deen of islam only mean a label or name if we have no basis for it to begin with. If try to give it a base then it has to be the quran alone or we cannot base it upon the quran and sunnah or quran and hadis. The reason is explained already above ie the possibility of a messenger of Allah making a mistake. If we try to interpret the quran which is perfect through the information which is of doubtful origin or is mistaken then we can never end up with proper interpretation of the quran so we cannot have deen of islam to begin with. This is why we must accept the quran as basic source of deen of islam and interpret the quran by the quran in light of real world realities. The very idea that the quran should be interpreted through hadis or sunnah is a wrong idea because other sources themselves depend upon the proper understanding of the quran for their authenticity before they could be used for interpreting the quran. I hope this explanation helps you understand the issue better.

      regards and all the best.




      Last edited by Mughal1; Feb 12, 2018, 06:28 AM.

      Comment


        #4
        Re: deene islam ki bunyaad sirf quraan hai yaa qurano sunnat?

        My take is Quran IS the Islam. Quran defines what is halal/haram, it provides you the boundaries/basis. For 'how to do the fardh' you can refer to Sunnah. But to look at Sunnah/Ahadith and derive fardh/wajib/makrooh from that is not right.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: deene islam ki bunyaad sirf quraan hai yaa qurano sunnat?

          Peace [MENTION=104386]Mughal1[/MENTION],

          What you wrote above in post #3 , partially I agreed where you haven't singled out Qur'an with Sunnah or Hadith or Prophets/Messengers PBUH. However, I disagree with you, where you just singled out Qur'an from Sunnah or Hadith or Prophets/Messengers PBUH.

          However, still you haven't answered my question at post#2 , in a simple plain easy short brief in understandable language. Rather you post very long post with some relevant / irrelevant videos some of which nothing have to do with my question.

          Will you please answer the question at post #2 is simple befitting manner please, so we as well as other readers may understand?
          Never explain urself to any1 The person who likes u doesn't need it &The person who dislike u won't believe it

          Comment


            #6
            Re: deene islam ki bunyaad sirf quraan hai yaa qurano sunnat?

            Originally posted by Captain1 View Post
            My take is Quran IS the Islam. Quran defines what is halal/haram, it provides you the boundaries/basis. For 'how to do the fardh' you can refer to Sunnah. But to look at Sunnah/Ahadith and derive fardh/wajib/makrooh from that is not right.
            Peace Captain1,

            But Almighty Allah says in Qur'an that when "HE (Almighty Allah) and His Messenger have decided a matter, thereafter we must follow/obey", means to follow what is in Qur'an as well what is in Sunnah/Hadiths.

            What you said (highlighted in red) is against what Almighty Allah says in Qur'an.

            Can you explain?
            Never explain urself to any1 The person who likes u doesn't need it &The person who dislike u won't believe it

            Comment


              #7
              Re: deene islam ki bunyaad sirf quraan hai yaa qurano sunnat?

              Originally posted by lethal kamikaze View Post
              Peace @Mughal1,

              What you wrote above in post #3 , partially I agreed where you haven't singled out Qur'an with Sunnah or Hadith or Prophets/Messengers PBUH. However, I disagree with you, where you just singled out Qur'an from Sunnah or Hadith or Prophets/Messengers PBUH.

              However, still you haven't answered my question at post#2 , in a simple plain easy short brief in understandable language. Rather you post very long post with some relevant / irrelevant videos some of which nothing have to do with my question.

              Will you please answer the question at post #2 is simple befitting manner please, so we as well as other readers may understand?
              azeezam lethal kamikaze sb, you need to understand the fact that God is God and his messenger is his messenger, nothing less and nothing more.

              The real point here is, it is God who wanted to send his message for mankind not messenger of God. The part messenger plays in this scheme is message bearer just to pass on God's message to people.

              By giving the wrong job description of messenger we are turn him into a God instead of God's messenger. The messenger was supposed to deliver message of God as it was ie as he received it from God, without adding anything to it or taking away anything from it.

              After he delivered the message of God as it was, it was then up to people to accept it or reject it. The mistake you are making in trying to understand my explanation is you are not separating the communication chain from the message the chain is supposed to deliver for which the communication chain is set up by God who made sure it worked for his purpose and it does and that is why we have the quran today so many centuries after the messenger of God has gone from this world.

              Think about why God needed to send his message? It was because he wanted to tell mankind why he created them and what they need to do to fulfil plan and purpose of God. The quran explains all this and that is it. This is why the actual framework or structure of deen of islam has to come from the quran alone not from mixed sources particularly when those sources are prone to making mistakes.

              Messengers of God have been making mistakes and that is what the quran itself tells us. For this reason God could not tell us to follow them unconditionally that is why whenever God tells us to follow his messenger it means in things which he did according to the quran to fulfil his God given mission and not absolutely in each everything he said or did. To follow anyone absolutely is impossible because one can never know each and everything about anyone, it is limited by natural limitations how much we can know about anyone, so people who tell us we know each and everything about the messenger of God are not realising what they are saying or claiming about messenger of God. Moreover there are things which messengers of Allah said and did which if we did we will become kaafir therefore it is wrong to say we must follow messenger of God absolutely or unlimitedly. So what is so difficult there to understand if people have learned the knowledge they need to make proper sense of the message in the quran? If they have not learned the needed knowledge to understand the message in the quran properly then they cannot understand any explanation no matter how detailed it is.

              Moreover how can you use a secondary source to interpret the main source if secondary source itself depends upon main source for its qualification? This is why the quran alone has to be foundation of deen of islam. However once we have derived the structure of deen of islam from the quran alone there after we can use all other sources to fill in detailed where need be.

              Furthermore mullahs have misinterpreted the quran by telling us it is a complete code of life instead of telling us we need to extract framework of deen of islam from the quran to form a complete code of life to live by. The quran does not give us a fully worked out constitution and laws for organising human society and regulating it. This is why we do not have ummah as the prophet left behind after its formation on basis of the quran alone. Unless we go back to the quran alone as foundation of deen of islam there is not going to be any ummah in future either.

              regards and all the best.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: deene islam ki bunyaad sirf quraan hai yaa qurano sunnat?

                Never explain urself to any1 The person who likes u doesn't need it &The person who dislike u won't believe it

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: deene islam ki bunyaad sirf quraan hai yaa qurano sunnat?

                  3:134) Say, Obey Allah and the Messenger; but if they turn away, then remember that Allah loves not the disbelievers.

                  8:22)
                  O ye who believe! obey Allah and His Messenger, and do not turn away from him while you hear him speak.

                  24:57)
                  And observe Prayer and give the Zakat and obey the Messenger, that you may be shown mercy.

                  and many more.

                  It is Quran (word of Allah) that is mentioning all that.

                  So Quran and Sunnah are the basis. Quran is the pivot (rope of Allah). hadith comes after these two
                  Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. Albert Einstein

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: deene islam ki bunyaad sirf quraan hai yaa qurano sunnat?

                    Quran alone is base of deen of islam, not quran & hadis or quran & sunnah, why not?

                    One needs to understand that from my point of view I like to explain things in a bit of detail because my point of view is not widely known already as other points of views. It is easier for people to talk to each other when they already know where they are coming from but a bit difficult when it comes to discussion between not well known points of views. This is why if I only stated some fact and did not explain them then one will not know what I am trying to say and why, this is why some detail becomes absolutely necessary or one will never know what I am trying to explain or why.

                    Let me make it absolutely clear that I do not reject any source of information about deen of islam at all. What I reject is the idea that all sources are equal with the quraan. That I cannot accept unless someone can clearly prove that that is the case beyond any reasonable doubt which no one has done so far in my life time. Looking at something clearly visible through smeared glasses is not going to let us see the thing clearly likewise looking at clear message of God through problematic hadis reports is not going to help us understand the quran properly. Moreover each thing has its own place value just like numbers in maths. One cannot just say a number but need to have context otherwise the number will not make any sense. Words likewise only make sense when they have contexts or a purposes to serve.

                    The reason I take the quran to be the only foundation of deen of islam is because it was God who created this world according to his plan for his purpose alone. This is why it was he who wanted to reveal his plan and purpose for mankind therefore he decided to send his messages for mankind. For this reason he devised a communication channel or chain through which he communicated his message for mankind. The revelation chain is not an exception rather like any other set up of this universe for various other purposes it is just another set up to serve a particular purpose eg one can look at ecosystem or solar system or rain cycle etc etc. The communication chain includes God and his missionaries ie people who work for him.

                    This explanation should make it very clear that communication channel and message of God are two different things. Purpose of communication channel is to act as medium for transmission of message of God and purpose of message of God is to guide mankind regarding matters which God thought were important for mankind to know so that mankind could fulfil his purpose for their part in his scheme of things. So everything revolves around plan and purpose of God for which he created this universe and people in it. Had God no purpose for creating this universe and people in it with ability of limited freedom of choice then he needed no plan nor did he need to create this universe. So making proper sense of his purpose and his plan is a basic necessity for understanding deen of islam because that is the reason he told mankind a way of life whereby they could fulfil his purpose according to his plan.

                    As for message of God once it reaches people through people it is up to people to accept it or reject it with their own understanding of it as they see fit for themselves. This message needs prior understanding of things before people could understand it. If it is given to people who lack in needed knowledge then they will not know what to do with it and the best example for that is human babies. Anything you give to a human baby he puts it in his mouth taking it as his feed. The only people who can understand the message in the quran is those who are literate themselves and have good knowledge of things the quran is talking about or those to whom the quran is recited and explained by others and they become sensible enough to make proper sense of things. The rest are as good as living dead.

                    This should explain why I say the quran should be understood in light of real world realities because that is what the quran is actually about ie it is a teaching for mankind as to how to live properly in this world. If I say to a baby make me a cup of tea. The baby will not know what I am talking about because baby has not yet learned words or relationship of words with things in the real world. He can repeat my words if he can talk but cannot carry out my request. This will remain the situation till baby grows enough and has sufficient life experience to come to know what my request meant for him. Only and only then he will be able to carry out my request. The quran is not any different when it comes to learning it for its proper understanding. Only those people come to understand it properly who have learned the way to understand it properly and they have learned the needed information and have the needed life experience. So all people who claim to know the quran if they are questioned about it, a huge majority of them will be dumbfounded.

                    The real point here is, it is God who wanted to send his message for mankind because he had to tell something to mankind and not messenger of God because messenger of God did not create people for his purpose according to his plan. The part messenger of God played in this scheme is, message bearer, ie just to pass on God's message to people after understanding it himself ie before he could do that he had to make sense of the message of God for himself according to his time and available human knowledge because he too had to act upon it and the message told him to deliver it to others and that is why he delivered it to others or taught it to others to the best of his God given abilities. We need to remember that God passed on his message to his messenger for himself and others not just for himself nor just for others.

                    By giving the wrong job description of messenger we are turning him into a God instead of God's messenger. The messenger was supposed to deliver message of God as it was ie as he received it from God, without adding anything to it or taking away anything from it. This is why the quran tells us he did not speak anything as quran other than the quran itself. It does not mean whatever he said or did was always revelations of God. It is because messengers of God made odd mistakes that is why their those stories are also told in the quran to ensure people do not take them for other than human beings. When a person himself makes mistakes how can he create a message like that of God's message by himself? It is because messengers of God are also human beings they too are prone to making mistakes called human errors but God draws their attention to their errors and they correct them. However no messenger of God ever does anything wrong deliberately or intentionally.

                    The mistake people make in trying to understand this issue is that they do not separating the communication chain from the message the chain is supposed to deliver for which the communication chain is set up by God who made sure it worked for his purpose according to his plan and it does and that is why we have the quran today so many centuries after the final messenger of God has gone from this world. This is why the actual framework or structure of deen of islam has to come from the quran alone not from mixed sources particularly when those sources are prone to mistakes and errors beyond corrections. During the revelation of the quraan any mistake made by the messenger of God was corrected by God but after the stopping of the revelation when people started attributing things to him there was no revelation from God any more for correcting people. This is why whatever people attributed to God or his messenger was no longer as reliable as whatever was left behind by the messenger of God as the quran. This is why distinguishing between revelation of God and reports by people becomes inevitable.

                    The fact is, messengers of God have been making mistakes and that is what the quran itself tells us. For this reason God could not tell us to follow them unconditionally or blindly that is why whenever God tells us to follow his messenger it means in things which he did according to the quran to fulfil his God given mission and not absolutely in each and everything he said or did. To follow anyone absolutely is naturally impossible because one can never know each and everything about anyone even on daily basis or we ought to have diaries of messenger of God not hadis books. Moreover look at human attention span. How many people can remain fully alert and aware or attentive during a whole 24 hour day? People get tired after a while and that is why people go to sleep to recoup their energy. Even when we are fully attentive we cannot pay attention to everything that is happening all around us. If we look at one things in front of us there is another thing going on behind us. We can only focus on one thing at a time. This is why when a magician makes us look at one thing in one of his hands he does something else with his other hand to which we are not paying attention. So due to such natural limitations how much can we know about anyone at all including our own very selves?

                    So people who tell us we know each and everything about the messenger of God are not realising what they are saying or claiming about messenger of God otherwise they could never claim what they claim about messenger of God. Moreover there are things which messengers of Allah said and did as reported in hadis books which if we said and did we will become kaafir therefore it is wrong to say we must follow messenger of God absolutely and unconditionally without any limits or qualifications. So I do not see what is so difficult there to understand if people have learned the knowledge they need to, to make proper sense of the message in the quran? If they have not learned the needed knowledge to understand the message in the quran properly then they cannot understand any explanation no matter how detailed it is. It is because we human beings are born not knowing a thing and it takes us ages to grow up by learning things bit by bit on daily basis. This is the real extent of explanation that is required for a human being to start making proper sense of things.

                    Moreover how can one use a secondary source to interpret the main source if secondary source itself depends upon main source for its qualification or authenticity? This is why the quran alone has to be the foundation of deen of islam. However once we have derived the structure or framework of deen of islam from the quran alone in light of real world realities thereafter we can use all other sources to fill in details where need be that is consistent with the framework of deen of islam as derived from the quran alone just like bits of jig saw puzzle. I am saying real world realities because the quran is all about how people ought to live in the real world. Deen of islam is nothing other than a way of life advised by Allah for mankind to live in this world properly to fulfil his purpose of creating them according to his given plan or roadmap or program.

                    Furthermore mullahs have misinterpreted the quran by telling us it is a complete code of life instead of telling us we need to extract framework of deen of islam from the quran to form a complete code of life to live by. The quran does not give us a fully worked out constitution and laws for organising human society and regulating it. This is why we do not have ummah as the final messenger of God left behind after its formation on basis of the quran alone. As I see it unless we go back to the quran alone as foundation of deen of islam there is not going to be any ummah in the future either as it has not been over the so many past centuries.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: deene islam ki bunyaad sirf quraan hai yaa qurano sunnat?

                      Originally posted by kchughtai View Post
                      3:134) Say, ‘Obey Allah and the Messenger;’ but if they turn away, then remember that Allah loves not the disbelievers.

                      8:22)
                      O ye who believe! obey Allah and His Messenger, and do not turn away from him while you hear him speak.

                      24:57)
                      And observe Prayer and give the Zakat and obey the Messenger, that you may be shown mercy.

                      and many more.

                      It is Quran (word of Allah) that is mentioning all that.

                      So Quran and Sunnah are the basis. Quran is the pivot (rope of Allah). hadith comes after these two

                      azeezam kchughtai sb, did I not say, God tells us in the quran to follow his messenger? I did. However I also said God says in the quraan his messengers made mistakes. This if not explained sensibly will seem a contradiction with in the quran. So you should also post verses from the quran in which God tells us which of his prophets made what sort of mistake. Then you can try and explain away this contradiction as best as you can. Simply putting forth one type of verses does not give the full picture.

                      1)God says follow my messengers.

                      2)God says his messengers made mistakes.

                      Is God telling us to make mistakes deliberately instead of using our own sense in such cases so that we avoid mistakes?

                      You have stringed together the quran and the sunnah, could you please define sunnah for me so that I could see what you are trying to explain.

                      regards and all the best.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: deene islam ki bunyaad sirf quraan hai yaa qurano sunnat?

                        Originally posted by lethal kamikaze View Post
                        azeezam lethal kamekaze sb, what is worrying you?

                        Cheer up. It is always good idea to use our own brains rather than following others like sheep.

                        regards and all the best.




                        Last edited by Mughal1; Feb 26, 2018, 09:08 PM.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: deene islam ki bunyaad sirf quraan hai yaa qurano sunnat?

                          Originally posted by Mughal1 View Post
                          azeezam kchughtai sb, did I not say, God tells us in the quran to follow his messenger? I did. However I also said God says in the quraan his messengers made mistakes. This if not explained sensibly will seem a contradiction with in the quran. So you should also post verses from the quran in which God tells us which of his prophets made what sort of mistake. Then you can try and explain away this contradiction as best as you can. Simply putting forth one type of verses does not give the full picture.

                          1)God says follow my messengers.

                          2)God says his messengers made mistakes.

                          Is God telling us to make mistakes deliberately instead of using our own sense in such cases so that we avoid mistakes?

                          You have stringed together the quran and the sunnah, could you please define sunnah for me so that I could see what you are trying to explain.

                          regards and all the best.
                          Which mistakes are you referring to? please explain briefly quoting verses from the Quran
                          Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. Albert Einstein

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: deene islam ki bunyaad sirf quraan hai yaa qurano sunnat?

                            Peace @Mughal1,

                            If you think your long posting, long irrelevant posting will make any difference then I'm afraid you're wrong. Please just answer my simple question rather than posting long, very long unbearable posts.

                            Originally posted by Mughal1 View Post
                            azeezam lethal kamikaze sb, you need to understand the fact that God is God and his messenger is his messenger, nothing less and nothing more.
                            Irrelevant post. Please answer question at post #2 .

                            Originally posted by Mughal1 View Post
                            The real point here is, it is God who wanted to send his message for mankind not messenger of God. The part messenger plays in this scheme is message bearer just to pass on God's message to people.
                            Irrelevant post. Please answer question at post #2 .

                            Originally posted by Mughal1 View Post
                            By giving the wrong job description of messenger we are turn him into a God instead of God's messenger. The messenger was supposed to deliver message of God as it was ie as he received it from God, without adding anything to it or taking away anything from it.
                            Irrelevant post. Please answer question at post #2 .

                            Originally posted by Mughal1 View Post
                            After he delivered the message of God as it was, it was then up to people to accept it or reject it. The mistake you are making in trying to understand my explanation is you are not separating the communication chain from the message the chain is supposed to deliver for which the communication chain is set up by God who made sure it worked for his purpose and it does and that is why we have the quran today so many centuries after the messenger of God has gone from this world.
                            Irrelevant post. Please answer question at post #2 .

                            Originally posted by Mughal1 View Post
                            Think about why God needed to send his message? It was because he wanted to tell mankind why he created them and what they need to do to fulfil plan and purpose of God. The quran explains all this and that is it. This is why the actual framework or structure of deen of islam has to come from the quran alone not from mixed sources particularly when those sources are prone to making mistakes.
                            Irrelevant post. Please answer question at post #2 .

                            Originally posted by Mughal1 View Post
                            Messengers of God have been making mistakes and that is what the quran itself tells us. For this reason God could not tell us to follow them unconditionally that is why whenever God tells us to follow his messenger it means in things which he did according to the quran to fulfil his God given mission and not absolutely in each everything he said or did. To follow anyone absolutely is impossible because one can never know each and everything about anyone, it is limited by natural limitations how much we can know about anyone, so people who tell us we know each and everything about the messenger of God are not realising what they are saying or claiming about messenger of God. Moreover there are things which messengers of Allah said and did which if we did we will become kaafir therefore it is wrong to say we must follow messenger of God absolutely or unlimitedly. So what is so difficult there to understand if people have learned the knowledge they need to make proper sense of the message in the quran? If they have not learned the needed knowledge to understand the message in the quran properly then they cannot understand any explanation no matter how detailed it is.
                            Irrelevant very long post. Please answer question at post #2 .

                            Originally posted by Mughal1 View Post
                            Moreover how can you use a secondary source to interpret the main source if secondary source itself depends upon main source for its qualification? This is why the quran alone has to be foundation of deen of islam. However once we have derived the structure of deen of islam from the quran alone there after we can use all other sources to fill in detailed where need be.
                            Irrelevant post. Please answer question at post #2 .

                            Originally posted by Mughal1 View Post
                            Furthermore mullahs have misinterpreted the quran by telling us it is a complete code of life instead of telling us we need to extract framework of deen of islam from the quran to form a complete code of life to live by. The quran does not give us a fully worked out constitution and laws for organising human society and regulating it. This is why we do not have ummah as the prophet left behind after its formation on basis of the quran alone. Unless we go back to the quran alone as foundation of deen of islam there is not going to be any ummah in future either.

                            regards and all the best.
                            Irrelevant post. Please answer question at post #2 .
                            Never explain urself to any1 The person who likes u doesn't need it &The person who dislike u won't believe it

                            Comment

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