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    Ghadeer khum sermon and Ummah divide

    Shia believe that this sermon was an order form holy prophet to make Hazrat Ali(r.a.) his successor while Sunnis believe that the sermon was an advice from holy prophet that Muslims should respect and regard his family after him.
    As we know both sunni and shia exaggerate on the karbala account and related events, do we have some logical/scientific research done by some non-muslims?
    Presently, maulana zubair, maulana Ishaq and engineer mohammad ali mirza are among very few scholars who are neutral and had audience but still many things are unadressed from the perspective of shia school of thought. like authenticity and correctnesss of history shia and sunni believes.
    While mualana ishaq is very open to criticism of sahaba for their wrong doings, he also ask shia people that if Ghadeer e khum was to tell ummah to make hazrat Ali(a.r.) caliph, why it was not mentioned in khutba hajjatul wida from which holy prophet was returning.
    If we consider shia argument as they persist that ghadeer khum khutba was only for Hazrat Ali's caliphate then how to digest its implications. first one is holy prophet was not sure that whole ummah would take it as his order at hajjat ul wida hence he said it to a small audience at ghadeer e khum?
    Last edited by ajazali; Sep 26, 2017, 01:36 PM.
    Turn the table...
    Sun to sahi jahan main hai tera fasana kya.

    #2
    Re: Ghadeer khum sermon and Ummah divide

    It is tragic that the prophet SAW family was treated so horribly by muslims, how can we say that Hadrat Ali and Hadrat Fatima RA did not understand the hadith correctly. In the least Prophets family should have been shown respect, their claim to inheritance was denied and even Hadrat Khadijas property was not given to them, there are strong claims that Hadrat Fatima was hurt in the scuffle and probably her early death was a result of it. Also history claims that it was mandated for decades to abuse prophets family at Friday sermons. But this is all in the past and noone can bring back time and muslims should stop fighting and please stop genocide of Shias. It is tragic that Hadrat Ali buried Hadrat Fatima secretly as he was afraid muslims will disrespect her grave.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Ghadeer khum sermon and Ummah divide

      Originally posted by Bobby1 View Post
      It is tragic that the prophet SAW family was treated so horribly by muslims, how can we say that Hadrat Ali and Hadrat Fatima RA did not understand the hadith correctly. In the least Prophets family should have been shown respect, their claim to inheritance was denied and even Hadrat Khadijas property was not given to them, there are strong claims that Hadrat Fatima was hurt in the scuffle and probably her early death was a result of it. Also history claims that it was mandated for decades to abuse prophets family at Friday sermons. But this is all in the past and noone can bring back time and muslims should stop fighting and please stop genocide of Shias. It is tragic that Hadrat Ali buried Hadrat Fatima secretly as he was afraid muslims will disrespect her grave.
      Muslim cant be united or cant even live in peace unless Ulema stop exaggerating these events.
      Bold is undisputed and truth unfortunately. But then there are accounts of history in shia books that suggest hazrat Ali(r.a.) praised hazrat umar(r.a.) as a great leader after his death. Wonder what to do with shia claim that hazrat umar(r.a.) killed hazrat fatima (r.a.)
      Turn the table...
      Sun to sahi jahan main hai tera fasana kya.

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Ghadeer khum sermon and Ummah divide

        Maazi kay yazeedi ko wajood e Hussain bardasht nahi tha... aur ajj kay yazeedion ko zikr e hussain bardasht nahi.... dob maro... jo jannat kay sardar hain unsay bughz rakhna chor do...

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Ghadeer khum sermon and Ummah divide

          ... a small audience at ghadeer e khum?...
          Was not a small audience

          The sermon was given after hajj and many had gathered to listen as Bilal had announced it that Prophet have to give a sermon , aside from the large group of hajjis who had also went for hajj with him

          And I don't think the last Prophet would be unsure about anything as this doesn't seems right to me at least

          Respect of the holy place and avoiding bloodshed on the holy place was also the same reason when his grandson change his pathway from mecca to kufa.

          And yeah Prophet had many hypocrites in his time too

          Interesting @ the timing of this thread

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Ghadeer khum sermon and Ummah divide

            Originally posted by batameez View Post
            Was not a small audience

            The sermon was given after hajj and many had gathered to listen as Bilal had announced it that Prophet have to give a sermon , aside from the large group of hajjis who had also went for hajj with him

            And I don't think the last Prophet would be unsure about anything as this doesn't seems right to me at least

            Respect of the holy place and avoiding bloodshed on the holy place was also the same reason when his grandson change his pathway from mecca to kufa.

            And yeah Prophet had many hypocrites in his time too

            Interesting @ the timing of this thread
            So holy prophet was sure that his companions and majority at hajjat ul wida will not accept his order of making Ali(r.a.) his successor?
            what was the number of people at ghadeer e khum?
            for interesting timing, if you want to go there then let me know why we see so much iman only in these 10 days. why not whole year. If you know ground realities, let me know how many public gatherings are held during rest of an year?
            And how many of them are related to ahl e bayt and how many for addressing other topics in Islam say seerat ul nabi(s.a.w) for example?
            Last edited by ajazali; Sep 26, 2017, 02:12 PM.
            Turn the table...
            Sun to sahi jahan main hai tera fasana kya.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Ghadeer khum sermon and Ummah divide

              I read on FB post that both Hasan & Hussain used to get wazifa from Muawya?

              Mehmood Ali Abbassi's controversial book - Khilafat-e-Yazid O Muwaia gives a different perspective.


              And why Quran surprisingly did not give any procedure for electing rulers and succession? As it goes into details of other smaller issues?

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Ghadeer khum sermon and Ummah divide

                Originally posted by ajazali View Post
                Muslim cant be united or cant even live in peace unless Ulema stop exaggerating these events.
                Bold is undisputed and truth unfortunately. But then there are accounts of history in shia books that suggest hazrat Ali(r.a.) praised hazrat umar(r.a.) as a great leader after his death. Wonder what to do with shia claim that hazrat umar(r.a.) killed hazrat fatima (r.a.)
                There are Hadith in Sahi Bukhari about the happenings at Hadrat fatimas RA house and that is not Shia ulemas, I think I will respect sensibilities and wont go into more details and you can search it if you don't know already. I had researched this topic very intently. The fact that Hadrat Ali RA had to hide her grave tells you about the state of affairs. I am not sure if we delve into it anything good can come out of it. People should live and let live. I am convinced that Ahle Bayat were treated very brutally and against clear guidance from Prophet SAW and maybe this is the reason for all the sufferings. Hadrat Fatima RA died very young so that lends weight to the argument of unnatural causes also together with secret burial.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Ghadeer khum sermon and Ummah divide

                  Originally posted by Bobby1 View Post
                  There are Hadith in Sahi Bukhari about the happenings at Hadrat fatimas RA house and that is not Shia ulemas, I think I will respect sensibilities and wont go into more details and you can search it if you don't know already. I had researched this topic very intently. The fact that Hadrat Ali RA had to hide her grave tells you about the state of affairs. I am not sure if we delve into it anything good can come out of it. People should live and let live. I am convinced that Ahle Bayat were treated very brutally and against clear guidance from Prophet SAW and maybe this is the reason for all the sufferings. Hadrat Fatima RA died very young so that lends weight to the argument of unnatural causes also together with secret burial.
                  so havnt heard any shia alim? want to see some youtube videos?
                  Turn the table...
                  Sun to sahi jahan main hai tera fasana kya.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Ghadeer khum sermon and Ummah divide

                    Originally posted by Mostar95 View Post
                    I read on FB post that both Hasan & Hussain used to get wazifa from Muawya?

                    Mehmood Ali Abbassi's controversial book - Khilafat-e-Yazid O Muwaia gives a different perspective.


                    And why Quran surprisingly did not give any procedure for electing rulers and succession? As it goes into details of other smaller issues?
                    We know famous ayah 13:11. "Verily, God does not change the state of a People until they change themselves."
                    on governance, Quran emphasis that owner of sovereignty is Allah.
                    Turn the table...
                    Sun to sahi jahan main hai tera fasana kya.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Ghadeer khum sermon and Ummah divide

                      Originally posted by ajazali View Post
                      Shia believe that this sermon was an order form holy prophet to make Hazrat Ali(r.a.) his successor while Sunnis believe that the sermon was an advice from holy prophet that Muslims should respect and regard his family after him.
                      Whatever may be the interpretation, followers failed to respect this message leading to various incidents of atrocities towards family of the Prophet.

                      As we know both sunni and shia exaggerate on the karbala account and related events, do we have some logical/scientific research done by some non-muslims?
                      Why are you looking for non-Muslim scholars? Will you accept what Lesley Hazleton wrote in 'After the Prophet'? The issue with Muslim history is that it was written at least a century after Prophet's death and western scholars also have to rely on such sources.

                      Presently, maulana zubair, maulana Ishaq and engineer mohammad ali mirza are among very few scholars who are neutral and had audience but still many things are unadressed from the perspective of shia school of thought. like authenticity and correctnesss of history shia and sunni believes.
                      Don't know what do you mean by 'unaddressed by Shia school of thought'? But I believe they have more material on succession matter than Sunni Muslims. Even Maududi's 'Khilafat o Mamlookiyat' is more acknowledged in Shia factions than in Sunni scholars.



                      While mualana ishaq is very open to criticism of sahaba for their wrong doings, he also ask shia people that if Ghadeer e khum was to tell ummah to make hazrat Ali(a.r.) caliph, why it was not mentioned in khutba hajjatul wida from which holy prophet was returning.
                      If we consider shia argument as they persist that ghadeer khum khutba was only for Hazrat Ali's caliphate then how to digest its implications. first one is holy prophet was not sure that whole ummah would take it as his order at hajjat ul wida hence he said it to a small audience at ghadeer e khum?
                      May be its not about the size of audience, it is more about representative audience. Who were the audience at Ghadeer e Khum? Were all the three caliphs who preceded Hazart Ali present there?. If they heard the sermon at Ghadeer, then I believe the message was conveyed to the representatives. The incidents just after prophet's death like power struggle at Bani Saqaf said there were some motives for not getting issue of succession clarified from the Prophet, when it was time to do so.
                      We should care for each other more than we care for ideas, or else we will end up killing each other.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Ghadeer khum sermon and Ummah divide










                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Ghadeer khum sermon and Ummah divide

                          Originally posted by muqawwee123 View Post
                          Whatever may be the interpretation, followers failed to respect this message leading to various incidents of atrocities towards family of the Prophet.
                          No denying, infact blame game aginst hazrat Ali r.a. started even before the departue of holy prophet. Sunnis claim that is the reason holy prophet gathered people at ghadeer e khum to advise them to not to go against his family.

                          Why are you looking for non-Muslim scholars? Will you accept what Lesley Hazleton wrote in 'After the Prophet'? The issue with Muslim history is that it was written at least a century after Prophet's death and western scholars also have to rely on such sources.
                          Reason is simple. in addition to other points in this post, shia people do give references from sunni ahadih selectively but they dont approve other ahadith even if a hadith pass the strict criteria set by imam bukhari. Instead, they dont even tell their audience what is postitive written about hazrat umar(r.a.) and hazrat ameer muawia(r.a.) in their own books like nehjal balagha or alkafi.

                          Don't know what do you mean by 'unaddressed by Shia school of thought'? But I believe they have more material on succession matter than Sunni Muslims. Even Maududi's 'Khilafat o Mamlookiyat' is more acknowledged in Shia factions than in Sunni scholars.
                          You wont see a sunni saying that war of camel didnt take place, they do acknowledge the ahadith in muslim sharif regarding hazrat umar r.a. approach house of hazrat fatima r.a. but what they say is, it not upto us to decide. I personally not sure what to do here.
                          I know shia children are taught logic from day one, but that is for defending shia version which is based on emotions just like sunnis hate to see their version being questioned. my experience is shia loose patience while debating.
                          People with moderate view point like maulana maududi are declared munafiq by shia and rafidi by sunnis. Shia demand claiming why maududi did not "abused" sahaba while knowing and writing about their wrong doings. Same is true for many sunnis as they would hate to listen anything against sahaba.

                          going by what is written in the history, mistakes of hazrat usman(r.a.) are mentioned so is about hazrat ali(r.a.). Its not my belief but would it not make better case of malookiat if holy prophet had asked ummah to make hazrat ali(r.a.) leader and he would do mistakes like not doing justice for murderer of hazrat usman (r.a.), as history also say murderers of hazrat usman joined hazrat ali's army? an account written in nehjal balagha suggests the same.


                          May be its not about the size of audience, it is more about representative audience. Who were the audience at Ghadeer e Khum? Were all the three caliphs who preceded Hazart Ali present there?. If they heard the sermon at Ghadeer, then I believe the message was conveyed to the representatives. The incidents just after prophet's death like power struggle at Bani Saqaf said there were some motives for not getting issue of succession clarified from the Prophet, when it was time to do so.
                          all the representatives were not there atleast hadith does not mention the names of prominent sahabas, neither the sources approved by shia nor by sunnis. One poster here said hazrat bilal(r.a.) announced that holy prophet would give that sermon while another popular shia version is holy prophet stopped at ghadeer khum then he sent for all people who have been ahead in the way, to come back and waited until all pilgrims who fell behind, arrived and gathered.
                          but question remain why majority didnt deserve to take this important sermon.
                          Last edited by ajazali; Sep 29, 2017, 09:22 AM.
                          Turn the table...
                          Sun to sahi jahan main hai tera fasana kya.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Ghadeer khum sermon and Ummah divide

                            It was really a very significant sermon and was preceded by Quranic revelation also, if the sermon was to just say to respect Ahle Bayat it wouldnt have a Quranic verse preceding it . Most of our arguments seem really weak in trying to misinterpret the event at Ghadeer.

                            Hadrat Ali was the legal and rightful Caliph and Hadrat Muawiyyah standing up against him and not obeying his direct orders and raising an army against him was treason. It really is obvious that excuses were made for retaining power and wealth. As a Caliph hadrat Ali had the authority to decide what action to take against the killers and when.

                            Can we take up arms against our govt if it is doing anything we dont like. hadrat Muawiya was the son of Abu Sufyan and Hind and his family was amongst the worst enemies of Prophet until the conquest of Mecca, they became muslims only after being defeated in war and lost their power. Lets use common sense for a bit and think, you are an enemy trying to kill islam and all of a sudden you are defeated and you have a total change of heart.

                            Also hadith is a hadith so you cant say about events at Hadrat Fatimas house to be selective. Most of the evidence is that Bukhari Hadith about use of force at hadrat Fatimas house were correct. Hadrat Ali was also upset that he was the only one worrying about the funeral of prophet and Muslim leaders rather than participate in funeral were discussing who takes power. Do you know if Hadrat Umer or hadrat Abu Bakkar were even involved in the burial?

                            I also feel that denying Hadrat Fatima the property was unjust, if she had no claim to the property she would know. Dont you think?


                            The other side of the coin is that without Hadrat Muawiyya Islam would not have spread the way it did, he had great political acumen, he was great military leader also.

                            Yazid decreeing that prophets SAW family be cursed at every mosque on friday sermons is a clear indication that the family had embraced Islam for their benefit.

                            Islam was complete after prophet passed away and these are all political events and we cant change history. We teach our children to hate at our mosques, madrassas and our homes and people being raised in hate and glorifying violence and killings only can mean destruction and devastation.

                            Shias have right to believe what they believe and so do sunnis and shouldnt be cause for bloodshed.

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                              #15
                              Re: Ghadeer khum sermon and Ummah divide

                              ^importance does not automatically implies the succession. and why do you think verse could not have been revealed for ahl e bayt?
                              One thing I want to ask [MENTION=277525]Bobby1[/MENTION]
                              why do shia celebrate ghadeer e khum day as biggest day?
                              Last edited by ajazali; Sep 29, 2017, 09:41 AM.
                              Turn the table...
                              Sun to sahi jahan main hai tera fasana kya.

                              Comment

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