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ISLAM AND INTELLECT: REPLY TO HAFEEZ123

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    ISLAM AND INTELLECT: REPLY TO HAFEEZ123

    Introduction
    The Islamic Belief and subsequently the Islamic way of life is premised on an intellectual basis. Therefore, Islam is neither a religion nor a set of values and rituals that arise from Blind Faith. Rather, Islam is an intellectual belief from which emanates a comprehensive socio-political and economic system. To understand the unique system that Islam offers necessitates the explanation of the Islamic belief i.e. the belief in God, Allah (swt) in Arabic, and the Word of God, the Qur'an.

    Arguments For & Against God

    Today if you mention God then you'll probably get a negative reaction. It has become a trend to get on with life and not to bother to ask the question whether there is a God or not. In fact this question was not even asked much in the days of old, when you simply had to believe in God or be persecuted. Therefore it is not surprising that people find it easy to believe that the existence of God is a myth, simply because they have never thought deeply about the idea.

    It is because people continued to believe in God blindly, i.e. Blind Faith, rather than use ration, that science and its attempted explanations of universal phenomena was hailed as the 'new God'.

    But let us deal with both arguments - for and against the existence of a Creator - from a rational perspective. A common argument by many Christians and some other religions is that God is the God of many abstract attributes such as Love, Peace, Mercy which indeed are admirable qualities for human beings to aspire to. This characterisation of God is based on an implicit assumption that God can be likened to human beings thus the attempt to understand God in a human framework. Accordingly, we find in some societies, such as early Greek, that individual gods were used to represent single human attributes, and in other cultures gods have the quality to reproduce.

    The question this begs is whether the essence of an unlimited Creator is understandable through a limited, imperfect human mind when God lies beyond our perception? Rational thought would dictate that is God exists then knowledge of God's attributes can only come from Itself. Therefore, famine in the world leading to the deaths of millions would not deny the Justice, Mercy or Love of a supposed God as the Governor and Controller of the universe then the notion of God dying is nonsensical. This is the failure of Christianity and indeed all religions as their belief becomes a matter of Blind Faith. Consequently, they allow themselves to be plagued by rational contradictions which inevitably lead to intellectual refutation.

    With regard to the opposing view proposed by scientific theories to disprove the existence of God. Are these arguments valid? To understand the validity of any proposed argument the premise should be examined. Science is concerned with the methodology of processes in the physical world i.e. it deals with 'how' and not 'why'. Thus scientists are not concerned with why gravity exists but how gravity influences bodies to shape the universe.

    The scientific method is limited in that it can only deduce rules by repeated observation of physical phenomena. This question of the existence of God does not and cannot fall into the realm of scientific thought because science deals with the mechanisms of events and phenomena within the universe, i.e. the tangible and not the intangible. To test the hypothesis to apply scientific proof for or against God, one would effectively have said that God is 'testable'. Therefore, logically one would conclude God to be within the universe since God must be physically tangible and contained within the universe. God must be limited and therefore cannot be God.

    Thus scientists are falling into the same trap as the blind followers of religion, that is they are implicitly defining a role to God as the 'one who makes things work'. Since scientists have explained how things work the question of God does not arise. Those who argue from this angle have falsely assumed an attribute/essence of God in the same way Christians say God has a son or is Love. To prove or disprove the existence of a Creator we need to go beyond the limitations of the scientific method and proceed rationally for it is only rational thought which has the ability to deal with an issue like this.

    The Rational Thought

    Man progresses as a result of his thoughts concerning everything around him. thoughts are what distinguish man from other animals and without them man would be lost. Thought occurs when man receives information about something through his five senses. He then distinguishes it by linking it to previous information and experiences he has encountered. For example, a person comes across a plant. He knows that it is a plant due to his previous knowledge of what a plant looks like. But only when he links it with previous information on the various types of plants will he be able to tell if it is edible or poisonous.

    Hence, just receiving information is not enough. It will only remain as information that we cannot appreciate or understand. However, the process of linking it to previous information and distinguishing the information is the process of thought and the key of understanding and progressing.
    Consequently, when a man becomes convinced of the correctness of a thought, it becomes the concept which he carries, thus, affecting his behavior. For example, if we carry the concept of dislike of someone, it will affect our behavior towards that person. So we see that carrying false ideas has serious implications for a person and if such false ideas are carried widely it has serious implications for society.

    Thus the idea and question of God has serious implications because the answer obtained becomes the very basis by which we understand the creation and purpose of man, life and universe.

    Therefore, the method used should not only be the rational thought but the comprehensive and agree with reality. Anything hypothetical or emotional should be rejected since their basis disagrees with ration and reality.

    The Rational Proof of God

    When we look around us at everything we can sense one factor is shared by these things, and that is that they are all limited. by limited we mean that they have restrictions, a starting point and an ending point, and they have definable attributes i.e. they are all finite.
    Man is born and he dies. there is no-one alive who will not die. During his life span, he will grow to a certain height, weight and volume.

    The universe is defined as all the celestial planets. All these objects have certain mass, shape, volume and so on. The life span of a star may be very long, but a point in time will come when it will cease to exist.
    The universe is large, but still a finite space. No scientist could ever prove using hard facts that the universe has no bounds. In fact when we say that the universe arose from the Big Bang and expanding they inherently admit it is finite in size, otherwise it could not expand!

    There is nothing in reality which is unlimited. No matter how hard we try, man is unable to find anything unlimited around him. All he can perceive is the finite and limited.

    A further attribute of everything around us is that they are all needy and dependent in order to continue existing. They are not self-sustaining or independent. Man has needs. He has to satisfy in order to survive. He has organic needs. Man must eat and drink if he is to survive. If he does not he will die. We see the need and dependency in plants and animals. They depend on other parts of the food chain for their existence. The water cycle is dependent on the sun, which is dependent on the laws of the galaxies and of burning mass, and so on... Nothing man can perceive is self-subsistent. So things exist, but do not have the power of existence. They cannot control when they die or when other bodies die.

    There is one fact that emerges from all this. If something is limited and finite, and does not have the power to be self-subsistent then it must have been created.
    Applying this to everything we see will bring us to a conclusion. If everything in the universe is created because it has not the power of being in existence on its own, and I finite and limited, then there must be a Creator. This Creator by contrast has to be unlimited and not needy and dependent on anything to bring It into, or sustain It's existence.

    The universe; the sum of finite and dependent objects is finite and dependent - but dependent on what? Dependent on something to start and sustain life, something to plan and develop life.
    The only rational and intellectual solution to the question of creation is that there is a Creator that has accounted for all that we see and perceive. Ration tells us that nothing can be created without a creator. Ultimately, there must be a Creator who is unlimited in every aspect.

    Some scientists challenge this with a theory that everything depends on something for existence, which in turn depends on something for existence, and so on ad infinitum. This theory is irrational as it doe not explain how anything came into existence in the first place. It uses the idea of infinity which we know does not exist in reality. It does not, or even attempt, to explain the very first step in sequence. It is illogical and incomplete in its theory, and far from being scientific. If at its basis the theory is weak, how is it possible to trust the proceeding theoretical argument for the creation of the universe?

    Conclusion
    Hence, looking at any planet in the universe, contemplating on any phase of life, or comprehending any aspect of man provides a conclusive evidence for the existence of a Creator, what Muslims call Allah (swt).

    This intellectual proof of the existence of Allah (swt) is an understanding open for everyone and obligatory for all Muslims to be convinced of. Each person must explore to the limit of his understanding.

    Blind Belief has no place in Islam.
    Believing through distinctive emotions is unreliable and dangerous as emotions can change and add error to ones belief and actions. And if the basis of the belief is irrational and weak, how can a system of life be built upon it.

    I THINK THIS REFUTES THE CLAIMS THAT BELIEF IN ISLAM IS BLIND

    SALAAM

    #2
    Excellent!!! Khalifah ->

    Comment


      #3
      I think you miss the point.
      Even if there was a single creative force which you dont prove.

      I see no evidence that that creative force is the single creative force in the bible Koran or Talmud.

      In fact the oppersite looking logically all three books look like the work of man without divine authorship.

      if a person is brought up in islam or at a single point in is life converts to islam.

      and through useing his or her intelect disides that it is a false and harmful religion.

      and stands up in public in a islamic state and says to the world this is false they will be killed .

      so you can use your intellect if you continue agreeing with me, but if you stop agreeing our god tells us to stone you .

      youve also got to take into account that in every islamic country there is censorship of other religions.
      so these poor souls who have joined ,didnt get the chance to make a fair choice in the first place .

      and I would still like to know where my thread about the massacres and rape of christians during the khilafa went :0)

      Comment


        #4
        Asaam ali kum or if ur a kuf alikum


        [QUOTE]Originally posted by jonny2mad:
        [B]I think you miss the point.
        Even if there was a single creative force which you dont prove.

        CLUBER REPLYS
        For guy who thinks he is an intellectaul i think ur missing the point.the point was you have just been proven that there is a god.


        JHONY SAYS.
        I see no evidence that that creative force is the single creative force in the bible Koran or Talmud.

        CLUBER REPLYS
        Your right to some extent there is no evidence in the bible i mean think about it was writen 40 years affter jesus.its been changed over millions of times & its pretty much the same with the Talmud.
        But as for the Quraan it go,s bit like this.

        It follows that since the Creator, Allah (swt) has created man, life and the universe, there must have been a purpose for the creation and a means, i.e. systems, by which to achieve it.

        The obvious questions that proceed are:

        How does man receive the purpose, rules and regulations, given by the Creator, by which he is to govern and understand his life?

        In what form are these rules and regulations received by man?

        Clearly, either man communicates with the Creator or that the Creator communicates with us to explain our existence. Man, however, is limited and unable to comprehend or perceive the unlimited and as such cannot communicate with the Creator. This obvious fact therefore, means that the communication had to come from the Creator.

        Throughout history, there have been messengers and prophets, men sent from the Creator, bringing laws or revelation on how man should conduct his life. They were given miracles which proved to mankind that they were bringing revelation. A miracle is something which goes against the laws of nature. For example prophet Musa (Moses) had a stick which parted the Red Sea. Prophet Isa (Jesus) had the ability to cure the sick by just touching them.

        But how do we know if these messengers existed? The miracles performed by the above prophets were only miracles for that specific period of time. But how do we know that they were not just legends or fables? They are not proof for us. So what miracle do we have right now to convince us and guide us through our lives?

        There are many texts available today claiming divine status from God. But is the guidance contained in them in its original form and is it applicable to all situations at all times? Any text claiming to be divine must not contain contradictions, discrepancies or adulterations, since this would question the perfection of God and the validity of the text.

        If we apply this acid test to these ‘divine texts’, we find that non except the Qur’an fulfill the above criteria. Many religions contain aspects of the same truth (since messengers have come to teach each nation) but this truth has been tampered with by man.

        Muslims believe that the Qur’an is the Word of God. They believe it is complete, i.e. it provides answers for all of life’s affairs and it has kept its authenticity. i.e. nothing has been removed or added to it by any man since it was revealed, but as we could not believe in the Creator, God (Allah [swt]), until we became intellectually convinced, similarly the ‘divine’ message must be examined and proved. There needs to exist a rational proof for the validity of the text, not a blind emotional argument.

        The Qur’an was revealed to Muhammad (saw - may be peace and blessings of Allah [swt] be upon him and his family). At the time it was revealed, the pagan Arabs were deeply into poetry. It was an indication of nobility in society. People used to go to the desert for days just to write poetry. The Arabic language has great fluidity and depth of expression, so it was held high in esteem by the Arabs.

        So we need to consider the authorship of the Qur’an. The Qur’an can only the work of the following:

        Non-Arab

        Arab

        Muhammad (saw)

        The Creator, Allah (swt)

        Firstly, it is important to point out here that the Qur’an was revealed in Arabic. Because of the high standard of the Arabic used by the Qur’an, indeed its very excellence and mastery of the language, it is not from a non-Arab. It is well known that, a non-Arab aged 16 called Jabr was charged with conspiring with Muhammad (saw) in writing the Qur’an, but Allah (swt) replied to these allegations:

        "And we know well that they say: only a man teaches him. The speech of him at whom they falsely hint is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear." [T.M.Q 16:103]

        Now one would turn to the Arabs for the authorship of the Qur’an, having dismissed the theory that a non-Arab could have written it as being ridiculous. One of the disbelieving Arab poets of the time, Walid ibn Al-Mughira said after hearing the Qur’an, "None of you is more conversant than I with poetry, melodious hymns and songs, and by God never did I hear anything similar to which he says. It is so sweet and so graceful that it remains at the summit with nothing to surpass it."

        People who disbelieved the divine authenticity were sent revelation challenging them to bring forth any similar writing:

        "...They may say, ‘He forged it.’ Say, ‘Bring ye then ten surahs (chapters) forged, like unto it, and call (to your aid) whomsoever ye can other than God! If ye speak the truth.’ [T.M.Q 11:13]

        And when the Arabs failed to meet this, they were challenged once more.

        "And if ye are in doubt as to what we have revealed from time to time to our servant, then produce a chapter like there unto call to your witnesses or helpers (if there are any) besides God, if your doubts are true." [T.M.Q 2:23]

        They tried to bring the like of the Qur’an but they failed. And this challenge has remained until this day for everyone, both Muslim and non-Muslim and both the Arab and the non-Arab. Clearly, it is not the speech of an Arab, let alone non-Arab.

        The Qur’anic challenge is unique because the Creator, Allah (swt), pushes man to use his ability to undermine the authenticity of the Qur’an. Such a profound yet simple challenge. Imagine throughout the history of Islam, all her enemies needed to defeat this challenge to destroy the whole basis of Islam. Yet not one, non-Muslim Arab or non-Arab has been able to do this even though all the tools of the Arabic language are at their disposal.

        It is also inconceivable that the Qur’an is the speech of Muhammad (saw). After all he is one of the Arabs. Also, whatever level of genius people may assign to him, he is still a human being and one of his tribe and nation. Since the Arabs failed to bring the like of the Qur’an, this equally applies to Muhammad (saw). He could not bring the like of it, thus it is not from him. It is important to point out that none of the Arabs, who despised Muhammad (saw), particularly at that time, that were the most acquainted with the styles of Arabic speech ever claimed that the Qur’an was Muhammad’s (saw) speech, or even similar to his speech. Moreover, it is clearly documented that Muhammad (saw) was illiterate i.e. he could not read not write. Infact illiteracy is a proof in itself.

        Also the traditions (ahadith) of Muhammad (saw) are completely unlike the linguistic style of the Qur’an. This is the case even though Muhammad (saw) would utter the revealed Qur’anic verse and say the tradition at one sitting. How could a man maintain a completely different style for 23 years? Strangely, people could copy the style of his traditions but not that of the Qur’an! We have established that the Qur’an could not have originated from a non-Arab, Arab or Muhammad (saw). This leaves us with the only real source, the Creator, Allah (swt). He (swt) says:

        "Do they not ponder about the Qur’an? If it had not come from God they would surely have found therein much contradictions." [T.M.Q:82]

        To this day Muslim and non-Muslim scholars have not been able to find any contradiction or mistake in the Qur’an. Moreover, if one was to compare letter by letter a copy of the Qur’an published today to one of the first copies of the Qur’an available then one would find that not a single letter has been omitted or added. Copies of the Qur’an dating back to the first century of Islam can be found in Istanbul and Tashkent.

        Furthermore, the Meaning of the Qur’an has become a proof in that it foretold events, and explained issues which man had yet to discover. For example, the science of embryology is merely 30 years old. Certainly, 1400 years ago, where there were no microscopes, let alone ultrasound. Yet the Qur’an goes into depth about how life starts, the pairing of gametes, the dividing of cells, the forming of the three body layers, and the development of organs.

        Thus it is clear that the basis of Islam, the Quran, could only have come from the one who created language in order to produce a book that surpasses the language of any human. And from the one who created science in order to put in the Quran knowledge that no human knew of, only until recently. Therefore, the Quran can only have come from the Creator, Allah (swt).


        JHONY SAYS
        if a person is brought up in islam or at a single point in is life converts to islam.
        and through useing his or her intelect disides that it is a false and harmful religion.
        and stands up in public in a islamic state and says to the world this is false they will be killed .
        so you can use your intellect if you continue agreeing with me, but if you stop agreeing our god tells us to kill.

        CULBERS REPLY
        b4 u bcome a muslim you will know the condtions of being a muslim in another words you must be sure that islam is 100% truth.and if affter that u deside that u whant to leave islam then u will not be useing ur intellect in a inlightent manner.
        cuz all u will be asking for is death.and if thats the punishment by allah[swt] then thats what u deserve .b cuz we all know that the one who created us is the one who dicides what is good or bad,right from wrong.i mean think about it we all know that the human mind is limtted so how can humans decide what is right & wrong good from bad e.t.c

        jhony says
        youve also got to take into account that in every islamic country there is censorship of other religions.


        CUBER REPLY
        FIRST of all today there is no islamic state as u claim. secondly when there was an islamic state it perferctly well allowed other relligons to practice there own beliefs.

        jhony says
        so these poor souls who have joined ,didnt get the chance to make a fair choice in the first place.

        cluber replys
        If u could kindly elaboarte on this then may be i will answer.

        ------------------
        e.i

        [This message has been edited by clubber lang (edited August 08, 2002).]

        [This message has been edited by clubber lang (edited August 08, 2002).]

        Comment


          #5


          wha
          SALAAM[/b][/QUOTE]



          [This message has been edited by clubber lang (edited August 08, 2002).]

          Comment


            #6
            Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

            i am tryning to te get jhonys Qotes in darcker biger text and leav mine as normal but i dont know how

            [This message has been edited by clubber lang (edited August 08, 2002).]

            Comment


              #7
              jhony i know ur on the net so i ask if u whant a debate regarding this thread lets go to digi chat

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by jonny2mad:
                [Band I would still like to know where my thread about the massacres and rape of christians during the khilafa went :0)[/B]
                probably sitting with the thread that talks about massacres and rapes of muslims by crusaders, and not only muslims, of anyone else along the way..

                The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist. And like that... he is gone.

                Comment


                  #9
                  :0) IM not going to defend the behaviour of crusaders because IM not in denial like a lot of Muslims are about they're ancestors.

                  IM sorry I didn't see this thread earlier in the day because although IM online a lot during the day I should be working:0(

                  How they dont get to make a fair choice is,
                  a Muslim who has been brought up in Islam has only really heard Islam's point of view.

                  And if he or she were to choose not to accept Islam they would have to accept second class status under the law.

                  and I cant think of another mainstream religion that kills you if you want to leave

                  I really think you should read something about the moonies,the Jim Jones temple David korresh and the aum shinrikyo

                  http://www.freedomofmind.com/book/bk_2.asp

                  And as for the challenge put out to disprove the Koran who would judge whether my chapter compared to the original.

                  And what would happen to any Muslims who read it and thought the Koran was false could they leave then.

                  And most likely the author of any such chapter if successful would be killed so it doesn't sound much of a challenge.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by jonny2mad:
                    :0) IM not going to defend the behaviour of crusaders because IM not in denial like a lot of Muslims are about they're ancestors.

                    How they dont get to make a fair choice is,
                    a Muslim who has been brought up in Islam has only really heard Islam's point of view.

                    And if he or she were to choose not to accept Islam they would have to accept second class status under the law.

                    and I cant think of another mainstream religion that kills you if you want to leave

                    I really think you should read something about the moonies,the Jim Jones temple David korresh and the aum shinrikyo


                    And as for the challenge put out to disprove the Koran who would judge whether my chapter compared to the original.

                    With out a doubt i would be the first to leave islam if Jhony or anyone else in the world can prove the Qruaan wrong.
                    but at same anything u say i have questionend it and been through so il tell u know that you well never be able to prove the qruaan wrong. but if you insiset on trying then i guess the the first thing you need to do is learn and understand the arabic languge in foo so haa.

                    And what would happen to any Muslims who read it and thought the Koran was false could they leave then.

                    And most likely the author of any such chapter if successful would be killed so it doesn't sound much of a challenge.

                    Comment


                      #11

                      JHONY SAYS
                      And as for the challenge put out to disprove the Koran who would judge whether my chapter compared to the originaL.
                      And what would happen to any Muslims who read it and thought the Koran was false could they leave then.

                      And most likely the author of any such chapter if successful would be killed so it doesn't
                      CLUBER REPLYS
                      With out a doubt i would be the first to leave islam if Jhony or anyone else in the world can prove the Qruaan wrong.
                      but at same anything u say i have quetionend it and been through so il tell u know that you well never be able to prove the qruaan wrong. but if you insiset on trying then i guess the the first thing you need to do is learn the arabic languge in foo soo haa.
                      SORRY GUYS GETIN LATE FOR JUMMA[ B R B]

                      [This message has been edited by clubber lang (edited August 09, 2002).]

                      [This message has been edited by clubber lang (edited August 09, 2002).]

                      Comment


                        #12
                        .

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Is this case over?

                          Looks like it. All praise is to Allah who gave us the intellect in order to understand the reality

                          Comment


                            #14
                            people have a inbuilt desire to believe in the supernatural.

                            and depending on where you live and what time you live you will believe something different .

                            why if there was a single creative force would it need to contact us at all.

                            and saying that its true because no ones written a chapter of poetry in arabic to the standard of 1500 years ago .

                            or that there are some very cryptic references to future events or scientific discoverys doesnt prove a devine author.

                            every other religion claims the same thing

                            everything that you say about how people felt about mohammed or the koran at the time the koran was written you are taking on trust.

                            read about how religous leaders operate .
                            people are setting up religions today with the same mind control techniques that mohammed practiced .

                            The same techniques that were practiced by other religous leaders of other religions before him .

                            and one thing else clubber lange you cant leave islam even if you wanted to because you would be killed .even if someone wrote this chapter of the koran and you read it and they would be killed for showing it to you .

                            and even if arabs at the time of mohammed had read the koran and writen chapters that would have passed this test .

                            no one would have heard from them because they would have been killed .

                            if the koran was written by god not by mohammed why would he need to do this .

                            http://main.faithfreedom.org/



                            [This message has been edited by jonny2mad (edited August 10, 2002).]

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by jonny2mad:
                              people have a inbuilt desire to believe in the supernatural.

                              and depending on where you live and what time you live you will believe something different .

                              why if there was a single creative force would it need to contact us at all.

                              and saying that its true because no ones written a chapter of poetry in arabic to the standard of 1500 years ago .

                              or that there are some very cryptic references to future events or scientific discoverys doesnt prove a devine author.

                              every other religion claims the same thing

                              everything that you say about how people felt about mohammed or the koran at the time the koran was written you are taking on trust.

                              read about how religous leaders operate .
                              people are setting up religions today with the same mind control techniques that mohammed practiced .

                              The same techniques that were practiced by other religous leaders of other religions before him .

                              and one thing else clubber lange you cant leave islam even if you wanted to because you would be killed .even if someone wrote this chapter of the koran and you read it and they would be killed for showing it to you .

                              and even if arabs at the time of mohammed had read the koran and writen chapters that would have passed this test .

                              no one would have heard from them because they would have been killed .

                              if the koran was written by god not by mohammed why would he need to do this .

                              http://main.faithfreedom.org/

                              [This message has been edited by jonny2mad (edited August 10, 2002).]

                              Jnonny too too mad you are really mad!!!

                              Sorry no offence. First of all you sound like a communist or atleast your views are influenced by communism, is tat true?

                              Any way, the fact that there exists a force that brought the universe into existence is based upon the mind and the reality not on guesswork nor on any sort of theory. If you look at my first post,i have mentioned pure facts that things are limited in life span and that they do not have the ability to live eternally and they not control when they came into existence hence there must be an entity that has control to bring them i.e. the universe and man, into existence. All of these are facts and not blind following and for someone to deny that the universe was not created go's against the reality as today even the scientists have to agree to the concept of the beginning of the universe as they have to explain how the universe came into being.

                              Your arguments are based upon blind hatred for islam and your view towards life is also based upon flawed basis.


                              Comment

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