VIOLENCE - Religously Sanctioned or Random

[hafeez123]

I had started a thread called:ISLAM & INTELLECT and, surprisingly, that went pretty well!

Hoping for a similar repeat with this thread:

What do you think?

Are the violence in our society, be they against other muslim sects or non-muslims, condoned & even sanctioned by religions or are they random?

- The verdict against Danniel Pearl's kilers has met with a threat of serious violence against the government and the foreign interests? Is this threat religiously inspired?

-The attacks on other faiths - verbal, physical, cyber; are they religiously inspired?

-The attacks on people, women seen as dishonouring either Islam or familiy name; are they religiously inspired?

What do you think?
What is the solution?
Is there a solution?

[PakistaniAbroad]

You don't have to go far..

The arrogance and disrespect you'll observe in some poeple's responses to a logical cross examination will reek of a latent self assumed duty motivated by none other than the individual's religious beliefs.

For them, it's like God Himself descended from the heavens (that's where they believe he lives on his throne) and appointed them His deputy to counter any intelligent probes with dogmatic zeal and utter contempt for the 'deviant' who dare question the 'scholars' authority.

[Changez_like]

Originally posted by hafeez123:
...
Are the violence in our society, be they against other muslim sects or non-muslims, condoned & even sanctioned by religions or are they random?.....

They are not "random", but sanctioned by mullahs. "they" want to control the country, "they" need power.

- The verdict against Danniel Pearl's kilers has met with a threat of serious violence against the government and the foreign interests? Is this threat religiously inspired?

Only a stupid will say that it was religious inspiration.

-The attacks on other faiths - verbal, physical, cyber; are they religiously inspired?

same as above

-The attacks on people, women seen as dishonouring either Islam or familiy name; are they religiously inspired?

What do you think?

same as above. They should be educated. Education of mullahs is very important.

....
Is there a solution?

I hope there is.

------------------
May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

[OldLahori]

I donot think it is easy to separate out what is religiously sanctioned and what is motivated by greed. It is clear that Pakistan is getting a bad press, and very likely it is going to be living with the culture of violence for some time to come.
Here is an article showing how greed, politics and religion have gotten entangled for some religious leaders.
*******************************************


http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...9-8-2002_pg3_5

Second opinion: How rich are the religious leaders?


Khaled Ahmed’s Urdu Press Review

PML(Q) is itself a splinter, albeit a growing splinter thanks to you-know-who. It can hardly afford another splintering. This is an issue that the “handlers” will have to resolve

No one talks about the empowerment of the clergy in Pakistan. With power, of course, comes pelf. This is what has happened to the clergy of Pakistan. There are many ways money can be made if you are weaponised and have exemption from law. The weapons came from jehad and the exemption came from the intelligence agencies fighting their covert wars. Now there are far too many actors on the religious stage of Pakistan with money coming out of their ears. The Urdu press is the handmaiden of the religious panjandrums with their hearts full of the love of Islam and their pockets full of dollars.

Columnist Baig Raj writing in daily Din (29 July 2002) said that three great religious leaders of Mutahada Majlis Amal, Qazi Hussain Ahmad, Maulana Fazlur Rehman and Maulana Samiul Haq had started off by saying that Musharraf was an American agent and that the fight in October would be between Madina and Washington. Now of course they had changed tack and Washington was represented by the PML and the PPP, and there was no mention of Musharraf in their last appearance at the Press Club. Hafiz Hussain Ahmad who runs a very ‘rich’ seminary in Quetta and has no dearth of money was happy that his seminary was spared by Musharraf. ‘Money rains on him like a monsoon shower’ (Rupay paisay barish ki tarah barastay hein). He did not have to buy his own cars because his ‘sponsors’ plied him with new cars all the time. Maulana Samiul Haq was likewise a rich man because of his seminary in Akora Khatak, but he got rid of his foreign students quickly after the government ban, saying they had become a burden (Aisay hi bojh banay huai thay). The columnist said he preferred not to mention the popular comment about Samiul Haq’s personal habits which were strange. Maulana Fazlur Rehman was fond of the Pajero and people had noticed that every time he went on a tour he had a new Pajero. The columnist stated that Maulana Fazlur Rehman could leave Qazi Hussain Ahmad in the lurch at any time (hath kar saktay hein).

For fighting the jehad each boy was “officially” paid Rs 5000 per month but the money evaporated at the top or middle levels of the clergy handling the jehadis. The boys ran qabza groups and the clerics sold fatwas to strong arm groups who could enforce the shariah of the fatwa on the point of a gun. One great leader of jehad now in a state of occultation (under arrest?) has farmland and residences and immense cash wealth including cash in pounds which the British government says came only from the UK to the tune of 2 million. One champion of the rights of the Kashmiris has not been fingered and is living a life of luxury in Islamabad in a palatial house spending the cash he got from Osama bin Laden while his men get nabbed by the dozen doing terrorism in Karachi. One pir of the region of Gilan, has so much money stashed abroad that he can build cities with it. His wealth in Pakistan is boundless but the colony he has opened for his followers in California has become the recent focus of paranoid Americans. This pir was in fact the first jehadi who suggested to his “handlers” terrorism as a way of fighting the covert wars. The pir is married many times and can buy anyone and anything he wants.

Jang (29 July 2002) quoted PML(Q) leader Ijazul Haq as saying to his Zia Foundation workers that he wanted to be the president of PML(Q) and that Mian Azhar, the other candidate, had done nothing beyond sitting and chatting in his drawing room. He said if he was not made president he would fight back because in his veins too the blood of a “shaheed” was flowing, meaning the blood of General Zia. According to “Khabrain” (28 July 2002), the Nawaz Sharif government created a policy research institute and rented the house of his senior partyman Ijazul Haq for Rs 48,000 per month to house it without first floating tenders as required under law.

Ijazul Haq as senior vice president of Nawaz Sharif’s PML was never an easy party person to handle. Nawaz Sharif deferred to him because of the many spoken and unspoken debts of loyalty to his father, General Zia. The relationship was always ambivalent. Ijazul Haq always seemed to be playing a game of pressure. He always won his Toba Tek Singh seat. And he had the “army connection”. What made him “safe” was his undying hatred of the PPP and Ms Bhutto, which he shared with the army and Nawaz Sharif. Now he thinks he should take over the party. The party lacks big leaders. Mian Azhar is acceptable to the bigwigs of the party because he is weak. Ijazul Haq is anything but weak. How will the Chaudhry brothers of Gujarat deal with this situation? The PML(Q) is itself a splinter, albeit a growing splinter, thanks to you-know-who. It can hardly afford another splintering. This is an issue that the “handlers” will have to resolve. But it foreshadows the shape of things to come when the PML(Q) sits in the new parliament as the ruling party.

Writer Syed Alamdar Raza writing in “Nawa-e-Waqt” (28 July 2002) said that Pakistan should not allow India to use its nuclear weapons first in any war scenario, but should prepare international opinion in its favour before making its first strike. He said India was cunning and flattering (khushamdi) which was proved when it named its Pokhran Two “The Buddha Smiles” whereas Pakistan, being an honest country, named its tests aggressively.

India has been very cunning. It got us to test in 1998 knowing that we were honest and inclined to be simian. That was cunning indeed. India was growing at the rate of 7 percent of the GDP while we were bankrupt. After the test we ate up 11 billion dollars of the expatriate Pakistanis. From 1998 onwards no one has invested in Pakistan. Now we are in the soup for doing terrorism all over the world. No one will welcome our “preparation of international opinion” for anything, leave alone a first strike. The world knows that we will strike first and it doesn’t even know if our bombs are safe. God save us from cunning enemies like India.

Khaled Ahmed is Pakistan’s leading analyst and is also the consulting editor of The Friday Times

[jonny2mad]

yes they are sanctioned by religous leaders of all faiths not just the major ones .

remember the aum shinrikyo cult in japan who put off the nerve agent in japan .

violent groups can pop up anywhere at the moment there is interest in islamic groups but nutty christians could be just as dangerous.

we have had in recent years mass suicides of western groups, and they could easyly do something like sept 11 if the right leader told them to .

my fear is that one day one of these groups will get theyre hands on a nuke and start world war three .

beware of what leaders tell you

[hafeez123]

It is clear that the Mullahs of all religions are out of control!

from Changez_like:
"They are not "random", but sanctioned by mullahs. "they" want to control the country, "they" need power."

or, from

from jonny2mad:
"beware of what leaders tell you"

How do we, then, neutralize these mullahs ?

Because in Pakistan the three that are mentioned in the article posted by Old Lahori or,
Qazi Ahmed, Fazlur Rehman, Samiul Haque
are the power clique of Mullah-ism and even the Military-backed Musharraf treads carefully against them!

They are like PA said:
"For them, it's like God Himself descended from the heavens (that's where they believe he lives on his throne) and appointed them His deputy to counter any intelligent probes with dogmatic zeal and utter contempt for the 'deviant' who dare question the 'scholars' authority."

I couldn't have said it any better - PA!

One thing - that I disagee with Changez is:

Mullahs can use the religion to do whatever they desire. The scriptures has enough to be manipulated in the right way or the wrong way!

Once a mullah designate one, be that person be christian/jew like Danielle Pearl, or any shia or even a sunni - to be anti-Islam, enemy of Islam or kafir and that Mullah almost has a free hand in what he does with that person.

[sholay]

Whether it's a Mullah, Vicar, Guru, Father, Rabbi, Chief, Pandit, President, Chief Executive, Director etc etc.

It all boils down to POWER!

People believe that they have the DELEGATED Power endorsed by the majority who voted them in, one way or another, to do what they want!

The word you need to look for is ACOUNTABILITY!

There are good and bad, in all walks of of the hierachy attached to religion.

I'm afraid violence is a Huamn Trait which is instilled in the genes and will not come out as easy as one may wish?

Violence is perpetrated physically, emotionally and verbally, by all sectors of communities and is used as a form of punishment, deterant and control factor.

And the choice to use it or not, will always be there!

[OldLahori]

Originally posted by sholay:

Whether it's a Mullah, Vicar, Guru, Father, Rabbi, Chief, Pandit, President, Chief Executive, Director etc etc.

It all boils down to POWER!

People believe that they have the DELEGATED Power endorsed by the majority who voted them in, one way or another, to do what they want!

The word you need to look for is ACOUNTABILITY!

There are good and bad, in all walks of of the hierachy attached to religion.

I'm afraid violence is a Huamn Trait which is instilled in the genes and will not come out as easy as one may wish?

Violence is perpetrated physically, emotionally and verbally, by all sectors of communities and is used as a form of punishment, deterant and control factor.

And the choice to use it or not, will always be there!

Sholay, I completely agree with you. Yes, desire for power and use of violence to get it underlies a lot of events. There is one thing to keep in mind that behaviorialists have found, when we exhibit violence towards our children we are training them to be violent! That is one reason that those who beaten and whipped as children usually grow into beaters and whippers. Unfortunately, the monotheistic religions all tend to agree upon "spare the rod and spoil the child philosphy". I suspect the upbringing of a lot of these Mullahas is very violent. I am sorry I am totally conjecturing here since I have absolutely no experience to back it up.

[rvikz]

God save us from cunning enemies like India.

we make smart move not cunning .it is like playing chess

[hafeez123]

from Sholay:
"The word you need to look for is ACOUNTABILITY!"

The west has already made their clergies accountable by making them subservient to the laws of man?

Can the clergies of islam accept subservience and be accountable to the laws of man?

We both KNOW the answers to this question!

So, what accoutability can we impose?

How about vetting/rooting out unqualified clergies?

But, then how many clergies would allow themselves to be subjected to an examination of their religious qualifications and /or be vetted out!

How many clergies would be willing to co-exist and not infringe upon others?

from Sholay:
"I'm afraid violence is a Huamn Trait which is instilled in the genes and will not come out as easy as one may wish?"

Sholay,
Is worship of Allah not meant to make us peaceful!

Are you at peace with yourself & with the others with the 5 namaz, 30 days fast, haj, charity?

Has religion & worship of allah done that for you?

If not, then why do we follow a religion?

What good is namaz, fast, haj if it does not teach us to respect others?

Or, maybe, that is not what Islam and other Abrahamic religions are all about?

You tell me!

[hafeez123]

I found these following comments from one of my favourite website. Try reading with an open mind:

"Had there been no Bible, Ghita and Koran—India could be just one great nation on earth and people could live with peace and prosperity."

"Had there been no existence of Koran and Bible (Torah), there would have been no Jews and Muslims. They all would have one nationality and could very well live peacefully in that land of Canaanite and Samaria."
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mukto-mona/message/7231

“If all the copies of Koran and hadith are burnt into ashes so that in this earth nobody could read anything regarding Islam, do you think “terrorism” and “atrocities on innocent people” will disappear?” ?

No, terrorism and atrocities will not disappear completely. But, terrorism and atrocities on innocent people will decrease greatly and dramatically. Most of the sectarian problems of mankind all over the world will greatly diminish and eventually will be abolished. Consider, in today’s world, religious feuds between the different Gods are the main factor of wars in many parts of the world causing human misery and destructions. Even though, entire human race was evolved from the single source, religions have divided the family of mankind into—Hindu, Buddha, Jew Christian, Muslim, etc. We are terribly divided and confused by the religions of many different Gods. Scriptural books like Ghita, Bible, Koran etc. misguiding us throughout the entire history of mankind. All these scriptural books (though brought some good things) have miserably misguided us leading to the quarrel and sectarian fights, killings, destructions throughout the history.

Look around you; you can see fights between the different Gods are everywhere. Please go to Middle East, look and ask why Palestinians and Israelis are fighting relentlessly for centuries. It is simply a religious feud and nothing else. Both the Palestinians and Israelis are basically same kind of peoples; you can not differentiate them by physical appearance. They all look a like! But it is the religions separated them for the eternity. Had there been no existence of Koran and Bible (Torah), there would have been no Jews and Muslims. They all would have one nationality and could very well live peacefully in that land of Canaanite and Samaria. There would be no need of horrendous suicide bombings to kill innocent school children.

Now go to India. You can hardly differentiate physical appearance of any human beings from any part of the Indian subcontinent. They all look similar by their physical appearance. They are eating the same foods and breathing same air under the same sky; even they speak same language and have same culture. But they are terribly divided by religions.

Go to Kashmir and try to differentiate the peoples, but you can’t differentiate because they are the same people. Yet they are divided by religions and fighting tooth and nails, every day, throughout the year. Muslims fighting Hindus, Hindus fighting Christians. Even they are fighting between the same religion (Sunni versus Shiite, Sunni versus Kaddiani).

Had there been no Bible, Ghita and Koran—India could be just one great nation on earth and people could live with peace and prosperity. They all are divided by the different divine books—Ghita, Bible, Koran etc. They all claim superior to other, and quarreling and fighting in the name of their own God. This is the same old story in Bosnia, Chechnya, Indonesia and many other places throughout the world.

Remove them (scriptural books) and burn them all and also remove them from the weak minds of gullible peoples. Teach them one universal religion—humanity. You will see 80% reduction of terrorism, wars and innocent killings. Yes, banishing religious books may not give 100% eradication of crime and violence; but for sure, it will reduce violence and crime against humanity 80% percent, guaranteed.

Some may ask question like: “Isn’t it possible that, Godless secular people may commit more severe crime against humanity?” My answers are: (1) please show me one country on earth, which has less crime/corruption and ample prosperity due to the increased religiosity of any kind (Islam, Hinduism, Christianity or Judaism); or (2) please show me one country on earth which has been the most corrupt and less prosperous country because of secularism or Godlessness. I can show you the opposite—many secular Godless countries (like Japan, China, Singapore, Hong Kong, Thailand, and many European countries.) are prosperous nations having less crime than most extremely religious nations on earth. Look at Bangladesh or Pakistan! Are they not fanatically religious nations on earth? These are # one corrupt nations having tremendous sectarian violence and communal atrocities. So what is the real truth? What is the real solution?

[Iqbal1089]

Originally posted by hafeez123:
[b]I can show you the opposite—many secular Godless countries (like Japan, China, Singapore, Hong Kong, Thailand, and many European countries.) are prosperous nations having less crime than most extremely religious nations on earth.

Japan! Is the author perhaps referring to Japan's "unprovoked acts of war" against other countries and hence its involvement in World War 2. Remember Pearl Harbor!? Or maybe the author has in mind Japan's occupation of the Marshall Islands when the island's inhabitants were literally starved and murdered. Surely he can't be thinking of the Nanjing Massacre of 1937 when the Japanese Imperial Army butchered around 300,000 people, mostly civilians and POWs. Or it could be that he's referring to the fact that Korean farmers were forced by Japan to grow opium for its opium operations abroad, particularly in China. Shall i go on...?

China's human rights record is hardly worthy of emulation.

Is this the author's idea of non-religious tolerance? And he wants us to burn our holy books!

Iqbal

[jonny2mad]

At the time Japan did all these things Japan was a militaristic state ruled by the divine god emperor.
I dont think that every time a country is a democracy it always does good.
But the chances for abuse of power when you are ruled by a religion are far greater.
And in general secular democracy is better.

[hafeez123]

Man is inherently a violent being - as was correctly pointed out by Sholay!

Religion has proded man to more violence and has DIVIDED people rather than Unite them and this is the gist of the excerpt that i posted but Iqbal chose to ignore the salient points and go for the defensive!

"Had there been no Bible, Ghita and Koran—India could be just one great nation on earth and people could live with peace and prosperity."

"Had there been no existence of Koran and Bible (Torah), there would have been no Jews and Muslims. They all would have one nationality and could very well live peacefully in that land of Canaanite and Samaria."

There can be no hopelatching on to the message of the book that cannot even prove whether it stands for peace or whether it was revealed as a mercy to mankind.

Let's be fair and restrict religion to personal choice only and not try to shove it down other's throat! Because that would really mean the end of religion!

[rvikz]

what we humans were fighting about before
religens came in to the world?