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    dear all, salaam,

    ibrahim you wrote in your other post that:
    Ibrahim says : Now, You have already established that you are a deviant


    i have read this irritating remark many a times in different threads, not only directed towards me, but also other guppies!!

    A few questions for ibrahim:

    1. who are you to decide that a person is deviant from islam or not???
    just tell me......AAP KI AOKAAT KIA HAI.........????


    now, the second thing!!
    in your other post in the thread on JEsus Christ you wrote:

    [QUOTE]
    ibrahim
    You problem is that you negate the prophetic teachings based on your whims and fancies as such you cannot
    understand what the Prophets taught and why scriptures only contain bits and pieces of information on many given
    subjects , a little here and a little there.
    [/QOUTE]

    the same person who tries to tell everyone the depth of his knowledge and calls every other person deviant from islam makes such a blatant unislamic remarks that the holy scripture(s) contains bits and pieces, little here and there.......

    i do not know about other scripture, but the QURAN is COMPLETE, FULLY-DETAILED AND PERFECT:

    Here are some verses from the Quran:

    "And certainly We have repeated for humankind, in this Quran, every kind of
    example, but the majority of humankind do not consent to aught but denying." (17:89)

    God is talking about EVERY KIND of EXAMPLE


    “We have put forth for humans, in this Qur’an, every kind of example so that they may
    remember” (Qur’an 39:27).


    "And We have revealed the Book to you which has the clear explanation of everything
    , and a guidance and mercy
    and good news for those who submit." (16:89)


    Again GOD says that HIs book has " CLEAR EXPLANATION of EVERYTHING". GOD is making a claim of COMPLETENESS!!

    Some other verses on the DETAILEDNESS of the quran:

    “Shall I then seek a Ruler other than Allah? When He it is Who has revealed to you the
    Book (which is) distinctly detailed” (6:114)

    “And certainly We have brought them a Book, which We have detailed with
    knowledge, a guidance and mercy for a people who believe”
    (7:52)

    “A Book of which the verses are distinctly detailed, an Arabic
    Qur’an for people who know” (41:3)

    “Indeed We have made the verses detailed for a people who take reminder ” (6:126)

    GOD is claiming that HIS book is detailed, so why do the masses (including you , ibrahim)not believe what God has
    said in HIS book revealed
    to us through his Prophet (saw)??!! Why do people say that they need other books (eq. hadith) to SUPPLEMENT,
    EXPLAIN GOD's WORD??

    in other words the book of God is complete, perfect and detailed enough for our salvation!!

    hopefully this makes my point clear!!!!!!
    GOD IS TELLING US THAT HIS BOOK IS PERFECT, COMPLETE AND FULLY-DETAILED, got this one. and you want to tell
    me that the QURAN contains bits and pieces!!
    haa, what a joke!!


    please ibrahim tell me do you agree with what GOD is telling us, or do you still believe that the QURAN contains bits and pieces, little here and there??

    and a simple YES or NO will do!!
    so do not post an epos!!
    if i need further clarification i will make a request!!

    wasalaam.

    #2
    I just noticed that the translation you are quoting from seems to have errors in it. 2 of the verses you posted donot exist at the designated spot in Quran, and others have slightly different wordings which in some cases change the meaning entirely.

    The Yousuf ali translation was taken from http://www.orst.edu/groups/msa/quran/

    and the second translation was taken from http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islam...n/naeindex.htm .

    ----------
    (17:89)

    The translation you posted : "And certainly We have repeated for humankind, in this Quran, every kind of example, but the majority of humankind do not consent to aught but denying."

    Yousuf Ali Translation : "And We have explained to man, in this Qurán, every kind of similitude: yet the greater part of men refuse (to receive it) except with ingratitude! "

    Another Translation : "And indeed We have fully explained to mankind, in this Qur'ân, every kind of similitude, but most mankind refuse (the truth and accept nothing) but disbelief."

    si·mil·i·tude Pronunciation Key (s-ml-td, -tyd)
    n.
    Similarity; resemblance. See Synonyms at likeness.

    One closely resembling another; a counterpart.
    A perceptible likeness.
    Archaic. A simile, allegory, or parable.

    ----------
    (Qur’an 39:27)

    The translation you posted : "We have put forth for humans, in this Qur’an, every kind of example so that they may remember. "

    Yousuf Ali Translation : "We have put forth for men, in this Qurán every kind of Parable, in order that they may receive admonition.

    Another Translation : " And indeed We have put forth for men, in this Qur'ân every kind of similitude in order that they may remember.

    par·a·ble Pronunciation Key (pr-bl)
    n.
    A simple story illustrating a moral or religious lesson.

    ad·mo·ni·tion Pronunciation Key (dm-nshn)
    n.
    Mild, kind, yet earnest reproof.
    Cautionary advice or warning.

    ----------
    (16:89)

    Translation you posted : "And We have revealed the Book to you which has the clear explanation of everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit."

    The Yousuf Ali Translation of verse 16:89 : "On the Day We shall raise from all Peoples a witness against them, from amongst themselves: and We shall bring thee as a witness against these (thy people): and We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy, and Glad Tidings to Muslims. "

    Another translation of verse 16:89 : "And (remember) the Day when We shall raise up from every nation a witness against them from amongst themselves. And We shall bring you (O Muhammad SAW) as a witness against these. And We have sent down to you the Book (the Qur'an) as an exposition of everything, a guidance, a mercy, and glad tidings for those who have submitted themselves (to Allâh as Muslims)."
    ( taken from http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islam...n/naeindex.htm )

    What book are you qouting from my man ? The Holy Quran Verse 16:89 doesnt state anywhere close to what you posted....

    -------
    (6:114)

    Translation you posted : "Shall I then seek a Ruler other than Allah? When He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) distinctly detailed"

    Yousuf Ali Translation : (6:114) "Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt. "

    Another translation : "[Say (O Muhammad SAW)] "Shall I seek a judge other than Allâh while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur'ân), explained in detail." Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt."
    ( taken from http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islam...n/naeindex.htm )

    When quoting a verse, qoute it completely and not partially. Also note the difference in wording of the 2 translations which may or may not change the meaning (im no scholar of the quran so i cant say)

    ------
    (7:52)

    Translation you posted : "And certainly We have brought them a Book, which We have detailed with knowledge, a guidance and mercy for a people who believe"

    Yousuf Ali Translation : "For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe. "

    Another Translation : "Certainly, We have brought to them a Book (the Qur'ân) which We have explained in detail with knowledge, - a guidance and a mercy to a people who believe."

    Once again difference of meaning in the different translations.

    ------
    (41:3)

    Translation you posted : "A Book of which the verses are distinctly detailed, an Arabic Qur’an for people who know"

    Yousuf Ali Translation : " A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qurán in Arabic, for people who understand"

    Another Translation : "A Book whereof the Verses are explained in detail; A Qur'ân in Arabic for people who know."

    Yet again difference in translation , giving different meaning. Distinctly detailed or explained in detail ?

    ------
    (6:126)

    Translation you posted : "Indeed We have made the verses detailed for a people who take reminder"

    Yousuf Ali Translation : "This is the Way of thy Lord, leading straight: We have detailed the Signs for those who receive admonition. "

    Another Translation : "And this is the Path of your Lord (the Qur'ân and Islâm) leading Straight. We have detailed Our Revelations for a people who take heed."

    Totally different verses. You sure ur quoting verse 6:126 ?? Because thats not verse 6:126 in the Holy Quran.

    ----------------


    Im not here to pick a fight. I just thought i`d bring to your attension the errors in the translation you are qouting from.
    Ibrahim and others are definetly more knowledgeable in these matters then me and perhaps they will explain them to you.

    Until then, try quoting the Quran from Yousuf Ali translation because that is a very recognized translation and heralded as a very good one too.



    [This message has been edited by Maniac (edited July 29, 2002).]

    Comment


      #3
      :

      Comment


        #4
        how many times have u repeated all this????

        hadeeth is important and COMPULSORY to follow as is Quran....

        Quran: Surah 24: Verse 52-56
        It is such as obey Allah and His Apostle and fear Allah and do right that will win (in the end).
        They swear their strongest oaths by Allah that if only thou wouldst command them they would leave (their homes). Say: "Swear ye not; obedience is (more) reasonable: verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do."
        Say: "Obey Allah and obey the Apostle: but if ye turn away he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him ye shall be on right guidance. The Apostle's duty is only to preach the clear (Message)."
        Allah has promised to those among you who believe and work righteous deeds that He will of a surety grant them in the land inheritance (of power) as He granted it to those before them; that He will establish in authority their religion the one which He has chosen for them; and that He will change (their state) after the fear in which they (lived) to one of security and peace: `They will worship Me (alone) and not associate aught with Me.' If any do reject faith after this they are rebellious and wicked.
        So establish regular Prayer and give regular Charity: and obey the Apostle; that ye may receive mercy.



        ------------------
        "Our Lord! forgive us our sins and anything we may have done that transgressed our duty; establish our feet firmly and help us against those that resist faith." Quran(3:147)
        Both Halal & Haram r evident but between them r doubtful things, most ppl have no knowledge about them. So whoever saves himself from suspicious things saves his religion & honor, & whoever indulges in suspicious things indulges in Haram.

        Comment


          #5
          salaam to all,

          Im not here to pick a fight. I just thought i`d bring to your attension the errors in the translation you are qouting from.
          dear maniac,

          i agree, i also donot want a fight!!peace to all.
          secondly, thanks for bringing the inconsistencies to light.
          i have gone through the sources from which i took this translation, and i think i know why there is confusion. 1. i quoted certain verses partially (verse 16:89 and verse 6:114 and verse 6:126)
          the other verses have been translated bit differently, but the message is the same i think.

          usually i go through different translations, but on this occansion i did not. so, thank you for bringing this up!!

          wasalaam.

          Comment


            #6
            Ibrahim says: salaams to all

            Helloooooooo Filhaal ! CAN YOU HEAR ME???? I speaketh simple english

            Hey kid, YOU claimed a hadith was FALSE , so prove it FIRST, failing which stop vomiting about other matters that is beyond your comprehension. I just don.t have the time to play hide and seek with you

            kindly Go here http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/005560-2.html and provide the evidence for your statements

            Now, if you think you can take the Muslim readers around the bend by jumping from one tree to another like a monkey or by starting new threads to divert the pending issue, sorry, it does not work with me or any reasonable person who has been following the threads .

            Now I suggest, you provide the evidence for a hadith to be rejected not your own whims and fancies but the methodology as accepted by Muslims not by deviants either.

            Now after you have accomplished that I assure you I will by the Grace of Allah (swt) provide you sufficient info to satisfy you as to why I consider you a deviant and as to what authority I have to do so.

            Now be a good kiddo and provide the evidence to back your claims, NOT YOUR CONJECTURES.

            Was salaam
            Ibrahim

            Allah, the Exalted, says:

            "When the hypocrites come to you (O Muhammad (PBUH)), they say: `We bear witness that you are indeed the Messenger of Allah.' Allah knows that you are indeed His Messenger, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are liars indeed.'' (63:1)

            Comment


              #7
              ibrahim,


              Now I suggest, you provide the evidence for a hadith to be rejected not your own whims and fancies but the methodology
              as accepted by Muslims not by deviants either.
              go back to the original thread and read the proof from the QURAN which i have presented.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by filhaal:
                ibrahim, go back to the original thread and read the proof from the QURAN which i have presented.
                Ibrahim says: Filhaal! Go back to that thread and present your evidence again , most likely due to your incompetence you have misconceived what the Qur.an is saying.

                Further more in addition to your claim

                1) The hadith was blasphemous
                2) Illogical
                3) Prophet (pbuh) NEVER said it


                Now you add, that it contradicts the Qur.an. So you better have sound answers because you are putting the noose round your own neck.

                Was salaam
                Ibrahim


                Allah, the Exalted, says:

                "When the hypocrites come to you (O Muhammad (PBUH)), they say: `We bear witness that you are indeed the Messenger of Allah.' Allah knows that you are indeed His Messenger, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are liars indeed.'' (63:1)

                Comment


                  #9
                  The Apostle's duty is only to preach the clear (Message)."
                  armughal, this is as clear as it will ever get. The sole duty of the messenger was delivering the message and preaching it.. not to foretell the future, not to issue new commandments, not to rule according to the Torah and not to supercede whatever was delivered in the Qur'an.

                  Now for those who were in his time, obeying him was obeying Allah. For us.. obeying the Qur'an is like obeying him and obeying Allah.

                  It's not that difficult.. try for once to think outside the box.
                  JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
                    armughal, this is as clear as it will ever get. The sole duty of the messenger was delivering the message and preaching it.. not to foretell the future, not to issue new commandments, not to rule according to the Torah and not to supercede whatever was delivered in the Qur'an.

                    Now for those who were in his time, obeying him was obeying Allah. For us.. obeying the Qur'an is like obeying him and obeying Allah.

                    It's not that difficult.. try for once to think outside the box.
                    well said
                    strange to see that people are not able or are not willing to make this step??
                    Why so serious ... ?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      heh...step outside t he box ? you fella's seem to be the one boxed in , not willing to even think about the Prophets Teachings when the Quran is oh so clear about them.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I will re-open this thread when all of you pledge not to repeat any personal attacks against a person, or their beliefs, and learn to behave. Till then.....

                        Comment

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