Try Panchayat cases in the shariat court!

[hafeez123]

The Govt recently announced that they would be trying the Panchayat Gang rape case in the Anti Terrorism court (ATC).

There is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and the defense team representing the Panchayat would appeal this because the Anti terrorim courts (ATC) were established to prosecute those assocaited with sectarianism!

The Govt counters that this case can be tried at the ATC because this 'gang rape' had terrorized the whole nation.

SPEAK THE TRUTH!
The govt is sceptical and rightly so that if this case is tried at the shariat court under the laws of hadood, the panchayat would be found - not guilty!

QUESTION:
How about the blasphemey case where the Panchayat of the Pesh Imam ordered a man to be STONED to death!

Would the govt try this under the ATC as well?

This too belongs in the shariat court!

Let these cases be tried in its rightful place and let us all find out how Islam was interpreted - incorrectly or correctly to first: gang rape the women
and,
later have a man Stoned to death!

[Mr Fraudia]

Originally posted by hafeez123:

SPEAK THE TRUTH!
The govt is sceptical and rightly so that if this case is tried at the shariat court under the laws of hadood, the panchayat would be found - not guilty!!

you are incorrect. period. I mean if you are going to try and mislead people and start flame baits atleast be a little more cunning.

aik toh har aik religion ki auhtority ban jata hai yahan par.

aa jatay hain kahan kahan say moonh utha kar

[This message has been edited by Fraudz (edited July 15, 2002).]

[hafeez123]

you are incorrect. period. I mean if you are going to try and mislead people and start flame baits atleast be a little more cunning.

aik toh har aik religion ki auhtority ban jata hai yahan par.

HOW am I incorrect?
AND,
How am I misleading people?

If someone wishes to use such strong words, then pls corroborate a little?

Do you think the 'shariat court' would find the Pesh Imam guilty under the laws of hadood?

The Pesh Iman was in compliance!
"One blasphemes the prophet; the penalty is DEATH!"

How about showing me otherwise, since you have called my statement - MISLEADING

Same can be proved re: The Panchayat Gang rape if prosecuted under the shariat court!

[Mr Fraudia]

well chanda you first prove your statement. you just made an assumption and are presenting it as fact, so why dont you go ahead and prove it first

[ahmadjee]

*book marks the thread*

I have been looking for references in Hadiths that dictate that Blasphemous must be stoned to death, but have failed to do so.

Maybe this thread will mention the reference.

Hafeez, please I urge you to prove from Quran & Hadiths that:

"One blasphemes the prophet; the penalty is DEATH!"

[hafeez123]

Originally posted by Fraudz:
well chanda you first prove your statement. you just made an assumption and are presenting it as fact, so why dont you go ahead and prove it first

I do not make assumption which cannot be substantiated!

I believe I have quoted the proof under this thread that you have VISITED and made similar comments:
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum4/HTML/004825.html


In the above thread, my opening remarks were:
" Muslims are afraid to FACE the truth".

QED

ahmadjee,
If you are suggesting that the penalty of DEATH for blasphemy is not per quran and sunnah then I suggest you study what you follow in more details!

[Mr Fraudia]

hafeez yeah you made claims in that thread too with only your own words to substantiate them.

how about providing some evidence, not that something happens, but it happens and is sanctioned as being islamic.

whats next will you now point me to another thread you started with no substance and all posturing as a source?

[This message has been edited by Fraudz (edited July 15, 2002).]

[hafeez123]

Originally posted by Fraudz:
hafeez yeah you made claims in that thread too with only your own words to substantiate them.

how about providing some evidence, not thats omething happens, but it happens and is sanctioned as being islamic.

whats next will you now point me to another thread you started with no substance and all posturing as a source?

Now, you know why such "extreme laws" exist under Islam because people do not wish to 'Face the TRUTH'! They make comments just like yours!

Pir sahib,
I have substantiated my comments with verses from the quran and its tafsir:
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum4/HTML/004825.html


Holy QURAN[5:45]
We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and WOUNDS equal for equal."

But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

Holy QURAN [2:178-179]
O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. And for him who is forgiven somewhat by his (injured) brother, prosecution according to usage and payment unto him in kindness. This is an alleviation and a mercy from your Lord. He who transgresseth after this will have a painful doom.

And there is life for you in retaliation, O men of understanding, that ye may ward off (evil).

THESE are 'not my words'.
You ask for 'EVIDENCE' as if the above two VERSES are not enough!

The EVIDENCE are:
1)Honour killings in their hundred and hardly ever a conciction - not only in Pakistan but throughtout the muslim world.
2)killing for blasphemey - the recent case where the Panchayat of a Pesh Imam declares the man be stoned.
3)EYE for An EYE revenge /retribution under the laws of qisAS.
4)Stoning to death under the laws of hadood.
5)limb amputation and the three strikes and you are KILLED for drinking alchohol - laws.

The above exists because they are abetted in the sharia and its 'EXTREME' interpetations.

[ahmadjee]

Hafeez,

Holy QURAN[5:45]
We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and WOUNDS equal for equal."

But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

Holy QURAN [2:178-179]
O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. And for him who is forgiven somewhat by his (injured) brother, prosecution according to usage and payment unto him in kindness. This is an alleviation and a mercy from your Lord. He who transgresseth after this will have a painful doom.

And there is life for you in retaliation, O men of understanding, that ye may ward off (evil).

In your opinion the above constitute the death sentence for a blasphemer?

[hafeez123]

Originally posted by ahmadjee:
Hafeez,

In your opinion the above constitute the death sentence for a blasphemer?

The above are for cases of QisAs.

There are other more specific verses that deals DIRECTLY with blasphemy.

[This message has been edited by hafeez123 (edited July 15, 2002).]

[hafeez123]

---snip----
meant to edit the above!

[This message has been edited by hafeez123 (edited July 15, 2002).]

[ahmadjee]

There are other more specific verses that deals DIRECTLY with blasphemy.

Please don't hesitate to share!

[Mr Fraudia]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hafeez123:
Now, you know why such "extreme laws" exist under Islam because people do not wish to 'Face the TRUTH'! They make comments just like yours!

what xtreme law? those that exist I have no problem accepting the fact that they exist. But to take creative license and make your own facts is a whole diff ball game.


Pir sahib,
I have substantiated my comments with verses from the quran and its tafsir:
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum4/HTML/004825.html


Holy QURAN[5:45]
We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and WOUNDS equal for equal."

But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

Holy QURAN [2:178-179]
O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. And for him who is forgiven somewhat by his (injured) brother, prosecution according to usage and payment unto him in kindness. This is an alleviation and a mercy from your Lord. He who transgresseth after this will have a painful doom.

And there is life for you in retaliation, O men of understanding, that ye may ward off (evil).

THESE are 'not my words'.
You ask for 'EVIDENCE' as if the above two VERSES are not enough!

The EVIDENCE are:
1)Honour killings in their hundred and hardly ever a conciction - not only in Pakistan but throughtout the muslim world.

Because its a male dominated society. Honor killings have nothing to do with Islam. This is a societal ill like bride burning due to dowry reasons...another societal ill of male dominated society.

2)killing for blasphemey - the recent case where the Panchayat of a Pesh Imam declares the man be stoned.

That does exist. why blaspheme then? I friggin hate speeding laws, but i know my ass is grass as oon as I speed so I dont speed.

3)EYE for An EYE revenge /retribution under the laws of qisAS.

Qisas does exist but your interpretation of it is skewed. Innocent people can not be impacted in qisas. again if i kill your brother, you can ask for my execution but you cant go kill my brother and call it justice. If someone skews it this way then they are incorrect, does it happen, probably does. But enough crimes and crap happens in Pakistan that goes unreported, unpunished and unaddressed.

4)Stoning to death under the laws of hadood.

That exists as well.


5)limb amputation and the three strikes and you are KILLED for drinking alchohol - laws.

Ummm killed for drinking..I dunno about that.

The above exists because they are abetted in the sharia and its 'EXTREME' interpetations.

ahhhh so you say the magic word "interpretations" ... and who does interpretations, people do. and who are the people especially in panchayat situations. jahil, rural, closed minded, people.

[Changez_like]

Originally posted by hafeez123:
....
The Govt counters that this case can be tried at the ATC because this 'gang rape' had terrorized the whole nation.

[/b]

I don't know how the nation was "terrorized". Did anyone stop their daily business and stayed into homes? This is their 'excuse'.

SPEAK THE TRUTH!
The govt is sceptical and rightly so that if this case is tried at the shariat court under the laws of hadood, the panchayat would be found - not guilty!

[/b]

So you already believe that Shariat court will rule the Penchayat not-guilty, hmmmmm.

......
Let these cases be tried in its rightful place and let us all find out how Islam was interpreted - incorrectly or correctly to first: gang rape the women and,later have a man Stoned to death![/B]

Yes this case can actually be tried in ANY "court" will find penchayat guilty whether its Civil Court, or Shariat Court.

The verses you have provided as "proof" constitute for "murder" only, they do not form any basis for "rape/gang-rape" case. All the guilty should receive number of lashes as described in Quran.

------------------
May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

[PyariCgudia]

Read up on the gang rape case in Punjab, my friend. In fact, the Jang - The News - section You -> has a 2 great articles on the gang rape.


1. Prove to me that Gang rape is even a Islamic prescribed punishment.

2. The girl who was gang-raped was not even the one who did anything wrong - it was her brother that was ACCUSED w/o any strong evidence of having an affair. Some reports from the village say that the upper-caste tribe that meated out the punishment to the innocent sister was responsible for sodomizing the 11 year old boy. Something happened with the police getting involved, and the upper-caste tribe gang-raped the girl in revenge. So there are MANY conflicting stories in this case, and to even say that the 11-year old boy who hasn't even reached puberty, was responsible for having an affair with a 30 yr old woman would be narrowing the case and jumping to conclusions.

3. Blasphemy is not punishable by stoning. There is no ayah or hadith that says "oh so and so blasphemed God, and the punishment was stoning"

Eye for an eye, etc are different and are delivered for misbehavior. Blaspheming God is not misbehavior, and you're not hurting any other human by it. You're only hurting yourself, and furthermore, how can you tell me one can get stoned for having a particular belief when it is a known FACT that non-muslims are permitted to live in Muslim-run lands? They're certainly not stoned, are they?

Remember, crimes that you get Islamically punished for are those in which you are hurting people, or the community at large. If one person gets up in an imam's face and tells him and Islam off, then that person is not hurting anyone, and is not hurting the community. They hold a belief and they've stated it. The imam should have been gentle and tried to guide him.

Also, you have to remember that it was the Imam that accused the kid of blaspheming Islam. This was an accusation, and it wasn't proven. Also, his words could have been taken out of context. The man could have cursed out of anger, or said something like "I dont agree with YOUR version or interpretation of Islam" and thus, the Imam could have easily accused him of blasphemy.

We dont know the facts, and there are more possibilities than mere accusations. Usually religious accusations like these are doubtful in places like Pakistan.