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    If there is a God or not isn't the question but if there is is he/she good

    it's not my concern as to whether god exists or not as much as if a god exists is he/she the one envisioned by the major religions and probably most religions ie good, caring etc. cuz if god doesn't exist or doesnt care it's the same consequence for me. so provide scientific arguments if u say god is good and not religious ones. for all i know god could be satan and in that case im screwed but i hope and pray not. and by god a just mean the most powerful entity there is.

    #2
    Originally posted by vivek:

    so provide scientific arguments if u say god is good and not religious ones.
    Goodness of God cannot be proved by science(in my view)..
    its BEYOND the understanding of "MAN MADE" SCIENCE..how do u expect science to explain the goodness of God which(science) was itself created by the creation of God(which being the man)! [I hope u understood what i meant over here]. Science doesn't even recognize(isn't aware of) the existence of God. hmmm consider God as the universal set & science as the subset..

    as i mentioned in one of my previous posts that faith in God is completely BLIND FAITH. Its not something which needs a theorem to be proved. Only humans are capable of FEELING the existence of God UNLIKE science which is DEVOID of feelings i.e SCIENCE is devoid of FEELINGS & it cannot feel GOD. You know love exists; right! Can science PROVE the existence(or further more the goodness of LOVE)of love!

    BUT if you really want to see this from a SCIENTIFIC perspective then here goes...

    To Prove:
    "Can we prove the Goodness of God."---------------------------------(A)

    Condition:
    The tool "SCIENCE" is to be used for the proof.

    Proof:
    We assume that FEELING is an integral CHARACTER REQUIRED in order to prove the goodness of God.-----(1)
    Now from (1), Feeling should be one of the characteristics of SCIENCE.
    Clearly, SCIENCE does not possess FEELING.
    Therefore our condition contradicts our assumption and consequently (A).

    Conclusion:

    THEREFORE we can say that We cannot prove the Goodness of God.


    Probably other guppies can shed some better light on this.



    [This message has been edited by heart beat (edited June 29, 2002).]
    I don't know where I am going. I don't know what for but I am making progress.

    Comment


      #3
      You cant give the kind of proof you are looking for.. Its all a matter of faith... If you believe, its because you want to believe, nothing wrong with that. If you dont want to believe, then thats ok aswell..
      Bottom line, faith is not something we can prove or disporve, cant prove their is a god and cant prove their isn't.
      I prefer to believe there is a god and that enough for me

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by vivek:
        it's not my concern as to whether god exists or not as much as if a god exists is he/she the one envisioned by the major religions and probably most religions ie good, caring etc. cuz if god doesn't exist or doesnt care it's the same consequence for me. so provide scientific arguments if u say god is good and not religious ones. for all i know god could be satan and in that case im screwed but i hope and pray not. and by god a just mean the most powerful entity there is.
        First you have to beleive He exist before you can assume him to have a good and caring way for you..or anyone for that matter...
        ~~~~Love is Grand !!~~~~

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by heart beat:
          Goodness of God cannot be proved by science(in my view)..
          its BEYOND the understanding of "MAN MADE" SCIENCE..how do u expect science to explain the goodness of God which(science) was itself created by the creation of God(which being the man)! [I hope u understood what i meant over here]. Science doesn't even recognize(isn't aware of) the existence of God. hmmm consider God as the universal set & science as the subset..

          as i mentioned in one of my previous posts that faith in God is completely BLIND FAITH. Its not something which needs a theorem to be proved.
          "Can we prove the Goodness of God."
          very good point heart....
          there is no sceince to it....
          and these words still come to mind,"Faith is the substance of things hoped for,yet NOT seen."
          We can only go on blind faith each day..just look at everything in our lives....we know it came from some source...at least that is what we BElEIVE..

          so you can also beleive from what u attain through life expereince that he(all mighty god/allah)is a caring person...and does exist...for u..yourself does exist..

          hope this makes sense to you
          ~~~~Love is Grand !!~~~~

          Comment


            #6
            does god fullfills mulims request only?
            only helps mulisms? what is your answer ? since mulisms say their religen is only true
            religen? is there anyway you can prove non-mulsims prayers not answererd?

            Comment


              #7
              As-Salaam 'alaykum wa-Rahmatullaahe wa-Barakaatuhu

              Praise be to Allaah.

              I posted this article in another thread a few days ago but the same questions are being asked. So here it is again:

              Allaah(swt) says

              "And whoever seeks a religion other than Islaam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers." [Aal ‘Imraan 3:85]

              “This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islâm as your religion” [al-Maa’idah 5:3]

              The hadeeth is: "By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, there is no-one of this ummah, Jew or Christian, who hears of me then dies without believing in that with which I have been sent, but he will be one of the people of Hell." (Reported by Muslim, may Allaah have mercy on him, in al-Saheeh, 153).

              With reference to the aayah

              "Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allaah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.” [al-Baqarah 2:62]

              see
              http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=en...&QR=2912&dgn=3

              Allaah(swt) sent His creation one fundamental message, Tawheed (Divine unity) -Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah.

              According to Tawheed (Islamic monothesim, the message of all the Prophets), Christainity is classified as polytheism and Judaism is considered a subtle form of idolatry. Judaism and Christainity are NOT religions that Allaah(swt) sent to mankind but corrupted teachings of the true message of Tawheed (Islamic monothesim) taught by Prophet Moosa and Prophet Esa (peace upon them both) as well as all the Prophets of Allaah(swt).

              Prophet Muhammad(saw) came with the same message (Tawheed - Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah) as all Prophets of Allaah but with a sharia that abrogrates past laws.

              It goes without saying Tawheed - Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah - is the single most important topic in Islam. If anyone does not have a firm understanding in this topic, spend time and effort understanding it!

              I’ve left some links at the bottom of the post - inshaa’allah it will help.

              The following is an extract from islam-qa which inshaa'allah will in force the points mentioned above.

              Praise be to Allaah.

              Muslims believe in all the Prophets and Messengers without exception; whoever denies any Prophet is a disbeliever. Muslims believe in all the Books that were revealed by Allaah to His Prophets, without exception; whoever denies any Book is a disbeliever.

              On this basis, Muslims believe in Moosa (Moses) as a Prophet from Allaah, and in the original Torah as a Book from Allaah, and in ‘Eesa (Jesus) as a Prophet from Allaah, and in the original Gospel as a Book from Allaah.

              When the previous books were distorted and altered because of men’s desires and division among the Jews and Christians, it was no longer possible to rely on them.

              Allaah abrogated all previous laws (sharee’ahs) when Islam came, and all previous Books when the Qur’aan was revealed. When He sent Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) as the final Messenger and Seal of the Prophets, it became obligatory to believe in and follow the Qur’aan which was revealed to him, especially since Allaah has guaranteed to preserve the Qur’aan and protect it from alteration and distortion, as He says (interpretation of the meaning): “Verily We: it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e., the Qur’aan) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).” [al-Hijr 15:9]

              Regarding Prophet Ibraaheem (peace be upon him) is the Khaleel (Friend) of Allaah, the Father of the Prophets and the pride of the Muslims. Allaah sent him with the message of Tawheed (Divine unity) just as He sent Moosa, ‘Eesa and Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon them all). The happiest of mankind is one who follows his way, which is Tawheed (belief in Divine unity).

              Because both the Jews and Christians claimed that Ibraaheem belonged to them, Allaah explained that they were both wrong, giving decisive historical evidence in the aayaat (interpretation of the meaning):
              “O People of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Why do you dispute about Ibraaheem, while the Tawraat and the Injeel were not revealed till after him? Have you then no sense?

              Verily, you are those who have disputed about that of which you have no knowledge. Why do you then dispute concerning that which you have no knowledge? It is Allaah Who knows, and you know not.

              Ibraaheem was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a true Muslim haneefa (Islamic monotheism – worshipping none but Allaah alone), and he was not of al-mushrikoon (polytheists).

              Verily, among mankind who have the best claim to Ibraaheem are those who followed him, and this Prophet (Muhammad (peace andb lessings of Allaah be upon him) and those who have believed (Muslims). And Allaah is the Wali (Protector and Helper) of the believers.”[Aal ‘Imraan 3:65-68]

              Belief in all the Prophets and Messengers is one of the pillars of Islamic belief (‘aqeedah), without which the faith of the Muslim cannot be complete, because they all preached the same message (i.e. they we ALL muslims), which is belief in Allaah. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
              “Say (O Muslims): ‘We believe in Allaah and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibraaheem (Abraham), Ismaa’eel (Ishmael), Ishaaq (Isaac), Ya‘qoob (Jacob), and to Al-Asbaat [the offspring of the twelve sons of Ya‘qoob (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Moosa (Moses) and ‘Isa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islam)’” [al-Baqarah 2:136]

              Here are those links:

              Please find time to get and read the following book.
              http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen.../abutaw_1.html

              Other very important information on tauheed/aqeedah can be found in the links below. It explains the the kalimah (word) of tauheed, 'La ilaha ill-Allah" according to how the Prophet(saw) taught it and how it was understood by his companions. http://www.islaam.net/display/display.php?
              category=3 http://www.islaam.com/Article.asp?id=323 http://www.islaam.com/Section.asp?id=4 http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/introduc...aimiyah_1.html

              Brothers and sisters in Islam. Know your religion before you make the outrageous comments that I seen on this topic.

              Wa Salaam 'alaykum wa-Rahmatullaahe wa-Barakaatuhu

              Comment


                #8
                As Salaam 'alaykum wa-Rahmatullaahe wa-Barakaatuhu

                Sorry the links posted at the bottom of my article didn't come out very well. Here they are again inshaa'allah.
                http://www.islaam.net/display/display.php?category=3
                http://www.islaam.com/Article.asp?id=323
                http://www.islaam.com/Section.asp?id=4
                http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/introduc...aimiyah_1.html

                Wa Salaam 'alaykum wa-Rahmatullaahe wa-Barakaatuhu

                Comment


                  #9
                  Contrary to the above statement of my good-hearted fellow guppies science is an integral part of Islam

                  I'll post up some references later, but if you get a chance, please read Surah Rehman. Its a surah, or passage, in the Quran regarding evil, and good, the balance found within opposites (many eastern religions actually are founded on this same subject).

                  Furthermore, you will see many scientific descriptions - which was impossible for an illiterate man like the Prophet Muhammed to actually know.

                  In that surah there is a description of two bodies of water that meet, but their paths never intertwine. I will have to dig up an article, but scientists have actually found a freshwater body of water and a saltwater body of water meeting, but never mingling. Its almost like an invisible curtain between the two bodies of water.


                  Also, scientific proof of the nature of God can be found in nature and biology. There is a description in Surah Yaseen of the sperm and egg of a woman combining to form a clot which later develops into a human. This info was not discovered by man until much later. So how did it come to be in the Quran?

                  Also, the biological diversity you see around you shows that God indeed exists.

                  I can go on 4ever. But you ask about scientific proof that God is good. If God did exist, and he was Evil, then why would he bestow all these natural resources to us which allow us to build our cities, and help feed us, and cure us, etc?

                  Why would the ground be filled with valuable minerals?

                  The fact that many innocent people suffer is indigestible to the doubtful of an all-Good God, as embraced by monotheistic religions. But the scientific proof is that even major problems like cancer, do have survivors. If God was unkind, why would there be survivors. Also, in Islam there is a concept of punishment within THIS lifetime. Just like the Hindu Karma explains one's misfortunes as a result of bad deeds of a past lifetime, Islam explains misfortunes and suffering as

                  1. A test. This goes in accordance with the whole God vs. Satan and Good vs. Evil, and heaven vs. hell deal. If you got a disease today, then God may be testing your faith. Will you give up in your suffering and curse God for the disease you have? Many of us face tests in our life that make us question the existence or goodness of God. But if we keep our faith, we see that this suffering is only temporary.

                  Logic: If you are a teacher, and you want ALL your students to learn a concept, and to see if they've really learned, you give them a test. You've done everything you can do with the rules that you must obey as a teacher (ex. you can't help a fav. student cheat). If 1/8 of your students fail the test, this might be viewed as cruelty. But the wise student will come to you and say, "I want to do better. Teach me and show me how to approach the problems correctly", as oppose to the idiotic student who says "Damn you - now my GPA is going to fall because you dont like me. If you liked me, you'd have given me easier problems, you jerk".

                  thus, cruelty and goodness is in a way, in the eyes of the believer, or non-believer.

                  2. Punishment.

                  If you've stolen money from your teacher's desk, would you expect your teacher to not punish you? Would you think that if she did not punish you, that she is good? No of course not! You'd think - this teacher has no idea how to discipline her students, and thus, she shouldn't be a teacher. Today's tiny chor, becomes tomorrow's big chor.

                  Thus, some punishment is given in this lifetime. Muslims view the punishment of the afterlife as much harsher, and thus prefer the punishment of this lifetime.

                  As you can see, i've used logic to explain my theory. Logic is a type of science.

                  I'd love to share more with you, vivek, if you wish.

                  May your search for the Truth be fruitful.
                  PCG
                  I believe in dragons, good men, and other fantasy creatures.

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