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    authentic and unauthentic

    Dear all assalamu alaikum,

    there is a whole lot discussion going on about Ahadith being authentic, unauthentic (weak, fabricated etc.).

    some people believe that collection "Sihah Sitta" (the six sahih collection) contains authentic ahadith.

    Do they mean that "ALL" ahadith contained in the "Sihah Sitta" are authentic and hence unchallengeable?

    OR

    Do they mean that there are other books which further divided ahadith into "Authentic" and "Unauthentic (weak, fabricated etc.)"?

    I personally believe that the sihah sitta collection is a 'best-possible' collection, but does not necessarily guarantee that all ahadith in these collections are true/accurate/authentic. I also believe that after these collections, more scholars spent time in determining what ahadith are 'authentic' and what are not.

    ------------------
    May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

    #2
    Dear Changez_like,

    Wa'alaykum assalaam wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatahu brother,

    The Muhaditheen (scholars of ahadeeth) have checked and confirmed, that without a doubt, the two most authentic books of hadeeth are Bukhaaree and Muslim. Every single hadeeth in Bukhaaree is known to be authentic, and all but approximately 5% of ahadeeth in Muslim are known to be authentic, which have also been mentioned by certain scholars, in their respective books.

    As for the other 4 books of the 'Saheeh Sitta', then although the majority of the ahadeeth comprised within them are authentic, there are a few which have been classified as weak, a list of which can also be obtained from the books of the Muhaditheen, Shaykh Naasir-ud-Deen Al-Albaani - raheemahuAllaah - being the most prominent of them in our times.

    Apart from the Saheeh Sitta, then there are also other ahadeeth, and books of ahadeeth, investigated by the scholars of the past and authenticated by the Muhaditheen, that can be found today.

    ... and Allaah knows best.

    &peace

    ------------------
    "No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."

    [This message has been edited by Hasnain (edited July 09, 2002).]

    Comment


      #3
      Every single hadeeth in Bukhaaree is known to be authentic
      I disagree with that.

      Imam Bukhari (just like other Imams who compilied Hadiths) never claimed his compilation to be purely authentic. He devised a certain criteria & followed it to include or exclude Ahadiths from his compilation.

      Any hadiths that go against/contradict the Quranic verses cannot be proven as authentic.

      Husnain, I will really appriciate if you explain your belief in the thread What abrogates what
      I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
      - Robert McCloskey

      Comment


        #4
        Oroginally posted by ahmadjee:

        Imam Bukhari (just like other Imams who compilied Hadiths) never claimed his compilation to be purely authentic.
        Indeed he did not. After all he was human. But from over 40,000 ahadeeth he collected, he only included a small portion in his Saheeh after authenicating them, to the best of his ability. For sure he could have made mistakes, but the muhaditheen, of both past and present, after research and investigation have acknowledged and concluded, and by the blessing of Allaah, that all the ahadeeth in the Saheeh of al-Bukhaaree are authentic insha'Allaah.

        If you disagree, then please give the name of any recognised scholar of Ahlus-Sunnah who has stated otherwise.

        Or, as you rightly said:

        Originally posted by ahmadjee:

        Any hadiths that go against/contradict the Quranic verses cannot be proven as authentic.
        ... please provide any hadeeth of Al-Bukhaaree that contradicts a verse of the Qur'aan as understood by the Companions - the best of mankind.

        --------------------
        "No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."

        Comment


          #5
          please provide any hadeeth of Al-Bukhaaree that contradicts a verse of the Qur'aan as understood by the Companions - the best of mankind.
          The argument seems flawed .

          You ask for a verse in the qur'an as understood by the companions

          Now where would you find the 'supposed understandings' of the Companions?? in Bukhari etc??

          Back to square one?
          JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

          Comment


            #6
            Now where would you find the 'supposed understandings' of the Companions?? in Bukhari etc??
            Well, i'm not going to ask for a verse as understood by any Tom, Dick or PakistaniAbroad, am i?

            ... that truly would be flawed!

            &peace to the Companions, " ...the best of nations ever raised up from humanity." [Surah Al-Imraan 3:110]

            -----------------
            "No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."


            [This message has been edited by Hasnain (edited July 09, 2002).]

            Comment


              #7
              Br Hasnain,

              Does this ayat applies to Companions only? I 've seen this ayat being used to show that Muslims can be best Ummah if we follow what is prescribed herein.

              Originally posted by Hasnain:
              [B]Well, i'm not going to ask for a verse as understood by any Tom, Dick or PakistaniAbroad, am i?

              ... that truly would be flawed!

              &peace to the Companions, " ...the best of nations ever raised up from humanity." [Surah Al-Imraan 3:110]


              ------------------
              May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Hasnain:
                Well, i'm not going to ask for a verse as understood by any Tom, Dick or PakistaniAbroad, am i?
                Oh heavens NO!

                You will close your mind and pick up compilations from heresay containing no documentary evidence having absolutely NO means of verifying if the names and persons mentioned ever existed and take it over and above Qur'an and subject the Qur'an to it's interpretations.. now that in your opinion wouldn't be flawed.

                &peace to the Companions, " ...the best of nations ever raised up from humanity." [Surah Al-Imraan 3:110]
                Sorry but when will you, Ibrahim and the lot get off those story books and start reading the Qur'an properly??

                When will the Admins here show some knowledge and reprimand the lot of you for grossly and intentionaly misquoting, misrepresenting and misinterpreting Qur'an for the sake of your argument???

                Read 3:110 from three translators:

                Pickthall

                Ye are the best community that hath been raised up for mankind. Ye enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency; and ye believe in Allah. And if the People of the Scripture had believed it had been better for them. Some of them are believers; but most of them are evil-livers.

                Yusufali

                Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in God. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors.

                Shakir

                You are the best of the nations raised up for (the benefit of) men; you enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and believe in Allah; and if the followers of the Book had believed it would have been better for them; of them (some) are believers and most of them are transgressors

                PakistaniAbroad: Where does it say it's about Companions???

                Where does it specify which of the Companions if at all???
                JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

                Comment


                  #9
                  Husnain,

                  Indeed he did not. After all he was human. But from over 40,000 ahadeeth he collected, he only included a small portion in his Saheeh after authenicating them, to the best of his ability. For sure he could have made mistakes, but the muhaditheen, of both past and present, after research and investigation have acknowledged and concluded, and by the blessing of Allaah, that all the ahadeeth in the Saheeh of al-Bukhaaree are authentic insha'Allaah.

                  If you disagree, then please give the name of any recognised scholar of Ahlus-Sunnah who has stated otherwise.
                  First, you answered your own question. As the 'muhaditheen' were/are also humans & are as prone to mistake like Imam Bukhari (ra).

                  Secondly, by narrowing down the the muhaditheen to Ahlus-Sunnah; you have automatically admited to the fact that any other scholor who does not believe in the same school of thought as yourself cannot be considered ... then who am I to say anything?

                  ... please provide any hadeeth of Al-Bukhaaree that contradicts a verse of the Qur'aan as understood by the Companions - the best of mankind.
                  1. The stoning of the adulterer; discussed here many times.
                  2. Death penalty for Murtadh; also discussed here.

                  If you want, I will start PMing you the Hadiths from Bukhari that I have no clue about & you can start explaining to me the answers. Deal? I don't want to post them here & make a mockery out of Islam, like in this thread.
                  I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
                  - Robert McCloskey

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Dear brother Changez_like,

                    According to most of the Mufasireen, then without question this verse refers to the Companions, as Allaah - subhaana wa ta'aala - was addressing the Muslim Ummah at the time of its revelation, who clearly were the Companions:

                    "You are the best of nations ever raised up from humanity. You enjoin all that is good and forbid all that is evil, and you believe in Allaah." [Surah Al-Imraan 3:110]


                    However, as you have stated, some mufasireen do not relate this verse only to the companions, but also to the Muslim Ummah as a whole.

                    &peace.

                    ------------------
                    [i]"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Dear Ahmadjee,

                      First, you answered your own question. As the 'muhaditheen' were/are also humans & are as prone to mistake like Imam Bukhari (ra).
                      There have been thousands of muhaditheen who have checked and counter checked the ahadeeth through the centuries, in a surgical manner disecting each link in the chain, using the Science of Hadeeth.

                      Secondly, by narrowing down the the muhaditheen to Ahlus-Sunnah; you have automatically admited to the fact that any other scholor who does not believe in the same school of thought as yourself cannot be considered ... then who am I to say anything?
                      There are only two schools of thought, as far as i am aware: Sunni and Shi'ah, and i know you don't belong to the Shi'ah. So why not discuss the matter upon the Sunni thought of school?

                      1. The stoning of the adulterer; discussed here many times.
                      2. Death penalty for Murtadh; also discussed here.
                      Can you please be a little more specific, by quoting the hadeeth and the verse in the Qur'aan which it contradicts.

                      If you want, I will start PMing you the Hadiths from Bukhari that I have no clue about & you can start explaining to me the answers. Deal?
                      It's quite ok, i'm sure we can have a mature discussion in the forum. The moderators or admin can step in if the thread becomes corrupted with nuisance posts.

                      The main reason as to why i would like the discussion to take place on the forum is because i have made statements in public, thus if i have made any errors while posting, i would like my mistakes to be addressed in public. In this way, not only can i correct myself, but anyone who may have read my incorrect statements will not be misled and can also amend his/her understanding ... and may Allaah rectify my shortcomings. aameen.

                      Ahmadjee, i find it a little perculiar, if you don't mind me saying, from your statment:

                      I don't want to post them here & make a mockery out of Islam, like in this thread.
                      You seem quite concerned about people making a mockery of Islaam, yet you provide a public link to an old thread where this happened. I would have thought, if one is concerened about the Religion being ridiculed, he would keep the covers on previous instances where this has taken place... strange.

                      Anyhow, sorry, that was just a thought.

                      ---------------
                      "No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Husnain,
                        • Christian 'scholors' still beileve in the authenticity of the Bible. And their 'scholors' or 'muhadatheen', if you want to call them, have checked it over & over again. Does that means they are right?

                          Allah gave the authenticity of Quran & its considered 'kitab-e-Mahfooz' .. if such claim is made about the Hadiths; then please do provide your proof.
                        • Please research some of Fiqah & you will understand that their are way more than two schools of thought. I suggest that you read them as well. I am not a Sunni or a Shia.
                        • Stong of the adulterer and Killing the murtad are just two threads, if you search some more you will find others. If you don't want to go through the long posts, please let me know & I will open a thread directed towards you on the above mentioned topics.
                        • The mention of link was to remind you that there are things mentioned in Bukhari, that you consider absolute Authentic, in my opinion are blasphemous to say the least.

                        I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
                        - Robert McCloskey

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by ahmadjee:
                          Christian 'scholors' still beileve in the authenticity of the Bible. And their 'scholors' or 'muhadatheen', if you want to call them, have checked it over & over again. Does that means they are right?
                          Ibrahim says : Salaams to all

                          Hope I can share my views here, if that is not restricted by ahamadjee.

                          Ahmadjee, why this naïve question when you known they do not have an original text to verify its authenticity as Muslims have, even in the case of hadiths let alone the Qur’an?

                          Allah gave the authenticity of Quran & its considered 'kitab-e-Mahfooz' .. if such claim is made about the Hadiths; then please do provide your proof.
                          Ibrahim says: Do you have doubts about the Prophet (pbuh) having guided Muslims? Since he did guide them, will his instructions be part of the Qur’an or will it be kept separate from the Qur’an? Or no such records will be existent because it was not needed and Allah (swt) would have ensured its distortions in order to misguide Muslims ?

                          I am not a Sunni or a Shia.
                          Ibrahim says : yes, I am aware you are an ahmadi who prefers to ask insinuating questions against Islam but will not answer questions that exposes your deceit .

                          http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/...874.html]Stong of the adulterer[/URL] and Killing the murtad are just two threads, if you search some more you will find others. If you don't want to go through the long posts, please let me know & I will open a thread directed towards you on the above mentioned topics.
                          Ibrahim says: what is the problem in the laws being acted upon those found guilty by sane people who have sufficient witnesses/evidences to carry out such justice. ?

                          Do you think, Allah (swt) approved death for adultery only for Muslims at the time of Prophet Musa (as) and did not allow it at the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) ?

                          Kindly read what Allah (swt) approved.

                          3: 84 Say: "We believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and in (Books) given to Moses Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between one and another among them and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

                          85 If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah) never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).

                          I had previously provided sufficient evidence with this regard.

                          Remember

                          17:33 Nor take life which Allah has made sacred except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully [b] We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life: for he is helped (by the Law).

                          The mention of link was to remind you that there are things mentioned in Bukhari, that you consider absolute Authentic, in my opinion are blasphemous to say the least
                          Ibrahim says : what is blasphemous in the authentic hadiths?

                          Was salaam
                          Ibrahim

                          you cannot break the laws of Allah (swt) you can only break yourself against them

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Ibrahim:
                            ....
                            Do you think, Allah (swt) approved death for adultery only for Muslims at the time of Prophet Musa (as) and did not allow it at the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) ?

                            Kindly read what Allah (swt) approved.

                            3: 84 Say: "We believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and in (Books) given to Moses Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between one and another among them and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."
                            ......
                            Does this verse allow Prophet Mohammed PBUH to follow laws revealed to Prophet Moosa AH? especially when a law has been give in Quran?

                            Does that mean the you can follow either Quran or Torah?

                            Remember, laws may be changed from time to time (at one time people were stopped from fishing on Saturdays. remember?).

                            ------------------
                            May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Ibrahim Sahib,

                              You missed the boat, or the point that is.

                              Do you have doubts about the Prophet (pbuh) having guided Muslims? Since he did guide them, will his instructions be part of the Qur’an or will it be kept separate from the Qur’an? Or no such records will be existent because it was not needed and Allah (swt) would have ensured its distortions in order to misguide Muslims ?
                              [*]This is not even the focus of the discussion.

                              Those who do not believe in Hadiths at all (The Ahlay-Quran) and those who don't consider all Hadiths absolutely authentic (like myself) do not question (Naozobillah) the teachings of AnHazoor (saw).

                              What they do question is the authentacity that Prophet (saw) said those words in the first place.

                              As Husnain agreed that Imam Bukhari (ra) took a few out of 40, 000 hadiths to be in his opinion authentic. This doesn't mean that they actually are as he like any other human can make mistakes.

                              The other point you missed was that Quran has been testified to be the EXACT word of Allah. No such claim has been made about any books of Hadiths.

                              So, considering any Book of Hadiths absolutely authentic, in my opinion would be going too far.
                              [*] As far as the stoning of adulterer is considered, there are absolutely clear verses of Quran, mentioned in that thread. If you still take Bukhari's Hadiths over it then its your belief, not Islam.
                              I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
                              - Robert McCloskey

                              Comment

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