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    What Abrogates What?

    I had not realized this was such a big issue but apparently it is.

    Does Hadiths abrogates Quran and Sunnah? Or does Quran comes on top of everything? What's your understanding?

    While explaining your belief, please do provide to the point argument on which your belief is based on. I will appreciate if long cut and paste articles are not posted in this thread.
    I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
    - Robert McCloskey

    #2
    Its not a big issue, for the those who beleive in the principle, which is very simple:

    3:32 Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger.: But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith.

    Its Quran and then Sunnah, and then Ijtihad, nearest to Sunnah.

    3:105 Be not like those who are divided amongst themselves and fall into disputations after receiving Clear Signs: For them is a dreadful penalty,



    [This message has been edited by MiniMe (edited June 20, 2002).]
    بِن دانا پانی میں جی لواں
    بِن انَک میں جی نہ سکاں

    Comment


      #3
      Qur'an abrogates hadith. The criteria for deciding the "standing" of Hadith is simple: if it clashes with the Qur'anic ayah's then it is abrogated. Nothing can come close to abrogating the divine word of the Creator, as promised by the Almighty.

      Comment


        #4
        What about Qur'an abrogating Qur'an? Can one verse be taken above another if their meaning are apparently conflicting?

        MiniMe, I believe in the verses you stated. Just those who consider Hadiths over Quran or like those who believe in Quran only. Its the understanding of these verses that they disagree upon.
        I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
        - Robert McCloskey

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by ahmadjee:
          What about Qur'an abrogating Qur'an? Can one verse be taken above another if their meaning are apparently conflicting?

          MiniMe, I believe in the verses you stated. Just those who consider Hadiths over Quran or like those who believe in Quran only. Its the understanding of these verses that they disagree upon.

          AJ, the two groups you mentioned, wouldnt be following the principle, so they can understand what ever, out of these verses. I thing Quran is very simple in its message. And the Sunnah is the way of Quran.

          and your question about apparently conflicting ayats, so they are just seem apparently conflicting.

          I like this part of the ayat bold:

          2:3 Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;


          بِن دانا پانی میں جی لواں
          بِن انَک میں جی نہ سکاں

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by ahmadjee:
            What about Qur'an abrogating Qur'an? Can one verse be taken above another if their meaning are apparently conflicting?
            ....
            for example? if u do find any, then knowledge of which verse was revealed when would help in learning which verse is to be taken above which.

            ------------------
            May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

            Comment


              #7
              Changez bhai,

              You should come here more often. Please scroll down to read some of the comments in this thread

              Does anyone know how many verses of the Quran are believed to be abrogated? I heard different 'scholars' have different numbers.
              I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
              - Robert McCloskey

              Comment


                #8
                I guess, then I am somewhat with PA on this one. The "deen of Islam" was not brought by Prophet Mohammed PBUH. Quran tells us that Ibrahim AH was also a Muslim. So, believing in Allah SWT, His messengers, His books, His Angels (02:282), no differentiation among Prophets makes one a "believer", a Muslim.

                ------------------
                May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

                Comment


                  #9
                  That specific verse was not in question, just the concept of 'Abrogation' is.

                  There will be many who probably would not consider that specific verse abrogated like you, me and PA but do believe in the phenomenon of abrogation of Quran. (Naozobillah)

                  A very famous or rather common one is the mention of the Quran verses about alcohol.
                  I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
                  - Robert McCloskey

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Asalam ualikum W'r W'b;

                    ahmadjee, I believe you're taking the word (abrogation) out of context. I'll try my best to explain it to you, the rest I leave to you.

                    I think the ayah being talked about is:
                    • "Those who believe (in the Qurán), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve"

                    Correct? Muslim scholars are of the opinion that one ayah abrogates another or makes the other mansukh. This might seem like a strange word in relation to an ayah of the Quran, which is a complete book. However, there is a lot more to this principle than you think. It is the principle of takhsis or 'restriction'. One ayah states that all believers fear not (I am of the understanding that they were believers in their own time, before the advent of Islam), and then this ruling is further restricted by a more specific ruling:
                    • "And whoever desires other than Islam as a religion - never will it be accepted from Him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers."


                    Does that make it clearer? Abrogation doesn't refer to what you think it does.

                    [This message has been edited by Mahiwal (edited June 21, 2002).]

                    Comment


                      #11
                      it's interesting to see that this topic has been brought up again

                      let me tell my points of views:

                      first of all we have to be clear what sunnah is and what Hadith is.

                      for me Sunnah is what the Holy prophet used to say and what he used to do! For me there is not much difference between Sunnah and Quran, so nothing abrogates the other. If I follow Sunnah I'm also following the Quran and vica versa.

                      However, Hadith is merely the reporting of these Sunnah by human beings like you and me (not prophets or angels). And since these Hadith have been written/narrated by humans it is bound to be subjected (as are all things done by humans) to mistakes. It is also possible that (once the Hadith were written down) the next 1000 yrs or so, these books have been changed! The Quran only says that Allah is going to protect the Quran from corruption, it doens't state that the Hadith are also going to be protected from changes etc.

                      So therefor (because Hadith have A LOT of mistakes/contradictions in them) I use the Quran as a guidence and for me therefor the Quran comes above everything!


                      p.s. it would take too far and out of the context of this thread if i start a discussion on the validity of Hadith (note i do NOT doubt the validity of Sunnah! but i doubt the validity of Hadith- for the difference between these two for me see the discussion above)

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                      [This message has been edited by NeSCio (edited June 21, 2002).]
                      Why so serious ... ?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        as far as the matter is concerned about one Quranic verse abrogating the other:

                        isn't it strange to think that at a certain point Allah orders the ppl to do a certain thing and then some time later (= a relative short period later as compared to the centuries which have elapsed since the quran was revealed) Allah reveals another ayah telling the ppl to do it differently.

                        Personally I feel that all quranic verses have equal value and it is misinterpretation of certain verses because of which such issues arise about quranic verses abrogating each other

                        ------------------
                        This message was sponsored by the "Guppie of the Year"-Award Committee



                        [This message has been edited by NeSCio (edited June 21, 2002).]
                        Why so serious ... ?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          What about Qur'an abrogating Qur'an? Can one verse be taken above another if their meaning are apparently conflicting?
                          Ibrahim says: salaams to all

                          Dear all
                          Let me Insha Allah, put a stop to this before some people MURDER the Qur’an based on their whims and fancies.

                          Qur’an does not have contradicting or conflicting meanings, what it will have is two or more exchanges between Allah (swt) and the Prophet (pbuh) that are related to the same subject where the first exchange may have been superseded by the subsequent revelation when the situation that had been planned for by Allah (swt) is in progress or had materialized

                          Because none can change what was conveyed as the Qur’an, what was given in the first instance will also remain in it and removal of such verses will amount to omission, as such the Qur’an contains all the exchanges, that Allah (swt) had willed but only the final command or thought on that matter, should be taken into consideration as the final say on that matter..


                          abrogate in Islamic understanding means:- to treat as nonexistent because there is another CLEAR verse which is to be considered as the FINAL version on that matter .

                          How does one understand this?

                          It works according to human limitations, in other words when we are children, we can be guided only as children and allowed to certain actions that are befitting children but as we grow and have matured, we have to be treated like adults hence what was prescribed earlier when we were children will not apply when we become adults.

                          Why this method?

                          Because we human beings cannot and will not accept anything that is forced upon us . What we tend do or accept is, we can be gradually guided to or persuaded to accept it.

                          In other words, If Allah (swt) gave us the Qur’an as a complete Book that was dropped from heaven , without taking 23, years to put it into action by a Perfect man, whom He had chosen and guided . None of us will be Muslims today for most of us will consider reading that book a tiresome job, let alone follow it.

                          Some people seem to complain about my long posts in this forum, imagine If they had been given a BOOK to read, what will they say? Thus man by nature has to be trained into compliance step by step. At times this training involves stages of development where what can be approved at one stage cannot be approved at another stage.

                          Thus revelations will contain both what was approved at one stage and what was not approved at another stage, which may sound contradictory but are actually stages of development that led to the final stage of what is expected from mankind.

                          Insha Allah Hope that makes it Clearer,. Apart from that

                          Lets examine the verse in question which is being taken out of context and some Muslims may have been misled to believe that Christian and Jews have salvation, if they practiced Judaism or Christianity after the revelation of the Qur’an.

                          Lets look at surah Maida (5) which is the 112 surah in chronological order revealed in Medina , which has to be considered the final say concerning such ayats where it seems as though those practicing Judaism and Christianity will be accepted by Allah (swt) after Islam was established

                          NO! no such guidance is given by Allah (swt) .

                          Let me quote in context to establish the truth behind this matter .

                          5:68 Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law the Gospel and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith

                          5:69 Those who believe (in the Qur'an) those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures) and the Sabians and the Christians any who believe in Allah and the Last Day and work righteousness on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve.

                          5:72 They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O children of Israel! worship Allah my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah Allah will forbid him the garden and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help

                          5:73 They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy) verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

                          5: 78 Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected faith by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses.
                          Ibrahim says: thus it is clear the current Jews and Christians have been cursed for what they are doing and what verse 5:69 implies is with regards to those Jews and Christians who had FULLY obeyed the laws when their respective faiths were intact and have not been corrupted before other revelation were sent.

                          In this respect it is correct to say all other belief systems are abrogated when the under mentioned ayat was revealed.

                          Kindly read….

                          3: 85 If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah) never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).

                          Hope that helps

                          Regards
                          Ibrahim

                          whoever obeys the messenger indeed obeys Allah (swt)

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Some examples are the prohibition of alcohol. At first it was permissible to drink except when approaching prayer.


                            O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are
                            polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh
                            from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, than go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your
                            hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving. Surah 4 An-Nisaa:43



                            It was then later abrogated.


                            O believers! Intoxicants and gambling (games of chance), dedication to stones (paying tribute to idols) and division by
                            arrows (lottery) are the filthy works of Shaitan. Get away from them, so that you may prosper. Surah 5 Al-Maida:90


                            Note: this is not a contradiction of ayah in the quran. one ayah abrogates the other.
                            The asbabal nazoor would highlight this.

                            This is just one example. There are others, for which i dont have references.

                            One is where Rasool(saw) supposedly asked the sahabah of what he should do with the captives of war. but it goes against quranic ayah. so that hadith is not taken authentic.

                            cant think of any other examples right now

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Mahiwal,

                              I did not use the term 'abrogate' ... it is widely used by the "scholars". I even consider the term 'restricted' as being misguiding.

                              Quranic verses explain one another. Not even a punctuation mark, zair, zabar, paish etc of the Quran can be abrogated or restricted by any verse itself, or by any Hadiths (Sahih or otherwise) or by any reported Sunnah!

                              [This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited June 21, 2002).]
                              I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
                              - Robert McCloskey

                              Comment

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