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    Converts vilify Islam in book

    I did not appreciate the comments of the Baptist Mullah but I disliked - even more so the defense that was mounted by CAIR in which it claimed by citing the verse from quran [3:84] or Islam,
    "makes no distinction between itself and the ahle kitabis"

    Or, CAIR was suggesting that islam loved the christians & the jews and whoever said anything different does not understand Islam!

    CAIR and "most of muslims" know this is a lie; but, why spoil a good thing!

    Deep in their heart they knew how the ahle kitabis stacked up and is spelled out immediately in the following verse or [3:85]
    "whosoever follows other than Islam is a loser and his abode is hell-fire"

    Maybe, CAIR is better advised to just - speak the truth! It should know that people in the USA and elsewhere now understand Fundamentalist Islam better than they ever did! Here's a definite proof:

    Converts vilify Islam in book
    The two brothers, Muslim converts to Christianity, had been working hard to win over Southern Baptist leaders -- ex-SBC president Vines included -- to their views about Islam.

    Groomed hatred?

    excerpts from the above URL:-----

    As boys growing up in Ohio , the two converted to Christianity after being invited to a Baptist church in their neighborhood when they were teenagers

    Emir Caner said the break came at dinner when he was 12 years old. "I told him I could not pray to Allah anymore. I found Jesus Christ as my savior," Caner recalled. "He said, 'You either choose between me or your religion.' " Acar Mehmet Caner reconciled with his boys before dying in 1999.

    The boys attended Criswell College, where they first met Patterson, a man they both affectionately refer to as a surrogate father. They followed him to Southeastern seminary, where they both earned master's degrees . After the attacks of Sept. 11, Patterson encouraged them to write the book, and he read the draft before it went to the publisher.

    These days, the brothers, ages 31 and 35, have been booked solid for church appearances and are making the rounds among Christian radio and TV outlets

    Ibrahim says : By the shear amount of money and effort made by Christians , it is embarrassing to note that they were only able to achieve this.

    1) 12 year old and a 8 year old, being misled and stolen from their parents! Al they would have needed were some toys and candies to do the job.

    2) Given education and misguided by the misguided . How does an 8 year old or 12 year old know about Islam at this age and time living in ohio?

    3) After 23 years of hatred and brainwashing what else will they be saying except what they have been programmed to, by their mentor ?

    [This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited June 24, 2002).]


      looks like a very hateful book, and it probably will contribute to the growing Islamophobia trend. That's too bad.

      Ibrahim, is that true that the prophet was married to a 9-year old?



        Originally posted by Stu:
        Ibrahim, is that true that the prophet was married to a 9-year old?
        Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all

        Deat Stu,

        All your ancestors married that way and is still practiced in India to this minute.

        This practice was due to the system of life practiced in the past which was more nomadic and families wanted to arrange the marriage of their children in advance and more so because of revelations given in the hindu scripture ( which is the current corrupted teachings of prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) /Abraham / Brahma) as well as the Bible that any girl not betrothed can be Raped and will not be a crime if done .

        The Bible in fact altered this to indicate when such things happened the girl will become the rapist wife forever , which was still a problem for the women since it punished the women rather than the man.

        Anyway. All our forefathers would have married in this manner, which today seems absurd because we have progressed an adopted different values

        Hope that helps


        Learn form the past don’t live in it


          posted by Ibrahim:
          Learn form the past don’t live in it"
          INTERESTING comments coming from someone for whom the 7th century "WAYS" are for all eternity is now preaching:
          'Live in the PRESENT and not the past'

          Care to tell us - How Fundamentalist Islam may live in the present and not in the 7th century sunnah!

          Is that possible for you and still be considered - muslim?


            Originally posted by Adbulmalick:
            INTERESTING comments coming from someone for whom the 7th century "WAYS" are for all eternity is now preaching:
            'Live in the PRESENT and not the past'

            Care to tell us - How Fundamentalist Islam may live in the present and not in the 7th century sunnah!

            Is that possible for you and still be considered - muslim?
            Malaysia is one of the wealthiest countries in Asia, it has seen outstanding growth over the past two decades under its leader Dr. Mahathir Muhammad. Malaysia is by all means a modern state, it reduced its poverty from around 50% in 1982 to around 7% presently under the leadership of Mahathir. I am not saying that Malaysia is an ideal state, but it has certainly improved alot compared to other countries in Asia. So here's what Mahathir says about "fundamentalism":

            Mahathir's 'we're fundamentalist' shocked the West

            Malaysian PM says the leaders he met agreed with his explanation

            KUALA LUMPUR - Malaysia is an Islamic fundamentalist state as its policy is to abide by the fundamental teachings of Islam, Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad said yesterday.

            He told parliament he 'shocked' Western leaders with this explanation during recent visits to the United States and Europe.

            'When I said this they were shocked because they considered a fundamentalist as someone who is violent and did all kinds of bad things, but to me it is not,' said Datuk Seri Dr Mahatir.

            'If we hold to the fundamentals of Islam, we will not become bad as Islam exhorts us to be on good brotherly terms, united, do good things and hence it is not wrong to be an Islamic fundamentalist.'

            He was replying to a question from Parti Islam SeMalaysia (PAS) MP Hadi Awang, who is also chief minister of the state of Terengganu.

            Dr Mahathir, usually seen as heading a moderate Islamic government, said when he explained his stance to the Western leaders, they agreed that their use of the word 'fundamentalist' had been inaccurate.

            The Prime Minister, who has, this year, met United States President George W. Bush, British Prime Minister Tony Blair and Pope John Paul II among others, said many leaders had shown an interest in knowing more about Islam after the Sept 11 attacks.

            The status of religion in the government has become central to domestic Malaysian politics in the wake of the terror attacks and a crackdown on Islamic militants.

            The Chinese-based opposition Democratic Action Party has objected to Malaysia as an 'Islamic state', saying it was against the secular constitution and may make non-Muslims second-class citizens.

            The hardline PAS, on the other hand, has derided the Prime Minister's declaration as false and is putting it to the test by trying to impose strict Islamic shariah law in two states it controls.

            Dr Mahathir has repeatedly told non-Muslims they have nothing to fear from his definition of the country as 'Islamic', while accusing PAS of wanting to impose an oppressive Taleban-like regime. -- AFP, Bernama

            "He who lives upon hope only will die fasting."
            "When one bright intellect meets another bright intellect, the light increases and the Way becomes clear." - Rumi


              Note from moderator: If you wish to discuss another topic, please open an alternative thread.


              [This message has been edited by Sentinel (edited June 26, 2002).]



                [This message has been edited by Sentinel (edited June 26, 2002).]


                  Actually ppl mistake that Ahl-e-kitab and jews and christians are different... the thing is that Allah has said in Quran that the religion of all Prophets WAS when Quran Says:[3:85]
                  "whosoever follows other than Islam is a loser and his abode is hell-fire"

                  ofcourse it means the true followers of all Prophets sent by Allah. As said in Quran:
                  3:19 The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom (enchanted says: so what does this tell..this tells that ppl of the book actually followed ISlam in the begining but later as continued in this verse.)except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.

                  and again:
                  2:62 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

                  This clearly tells that religion of Ahl-e-kitab or ppl of the book was and is Islam.


                    Originally posted by Stu:
                    looks like a very hateful book, and it probably will contribute to the growing Islamophobia trend. That's too bad.

                    Ibrahim, is that true that the prophet was married to a 9-year old?

                    it is a big misconception!!! A nine year old!!.. iguess u ppl are talking abt hazrat ayesha because Hazrat khadija was 40 years old when she got married to Prophet Muhammad when he was only of his wives were all widows or divorcees. Well i know he got married to her when she was quite young...sum scholars put tha age b/w 14 and 18....but not 9!!!child marriages are condemned in islam!!!..and well u don't even reach puberty at nine. I mean if Prophet Muhammad married a 15 yr older woman than himself and married all other women ONLY after the death of his 1st wife where does the concept of lust comes...can ppl today marry such old women and divorcees and widows???

                    [This message has been edited by enchanted (edited June 25, 2002).]



                      [This message has been edited by Sentinel (edited June 26, 2002).]


                        Originally posted by Nagarjuna:
                        My ancestors
                        1.Did not claim to be final Prophets.
                        Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all

                        Nagarjuna dear, which means it is obvious you do not know Hinduism and its teachings.
                        According to Hinduism:

                        Kalki , the rider. This tenth and final incarnation of Vishnu is yet to appear on earth according to Hinduism . It is believed that Kalki will ride a white horse and wield a flaming sword with which he will destroy all evil. The coming of this fierce horseman will mark the end of this present age of evil, the kali yuga.

                        Kaliki Avtar

                        Q. Hindus believe that the final Avtar will visit this world in Kali-Yug and they are still awaiting Kalki Avtar or the Final Avtar. But the Muslims believe that our Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) is the final and last messenger of Allah and no more Prophets are going to come. Could you shed some light on this so that we could remove the
                        misconception among our friends?

                        Srimad Bhagvat Maha Puran

                        Hindus believe that there are a total of 10 Avtars (In some of their traditions, this number is 24) for the eradication of evils. All but one of them have had their visits, in the past ages i.e. Satyug, Treta-Yug and Dvapar-Yug. The present Yug is Kali-Yug in which the last and the final Avtar is tovisit this world as Kalki Avtar. The starting of the present age Kali-Yug for which Kalki Avtar was destined, dates back to a time ranging from many thousand years to a few lakh years from now, according to different Hindu scholars. Hindus are still waiting for Kalki Avtar or the Final Avtar.

                        Now let us examine the signs of the Kalki Avtar in Srimad Bhagvat Puran. (12:216).

                        "After the expiry of a great part of Kali-Yug, the nature of the people will resemble that of donkeys. They will engulf themselves in carrying the burden of the material life. At such a time, for the protection of the truth, Bhagvan will take Avtar."

                        There is a general misconception among Hindus that God Himself visits the earth as Avtar. It can be conclusively proved by the Hindu scriptures that the visit of a Prophet (Pbuh) of God was allegorically described as God’s own visit. This, again is a lengthy topic. Anyway, see the next relevant shlokas.

                        Shambhalgramm ukhyasya Brahmanasya Mahatmanah; Bhavane Vishnu Yashsah Kalki

                        "In those days there will be a great man of good character (in the family of) the chief priest in ‘Shambhal’ village, by the name of Vishnu Yash. Kalki would take birth in his home." (12:2:18)

                        Now let us analyses the above shloka

                        1. Kalki will be born in ‘Shambhal’ village.

                        There are three meanings of the word ‘Shambhal’, as per Sanskrit grammar
                        [Refer. pp.29-30; Dr.Ved Prakash Upadhyay; Kalki Avtar Aur Mohammad Sahab]

                        (a) the place of peace. (Makkah is known as Darussalam which means ‘the home of peace’).

                        (b) Which attracts people. (There is no other place in the world except Makkah where such a large gathering, at a time, of about 25 lakh people is made, from all over the world. In fact if there were not restrictions from the respective governments, the gathering would have been in crores despite the financial hazards. In fact the word ‘Makkah’ has become the proverb for the centre of attraction in other languages also e.g.., ‘Lords is the Mecca of cricket’).

                        (c) A place near water (Makkah was in fact inhabited in the land of desert because of bursting out of a spring ‘Zam-zam’ there. Moreover Makkah is only a hundred kilometres away from the sea-shore).

                        2. The name of the father of Kalki Avtar would be Vishnu Yash. Vishnu is not the name of a god in a trinity. It is the name of one of the attributes of One God (Rigveda 2:1:3; also R.V. 1:164:46).

                        Yash means slave. Vishnu Yash means the slave of God. (The name of the father of Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) was Abdullah which means the slave of God. He was a man of a very sound character, is a part of history. Vishnu Yash would be a man of character, was prophesied in the above shloka).

                        3. Kalki Avtar would be born in the family of the Head-Priest of Shambhal village. (The grand father Abdul Muttalib of the Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) was the Head Priest of Ka’aba in Makkah city).

                        Ashva mashugamaruhya Devadattam Jagatpati; Asin assadhudaman amashtaishvaryaguna nvitah.

                        "He is the lone hope of all good qualities, the man of Ashtsiddhi (eight divine characteristics). He, the Jagatpati (leader of the world), riding the horse named Devadat will destroy the wicked by his sword'. (12:2:19)


                        1. The man of eight divine characteristics. [Mahabharata has described the eight characteristics as : Pragya (divine knowledge). Kuleenta (belonging to noble family), Indriyadaman (to keep all senses in one control), shrut (divine revelation), Parakram (Physically strong), Abhubha****a (the temperament of speaking less), Dan (giving alms to poor), Kritagyata (acknowledging favour of any benefactor).

                        I don’t think I need giving you the detailed proof of each one of the above qualities abundantly found in Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh). I advise you to collect at least one specific example of each one of the above from the like history of the Prophet (Pbuh) before talking to your friends. Ask any Maulvi or religious scholar if you are unable to quote specific events yourself in support of above.

                        2. He will be Jagatpati. The equivalent Urdu word for Jagatpati is Sarwar-e-Alam which is very popularly used for the Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh).

                        3. He would be a horse rider. Horses are no more used in the battles in the present day world, so the hope of the arrival of a horse rider to lead in the battle field to destroy the wicked in the present age of tanks and planes, is ridiculous. We shall have to search for the Kalki Avtar in the horse’s age.

                        4. Sword would be his weapon. Again, hoping in future, when even the nuclear arsenal and missiles may become obsolete, for a personage who is wielding a sword is ridiculous. You will certainly have to go back to a few centuries in search of Kalki Avtar.

                        5. He would ride a Devadat (divine) horse. The Prophet (Pbuh) had ridden a divine horse, Burraq to visit Jerusalem and the heavens. The relevant event can be seen in the books of Hadiths.

                        6. He would destroy the wicked. No man on the face of earth, in his own life time, in a short span of two decades has such a record of conquering vast empires of evils as is accredited to the Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh).

                        Vichrannashuna Chhonyam Hayenapratimadhyuti; Nripalingachhde Dasyun Kotisho Nihanishyati

                        "His whole body would emit incomparable splendour. He on his speedy horse shall ride along the earth and shall destroy the robbers disguising as kings." (12:2:20)


                        1. Emission of splendour from his body. The following two Hadiths would suffice for the
                        explanation; "Narrated Mohammad, s/o Ammar s/o Yasir that Rabi d/o Muawwiz told her; son, I had you seenhim (the Prophet), you would have thought you had seen the bright sun." (Darami)

                        "Narrated Jabir s/o Samra thus: I was gazing at the face of the Prophet (Pbuh) of God on a moonlit night. I kept comparing the face of the Prophet with moon and I found his splendour was greater than of the moon". (Tirmizi, Darmi) Qur’an has called the Prophet (Pbuh) by the name Sirajam Munira (the brilliant sun) (Q. 33:46)

                        2. Destroyed the robbers in disguise of kings. (All the tribal heads of Makkah were robbers in disguise of kings. They had accumulated fortunes by making a whole community of people untouchable. The worst sufferers of untouchability in India are in a far better condition than the untouchable slaves of that society. The Prophet’s (Pbuh) revolution in two decades brought about a change unparalleled in history so much so that Bilal, who was dragged bare-bodied on the burning sand with a chain around his neck, was elevated to such heights that he was revered and called Sayidna (our master) by the highest of the high castes.

                        Ath Tesham Bhavishyanti Manansi Vishdani Vai; Vasudevangaragati punyagandhan ilasprisham; Paurjanapadanam vai Hatesvakhildasyushu

                        "When all the robbers will be destroyed, the hearts of the city and the whole country would be filled by righteousness and piousness because the atmosphere will be surcharged by the fragrance of his body and they will be able to receive that fragrance". (12:2:21)


                        1. The whole country will be turned into a picture of piety. (This is a page of history now and you can quote to your friends as many examples as you wish).

                        2. The fragrance of his body will surcharge the atmosphere. (There can be two meanings of the above stated characteristic, (a) His body actually emitted fragrance. Following two Hadiths testify to this fact.

                        "Reported Anas thus: I have never smelt a musk or amber whose fragrance was more
                        pleasant than the fragrance of the body of the Prophet (Pbuh)." (Bukhari, Muslim)
                        "Narrated Jabir thus; When the Prophet (Pbuh) passed through a street, then anyone
                        passing through that street afterwards recognised from the fragrance spread them from his body, that the Prophet (Pbuh) had been there." (Darami)

                        (b) His spiritual fragrance surcharged the atmosphere and affected those present. There are a number of events recorded in history when only a glimpse of the Prophet’s (Pbuh) person changed the heart of the visitor.

                        These were the prophecies about the holy Prophet (Pbuh) in Srimad Bhagvat Maha Puran whose author is said to be Maharishi Ved Vyas. You may refer to the following books for the original texts and more detailed descriptions.

                        1. Srimad Bhagvat Maha Purana (Hindi translation with text); Khand (Volume) II, Gita press, Gorkhpur (price Rs.55/-) (The publications of Gita press are available almost everywhere).

                        2. Kalki Avtar aur Mohammad Sahab (Hindi). The book is not easily available. You may write and enquire directly of the author, Dr. Ved Prakash Upadhyay, Head of the Deptt. of Sanskrit, University of Chandigarh. This 60 page booklet was priced at Rs.1/- in 1970.

                        II. Kalki Puran

                        Shambhale Vishnuuyashso Grahe Prdurbhavamyaham.

                        "He (Kalki) will be born in the home of Vishnuyash (Abdullah) (in the family of) the Head Priest of Shambhal (Land of peace or Darassalam or Makkah). (Kalki Purana - 2:4)

                        Chaturbhir Bhratribhirdev Karishyami Kalikehayam

                        ‘O’ Deva (God) 1 along with the four companions he will destroy the devil" (2:5)


                        Prophet Mohammad’s four main companions are popularly known as ‘Chaar Yaar’. They are Abu Bakr, Umar, Usman and Ali. They became the Caliphs of Islamic empire, one by one after the Prophet.

                        Yat Yuyam Bhuvam Devah Swanshavatrane Ratah

                        "He will be helped in the battle field by the Devatas (angels)" (2:7)

                        There are many stances of this in the life of the Prophet. One such example is being quoted here from the book of Hadith.

                        "Narrated Sa’ad s/o Abi Waqas thus : I saw two person in white clothes on the right and left of the Prophet of God Pbuh in the battle of Ohud. Both of them were fighting fiercely. I never saw them before or after that. They were the angels Gabriel and Mechael." (Bukhari, Muslim)

                        Sumatyam Vishnuyashsa Garbhma dhatt Vaishnavam

                        He will be born in the home of Vishnuyash (Abdullah) in the womb of Sumati” (2:11)


                        The name of his mother would be ‘Sumati’. The meaning of the word ‘Sumati’ or Somvati is ‘the bearer of peace’. The name of the mother of Prophet Mohammad Pbuh was Aamina which means exactly the same- “the bearer of peace’.

                        Dvadashyam Shiklapakchasya Madhava Masi Madhavam

                        "He will be born on the 12th day of Shukla Pakch of the month of Madhav (Vaisakh)" (2:15)


                        12th day of the Shukla Pakch means the 12th day of the moon. Prophet Muhammad’s (Pbuh) birth day is celebrated on the 12th day of Rabi Ul Awwal by a lunar calendar.

                        Reference books for the above:-

                        1. Kalki Purana, with original text and translation

                        You can write to ‘Shir Venkateshwar Press, Khemraj Shrikrishna Das Marg, Mumbai-4" for the above Purana.

                        2. Kalki Avtar Aur Muhammad Sahab, by Dr.Ved Prakash Upadhyay.

                        III. Bhavishya Puran

                        The name of the Prophet Muhammed (Pbuh) mentioned in this Puran is “Mahamad “. The prophecies are very clearcut. All the following shlokas are being quoted from “Prati Sarg Parva-3; Khand (part) 3; Adhyaya (ch.) 3” of the Bhavishya Purana and hence, only the shloka numbers are being mentioned against each shloka instead of its full reference.

                        Etasminnantire mlechha Achar Yen samanvitah; Mahamad iti Khyatah Shishyashakhsamanvitah.

                        "In the mean time a malechha (non-Aryan) Acharya (Spiritual teacher) will appear with the bunch of his disciples. His name will be Mahamad" (5)

                        Nripashchair Mahadevem Marusthalnivasinam; Gangajalaishcha Sansnapya Panchgavyasamanvitali; Chandanadibhirabhyarchya Tushtav Mansa Haram. Bhaojraj Uvach –Namaste Girijanath Marusthalnivasine; Tripurasurnashaya Bahumaya Pravartine. Mlechhairguptaya Shuddhaya Sachchidanandrupine; Tvam Mam Hi Kinkarma Viddhi Sharnarthamupagatam.

                        "Raja Bhoja after giving this ‘desert dweller’ Mahadeva (great divine), a bath of Ganges water and Panchgavya, worshipped him by offerings of Sandal etc. and with Shiva’s name in heart, (he said); Namaste (I make obeisance to thee) O’ desert dweller! O’ ye ! The killer of devil, the bearer of great miracles, protected from the (enemy) malechhas, pious, the manifestation of Sachchidanand (truth, consciousness and bliss) Shankar. Consider me a slave in your protection.” (6 to 8).

                        Uvach Bhupatim Premna Mayamadvisharadah; Tav Devo Maharaja Mam Dasatvamagatah. Mamochhishtam Sambhujiyadyatha Tatpashya Bhonrip; Iti Shrutva Tatha Drishtva ParamVismayamagatah. Mlechhadharme Matishchasittasya Bhupasya Darune;

                        "Seeing the stone idol carried by Raja Bhoj, he (Mahamad) will say (about the idol); ‘It, whom you are worshipping, can eat my leftover’. By so saying he will actually show the same to Raja. Hearing and seeing this, Raja will be very much perplexed and he will adopt the faith of malechha dharma." (15 to 17)

                        Ratrau Sa Devarupashcha Bahumayavisharadah; Paishacham Dehmasthaya Bhojrajam Hi Soabravit. Aryadharmo Hi Te Rajansaivadharmottamah Smritah; Ishagya Karishyami Paishacham Dharmadarunam. Lingachchedi Shikhahina Shmashru dhari Sa dushakah; Uchchalapi Sarvabhakchhi Bhavishyati Jano Mam. Vina Kaulam cha Pashvastesham Bhakchhaya Mata Mam; Muslenaiva Sanskarah Kushairiv Bhavishyati. Tasmanmusalvanto Hi Jatayo Dharmadushakah; Iti Paishachdharmashcha Bhavishyati Maya Kritah.

                        "In the night, a messenger of God, in the guise of a ghost will say to Raja Bhoj. O’ King! Although your Arya religion is said to be the best of all religions, even then I, with the order of Isahvar shall enforce the religion of meat eaters. The circumcised, without a Choti ( a tail on the head), beard, loud proclaimer, revolutionary, and repealer of all religions, shall be my special follower. He will eat all animals except pig. As (today) the purification is sought by Kusha (the holy shrub), he will purify through warfare. Thus the Muslims shall denounce the corrupt religions. Such religion of the meat-eaters will be originated by me." (23 to 27)
                        Ibrahim says: In addition to all this go here to find out who built the Kaa’bah

                        2.Did not say every body else should marry only four women but they themselves are exempt from it.
                        Ibrahim says: again it is pity you don’t know your scriptures so kindly read

                        "Now a Brahmin may take four wives in the direct order of the (four) castes." -- Visnusmrti 24:1.

                        Ibrahim says: This is still the approved laws as appearing in the Qur’an (Islam) , the latest and final revelation for mankind. A man is allowed to marry a maximum of four wives PROVIDED he can maintain them on an equal footing OTHERWISE he should marry ONLY ONE WOMAN

                        It was further approved in Hinduism that when a man has been some what cheated by the parents of the bridegroom, he can marry both of them (the woman shown to him as well as the woman he ended up marrying) at the same bride –price. Which clearly tells us that it was approved for a man marry two woman at the same time it further establishes that it was the Man who had to give a dowry to the Bride and NOT the other way round as it is practiced in Hinduism today.


                        One thing mixed with another should not be sold, nor anything that is spoiled, deficient, far away, or concealed If one girl is shown but another is given to the bridegroom, he may marry both of them for the single bride-price; that is what Manu says." -- Manusmrti 8:203-4.

                        Ibrahim says: In fact a man can even complain that his wife is NOT a VIRGIN and end up collecting compensation as well as a new wife after exploring the one he just married in Hinduism

                        Ibrahim says: It was further approved that kings and rulers can have more than the approved four wives


                        When the king has taken counsel about all of this with his counsellors, and when he has exercised and bathed, he should enter the harem at noon to eat. There he should eat food over which Vedic verses that dispel poison have been chanted, food that has been well tested by kitchen servants who are like his second self, who cannot be seduced and who know the time (for food). And he should clean all of his articles with waters that destroy poison, and he should always be circumspect about wearing jewels that destroy poison. Well-tested women whose clothing and ornaments have been thoroughly cleaned should attentively caress him with fans, water, and incense. In the same way, he should be careful about his carriage, bed, seat, and food, and about bathing, anointing and adorning his body, and all his ornaments. When he has eaten, he should take his pleasure with the women in the harem; and when he has taken his pleasure at the proper time, he should think again about the things he must do. In full regalia, he should inspect the armed forces again, and all the vehicles, weapons, and ornaments. When he has performed his twilight rituals, he should arm himself, and in the inner chamber he should hear about the movements of his spies and those who report secrets. When he has dismissed these people and gone to another inner chamber, he should again enter the harem to eat, surrounded by women. When he has again eaten something there, his spirits lifted by instrumental music, he should lie down and then arise at the proper time free from fatigue. A king should follow this regime when he is healthy; but when he is not well, he may entrust all of this to his retainers." -- Manusmrti 7:216-226.

                        Ibrahim says: Now if this was not enough , Lord Krishna had 16,108 wives, Lord Visnu & Brahma also had multiple consorts and Ksatriyas are recorded in the itihasas (Mahabharata/Ramayana/etc.) as having as many as thousands of wives & thousands of progeny. Even Rama’s father had four wives .

                        Now Lord Krishna not only have 16108 wives he also had 10 children from each of them and ended up murdering all of them because he cannot cope up with his responsibilities.

                        3.Did not say that only those who follow them go to heaven and the rest go to hell
                        Ibrahim says: Again another erroneous point as the scriptures reveals otherwise
                        Visit to have your answers.


                        the sin against life is hoping for another life and not discerning the truth behind the present life.


                          br Ibrahim : Christians of today do not believe in the Oneness of Allah(SWT), i.e., they believe in the trinity making Jesus(AS)into a white Anglo saxon idle with a beard. CAIR needs to re-think its responses or rather re-formulate its responses. I think CAIR as an organization needs to strive for Allah(SWT) acceptance rather than acceptance from US politicians.


                            3. He would be a horse rider. Horses are no more used in the battles in the present day world, so the hope of the arrival of a horse rider to lead in the battle field to destroy the wicked in the present age of tanks and planes, is ridiculous. We shall have to search for the Kalki Avtar in the horse’s age.

                            4. Sword would be his weapon. Again, hoping in future, when even the nuclear arsenal and missiles may become obsolete, for a personage who is wielding a sword is ridiculous. You will certainly have to go back to a few centuries in search of Kalki Avtar.
                            intriguing logic Mr. Ibrahim..

                            care to explain your wait of the Mahdi or the second coming of Christ based on your favourite hadith stories which talk about warfare with a sword??

                            JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee


                              Ibrahim bhai, what a fantastic and informative post, Masha'Allah. Thank you and keep it up You've stolen the show.

                              "He who lives upon hope only will die fasting."
                              "When one bright intellect meets another bright intellect, the light increases and the Way becomes clear." - Rumi