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    women in christianity and islam

    Peace be upon all of you!
    i found this article in my mail box ...as somebody forwarded it to me...this is not my own research so i can't say much...but i have always been voicing that women are given more liberty in Islam and well this strengthened my view...I know there are a few christians here...i want them to read it and where ever they find that it is not true...well u are most welcome to tell me so

    Garden of Eden's incident
    christian's perspective

    When the woman (Eve) saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband (Adam), who was with her, and he ate it...Then the man (Adam) and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. But the Lord God called to the man, "Where are you?" He (Adam) answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid." And he (God) said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?" The man said, "The woman (Eve) you put here with me-she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it." Then the Lord God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate." To the woman he (God) said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." To Adam he (God) said, "Because you listen to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life." Genesis 3:6-17

    what Quran says abt it
    (God said):"O Adam! You and your wife dwell in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as you wish: but do not approach this tree, or you run into harm and transgression." "Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them (Adam and Eve), bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before): he (Satan) said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest you should become angels or such beings as live for ever." "And he (Satan) swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser." "So by deceit he brought about their (Adam and Eve) fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the Garden over their bodies. And their Lord called to them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy to you?" "They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: if You do not forgive us and do not bestow upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be lost"
    Quran 7:19-23


    Female Gender vs. Male Gender
    Christian view

    "...if a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days...but if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks..."
    Leviticus 12:2-5

    islam's view
    "To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. He creates what He wills. He bestows female children to whomever He wills and bestows male children to whomever He wills. Quran 42:49
    "He who is involved in bringing up daughters, and accords benevolent treatment towards them, they will be protection for him against Hell-Fire." Prophet Mohammed


    The Female Spiritual Essence
    Christian view


    "I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare." "Look," says the Teacher, "this is what I have discovered: "Adding one thing to another to discover the scheme of things-while I was still searching but not finding- I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all."
    Ecclesiastes 7:26-28

    islam's view
    "And Allah sets forth, as an example to those who believe, the wife of Pharaoh: behold she said: 'O my Lord! build for me, in nearness to You, a mansion in the Garden, and save me from Pharaoh and his doings, and save me from those that do wrong," "And Mary the daughter of Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants)." Quran 66:11-2

    "Heaven is at the feet of the mothers."

    Prophet Mohammed


    A Woman's Right to Education
    christian view


    "let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law, and if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for woman to speak in the church."
    1Corinthians 14:34-35

    islam's view
    Seeking knowledge is obligatory on every Muslim man and Muslim woman.
    Prophet Mohammed


    Right to Inheritance
    christain view


    "Say to the Israelites, 'If a man dies and leaves no son, turn his inheritance over to his daughter...'"
    Numbers 27:8

    islam's view

    "From what is left by parents and those nearest related there is a share for men and a share for women, whether the property be small or large, -a determinate share."
    Quran 4:7


    Dressing Modesty / Head Covering
    christian view


    "Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head...If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head" 1 Corrinthians 11:3-6
    "I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God"

    1 Timothy 2:9-10

    islam's view

    "O Prophet! Tell your wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
    Quran 33:59

    "...they (believing women) should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women...or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex..." Quran 24:31


    Polygamy
    christian view


    "After he left Hebron, David took more concubines and wives in Jerusalem, and more sons and daughters were born to him." 2 Samuel 5:13"
    He (Solomon) had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines..." 1 Kings 11:3

    "And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah." Genesis 4:19

    "If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the first-born son be hers that was hated: then it shall be, when he maketh..." Deuteronomy 21:15

    "if he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall her not diminish." Exodus 21:10

    islam's view

    "If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one... to prevent you from doing injustice."
    Quran 4:3


    Prohibition in Marriage
    christian view


    "Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living."
    Leviticus 18:18

    islam's view

    "Prohibited to you (for marriage) are: -your mothers, daughters, sisters...and two sisters (the wife and her sister) in wedlock at one and the same time..."
    Quran 4:23


    Divorce
    christian view


    "...Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."
    Mark 10:11-12

    islam's view

    "O Prophet! When you do divorce women, divorce them at their prescribed periods, and count (accurately) their prescribed periods: and fear Allah your Lord..."
    Quran 65:1


    The Divorcee & Widow
    christian view


    "...who marries the divorced woman commits adultery."
    Matthew 5:32 "'The woman he (the priest) marries must be a virgin. He must not marry a widow, a divorced woman, or a woman defiled by prostitution, but only a virgin from his own people.'"

    Leviticus 21:13-4

    Islam's view
    "If any of you die and leave widows behind, they shall wait concerning themselves four months and ten days: when they have fulfilled their term, there is no blame on you (marrying widows) if they dispose of themselves in a just and reasonable manner..."
    Quran 2:234

    #2
    Enchanted

    Its nice compilation to show bigotory of non muslims who intentionally or unintentially blame ISLAM on the contrary of giving less rights to women.

    When put, side by side comparision it is very clear the differences in Islam .Even when it might appear to be anti women rights, but in explanation it is more fair than bigotory of celebecy, pedophilia, abuse & authoreterian citadel of powerfull catholic & other christian sub groups which form the religion of most influential natins of the world.

    ------------------
    "Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards." -- Unknown

    Comment


      #3
      Theory vs practice doesn't always play out like selected scripture from respective Holy Books may indicate. There are far fewer fundamentalists in Christianity today, hence their adaptation of modern views of sexual equality and liberation.

      There are the obvious drawbacks to the modern western women. But most of them would argue that they are glad they are at least allowed to make their own decisions. Muslim socities generally restrict the freedoms of women. One could argue that they may be better for it, but westerners want a freer, more secular society where decisions are not made by others (government, society, religion) who think they know better.

      The list of restrictions and abuses toward woman are found throughout the Muslim world. The sharia government of the Taliban pefected the subjugation of women. In Saudi Arabia women can't drive cars or hold goverment jobs. In UAE women can't hold cabinet posts. In Iraq, there are public beheadings of Kurdish women accused of being prostitutes, of opposing the regime or of being related to an opponent of the regime. Acid throwing is on the increase in Pakistan...

      All this may because of customs or culture, but nevertheless, it is a reality for the women who have to live with it. Again, I think this has as much to do with modernism as it does with religion.



      [This message has been edited by Seminole (edited June 15, 2002).]

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Seminole:
        Theory vs practice doesn't always play out like selected scripture from respective Holy Books may indicate. There are far fewer fundamentalists in Christianity today, hence their adaptation of modern views of sexual equality and liberation.

        There are the obvious drawbacks to the modern western women. But most of them would argue that they are glad they are at least allowed to make their own decisions. Muslim socities generally restrict the freedoms of women. One could argue that they may be better for it, but westerners want a freer, more secular society where decisions are not made by others (government, society, religion) who think they know better.

        The list of restrictions and abuses toward woman are found throughout the Muslim world. The sharia government of the Taliban pefected the subjugation of women. In Saudi Arabia women can't drive cars or hold goverment jobs. In UAE women can't hold cabinet posts. In Iraq, there are public beheadings of Kurdish women accused of being prostitutes, of opposing the regime or of being related to an opponent of the regime. Acid throwing is on the increase in Pakistan...

        All this may because of customs or culture, but nevertheless, it is a reality for the women who have to live with it. Again, I think this has as much to do with modernism as it does with religion.

        [This message has been edited by Seminole (edited June 15, 2002).]
        Seminole


        Just few points

        Like the sophisticated countries where many christian live i.e. Europe & N.America there problems (mainly womens ) are not as GROSS as that of Islam who are mostly in poor 3rd world countries.News reporting to discriminations is ghoulish & heinous perceptively like all reporting by the WEST of the Middle east ,Asia & Africa where most muslims live.A western Christian reporter is quick to judge or reven missintrepet non religous issues with cukltural thingy .The female circumscion ,Shariat law in Nigeria are all e.g. of altleast Miss reporting if not biased prejudicial reporting.

        Women i the west would never like the life style of less developed 3rd world country women EVEN IF THE RELIGION WAS REVERSED.So what keeps women happy not there christianity in the west but economic prosperity whicg keeps even musli women from not minding to live here with great effort to maintain there religion.WHY DO YOU THINK ONE CAN LIKE AMERICAN LAWS & STILL NOT DISLIKE ISLAMIC LAWS.Americanm laws are not Christian laws & as long as it doesnt forbid practice of islam by muslims ,muslims feel no contradiction to there faith the way western make it out to beAS IF IF YOU WANTTO WEAR HIJAB YOU SHOULD GO TO ARABIA .Why ?There is nothing in theconstitution ,the ultimate rule book of American which says so .

        THE CAUSE & EFFECT IS VERY COMPLEX.You r asigning some goodness to christianity without any direct co relation just as assigning other poverty ,literacy related ,political tyranny related problems as being effect of islam again without proving the cause & effect

        ------------------
        "Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards." -- Unknown

        Comment


          #5
          Actually this post was not to tell how the westerners or the muslims treat their women.

          It was supposed to tell what the two religions say about women.

          And seminole the religion Islam is not restricted to this world...we see beyond it...and work for the hereafter...and so whoever is not practicing what islam says...Only Allah will deal with him....But if christians don't follow what their religion is saying...and make their owm laws whenever they think that this not right...then how is your lord going to judge u ?

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by enchanted:
            I know there are a few christians here...i want them to read it and where ever they find that it is not true...well u are most welcome to tell me so

            The article is somewhat of a misnomer as it clearly was not drawn up by a Christain. It includeds quite a few ideas non-Christian but rather part of the Jewish custom. It is understandable that Christianity and judaism sometimes gets confused since both use the Torah/Old Testament.

            Let's look at some points that is NOT a Christian's perspective:

            1. Lev.12v2-5: Jewish custom. In Christianity a woman is NEVER unclean and can ALWAYS attend ANY meeting of Christians.

            2. Eccl.7v26-28: The "Teacher's" (Solomon's) perspective and not Christian's. The Teacher/Solomon stated it is just his PERSPECTIVE and not fact. Maybe he was disenchanted by all his wives.

            3. 1Cor.14v34-35: This scripture is about women teaching IN church. Do Islam allow women to teach men in the Mosque? Nowadays women may teach in most Christian Church denominations and even become the head of the church. Some like the Roman Catholic church does not permit it. Christians are divided on this issue.

            4. Num.27v8: Jewish custom not part of Christianity. The rule was made so that the inheritance does not get lost outside the husband lineage if no male child exist, as only males could inherit in general.

            5. Polygamy: Christians do not accept polygamy. Some Christian-like sects (Mormons for example) accept polygamy.

            6. Lev.21v13-14: Jewish law w.r.t. priests and not a Christian's perspective.

            Hope above clears up any misconceptions.

            Comment


              #7

              Ibrahim says: greetings of peace to one and all

              Dear Enchanted and Old man, just to share what I know

              Originally posted by The Old Man:

              Let's look at some points that is NOT a Christian's perspective:

              1. Lev.12v2-5: Jewish custom. In Christianity a woman is NEVER unclean and can ALWAYS attend ANY meeting of Christians.
              Ibrahim says : Sorry Old man, I cannot accept UNTRUTH, so let me guide you since you seem to swallow whole passages in the Bible when it suits you

              Kindly read

              Matthew 5: Christ saidÖÖ.

              17. "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.

              18. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

              19. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


              20. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

              Ibrahim says yet, you declare what Paul declared even though Christ said the very opposite, you donít suppose Paul was sent to contradict Christ do you?

              2. Eccl.7v26-28: The "Teacher's" (Solomon's) perspective and not Christian's. The Teacher/Solomon stated it is just his PERSPECTIVE and not fact. Maybe he was disenchanted by all his wives.
              Ibrahim says: Old man, why say such things when you claim the Bible is the word of God?


              Kindly read:-

              Proverbs 9: 13. The woman Folly is loud; she is undisciplined and without knowledge.
              14. She sits at the door of her house, on a seat at the highest point of the city,
              12. calling out to those who pass by, who go straight on their way.


              Did you know the Hindus also have the same sayings?

              3. 1Cor.14v34-35: This scripture is about women teaching IN church. Do Islam allow women to teach men in the Mosque? Nowadays women may teach in most Christian Church denominations and even become the head of the church. Some like the Roman Catholic church does not permit it. Christians are divided on this issue.
              Ibrahim says: Where does it imply only TEACHING in church , old man? which still means the Bible said that women should not talk in churches or ask any questions but only ask through their husbands , yet you and others chose to disobey it according to your whims and fancies. Instead of accepting it as fact you try to say otherwise!

              Kindly read

              1 Tim 2: 11. A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.

              10. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.



              4. Num.27v8: Jewish custom not part of Christianity. The rule was made so that the inheritance does not get lost outside the husband lineage if no male child exist, as only males could inherit in general.
              Ibrahim says; Old man it says turn it over to the daughter and not the wife or split it amongst all. Meaning the wife and daughters gets left out completely which is what Hindus do


              Kindly read before making claims that you will have to hide from.

              Number 27:

              7. "The daughters of Zelophehad are right; you shall give them possession of an inheritance among their father's brethren and cause the inheritance of their father to pass to them.

              8. And you shall say to the people of Israel, 'If a man dies, and has no son, then you shall cause his inheritance to pass to his daughter.


              9. And if he has no daughter, then you shall give his inheritance to his brothers.

              10. And if he has no brothers, then you shall give his inheritance to his father's brothers.

              11. And if his father has no brothers, then you shall give his inheritance to his kinsman that is next to him of his family, and he shall possess it. And it shall be to the people of Israel a statute and ordinance, as the Lord commanded Moses.'"




              5. Polygamy: Christians do not accept polygamy. Some Christian-like sects (Mormons for example) accept polygamy.
              Ibrahim says Old man, sorry kindly read

              Duet 25: 5. If brothers are living together and one of them dies without a son, his widow must not marry outside the family. Her husband's brother shall take her and marry her and fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to her.


              Or


              Duet 22: 28. If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,

              he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

              1 Timothy 3: 2. Now a bishop must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, dignified, hospitable, an apt teacher,

              1Timothy 3:12. Let deacons be the husband of one wife, and let them manage their children and their households well;


              Ibrahim says: meaning others can marry more as no such restrictions are being stated in the current corrupted version of the Gospels , donít you think so? But Christian even restricted the marriage of priests, what shame, how long will these people do as they wish whilst claiming they are following what God revealed?

              Now Old man, I am only sharing what is written in the Bible so donít run off claiming I am twisting the bible or have insulted you

              Regards
              Ibrahim

              a timber fit for pillars should not misused for chopsticks


              [This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited June 17, 2002).]

              Comment


                #8
                As usual, Ibrahim forced the topic into his normal Christian bashing exercise. I will respond to some errors the poor man makes:

                1. W.r.t. Ibrahim's problem with the Law of Moses: ALL the apostles and disciples and elders and ANYONE that had ANY connection with Jesus Christ WHEN HE LIVED, decided unanimously under the influence of the Holy Spirit of God Almighty at a meeting that the Law as given to Moses WILL NOT BE REQUIRED OF NEW CONVERTS TO THE RELIGION. Please read Acts chapter 15 for more details. Paul was but one person there and DID NOT CHAIR THE MEETING. The meeting was held to once and all respond to people that felt exactly as Ibrahim feel over the issue. ANYWAY, if the Law given to Moses is still necessary to be kept as advocated by Ibrahim, why doesn't Ibrahim keep it himself....

                2. Ibrahim said: Old man, why say such things when you claim the Bible is the word of God? Because I see no problem in making the statement, dear Ibrahim.

                3. Ibrahim said: Did you know the Hindus also have the same sayings? And your point is......?

                4. 1Cor.14v34-35: Ibrahim said: Where does it imply only TEACHING in church , old man?

                I really did think you had a better grasp of the English language, dear Ibrahim! Let me highlight the part that you did not understand: As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. Too accustomed to argue rather than READ what is stated?

                What is your take on my statement about Islam's position of women teaching in Church/Mosque?

                5. Ibrahim said: yet you and others chose to disobey it according to your whims and fancies

                Interesting to see that you are clairvoyant since I never stated my own position on the issue.... Since you did not read my full response, I will restate it: "Nowadays women may teach in most Christian Church denominations and even become the head of the church. Some like the Roman Catholic church does not permit it. Christians are divided on this issue.

                6. Num.27v8:Ibrahim said: Old man it says turn it over to the daughter and not the wife or split it amongst all. Meaning the wife and daughters gets left out completely which is what Hindus do

                What the Hindus do is their problem. Anyway, the issue is a Jewish issue and not Christian. Let me for the sake of those that you want to misguide explain the full issue:

                While Israel was still in the plains of Moab, across the Jordan from Jericho, and after the tribes were numbered (chapter 26) so as to receive proper inheritances in Canaan, the 5 daughters of Zelophehad of the tribe of Manasseh, came to Moses to inquire about the inheritances for families which had no sons as their father died in the desert. Up unto this point only sons could inherit. Also please note that the main issue was the inheritance of land. Moses took their case up with God and the answer was: What Zelophehad's daughters are saying is right. You must give them property as an inheritance among their father's relatives and give their father's inheritance over to them. Please note that ALL the daughters actually inherited in this case.
                7. Polygamy: I restate since Ibrahim did not read: Christians do not accept polygamy. Some Christian-like sects (Mormons for example) accept polygamy. The Scripture that Ibrahim quote (Deut.25/22 ALL has to do with the rules for the Israelites NOT Christians. Ibrahim's deduction as per 1Tim.3 is exactly why certain Christian-like sects do believe polygamy to be in order. The long and short of the issue is that whatever is required for a leader in the church should obviously also be required from every follower who is earnest with his religion and who, one day, will succeed the leaders. BTW, I only stated here what is the general Christian view.

                8. Ibrahim said: But Christian even restricted the marriage of priests, what shame

                SOME denominations prohibit the marrying of priests, like the Roman Catholic Church. Their viewpoint is that the work for God should keep one so busy that one would not have enough time available to properly look after their families. They refer to the following scriptures: Matt.19v12 & 1Cor.7. If you wish to discuss this issue further, feel free to open a new thread.

                9. Ibrahim said: Now Old man, I am only sharing what is written in the Bible so don't run off claiming I am twisting the bible or have insulted you

                Ibrahim, time permit, I will continue to keep you honest as to true Bible interpretation...

                It is written: And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by The Old Man:
                  As usual, Ibrahim forced the topic into his normal Christian bashing exercise. I will respond to some errors the poor man makes:
                  Ibrahim says: Greetings of peace to one and all

                  I guess you will NEVER mature and learn to face the facts my dear Old man, will ya? Every time it is one accusation after another, first you say I misquote verses , later that you say I misinterpreted verses , after that you say I am insulting you , after that you say I bashing Christianity, what next ?

                  Not once have you proven anything so far, except reveal your FEAR and go into hiding claiming, you are busy and or I am going in circles, what a shame!

                  Havenít I proven that you are deceiving? Or does you conscience not bother you or lost altogether?


                  Now this is a religious forum, people come here to identify the Truth and clarify their doubts, IF you cannot face the truth, that is not a problem but do not make allegations that are silly and untruthful .

                  I am not here to convert you are destroy your faith, I merely establish the truth, whoever God willed, will be able to accept it and whoever shaitan has overcome will reject it.

                  Thats all, so please, discuss the topic and if you want to play your dirty splice game again, that only reveals your FEAR. Now be strong and do not cut away the verses that are not to your liking.

                  1. W.r.t. Ibrahim's problem with the Law of Moses: ALL the apostles and disciples and elders and ANYONE that had ANY connection with Jesus Christ WHEN HE LIVED, decided unanimously under the influence of the Holy Spirit of God Almighty at a meeting that the Law as given to Moses WILL NOT BE REQUIRED OF NEW CONVERTS TO THE RELIGION.
                  Ibrahim says: Old man religion is based on sound reason and sound logic not on your understanding as above.

                  First who were the disciples of Christ? Were they not new converts? So since they had to practice the laws , why would other converts not need to practice the law. IF Christ observed the laws of Moses why would the Holy spirit say otherwise?

                  So you see, it means you and Christians have misconceived because Paul led you to that understanding. Why did Paul do this?
                  Simple, he was after the wealth from the gentiles, since Christ vanished and the disciples were in disarray as to what will happen next. They were anticipating everything that Christ foretold to happen immediately, what they did not know is that God does act according to our wishes but according to His desire and knowledge.
                  Now, the problem was, Paul started claiming he was like Christ and teaching his own Gospel to the gentiles away from Jerusalem, whereas Christ came only for the lost Jews in Judea and sent out 72 disciples for the rest of mankind with intent to reach them later. But that failed because the Jewish priests desired to kill him and put a stop to his mission when they attempted to do it.

                  Paul saw great opportunity and took it when Christís mission ended abruptly , his problem was the disciples did not accept it and they were in control of Jerusalem but he managed to convinced them on the basis that , look they are new , so it will take time for them to become law abiding Jews, as such, let us give them the easier ones and after they have become strong in faith they will be able to adopt the other laws at their own time ( which will be resolved because Christ will be here by that time to guide them) .

                  This is logical and practical, since that is how we humans progress in our life, we study little at a time and progress as we grow.

                  Now your problem old man is that you do not realize that Christ was given all laws of Moses and also given details on which laws are to be abrogated after his commission.

                  But it never included abolition of covenants that had been established as ever lasting from the time of Abraham. Which Christ himself had to practice .

                  Now let me illustrate this so that you will understand

                  Genesis 17:10. This is my ( Godís) covenant with you ( prophet Ibrahim aka Abraham) and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.

                  Ibrahim says: So did Moses keep it, ? yes he did , did all the prophets keep it, yes they did. Did Christ keep it? yes he did , Did Muhammad keep it? , yes he did! ( peace be upon them all)

                  In fact every Muslim keeps this covenant till this day.

                  Now who abolished it? Paul did! and every Christian fails to follow it because of what Paul did and said and wrote as his Gospel. The Gospel of untruth that is found in the current Bible.

                  Thus the error was not Christ or all the disciples or the holy spirit but Paulís own works who was the false prophet that Christ warned about.

                  Please read Acts chapter 15 for more details. Paul was but one person there and DID NOT CHAIR THE MEETING. The meeting was held to once and all respond to people that felt exactly as Ibrahim feel over the issue.
                  Ibrahim says: my dear old man. You need to THINK rationally

                  Paul claimed he had a meeting with Christ and of sudden he had been chosen as a Christ for the gentiles. Which was un provable but beyond the scope of the disciples to reject.

                  Paul claimed :

                  Galatians 2: 20. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

                  Paul managed to avoid contact wit the disciples and practiced his deception for sometime ( 3 years) before meeting the disciples of Christ.

                  Kindly read:

                  Galatians 1: Paul wrote:

                  17. nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus.

                  18. Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days.

                  19. I saw none of the other apostles--only James, the Lord's brother.

                  20. I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.

                  21. Later I went to Syria and Cilicia.

                  22. I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ.

                  23. They only heard the report: "The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy."

                  Ibrahim says: So you see, this man preached his own version without ever meeting Christ and after doing it for three years he had to visit the disciples because of conflict in teachings.


                  The conflict arose when what he taught and what the disciples taught was clashing and his followers were getting wind of what the disciples are teachings

                  Acts 15

                  1. Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved."

                  2. This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.

                  he even writes to the Galatians not to follow the gospel of the disciples but to follow his teachings.

                  Kindly read:

                  Galatians 1

                  6. I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospeló

                  7. which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.

                  8. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

                  Ibrahim says: thus this conflict would have let him to finally face the disciples by going to Jerusalem to settle the matter, here the disciples may have allowed Paul to preach only parts of the Gospel to new converts in order to establish step one of the faith and subsequent steps to be established later.

                  Even though Acts implies many disciples were present Paul claims he only met Peter and James. And only peter and James have given their opinions in that council of elders.

                  Now note Jamesís comment as to why he agreed with paul.

                  Acts 15:15. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

                  16. "`After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, [/b]

                  Ibrahim says : this was an error because this was not said by Christ but an earlier revelation before the destruction of Jerusalem for the final time ( which took place when the Jews tried to crucify Christ)
                  Tell me old man, where is this recorded in the Bible/Gospel as Christís words ? so James was in error and got convinced by Paul

                  Kindly read:

                  Acts 15:17. that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'
                  18. that have been known for ages.
                  19. "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.

                  Ibrahim says So James on the basis of misconception felt, lets allow the gentiles to have an easier law.

                  Which Christ had denied altogether earlier when he said:

                  Matthew 5:20. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

                  Thus what the council decided was contradictory to what Christ preached.

                  ANYWAY, if the Law given to Moses is still necessary to be kept as advocated by Ibrahim, why doesn't Ibrahim keep it himself....
                  Ibrahim says and what do you think Muslims do? Donít you know they practice the laws as given by the Final Prophet as prophesied by Christ.


                  2. Ibrahim said: Old man, why say such things when you claim the Bible is the word of God? Because I see no problem in making the statement, dear Ibrahim.
                  Ibrahim says which means you are capable of altering the true teachings according to your whims and fancies, which is why the Gospel was abrogated in the first place.

                  3. Ibrahim said: Did you know the Hindus also have the same sayings? And your point is......?
                  Ibrahim saysĒ My point being, that is why they got rejected, meaning they altered the teachings of prophet Ibrahim (pbuh), just like you are altering the teachings of prophet Moses (pbuh), hence both the Hindus, and Christians are on the same path to destruction.

                  4. 1Cor.14v34-35: Ibrahim said: Where does it imply only TEACHING in church , old man?

                  I really did think you had a better grasp of the English language, dear Ibrahim! Let me highlight the part that you did not understand: As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. Too accustomed to argue rather than READ what is stated?
                  Ibrahim says: hellooo! Why snip off Timothy which I quoted, or does timothy not make sense to you? Back to your dirty game of snipping away verses when you get caught huh?

                  What is your take on my statement about Islam's position of women teaching in Church/Mosque?
                  Ibrahim says: Women in Islam do teach in mosques to children and women folk but not to men and they can ask questions at various forums/seminars where they are able to participate and they can pray to God on their own.


                  5. Ibrahim said: yet you and others chose to disobey it according to your whims and fancies

                  Interesting to see that you are clairvoyant since I never stated my own position on the issue.... Since you did not read my full response, I will restate it: "Nowadays women may teach in most Christian Church denominations and even become the head of the church. Some like the Roman Catholic church does not permit it. Christians are divided on this issue.
                  Ibrahim says: Old man, what I am saying is that , it cannot be allowed because your Bible says so, get it?

                  6. Num.27v8:Ibrahim said: Old man it says turn it over to the daughter and not the wife or split it amongst all. Meaning the wife and daughters gets left out completely which is what Hindus do
                  What the Hindus do is their problem. Anyway, the issue is a Jewish issue and not Christian.
                  Ibrahim says : which is where you are wrong because Christ was not a Christian but a Jew and he came to tech Islam in the Jewish perspective and not Christianity as you have ended up believing. Now I repeat according to that law the wife and daughters did not received inheritance, now go and compare what God revealed in Islam as how inheritance is shared amongst al in varying portions.


                  7. Polygamy: I restate since Ibrahim did not read: Christians do not accept polygamy. Some Christian-like sects (Mormons for example) accept polygamy. The Scripture that Ibrahim quote (Deut.25/22 ALL has to do with the rules for the Israelites NOT Christians. Ibrahim's deduction as per 1Tim.3 is exactly why certain Christian-like sects do believe polygamy to be in order. The long and short of the issue is that whatever is required for a leader in the church should obviously also be required from every follower who is earnest with his religion and who, one day, will succeed the leaders. BTW, I only stated here what is the general Christian view.
                  Ibrahim says: Old man that is why I am disagreeing because the general Christian view is based on errors and what the Bible teaches and what the prophets practiced were in total agreement about polygamy being approved by God.

                  It is written: And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
                  Ibrahim says : That is a misconception , if you want to discuss this , start new thread or try challenging me about it, by the Grace of God, I will expose this misconception.

                  In the mean time

                  It is written:

                  Matthew 7:21.

                  "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

                  22. Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

                  23. Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


                  Luke 6: 46. "Why do you call me, `Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?


                  Regards
                  Ibrahim

                  we get what we deserve not what we desire

                  Comment


                    #10
                    1. Ibrahim said: Old man religion is based on sound reason and sound logic not on your understanding as above.


                    What you stated might be the biggest difference between Islam and Christianity. It might also be the reason why you are unable to come to grip with the essential truths of Christianity. This difference is that according to you, religion (and I assume you also mean Islam) is something that needs to be reasoned out while in Christianity, faith is the essential component.

                    2. Interesting theory you have on why you feel everyone should still keep the Law of Moses including the rules and regulations. Unfortunately, as Christians, we can't follow theories but have to follow what Jesus Christ taught to his immediate disciples and which is summarised in Acts chapter 15 and Tit.2v11-14.

                    3. Ibrahim said: First who were the disciples of Christ? Were they not new converts? So since they had to practice the laws , why would other converts not need to practice the law. IF Christ observed the laws of Moses why would the Holy spirit say otherwise?

                    And yet the disciples, who sat at the feet of Jesus Christ while he taught them, under the influence of the Holy Spirit DID make the decision.

                    4. Ibrahim said Now who abolished it? Paul did!

                    Nonsense, dear Ibrahim, as I proved to you out of Acts chapter 15.

                    5. Ibrahim said: Paul claimed he had a meeting with Christ and of sudden he had been chosen as a Christ for the gentiles. Which was un provable but beyond the scope of the disciples to reject. Ibrahim says: So you see, this man preached his own version without ever meeting Christ and after doing it for three years he had to visit the disciples because of conflict in teachings.

                    Nonsense. The person that initiated the Gospel to the Gentiles were in fact Peter, see Acts10 and 11. I quote Acts.11v18: When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has even granted the Gentiles repentance unto life"

                    Paul had ample time to be taught by the disciples before he left Jerusalem (see Acts.9 and 11). There were actually NO doctrinal conflict between Paul and the other disciples before or after Acts.15.

                    6. Ibrahim said: Even though Acts implies many disciples were present Paul claims he only met Peter and James. And only peter and James have given their opinions in that council of elders.


                    Nonsense to say Paul and Barnabas only saw Peter and James. Please read Acts 15 again. There were much discussion and the whole assembly gave the thumbs up for what were decided according to the letter that was drafted.

                    7. Ibrahim said: Now note James's comment as to why he agreed with paul. Acts 15:15-16. Tell me old man, where is this recorded in the Bible/Gospel as Christ's words ?

                    Who said it was said by Christ? Your imagination? James said "The words of the prophets"

                    8. Ibrahim said: so James was in error and got convinced by Paul



                    9. Ibrahim said: Matthew 5:20.Thus what the council decided was contradictory to what Christ preached.

                    What Christ said was that no-one can fully comply to everything in the law. Christ went on to say that if you want to keep the law, you have to be perfect as only God is perfect Matt.5v48. Exactly, dear Ibrahim, why Jesus Christ had to die for our sins so that we can be saved by grace and not by the law. Since Christ opened the disciples' mind to all the scriptures, I have to accept that they know what they did during the council meeting. See Luke.24v45.

                    10. Ibrahim said: and what do you think Muslims do? Don't you know they practice the laws as given by the Final Prophet as prophesied by Christ.

                    Christ did not prophesy that a final prophet will follow him - period.

                    11. The Old man said originally: Eccl.7v26-28: The "Teacher's" (Solomon's) perspective and not Christian's. The Teacher/Solomon stated it is just his PERSPECTIVE and not fact.
                    Ibrahim said originally: Old man, why say such things when you claim the Bible is the word of God?
                    The Old Man answered: Because I see no problem in making the statement, dear Ibrahim.
                    Ibrahim said: which means you are capable of altering the true teachings according to your whims and fancies, which is why the Gospel was abrogated in the first place.

                    There is no clash between what I originally said and what is taught in the Bible. Your statement is therefor irrelevant.

                    12. 1Cor.14v34-35: Ibrahim said: Where does it imply only TEACHING in church , old man?

                    Ibrahim, don't try and twist out of this one. You said that 1Cor.14 did not specifically state that it was intended for teaching in the church only, and I have proven you wrong.

                    Let us now look at your additional verse 1Tim.2v11-12: Paul stated "I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man". According to Paul, women should not dictate to men, but should exercise their rights to teach, prophesy/preach, pray and do other things under the authority of men. Because certain Christian denominations feel that Paul's stand on the issue were mainly relevant to his day and age, they have now extended all these rights to women - even the running of whole church gatherings, etc.

                    13. Ibrahim said: Women in Islam do teach in mosques to children and women folk but not to men and they can ask questions at various forums/seminars where they are able to participate and they can pray to God on their own.

                    Exactly what Paul taught! Now you and Paul agree. There might be hope for you yet....

                    Comment

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