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    Is Christianity the only way?

    Ibrahim says; Greetings of Peace to one and all

    Let me shift this thread here, and not muddy up the other thread.

    Originally posted by wonderingandwaiting:
    Well well well, this seems to be the thread for me, because I came here wishing to learn about Islam and I have been reading the bible. I want to know the truth, and I would really appreciate both views on this.
    Dear wonderingandwaiting, you are most welcome to this thread or any other thread, that you may chose or you wish to start, all in the hope of understanding the scriptures and what exactly they are saying. I would recommend you understand the scriptures and not views of the practitioners. Which at times can be misleading.

    As I have been taught the bible says Jesus is the only way to the Father,
    Ibrahim says: This is not the case in essence, what had led you to that conclusion is the Gospel, which is known as the New Testament, which BTW is a translation of the Greek manuscript that must have originated from an Aramaic/Hebrew manuscript. Which has been grossly manhandled and mistranslated

    Thus what the originals conveys and what the translations conveys cannot be verified because the originals had been lost.

    Having said that, The Old testament in essence will say,

    the only way to the Father at the time of Moses (pbuh), would be through Moses (pbuh)

    And the only way to the Father in the time of Christ (pbuh) is through Christ (pbuh)

    And the only way to the Father at the Time of Muhammad (pbuh) will be through Muhammad (pbuh)


    Thus, If one truly understand the entire Bible, the above words will not cause them to err but when one misconstrue those words, one may end up thinking without Christ they will be No salvation for mankind. Which is indeed an erroneous notion propagated by Christians today.


    what does the Quran say aboout this, if you do not mind letting me know. I want to know both views before I make a decision on what to believe.

    Ibrahim says : The Qur’an says at the time of Christ, indeed that was the only way but when the Jews tried to kill him, God raised him and protected him from any harm and within 600 years after that event , when there was no more followers of Christ practicing Islam as taught by Christ on this planet , God sent his Prophesied messenger as prophesied by Christ (pbuh) and as foretold to Moses (pbuh) in the Bible to guide mankind again.

    Hence after the revelation of the Qur’an the way has been changed to, only through the final prophet and no other way.



    You see Christ (pbuh) himself preached this and you can use the Gospel to verify it for yourself :-


    John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.


    John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.


    Ibrahim says: Thus only as long as Christ was present on this planet he was the light of the world and the only way. hence when the Jews tried to put out this light, God ensured another light was sent to another tribe, such that the light will ever remain on this planet and that light is the Qur’an which was established by the final Prophet as foretold by Christ before he departed from this planet.

    Hope that helps

    Regards
    Ibrahim

    Enlightenment is the principal of living; not a spiritual climax



    #2
    Hello, nice to speak with you. In regards to your last comment. I would like to have the quotes and or scriptures to back this up, where Jesus says there is another to come after him and would be the last one. Because from what I understand Jesus was the messiah and not just a prophet. Also could you please give me some quotes on prophecies from Muhammed that have come to pass as well. Does Islam support Muhammed as a prophet or a Messiah? It seems to me there was a difference between the two. Although I am still learning about Islam and know very little about it, I will really need your help on this.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by wonderingandwaiting:
      Hello, nice to speak with you. In regards to your last comment. I would like to have the quotes and or scriptures to back this up, where Jesus says there is another to come after him and would be the last one. Because from what I understand Jesus was the messiah and not just a prophet. Also could you please give me some quotes on prophecies from Muhammed that have come to pass as well. Does Islam support Muhammed as a prophet or a Messiah? It seems to me there was a difference between the two. Although I am still learning about Islam and know very little about it, I will really need your help on this.
      In the book of Islam, Muhammad is a prophet with the sole mission to reveal the message.


      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by wonderingandwaiting:
        Hello, nice to speak with you.
        Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all

        Dear wonderingandwaiting, most happy to hear from you too. Let me address your questions separately, since I have a habit of being CLEAR, which means, my posts can get very lengthy, the seekers will appreciate it and the others may complain it is lengthy. So just digest what is comfortable to you but just let me offer you what I can offer you.

        In regards to your last comment. I would like to have the quotes and or scriptures to back this up, where Jesus says there is another to come after him and would be the last one.
        Ibrahim says: Good question, in order to understand this you must understand that Christ (pbuh) was not the first creation , hence what ever information given by the Creator will exist from the First creation. Here our records when we use the Bible will start from the time of Moses (pbuh) . Thus I will quote the relevant quotes from the Bible, which are many, as the same information had been given by many prophets and to many prophets at various timeframes.

        .(first let me explain why I use the word "Christ" (which means "Messiah") and avoid the word "jesus" you see that is an invented name and would be disrespectful when used to address such a honored person like Eesa son of Mariam (pbuh) which is his true Name as recorded in the earlier manuscripts and the Qur'an too. Like I said, I need to make myself CLEAR, so that I do not misguide you but tell you what is True and what is untrue, thus there is No Jesus, but there was Eesa (pbuh))

        Now to answer your question………….kindly get a hold of your Bible and turn to :-

        Isaiah 46: 9. Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. 10. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. 11. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do. 12. Listen to me, you stubborn-hearted, you who are far from righteousness.

        Ibrahim says: kindly ask yourself the following questions.

        1) Who is "That Man from the East"?
        2) Who is "That Prophet" ?
        3) What is his name ?
        4) What happened to him?

        Ibrahim says lets find out and lets begin with a few more prophesies of the Old and New Testaments, like above.

        Kindly turn to Deuteronomy, chapter 33, verse 2, Moses prophesied some events:

        "And he said. The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; He shined forth from Mount Paran, and he came with ten thousand saints. From his right hand went a fiery Law for them."

        The prophesy states several things and they seem clear in meaning. It is accepted that The Lord spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai. The Lord would then manifest Himself at Seir, which is very much near Jerusalem. It is clear that this speaks about the coming of Eesa (Jesus). Then The Lord would manifest Himself 'at Mount Paran' and come with 'ten thousand saints'.

        Bible scholars say that Paran is the area around Mecca and Medina in Arabia. What was this shining forth of The Lord at Mount Paran, which is Arabia? Muhammad (pbuh) was born in Mecca and migrated to Medina. The first revelation came to Muhammad (pbuh) when he was inside a mountain cave. No one else can this elude to except the Prohet Muhammad (pbuh) . Also, when Muhammad (pbuh) came victoriously into Mecca after being driven out by the rulers, he came in with exactly ten thousand of his closest companions or 'saints'.

        Not Convinced? Here is another Prophesy

        There is another prophesy about one from Paran in Habakkuk 3:3-7:

        "God came from Teman, and the Holy One from Mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens and the Earth was full of his praise. And his brightness was as bright as the light. He had horns coming out of his hands; and there was the hiding of his power. Before him went pestilence and burning coals went forth at his feet. He stood and measured the Earth. He beheld and drove asunder the nations; the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: His ways were everlasting."

        Who else from Mount Paran drove the nations asunder in all history as Muhammad (pbuh) did? The Romans who tried to put Christ (peace be upon him) on the cross surrendered to the companions of Muhammad (peace be upon him). The prophesy says that his ways would be everlasting', which is what Muslims establish when they follow the Prophet (pbuh) in every detail. Muslims are commanded to stick as close to the ways of Muhammad (pbuh) as possible, as the Quran (the Revelation) and the Sunnah (Prophet Muhammad's way of doing things) form the essential sources of guidance for Muslims.

        Not convinced? Here is another PROPHESY.

        In Isaiah 9: 6

        For unto us a child is born , unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

        1) Note how he is named " wonderful counselor" which would translate to Mohammed in the Arabic and Hebrew language.

        2) note how the "Government will rest on his shoulder" and indeed the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) ruled Arabia with a fiery law and his companions conquered the Romans who wanted to crucify the Christ.

        3) the mighty God should be considered allegorical, since God is not born to any man or women.

        Not convinced? Here is another PROPHESY.

        In Isaiah 28 he is again mentioned

        9. Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

        Indeed this Prophet spoke with stammering lips for he was illiterate and in an Arabic language ( another tongue) and he taught the Qur'an which took 23 years to complete and it was reveal line after line , here little they a little, which contained precept after precept for all of mankind..

        Not convinced? Here is another PROPHESY.

        Even Jesus attested to these events after himself, according to Matthew 21:43-46:

        "Therefore I say unto you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth fruits thereof. And whosoever falls on this stone shall be broken, but on whomsoever it falls, it will grind him to powder."

        Who was the one from Paran whom all of this speaks about? Muhammad (pbuh) was the direct descendent Of Ishmael, the son of Abraham. It was said by God about Ishmael according to Genesis 17:20 that Ishmael was blessed and would be made a great nation: "I have blessed him...and will make him a great nation."

        Which other descendent of Ishmael, from Paran can these things speak of? Yet there are more mentions of 'The Prophet'.

        Still not convinced?

        According to Deuteronomy 18:18-19, God was speaking to Moses about the Israelites:

        "I will raise them up a prophet among their brethren, like unto thee , and I will put my words in his mouth and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall not hearken unto the words that he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."

        Who are the brethren of the Israelites? The brethren of the Israelites are the Ishmaelites, since Ishmael was the brother of Israel. Muhammad (pbuh) was the direct descendent of Ishmael. This prophet was to be like unto Moses as prophesied above and Christ will not fit into this no matter what.

        The Qur'an says: [Qur'an 73:16].

        "We have raised a prophet amongst you like unto the prophet (Moses) we sent to Pharaoh,"

        In fact, both Muhammad (pbuh) and Moses (pbuh) were very similar, when their lives are examined:

        Both grew up orphans; both were bestowed prophet hood in middle age and both married; both were driven out by their people. In fact, both Muhammad (pbuh) and Moses (pbuh) brought complete laws of life,


        Further in Acts 7:37. This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me ; him shall ye hear. 38. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

        Here again he is mentioned and indeed the Prophet Mohammed ( pbuh) was taught by an angel in a secluded cave (church) where he frequented in the mountain. (wilderness)

        whereas Jesus only had come to reform and revive the strength of the Law of Moses, as he himself states in Matthew 5:17-18:

        17. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them
        .
        18. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

        And Jesus did not fulfill everything, clearly as he spoke in John 16:12-13:

        "I have yet many things to say to you but you cannot bear them now. However, when the Spirit of Truth is come, he will guide you into all truth; for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that he speak. And he will show you things to come."

        Muhammad (pbuh) was commanded thus by God in Qur'an 5.-68:

        "Oh Messenger, convey to the people what has been revealed to you from your Lord."

        Qur'an 26:

        192 Verily this is a Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds:

        193 With it came down the Spirit of Faith and Truth

        Qur'an 16:

        102 Say the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in truth in order to strengthen those who believe and as a guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims


        The entire Qur'an is the exact words of God spoken through Muhammad (pbuh), without translation or editing. The Qur'an is the only scripture alive today in the original language in which it was revealed.

        Continuing with the prophesy, God said He would put His words in the prophet's mouth and he shall only speak that which he is commanded. Muhammad (pbuh) received revelation and it was branded on his heart' (as he himself used to explain). The Qur'an attests that Muhammad (pbuh) does not speak of his own desires, but that which he is commanded to speak.

        Muhammad's life was meticulously recorded by his companions so much so that they recorded literally how he would brush his teeth. And throughout his entire life, no one saw anything questionable in his character nor was he ever accused of being contradictory or anything but truthful and trustworthy, even by his enemies! Non Muslim studies of Muhammad (pbuh) would also concur on this point.

        The final prophet would speak God's words in God's name. The Qur'an contains parts or chapters and each chapter begins with the words, "In the Name of Allah, Most Beneficent, Most Merciful".

        Then, in the very next verse after the last prophesy, God gives the criterion by which we can judge the truth of The Prophet from the liars and false prophets (Deuteronomy 18:20):

        "But that prophet which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other Gods, even that prophet shall die."

        This states clearly that the false prophet shall not succeed. Did Muhammad (pbuh) succeed? Well, he managed to turn a group of infighting tribes into the strongest force in the world, close to 1.5 to 2 billion people follow him today, countless others have throughout history, and more and more are accepting this message now. When he was informed of the close to end of his life by God, Muhammad (pbuh) gave a farewell speech, in which he asked the people whether he had accomplished his mission of warning the people and establishing the Law of God, and the people resoundingly answered affirmatively. In fact, the death of Muhammad (pbuh) was so peaceful that the last thing he did before leaving this world was brush his teeth!

        Still not convinced?

        Now we go to Song of Solomon, 5:10-16. A title of Muhammad (SAW) was "Habeebullah" meaning The beloved of Allah'.

        Here is the prophesy:

        10 "My beloved is white and ruddy.
        11 His head is purest gold, his hair is wavy and black as a raven.
        15 (describe his eyes, cheeks, lips, arms, body and legs )
        16 His mouth is sweetness itself. He is ________" This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.

        The reason I left the blank is because the word used in the original Hebrew language is stunning. The word is "Muhammadim'. "He is Muhammad", it reads. The translators decided to translate the name to 'altogether lovely' in the English versions, but anyone can go and check it in any Hebrew text.

        Romanized Hebrew :- 5:16

        16. xikow mamtaqiym wkulow maxamadiym zeh dowdiy wzeh ree`iy bnowt yruushaalaaim.


        Also, this description exactly describes the appearance of Muhammad (pbuh) according to the descriptions written by his companions. Please, I urge you to think and make your own decision. This could be a coincidence, that could be a coincidence, but how many coincidences can there be?

        In John 14:15-16, Jesus says:

        "If you love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray to the Father and He shall give you another Comforter."

        It is important to note that in other places, Jesus speaks of himself as a Comforter (Paraclete' from the ancient Greek language), and in this passage the same word is used, 'Paraclete'.

        In John 16:7, we have:

        "Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. However, if I depart, I will send him to you."

        The apostles do not want him to go, obviously, but he says that if he does not go, the Paraclete cannot come. There is a plan, and it is part of it that he must go away.

        In John 16:12-14, Jesus says:

        "I have yet many things to tell you, but you cannot bear them now. Howbeit, when the Spirit of Truth is come, he will guide you into all truth; for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear shall he speak. And he will show you things to come; and he shall glorify me."

        Muhammad (pbuh) truly glorified Christ. In fact, without believing in Christ, one cannot be a Muslim. Qur'an states that Christ was one of the greatest 'anbiya (Arabic meaning 'prophet, the word Christ used to describe himself). He was born of a miraculous birth from the chaste virgin Mary and he proved himself by many miracles. Truly, Muhammad (pbuh) was the Paraclete (or prophet) or Spirit of Truth as foretold by Christ as one to guide into all truth.

        The Qur'an bears clear witness to this, saying in 17:82:

        Say [to the people] that the Spirit of Truth has come and falsehood is vanquished.

        Still not convinced?

        In the time of Jesus, the Jews were expecting the coming of three individuals as we read in John 1:19-21:

        "Now this was John's (the Baptist) testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, I am not the Christ.' They asked him, 'Are you Elijah? ' He said, No, I am not.' 'Are you The Prophet?' He said, No.'

        There was no need to mention details, they were expecting the Christ, Elijah, and The final Prophet, like Moses (pbuh) '. John The Baptist turns out to be Elijah in spirit , as Jesus later clarifies in Matthew 11:14: "And if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who was to come."

        And in Matthew 17:14: "But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him. ..Then they realized that he was speaking of John The Baptist."

        Obviously, Jesus was the Christ (or 'anointed one' in English). John was Elijah in the spirit. So who was The Prophet'?

        Who is the one who was to come from Mount Paran, which is according to Bible scholars, around Mecca and Medina? He was to come with ten thousand saints and bring a fiery law. He was to be like unto Moses and come from the brethren of the Israelites. This Prophet was to speak what words God put in his mouth and speak 'in the name of God'. The Prophet was to conquer his enemies and establish the Law of God and guide the faithful into all truth. Who is this Prophet that would only come after the going away of Jesus and would glorify him?

        After examining the clear evidences, it is clear that Muhammad (pbuh) was that Prophet. It is important to point out that the Jews who lived in Arabia at the time of Muhammad (pbuh) were expecting The Prophet' in the Paran (Arabia) area. They used to mock the pagans that The Prophet would soon come and lead them to victory over the pagans, as foretold in their scriptures. It is also important to understand that there were many Christians who did not believe that Jesus was God. They understood that Jesus was an honored Prophet and Messenger of God, but only human.

        These great masses of Christians were concentrated in North Africa, and they were also expecting The Prophet, as the Bible foretold. Therefore, when the message of Islam reached the North Africans, they readily followed the message of The Prophet, Muhammad (pbuh). This contributed to the fact that North Africans are Muslims today and the majority of Christians left in the world who did not follow Muhammad (pbuh) were and are those that toke Jesus to be God.

        (Qur'an 7:158).

        "... Those who follow the Messenger, the Immaculate One, whom they find mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel which are with them."


        No doubt there are many prophecies regarding the advent of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the Bible, but in the above quoted Qur'anic verse, the Torah and the Gospels are especially mentioned; because Moses and Eesa ( false name Jesus) (peace be upon them) were prominent figures among all Israelite prophets.

        Muhammad (pbuh) confirmed all previous Prophets and said that disbelieving in them was tantamount to disbelief in Islam. It is also clear that many previous Prophets told their people about the coming of The Prophet'. This Prophet would lead the people into all truth and establish the Law and proper way of life for humanity. Not surprisingly, many of these prophesies still can be seen in scriptures of Prophets who came hundreds even thousands of years before Muhammad (pbuh)



        Please examine the evidence put before you and judge with an honest judgment Please do not let the practices of those before you or the majority of people around us today, or the propaganda against Islam lure you away from honesty. In addition this Prophet had been named even in earlier scriptures



        Also could you please give me some quotes on prophecies from Muhammed that have come to pass as well.
        I believe Sister Enchanted just posted some on http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/005279.html, if you need more will work on it , since what I have given above is already lengthy.

        Does Islam support Muhammed as a prophet or a Messiah? It seems to me there was a difference between the two.
        Ibrahim says : Muhammad (pbuh) was the seal of prophets, hence the FINAL Prophet for mankind and Christ too is a prophet in the line of prophets as mentioned in the Gospel .

        The title "Messiah" is given to Christ as it was given to others before him as mentioned in the Bible.

        messiah in English means:-

        1 cap
        a : the expected king and deliverer of the Jews
        b : JESUS 1

        2 : a professed or accepted leader of some hope or cause

        ©1997, 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. All rights reserved.


        Messiah in Hebrew means; -

        Transliterated: mashiyach
        Phonetic: maw-shee'-akh

        Strong's Number: 4899 xyvm - mashiyach maw-shee'-akh; from 04886; anointed;[b] usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); specifically, the Messiah:-anointed, Messiah. Greek 3323. ...

        Ibrahim say: Since Christ was the final warning for the Jews and was sent to the Jews only and the Jews tried to kill him, the title "messiah" will not apply to the Final prophet as he was sent to their brethren and all of mankind and not to the Jews who declared themselves the chosen people ( meaning they became racists) thus angering God.

        Hope that helps

        Regard
        Ibrahim


        Your life is not yours ; it is only given to you to wake up . Don't postpone your wakening .

        Comment


          #5
          Ibrahim said: I would recommend you understand the scriptures and not views of the practitioners. Which at times can be misleading.
          Which includes Ibrahim whenever he explains the Christian faith as he tends to misquote/misrepresent and in general is extremely negative towards the Christian faith. Some of his misguided info will be discussed:

          Ibrahim said: the New Testament, which BTW is a translation of the Greek manuscript that must have originated from an Aramaic/Hebrew manuscript
          The oldest manuscripts indicate that ALL books in the New Testament were originally written in Greek. Slight proof exist that the Gospel of Matthew might have been originally in Hebrew and that the Gospel of Mark might have been originally in Latin.

          Ibrahim said: Which has been grossly manhandled and mistranslated. Thus what the originals conveys and what the translations conveys cannot be verified because the originals had been lost.
          The only way it can be proved that the Scriptures were "manhandled and mistranslated" would be if it could be compared with the first original written parts which in Ibrahim's own words "had been lost". It is therefor just a conjecture with no proof from Ibrahim that the Scriptures were "manhandled and mistranslated", as he actually proof himself that the New Testament can't be verified.

          What we DO have is about 5300 partial/complete of complete Greek manuscripts. Early on, the New Testament books were translated into other languages. This means that in addition to Greek, we have something like 8,000 manuscripts in Latin, and an additional 1,000 or so manuscripts in other languages such as Syriac, Armenian, Ethiopic, Coptic, Gothic, Sahidic and Georgian. As these translations began to be made before the close of the second century, they provide an excellent way for assessing the text of the New Testament writings from a very early date. All this material gives scholars an excellent resource for comparing copies and determining where discrepancies or scribal comments may have crept into the text. The conclusion: We can say that the New Testament text is far better attested to than any other ancient writings.

          BTW: The ORIGINAL original Qu'ran is also lost.....and only copies of it exist!

          Ibrahim said: Having said that, The Old testament in essence will say, the only way to the Father at the time of Moses (pbuh), would be through Moses (pbuh)
          Nowhere in Bible/Old Testament is it stated as such, therefor, false statement.

          Ibrahim said: You see Christ (pbuh) himself preached this and you can use the Gospel to verify it for yourself.
          Ibrahim said: Thus only as long as Christ was present on this planet he was the light of the world and the only way, hence when the Jews tried to put out this light, God ensured another light was sent to another tribe, such that the light will ever remain on this planet and that light is the Qur'an which was established by the final Prophet as foretold by Christ before he departed from this planet.
          A misrepresenting of the facts by stating that Christ Jesus would be the way to Salvation while Jesus was on earth . Jesus was and still is the way to Salvation as stated in their writings by ALL the apostlesdisciples that were taught by Jesus. Let's read what was said AFTER Jesus left the disciples:

          Salvation is found in no-one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved. Acts.4v12 Said by the disciple Peter [i]who was taught by Jesus himself[/b].

          Absolute nonsense to state that Jesus Christ foretold another Prophet to come whom would be equal to himself. Fabrication of Ibrahim's imagination (some people might even call it an outright lie!).

          Whenever Ibrahim writes about Islam, you can read and take note as he writes with authority, whenever he writes about Christianity, be aware....

          Comment


            #6
            Thank you both for your queries. Ibriham, I have to agree with the old man, in saying that there is no scripture stating that the bible predicted a so called LAST one as muhammed. The thin that I question is this. In the bible, it speaks of Jesus Christ performing miricles, healings, and that he was not a prophet but God himself in the flesh. Also that he died and was risen again in three days, tells me that he was a savior to all mankind. Now I believe both books are historical evidence for both people. Therefore believing that both lived but only one died for the people, and this is where things get a little hairy. I have no doubt that muhammed was a prophet, but I also think that Jesus was a savior. I think that man has misconstrued both books. By taking into account what he chooses to believe. I guess the part I really have a difficult time with is the fact that Jesus was predicited throughout the OT, as were many other prophecies that have came to pass 100% without fail, and the one prophecy that I can say sticks out in my mind and forever has is the one about Israel being a nation. Unless it were not true, this could not have happened, therefore, I must keep an open mind about this bible. Keeping in mind, I have not read the Quran, and also I have not been around too many muslims either, but I wanted to get the opinions from muslims in another part of the world because where I live, it is mostly made up of christians. Ibriham what are your thoughts on the book of revelations, and who do you think this false prophet is? and for the Old man, I would like your opinions on this as well, ok?

            Comment


              #7
              I wish to express my deepest pardon for the long post but it was neccitated by an even as long post.

              I wish to explain certain verses that my dear friend Ibrahim has hopelessly misused.

              Isaiah 46: 9. Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. 10. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. 11. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do. 12. Listen to me, you stubborn-hearted, you who are far from righteousness.
              The man from the east is Cyrus, the war-like king of Persia, that God would use to overthrow Babylon who oppressed Israel. By reading from chapter 44 to 47 one can clearly see the issue in context. Chapter 44v28 identifies the person who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please; he will say of Jerusalem, “Let it be rebuilt,” and ogf the temple, “Let its foundations be laid.’” In chapter 45v13 we read I will raise up him (Cyrus) in my righteousness: I will make all his ways straight (meaning his plans will bear fruit). He will rebuild my city and set my exiles free, but not for a price or reward, says the Lord Almighty. This prophesy did come to pass as written in Ezra chapter 1v1 In the first year of Cyrus, king of Persia, in order to fulfil the word of the Lord spoken by Jeremiah . Jer.25v8-14.

              BTW: Isaiah was writing about Israel in exile in Babylon (present day Iraq) when he made the prophecy which obviously made Persia (present day Iran) the country to the east!

              Kindly turn to Deuteronomy, chapter 33, verse 2, Moses prophesied some events:
              "And he said. The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; He shined forth from Mount Paran, and he came with ten thousand saints. From his right hand went a fiery Law for them."
              This verse was written by Moses to illustrate the greatness of God Almighty and is not a propphesy as Moses wrote in the past tense: “came from Sinai”, “rose up from Seir”, and “bshined forth from Mount paran”.

              BTW: No Muslim will accept that the Prophet Muhammed is God Almighty, and clearly Moses wrote The Lord…shined forth from Mount Paran. Obviously Ibrahim can let his imagination go…..

              Habakkuk 3:3-7: "God came from Teman, and the Holy One from Mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens and the Earth was full of his praise. And his brightness was as bright as the light. He had horns coming out of his hands; and there was the hiding of his power. Before him went pestilence and burning coals went forth at his feet. He stood and measured the Earth. He beheld and drove asunder the nations; the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: His ways were everlasting."
              Again we see that the prophet wrote in the past tense. The prophet refers to God that lead his people, the Israelites, out of Egypt through Teman and Paran. Teman and Paran took in the whole of the south of Judah, including Sinai. The prophet Habakuk is saying a prayer to God reflecting on the deliverance done to Israel and God’s future deliverance of Israel and the judgement of their enemies.

              BTW: Only God Almighty can be called “The Holy One”.

              Isaiah 9: 6 For unto us a child is born , unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
              This verse clearly refer to Jesus Christ. What we do have here is a child being born, being called Almighty God, Councellor, and everlasting Father stating again the Tri-une God (Father , Son, and Holy Ghost). In the next verse, that Ibrahim preferably do not quote, we find that this person will reign on the David’s throne meaning he will be of the lineage of David.

              We read in Luke.2v11 Today in the town of David a Saviour has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord. Just two chapters earlier, Isaiah wrote: Therefor the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

              BTW: Certainly the Prophet Muhammed can not be called “mighty God”! Due to wars done by the Prophet Muhammed, he also can’t be called “Prince of Peace”.

              Isaiah 28v 9. Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
              Isaiah in this chapter states how the Northern Kingdom of Israel was throwing away the blessings of the God as a drunkard throws away his money in the pursuit of wine. He writes: v1 Woe to that wealth, the pride of Ephraim’s drunkards. Isaiah refers to the people and leaders (priests and prophets) as being drunk at a banquet where the tables were covered in vomit (7-8). In verse 9-10 the prophet askes who do they want to teach with their befuddled minds. Isaiah then go on in verse 11 to 13 to state that if they do not wish to be lectured by him, they will be lectured by a people who had a difficult and foreign language. We read in verse 11 Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to his people.

              BTW: The Arabic language wasn’t strange to the people of Israel!

              Matthew 21:43-46: "Therefore I say unto you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth fruits thereof. And whosoever falls on this stone shall be broken, but on whomsoever it falls, it will grind him to powder."
              The Kingdom of God would be taken from the scribes and Pharisees represented in the parable as the wicket farmers, and given to a nation, i.e. any people who willl bring forth the fruits of salvation, opening the gospel to the Gentiles.

              Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I will raise them up a prophet among their brethren, like unto thee , and I will put my words in his mouth and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall not hearken unto the words that he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."
              The disciple Peter (who was taught personnaly by Jesus Christ), stated in Acts.3v13-26 that this Prophet that was referred to was Jesus Christ. He said: ”For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up a prophet like me from among your own people (please note – not Ismaelites but Israelites); you must listen to everything he tells you. Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.’ “Indeed, all the prophets from Samuel on, as many as has spoken, have foretold these days. And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers.”

              Please note that Peter said “these days” (present tense) and “you are” (present tense).

              Acts 7:37. This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me ; him shall ye hear. 38. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
              Let’s look at what Stephen continue to say before jumping to an Ibrahimic conclusion:

              Acts.7v51-53 ”You stiff-necked people, wwith uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him

              Stephen clearly identified Jesus Christ as the one he earlier spoke about.

              John 14:15-16, Jesus says: "If you love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray to the Father and He shall give you another Comforter." John 16:7 "Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. However, if I depart, I will send him to you." John 16:12-14, Jesus says:
              "I have yet many things to tell you, but you cannot bear them now. Howbeit, when the Spirit of Truth is come, he will guide you into all truth; for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear shall he speak. And he will show you things to come; and he shall glorify me."
              Just to show how selective Ibrahim quotes, let’s also read John 14v16 and 17: I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counsellor to be with you for ever – the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you -- clearly NOT the Prophet Muhammed.

              Nowhere does the Prophet Muhammed fulfill any of the characteristics of the Holy Spirit. Let me illustrate some points:

              1. The Spirit was instrumentall in raising Jesus from the death Rom.8v11
              2. The Spirit searches all things – even the deep things of God 1Cor.2v10
              3. The Spirit is given to those that ask God Luk.11v13

              There is only one “The Messiah” refered to and expected by Jews. That Messiah is Jesus Christ according to Christianity. The Jews still await the Messiah.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by wonderingandwaiting:Ibriham what are your thoughts on the book of revelations, and who do you think this false prophet is? and for the Old man, I would like your opinions on this as well, ok?
                WaW, I'm sure that one of our Muslim friends here will be able to give you a site online where a reputable translation of the Qu'ran can be found. I downloaded one from a site Iron-Lady gave me. The site was www.Quraan.com

                The bottom line is that if you are looking to make contact with God Almighty, it is a sign that the Holy Spirit already is working in your heart. Listen and follow the urging you get to do.

                About Revelation: The false prophet is most definitely NOT the Prophet Muhammed. This false prophet will only be made known AFTER the Anti-Christ already is known. Where the Anti-Christ will be the "governor" and will set himself up to be worshipped, the false prophet will do the priestly functions.

                Some people do not believe that the two is actual persons. Unfortunately for those, the characteristics atributed to these two show that they will most definately be actual flesh and blood individuals.

                Hope the explanation do help.

                Comment


                  #9
                  well i dunno wat's really going on...but i got the idea that ppl here were questioning Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h)'s credibility as a prophet. and asking if he had any prophecies.

                  well here are two links.

                  Quranic prophecies: http://www.thetruereligion.org/quranprophecy.htm

                  Prophet Muhammad prophecies:
                  http://www.thetruereligion.org/muhammadprophecy.htm

                  i hope it helps...actually i don't like to copy and paste very long articles.


                  Comment


                    #10
                    Old Man my Friend, you share Thoughts of a very WISE Heart, and The Creator is Smiling Upon You without Doubt.

                    I have to say, and this is simply what the LORD has placed into my Heart Very CLEAR.

                    I can NOT agree with what you share below here:

                    "About Revelation:The false prophet is most definitely NOT the Prophet Muhammed. This false prophet will only be made known AFTER the Anti-Christ already is known. Where the Anti-Christ will be the "governor" and will set himself up to be worshipped, the false prophet will do the priestly functions."

                    You are thinking of this in Man's timing, and NOT in The Timing of The LORD.

                    The Last days Began when Jesus Arose, and although 2000 years is indeed Many Lifetime over in Man's Timing, it is simply a Deep Breath of GOD.

                    The Prophet Muhammed, indeed came shortly after Jesus, with a message completely oposed to the Message JESUS Shared with the World.

                    This Prophet was a man, and now lies Dead in the Sand, but his work, The Qu'ran is still here, growing everyday in the numbers who choose to Follow him, rather than JESUS, as the WAY to The CREATOR.

                    This Writing, does NOT Deny The BIBLE, but states it is Corrupt, and so can NOT be Trusted for The Mesage it shares, but ONLY The Quran can be Trusted as The Complete Word of GOD, with it's simple Message...

                    Yes it is TRUE, JESUS (WAS) The Way, but now that is no longer True, for the Only way to The Creator, is in These instructions Presented as Truth.

                    One is a collection of Books, by many different Writers Lead by The LORD.

                    The Other is a single book, written by a single man, Claiming to Be The Final Authority of The WORD of GOD.

                    It has been stated, it stands on it's onw, for it is Pure, and the Bible is corrupt.

                    I say it stand on it's Own, for it is NOT The WORD of GOD, but the writings of a FALSE PROPHET, who's Followers have become so Great in Number, that it is CLEARLY of The Vast influence we have been warn of that would come in the Last days.

                    We have BEEN in the Mist of The Last Days, for the Past 2000 years.

                    The Current Times in which we Live, are simply The Last Hours my Friend, before The LORD's Return, Before The Great Tribulation which shall come upon this earth, when all those Left, shall be force to accept the Mark of The Beast, or accept Death upon this Earth.

                    Peace Be with You Old Man,
                    For I KNOW The LORD is in Your Heart.

                    simplepen

                    Comment


                      #11
                      So simplepen, are you saying that the false prophet is the prophet muhammed? And that the Quran is the works of the devil?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by wonderingandwaiting:
                        So simplepen, are you saying that the false prophet is the prophet muhammed? And that the Quran is the works of the devil?
                        YES, this is EXACTLY what I am Saying.

                        There are MANY False prophets, and Anti-Christ in the World today, as there has been since The Last Days began and even before.

                        Jesus Is The ONE spoken of who was to come.

                        Jesus came, and Shall come again.

                        Mohammad came after Jesus, and teaches AGAINST Everything Jesus Taught, while at the very same time, stating what is TRUTH.

                        Jesus The Only WAY, while he walked on the earth.

                        He was Born of a Virgin, sent to earth by GOD.

                        Judgement DAY shall COME FOR ALL MANKIND Upon this earth.

                        This is The POINT.

                        On That Day yet to COME, who shall the Father Be Pleased with.

                        Those who Accepted The One the Jewish rejected, as The Savior of ALL... Jesus Christ

                        or Those who came after to Jesus Walked here upon this earth, and REJECT HIM as Savior, and instead...

                        follow a man of earth who has lead many to believe The WORD of GOD is Corrupt, so do NOT trust it with The Life of Your SPIRIT, ONLY TRUST what I say is The WILL of GOD.

                        That GOD has NO SON, and Salvation Needs NOT a PRICE to be Paid, even though The Wages of SIN is DEATH.

                        Therefore Follow The Qu'ran, and You shall Please The Creator, and He shall Ignore His very OWN LAW, which states, The Wages of SIN is DEATH, and shall Give those followers of The Quran TRUE LIFE.

                        You need only Look to The very MOTIVE of each BOOK, and he PROOF is CLEAR to SEE.

                        One Speaks of TRUE PEACE, and The other simply calls out the Name of Peace, but shall Only LEAD to DEATH.

                        Just as The BIBLE shares so CLEARLY, by Those who follow the Quran, have allowed themselves to be convinced by The Enemy of GOD, That GOD WOULD NOT, and COULD NOT Keep His HOLY WORD as It was Written over many, many, many Lifetimes, from Being Kept TRUE.

                        The CREATOR of ALL The WORLD, who is in Our Daily Lives, every moment of Every day, allowed HIS HOLY WORD to be corrupted.

                        It makes me so Sad, so Many have come to Accept these CLEAR and OBIVIOUS LIES of The Quran, as The TRUTH of GOD.

                        This is why The BIBLE is NOT allowed freely in Much of the WORLD where The Quran is held as Truth.

                        It seems to me, anyone, who simply Takes the TIME to READ BOTH for Themselves, and TRUST The CREATOR, HE KEEPS HIS WORD HOLY FOREVER, and I am speaking of EVERYWORD by GOD, then they would come to SEE The TRUTH as it TRULY IS, and on that DAY yet to Come for ALL Mankind, They shall indeed received their part in The Kingdom of GOD The CREATOR.

                        NOT EVERYONE shall Be in the KINGDOM, yet EVERYONE shall Stand Before GOD.

                        Peace be with You is your search for TRUTH.

                        I say to YOU, Listen NOT to a comman man of this Earth, but READ THE WORD OF GOD, The BIBLE, and then read the Quran, and then Ask GOD for YOURSELF, to make CLEAR The ONLY TRUTH.

                        He shall, of this I Have NOT a single DOUBT.

                        In His Peace,

                        Lordspen <><

                        Comment


                          #13
                          You know what? Something you said hit me. If muslims believe in the old testiment of the bible, and it predicts the messiah to come, and be born of a virgin, then not to believe that Jesus was the messiah, is like calling God a liar right? Is this what you are saying? Because if this is what you are saying then how could the muslim faith believe in anything in the bible?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by wonderingandwaiting:
                            You know what? Something you said hit me. If muslims believe in the old testiment of the bible, and it predicts the messiah to come, and be born of a virgin, then not to believe that Jesus was the messiah, is like calling God a liar right? Is this what you are saying? Because if this is what you are saying then how could the muslim faith believe in anything in the bible?
                            This is exactly what I am Speaking about. On That Day yet to COME for All Mankind, NONE shall have Excuse. Those who have been deceived, shall NOT be able to say, "But father we were never told The TRUTH" for The Father shall say CLEARLY. " YES you were told The TRUTH, and THEN Told it was Corrupted by a Man, and You Choose to BELIEVE this man of Earth, instead of TRUSTING ME, YOUR GOD, and CREATOR to KEEP MY WORD PURE."

                            This is exactly why the Quran states the Truth of The Bible, and then simply says it is corrupt, so it is NOT TRUSTWORTHY.

                            This is INDEED, The Desire of The Father's Enemy for The World to Believe, BEFORE The Day to Come for ALL Mankind... Judgement Day.

                            The More who come to Believe this man, OVER GOD, more more who shall NOT have LIFE with The CREATOR, and THAT IS The REASON he seeks to deceive the World.

                            The CREATOR seeks ONLY To bring His Children to Have LIFE Forever With HIM. That begins NOW upon this earth, by simply TRUSTING GOD, and HIS HOLY WORD, A Collection of Books and Letters Held Together within ONE BINDING... The Holy Bible.

                            The ONE and ONLY TRUE WORD OF GOD.

                            Jesus is THE WORD, became FLESH, was sacificed for The SINS of The WORLD, and Now is With the FATHER, waiting for The Time Our Father says... NOW is The TIME My SON. Go and Gather The Elect from the Earth, for They have Been Faithful in TRUSTING MY WORD, as I HAVE Been Faithful in Keeping PURE throughout TIME, as Only I am Able to do, and no Other, for I Lead my Children, Your Brothers and Sisters. They Know my Voice. Go and bring Them to me."

                            This is TRUTH, of The Only ROOT... Jesus Christ the LORD.

                            Peace be with You.

                            Lordspen <><

                            Comment


                              #15
                              what's going on here?? okay i guess ibrahim left the discussion after 3 christians came in.

                              Well well i have nothing against u people, because of course u r followers of jesus, and i have great respect for him(AS) and his virgin mother Mary( hazrat marriam as we call her)

                              Now from what i gather from this conversation is that u r saying that heaven is for those who follow the path of jesus. Amy i be allowed to quote Quran here? allowed okay.
                              2:136 Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."
                              that means i am following Jesus doesn't it? And why do u say that the message of the two deities differ?
                              Didn't they both preach unity of Allah...and exhorted their followers to do good for mankind at large?

                              Some ppl say that Muhammad compiled the Holy Quran by taking references from Bible and torah. this is the biggest joke ppl Muhammad (p.b.u.h0 was an unlettered man how in the Name of God could he compile a book which deals with every aspect of life...along with that tells things abt which man has just got to know in 20th century? i am going to post athread abt miracles in Quran soon do read it. Quran is not a book which can be written by an illliterate.

                              I would suggest that u read its whole translation with the sole purpose of finding the truth. Although i am a muslim i never read Quran's translation till now...but now when i have started it seriously every day Allah shows me His miracles.

                              Comment

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