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    Ibrahim the S-S post was getting too long......

    Ibrahim AOA,

    the other post was getting too lengthy, so I choose to open a new thread.
    I do'nt have as much knowledge of Quran and Islamic history as you but I would answer you as an ordinary man(lets say muslim) thinks. As you know not all ppl can gain all the knowledge but they try so.

    >>Dear mm10, If I have a preset mind, why would I be talking to you or any other shia? So think, it is only on the hope that at least some of you may see the light and save yourselves from being blinded by blind hate and judging people whom you hardly know.<<

    I have not seen any shia in my community hating any sunni or any other sect at least but I am not responsible for all the shia's as well sunnis who hate each other as preached by thier seniors whether by family or moulvi's. Infact all of my good friends are Ahl-sunnat wal jamat.

    >>Islam enjoins accepting the truth and forbidding the falsehood. IF you agree, than I am duty bound to expose the falsehood that shi'ites practice and presch against Islam, not all shi'ites because amongst them are so many sects and some of them are the vilest and others are very close to Islam.<<

    So you do agree some R close to Islam, I do'nt want to start a discussion that who's close to Islam and whose not, that will be decided on your acts towards humanity not by which fiqah you belong to.

    >>Again let me remind you I am not the judge here, I merely expose as what is their dogma, which they tend to hide (taqiyah /deception) .<<

    Well if you think thats your job and you will be rewarded for that then you should keep on doing it in the hope that you will be finally elevated than ordinary ones at J-day.
    But whats wrong with the "Taqiyah", I do'nt know where R you stationed but lemme tell you that after sept 11 in USA most of the sunni, I mean sunni ppl changed thier names and thier women started uncovering thier heads B/O life and property damage fear, My family was the only one which did not scumb to such maneouvers and actually went out on streets as usual for buisness even on sept 11 and afterwards.So R your sunni brethren out of Islamic circle now.or am I??

    >>so do try to find out where you stand, if you have a belief that says only 3 people were Muslims and the rest reneged Islam after the demise of the Prophet (pbuh) which is a shia founding belief, then surely none can accept this, as part of Islam and have to condemn those who teach such things.<<

    I am not greta in knowledge as I said before. so Explain what you mean by three muslims.
    Though I know that shia belief is that Caliphate was hazrat Ali's(AS) Just right after Holy prophet(pbuh) demise which was usurped unjustically through backdoors, Does it proof that havin such belief makes you away from Islam, if so, then let it be the way and its not gonna change for ever.

    or at least the majority and they should be declared non-muslims like Qadiani's.

    >>Ibrahim says; declaring people as Muslims or Non Muslims is not my work or objective. But identifying the Shiite beliefs and how it differs from Islam is what I am talking about in this forum. <<

    Now you R contradicting yourself in above two pharases, please read it again.

    >>Like I said a shis will deny he is not a shsi and a shia will claim I am from this or that shia sect and the other shia sect is a heretic sect . so identify which shia sect you belong to and than find out why there are so many shia sects and what are the differences between them, should give you a clear picture as to where you stand .<<

    I never denied ever on this forum that I am a shia but Sunni ppl do as they never point out what maslak they belong. Though I do'nt believe in sects anymore as its a loser men's job to identify themseleves along certain lines.Accepting difference of opinion is not an easy tablet to swallow, the important thing is what you R contributing to Islam.

    >>So in this process, one has to understand that the religion given by Allah (swt) is Islam not shi'ism or ahmedism or any other ism, and the practice/belief/faith of the shia is based shi'ism not Islam, that should give you a CLEAR picture of what I am saying. They may call themselves what ever they want, but they have deviated from the Islam Allah (swt) conveyed in the Qur'an and have tried to undermine the Qur'an and the people whom Allah (swt) had blessed.<<

    The same rules apply to you as wellFlip the coin and you will understand.

    At least it appears so from your postings.

    Ibrahim says: it may appear like that when you have focused on or based your notions within your boundary markers that your parents and community had established for you

    I am confident that if you were born in a shia, Ahmadi or other family you should have been also very devout to your maslak, now do'nt say that you R blessed to be born as such.I act on principle that take good things from every one (humans and animals) and ignore bad things even from your own ppl and community.

    Correct me if I am wrong because you and FF give twisting answers to direct questions.

    Ibrahim says: can you quote the twisting answers I or Brother Fact Finder had given, because if that is what you understand, by what may have been conveyed to you, than what use is there in answering you?

    I still will have my reservations about that.

    Was salaam


    We learn from our ignorance.!

    Originally posted by mm10:
    We learn from our ignorance.!
    i hope u do, cuz u surely have a lot of it....
    may Allah guide u to the right path....

    "Our Lord! forgive us our sins and anything we may have done that transgressed our duty; establish our feet firmly and help us against those that resist faith." Quran(3:147)
    Both Halal & Haram r evident but between them r doubtful things, most ppl have no knowledge about them. So whoever saves himself from suspicious things saves his religion & honor, & whoever indulges in suspicious things indulges in Haram.


      Ibrahim says: Salaams to all

      Dear mm10, it look as though you have limited knowledge about shi’ism and what it actually teaches and you feel annoyed based on what little you know., which is liitle compared to what others may know.

      So let me help you by giving you the facts on what shi’ism teaches, as per its own sources, which Muslims or Islam cannot accept, as such teachings are FALSE.

      An Exposition of the Fallacy of Shi'ite Beliefs from Their Own Sources
      by Allamah Khalid Mahmood

      Q - Who is the Grand Mother of Imam Jafar Sadiq?

      A - She is the Grand Daughter of Hazrat Abubakr Siddique. Her name is Asma and name of her daughter is Umme Farwah.

      Q - Who is the Grand Father of Imam Jafar Sadiq?

      A - He is the Grand son of Hazrat Ali and his name is Imam Zainul Abedeen.

      The Beliefs of the Shi'ites about the Present Quran

      1) Jabir reported that he heard Imam Baqir saying: 'No one can claim that he has compiled the Quran as Allah revealed except a liar. The only person to compile it and memorise it according to its revelation was Ali ibn Abi Talib and the Imams who succeeded him. (Usul Kafi: 1:228 )

      2) A man said that someone was reciting the Quran in the company of Imam Ja'far. The narrator said that he heard certain verses in the recitation which were not according to the recitation of the people. Imam Ja'far told the person reciting: 'Do not recite like this. Recite as the people recite until the (promised) Mahdi arrives. When the Mahdi arrives, he will recite the Quran according to its original revelation and the Qu,ran compiled by Ali will be brought forward. (Ibid: 2.622)

      3) Allah says in Surah Ale Imraan (32):

      "Certainly Allah has chosen Adam, Noah, the family of Abraham and the family of Imraan above the (families of the) worlds."
      Allamah Ali ibn Ibrahim AI-Qummi - one of the early Shi'ite commentators of the Quran said concerning this verse:

      'The Imam said: 'The words: "The family of Muhammed" were also revealed along with "the family of Ale Imraan." They (referring to the Companions of the Prophet S.A.W.) removed the words "The family of Muhammad" from the original text (Al-Qummi's commentary:308). The allegation of removing the words preempts any possibility of abrogation. It is clear that the commentary is accusing the Companions of the Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) of distorting the Quran.

      4) Allah says in Surah Taha (115):

      "And We had given Adam an order before, but he forgot and We did not find any resolve in him (to disobey the order)."

      Imam Ja'far is reported to have said that Allah had revealed this verse with the following words:

      "We had ordered Adam before with some words about Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussain and the Imams from their offspring but he (Adam) forgot." Ja'far said: 'By Allah, these were the words which were revealed to Muhammad.' (Usul Kafi: 1:416 and the footnotes of Maqbool's translation: 637)

      5) Allah says in Surah Yusuf (49):

      "Then a year will come in which people will be given abundant help and they will press grapes."

      In AI-Qummi's commentary it is reported from Imam Ja'far that someone recited this verse in the presence of Ali. Ali said: 'What will they press'? Wine?' The person asked how he should read the verse. Ali replied that the verse was revealed thus: "Then a year will come in which people will he given abundant help and in which they will be given abundant rain. (Al-Qummi's commentary: 192)

      The word Ya'siroon in the present Quran is in the active voice. According to this commentary it should have been read in the passive voice as Yu'saroon to alter the meaning. In the footnotes to the translation of Maqbool, it is written that this word (Ya'siroon) was changed from the passive voice to the active to suit the fancies of wine-loving khulafa (rulers). (Maqbool's translation: 479)

      6) Allah says in Surah Muhammad (9):
      "That is because they resented what Allah revealed, so Allah in turn cancelled their deeds."

      AI-Qummi has stated that Imam Muhammad Baqir said that Jibreel had transmitted this verse as: 'That is because they resented what Allah revealed about Ali.' But then the apostates removed Ali's name (from the Quran). (Ibid: 1011)

      7) Allah says in Surah Waqi'ah (29):

      "And the Companions of the Right Hand. What about the Companions of the Right Hand. They shall be among thornless lote-trees and under clusters of bananas."

      One person recited this verse in the presence of Ali. Ali said that the word Talh is not.appropriate and should read Tal'a as in Surah Shu'araa (.........). Some enquired as why the word should not be changed. Ali replied that it was not the right time to do so because correcting the Quran would only confuse common people. He went on to say that among the Imams, only Imam Mahdi will have the right to reintroduce the Quran as it was during the time of the prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam). (Ibid: 1067)

      8) Abu Mansur Ahmed Tibrisi, a prominent Shi'ite scholar of the 8th century (H), has written:

      'Enumerating the distortions and omissions of this sort (from the present Quran) would become laborious and it will disclose what Taqiyyah (Shi'ite practice to conceal the 'truth' for religious purposes) requires me not to disclose: the good qualities of Allah's friends and the vices of His enemies. (AI-Ihtijaj by Tibrisi: 1:254)

      9) Mullah Muhsin Kashani, an 11th century Shi'ite scholar comments on the above quoted statement:

      'It is clear from all of these traditions and quotations from the Family of the Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) that the present Quran is not the complete Quran which was revealed to the Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam). In fact, there are verses that contradict that which was revealed; verses that have been distorted and places where omissions have been made such as the names of Ali, the Family of Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) and, on several occasions, there were the names of the hypocrites. Moreover, the present order of the Quran is not according to the preferred order of Allah and His Messenger. Ali ibn Ibrahim (a renowned commentator) also holds this opinion.' (Tafseer of Saafi: l:32)

      The Beliefs of the Shi'ites Regarding Prophethood

      1) Allah says in Surah Baqarah (26):
      "Certainly Allah does not disdain from giving a parable of a gnat or something larger."

      Allamah Ali ibn Ibrahim explains that by the word "gnat" Allah refers to Ameerul Mumineen (Ali) and by the words "or something larger" He means the Prophet Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam). (AI-Qummi: 19)

      2) Sheikh Tusi and Nu'mani both narrate from the 8th Imam, Rida, that the sign of Imam Mahdi's appearance will be that he will appear naked in daylight. An announcer will announce that here is the Ameerul Mumineen himself who has reappeared. Mullah Muhammad Baqir Majlisi says that the first disciple to take pledge at the hands of the nude Mahdi will be Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) himself. (Haqqul Yaqeen: 2:337)

      3) The leader of the Iranian revolution, Imam Khomeini writes

      'Every prophet came to establish justice on Earth. His aim was also to establish justice but he was not successful. The same is the position of the Seal of the Prophets who came to reform human society and establish justice but failed during his lifetime.' (Ittihad wa-yak-jihati:15)

      4) Mullah Fathullah Kashani, a reliable Shi'ite scholar writes about Mut'ah

      The Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) said:
      'Whoever performs mut'ah once will receive the status of Hussain. Who ever performs mut'ah twice will receive the status of Hasan. Whoever performs mut'ah thrice will receive the status of Ali and who ever performs mut'ah four times will receive my status. (Tafseer Manhajul Sadiqeen: 1:356)

      [Mu'tah is to marry someone for a short period of time (temporary marriage). In this marriage, the woman does not hold the status of a wife. Mut'ah is permissible and virtuous in Shi'ite law but forbidden and sinful in Islam.]

      5) Imam Khomeini writes in his book 'A1Hukumatul Islamiyah' (52):
      'It is a necessary principle of our faith that our Imams have ranks that exceed those of close angels and the appointed messengers.'

      Shi'ite Beliefs with Regards to Ayesha - the Wife of the Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam)

      1) Mullah Baqir Majlisi writes:

      'When Imam Mahdi arrives, Ayesha will be resurrected so that she may be given a prescribed punishment and that Fatima be vindicated.' (Haqqul Yaqeen: 347)

      2) The same author writes about Ayesha that "She was a traitor." (Tadhkiratul Aimmah: 66)

      3) Again, Mullah Baqir Majilisi comments about Ayesha (R.A.) and Hafsa (R.A.) that: "They were both hypocrites." (Hayatul Quloob: 2:745)

      4) Imam Khomeini writes about the prestige and worth of the oft-quoted Mullah Baqir:
      'Keep on reading the Persian books written by Majlisi so that you do not fall into any other such stupidity.' (Kashful Asrar: 121)

      5) Maqbool Dehlavi, a Shi'ite translator of the Quran, quotes Imam Baqir as saying 'Two women poisoned the Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) before his death. These are the same two women (Ayesha and Hafsa). May Allah curse them and their fathers (Abu Bakr and Omar respectively).

      (His translation of Surah Ale Imraan: 134)

      What the Shi'ites believe about the Companions of the Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam)

      1) Mullah Muhammed bin Yaqoob Kulaini, the most prominent Shi'ite scholar of Hadith, quotes Imam Baqir as saying:

      'People became apostates after the death of the Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam), except for three people: Miqdad ibn Aswad, Abu Dharr Ghifari and Salmaan Farsi.'

      He continues:

      'Abu Bakr and Omar did not repent before they parted the world. In fact, they did not even mention what they had done to Ali. So may Allah, His angels and all of mankind curse them. (Furu'ul Kafi: Kitabul Rauda: 115)

      2) Mullah Baqir writes:

      'Regarding the doctrine of' 'Tabarri' we believe that we should seek disassociation from four idols namely, Abu Bakr, Omar, Uthman and Mu'awiyah; from four women namely, Ayesha, Hafsa, Hind and Ummul Hakam, along with all their associates and followers. 'These are the worst creation of Allah. It is not possible to believe in Allah, His Messenger and the Imams without disassociating oneself from their enemies. (Haqqul Yaqeen: 2:519)

      [The doctrine of 'Tabarri' means to have no association with the enemies of Allah.]

      3) Mullah Baqir writes

      'One should say after each prayer: O Allah! Curse Abu Bakr, Omar, Uthman, Mu'awiyah, Ayesha, Hafsa, Hind and Ummul Hakam. (Aynul Hayat: 599)

      4) The Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam), came to a person from the Ansaar and asked him if he had any food. The Ansaari said he had and slaughtered a goat. The man then grilled some meat and presented it to the Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) who wished that Ali, Fathima, Hasan and Hussain were present with him. Then Abu Bakr and Omar arrived. Ali also arrived shortly after. Allah then revealed the verse:

      'We have never sent any messenger prophet or Muhaddath before except that when ever they desired something, the devil interfered in their desire.' (The Prophet then said) This is just as the devil has sent his two agents here right now (Abu Bakr and Omar). (The footnotes of Maqbool's translation: Surah Hajj: 674)
      [Muhaddath is a non-prophet but he is inspired by Allah]

      5) Mullah Baqir Majlisi writes
      'Pharaoh and Hamaan refer here to Abu Bakr and Omar. (Haqqul Yaqeen: 342)

      6) The same author also says:
      'The references in big books about the illegitimate birth of Omar cannot be discussed in this book. (Ibid: 259)

      7) Allah says in Surah Nahl (90):
      "And He prevents you from immorality, unlawfulness and rebellion.'
      Ali ibn Ibrahim AI-Qummi comments on this verse:

      'These three vices refer to so and so, so and so and so and so.' (Al Qummi's commentary: 218)

      Any ambiguity is cleared by the following comment: 'Immorality refers to the first person (Abu Bakr); unlawfulness refers to the second (Omar) and rebellion refers to the third (Uthman). (Footnotes to Maqbool's translation: 522)

      8) Mullah Baqir narrates a story from Imam Zainul Abideen that a man came to the Imam and asked him to inform him about Abu Bakr and Omar. The Imam informed him that they were both non-believers. (Haqqul Yaqeen: 551)

      The Shi'ites Belief Regarding the family of The Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam)

      1) Mullah Baqir Majlisi writes:

      'Fatima (R.A.) described Ali (R.A.) thus: "You are hiding like a malformed foetus in a womb; you have ran home like those who are guilty of being untrustworthy and after having destroyed the strongest men on earth you have been overcome by these wimps." (Ibid: 203)

      2) Mullah Baqir also writes:
      After hearing some women talking about Ali (R.A.) Fatima (R.A.) complained about her husband's features:
      b] "He is a man with a big stomach. His hands are high and his bones look suppressed. He has a receding hair line, big eyes and shows his teeth all the time. He has no wealth either.[/b] (Jilalul Uyoon: 58, in the chapter on Fatima)

      3) The very same Mullah Baqir comments about a dream that Fatima had and establishes that the devil came to her 'The dream Fatima had was from a devil whose name is Uhaad. (Ibid: 52)

      4) The renowned Shi'ite scholar Abu Mansur Ahmed Tibrisi writes:

      'Abu Bakr sent Qunfudh to Ali with a delegation who entered Ali's house without his permission. Ali went for his sword but the group had already taken it away. They captured Ali and tied a rope round his neck. When Fatima tried to intervene, Qunfudh hit her. The delegation dragged Ali to Abu Bakr where Omar, Khalid bin Walid and Abu Ubaidah ibn Jarrah (R.A.) were also present with many other people. Omar severely reprimanded Ali and told him to swear allegiance with Abu Bakr. Ali then took Abu Bakr's hand and took an oath of allegiance. (Al-Ihtijaj, by Tibrisi: 83, 84)

      5) Mullah Baqir narrates Fatima's displeasure with regards to Ali's attitude about her in the words of Ali:

      "Jibreel came to the Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) and said "Allah sends His Salaam upon you and says that Fatima is about to come and complain about Ali. Do not listen to anything about Ali from Fatima."

      When Fatima came, the Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) asked her if she came to complain about Ali. She replied that she had. The Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) said: "By the Lord of the Ka'bah! Go back to Ali and tell him that you are prepared to rub your nose in dust in order to keep him happy. You may do as you please." (Jailul 'Uyoon: 61)

      What is the Shi'ites belief about the Ahlus Sunnah Wa'l Jama'ah

      1) Muhammad ibn Yacoob Kulaini, the most prominent of all Shi'ite scholars of Hadith quotes Imam Baqir as saying:

      "Everybody, except us Shi'ites, are illegitimate." (Furoo'u Kafi in Kitabul Raudah: 135)

      2) Mullah Baqir writes:

      "When Imam Mahdi appears, he will start to execute the Sunni scholars before turning to the non-believers." Similar words of this hadith has also been quoted in the tafseer Majma'ul Bayan with reference to the Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam). (Haqqul Yaqeen: 2:527)

      2) Mullah Baqir quotes Imam Zainul Abideen:

      A person asked the Imam about Abu Bakr and Omar.

      The Imam replied: "I have been informed that they were both non-believers and any one who befriends them (by thinking they are good) are also non-believers." (Ibid: 2:522)

      3) The same author quotes Imam Ali-ul-Naqi:

      Imam Ali-ul-Naqi was asked about identifying the Nasibi group (those who prefer Abu Bakr and Omar over Ali): whether it was sufficient to know that they (the Nasibis) preferred Abu Bakr and Omar over Ali and that they held the Imamate of Abu Bakr and Omar in good standing. The Imam replied that whoever believed this was a Nasibi. (Ibid: 521)

      4) Again, Mullah Baqir writes about these Nasibis:

      The Nasibi (one who prefers Abu Bakr and Omar over Ali) is worse than an illegitimate person. It is true that Allah has not created anything more despicable than dogs. But the Nasibi is even more degenerate in the Eyes of Allah than a dog. (Ibid: 2:516)

      The Beliefs of Allamah Khomeni, the Leader of the Iranian Revolution

      1) Nuri Tibiris, one of the most renowned Shi'ite scholars and mujtahids, wrote a book against the present Quran. The book is entitled: 'Faslul Khitab Fi Tahreefi-Kitabi Rabbil Arbaab' (The Final Verdict on the Distortion of the Book of the Lord of Lords).

      Allamah Khomeini mentions this scholar with great respect in his own book 'A1Hukumatul Islamiyah" (The Islamic State). In fact, Khomeini has actually used Nuri Tibiris's work entitled "Mustadrakul Wasail" to complete his theory of Wilayatul Faqih.
      [Wilayatul Faqih is the Islamic jurist's right to overrule a ruling that contradicts Islamic law.]

      2) Khomeini writes about Abu Bakr and Omar (R.A.):

      "Those people who, in their envy to rule, attached themselves to the Deen of the Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) and formed their own cliques could not possibly refrain from their actions on the bases of Quranic advice. They had to materialise their aims at any cost." (Kashful Asraar: 114)

      3) He also writes:

      'Those who had no affiliation with the Quran and Islam except through their desire for the world and power. They had made the Qurun a vehicle to promote their agenda. (Ibid)

      4) In his book Kashful Asraar, Allamah Khomeni has dedicated a whole chapter to Abu Bakr's opposition to the Quran and another chapter to the Omar's opposition. (Ibid: 114 & 117)

      5) He has then continued to write a chapter on how to answer the critiques of the Ahlus Sunnah W'al Jama'ah with the heading: "An eye on the answers of the foolish." (Ibid: 120)

      6) Khomeni writes about Uthman (R.A.):
      "We worship and recognise only that God Whose actions are based on concrete rationalism and Who does not rule against that rationalism. We do not worship a god who creates a building for Divine worship and justice and then strives to destroy that very building himself by giving authority to rascals like Yazid, Mu'awiyah and Uthman. (Ibid: 107)

      Ibrahim says dear mm10, kindly visit web link for original texts. Also visit for additional info on shi’ism

      Now once you have understood this, If you wish to accept them or reject them, feel free to do so.

      Hope that helps you out of your ignorance.

      Was salaam

      Ignorance is NOT an excuse



        If you say that you do not have much knowledge of what you are talking about, you should avoid the likes of Ibrahim who are masters of deceipt.

        Let the knowledgeable deal with such folks as they can make such individuals look like fools with the words that these foolish concort.

        Take my advice and let it go. This individual has free time on his hands and is well-trained in cuting & pasting posts a thousand times, if need be.

        Don't waste your time with a fool.


          Originally posted by mm10:
          lemme tell you that after sept 11 in USA most of the sunni, I mean sunni ppl changed thier names and thier women started uncovering thier heads B/O life and property damage fear, My family was the only one which did not scumb to such maneouvers and actually went out on streets as usual for buisness even on sept 11 and afterwards.So R your sunni brethren out of Islamic circle now.or am I??
          Dear Brother/Sister:

          In order to prove a point, we must not fall into the trap of stretching the truth as it does noone any good. You may want to stay away from such fallacies as you are doing harm to your own soul.


            Originally posted by armughal:
            i hope u do, cuz u surely have a lot of it....
            may Allah guide u to the right path....

            Sure I will learn,and am learning
            Take care.


              Ibrahim AOA,
              Like I said before you tend to give twisting answrs and has it done again. All I see is cut and paste from Shia books.
              You did not adress the questions i posed to you in my post. I can search and post lots of stufff from sunni sites which is ridiculous but thats not the point.


                Originally posted by mm10:
                Ibrahim AOA,
                Like I said before you tend to give twisting answrs and has it done again. All I see is cut and paste from Shia books.
                You did not adress the questions i posed to you in my post. I can search and post lots of stufff from sunni sites which is ridiculous but thats not the point.
                Ibrahim is a busy man. It's likely he does't have the time. It doesn't mean he does not have the answers to your questions.

                Even I could have answered some of the points you raised, but sorry I don't have the time.

                Btw, nice taqiyah you are doing (acting so innocent, " O we are the victims" blah blah blah - just like the Jews in Israel who kill the Muslims, and then claim they themselves are the victims !!!!)

                I wonder why the Shias resemble the Jews so much. Is it because, Abdullah bin Saba, the FOUNDER of Shiism was an Ex-JEW ???

                [This message has been edited by Khoon-e-Shaheed (edited June 03, 2002).]


                  Originally posted by mm10:
                  Like I said before you tend to give twisting answrs and has it done again.
                  Ibrahim says: Salaams to all

                  Dear Mm10, I think you need help, because I did not give answers to questions but addressed the main problem that is impeding your progress to better understanding Islam .

                  It works like this, when you do to a doctor and start complaining about all the problems you have , the doctors , due to their knowledge are capable of identifying where lies the problem and than give a prescription to solve that problem.

                  You may have many complaints but all of them may be originating from a single or a number of causes, that is beyond your knowledge but the doctor knows what he/she is doing to prescribe what he prescribes in order to make you well. And that too, is not immediate, it takes observation and progress as to how one responds to the prescription . If one prescription fails after a few days the doctor will try other methods

                  Here I gave you medicine for your ailment, and you came back and claim I gave you wrong medicine. That is silly. Now try digesting the medicine and have patience, If Allah (swt) willed you will have your sickness cured by what I gave you.

                  All I see is cut and paste from Shia books.
                  Ibrahim says: yes, that was your major problem , you either did not know shi’ism or you have not been truthful, by claiming that, the difference is about who is to be caliph………….. when you wrote………I quote……

                  mm10 wrote: Though I know that shia belief is that Caliphate was hazrat Ali's(AS) Just right after Holy prophet(pbuh) demise which was usurped unjustically through backdoors, Does it proof that havin such belief makes you away from Islam, if so, then let it be the way and its not gonna change for ever.
                  Ibrahim says: hence when I give you more details on shia teachings form their own source not something fabricated by others, you should have been grateful, but unfortunately you come back to accuse me again, about twisting, that is silly but I have to excuse you since you are still young.

                  You did not adress the questions i posed to you in my post.
                  Ibrahim says; ah, that s where you have filed to understand what you read, so read what I posted again anfd you will answers for your problem and a number of questions.

                  Let me give you an example

                  You wrote: “so Explain what you mean by three muslims.”

                  The answer is: ( already posted earlier)
                  1) Mullah Muhammed bin Yaqoob Kulaini, the most prominent Shi'ite scholar of Hadith, quotes Imam Baqir as saying:

                  'People became apostates after the death of the Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam), except for three people: Miqdad ibn Aswad, Abu Dharr Ghifari and Salmaan Farsi.'
                  Ibrahim says; So If you had been sincere and had the capability to digest what you read, you would have received the answers from your own books, such that they will be no doubts about what I have been saying.

                  Now, go back and read my post again, and find out where which question you may have posed is being answered by your own books. And don’t expect me to respond to your personal opinions or reservations.

                  BUT, THINK, your claim was you are ignorant and want to learn , aren’t you happy I enlightened you by revealing what else you were not aware of?

                  Was salaam

                  you can have a better job by doing a better job


                    Ibrahim AOA,
                    Well you still do'nt answer in a straight forward way instead try to attck others religious believes in a sarcastic cum annihilative manner thats what breeds hatred and disrespect among different sects.It may console your soul but not attract a good audience.Having same ppl support e'g like FF does not add anything more, if it does, than you R fool.

                    Give me some reason why ppl do'nt keep names like Yazid and Muaviya, after all they were muslims too.

                    There R plenty of anti shia and anti ahmadi sites, which again is a joke with Islam as I wonder how come ppl have so much time and energy to waste by showing none other than thier hatred towards others.

                    I think either you did not get my point or I am unable to catch your's.

                    Hazrat Ali(AS) once said "that there is Zakat for every thing and Mind's Zakat is to remain Silent on foolish talks".

                    Was slam


                      Originally posted by Khoon-e-Shaheed:
                      Ibrahim is a busy man. It's likely he does't have the time. It doesn't mean he does not have the answers to your questions.

                      Even I could have answered some of the points you raised, but sorry I don't have the time.

                      Btw, nice taqiyah you are doing (acting so innocent, " O we are the victims" blah blah blah - just like the Jews in Israel who kill the Muslims, and then claim they themselves are the victims !!!!)

                      I wonder why the Shias resemble the Jews so much. Is it because, Abdullah bin Saba, the FOUNDER of Shiism was an Ex-JEW ???

                      [This message has been edited by Khoon-e-Shaheed (edited June 03, 2002).]
                      Ibrahim ka chamcha. .anyways..

                      what about your respected Abu Hurraira?He was an "Ex Jew" too right

                      btw Abdullah bin sabah wasnt a founder of Shiasm. He never existed..its a known fact. Ppl like u spread this rubbish..

                      You still seem to be ignorant about taqayyah even though I tried to clear the misconception in one of the thread but you intentionally ignored it..I wonder why..

                      [This message has been edited by sherrybaba (edited June 04, 2002).]


                        Originally posted by sherrybaba:
                        btw Abdullah bin sabah wasnt a founder of Shiasm. He never existed..its a known fact. Ppl like u spread this rubbish..



                        RESPONSE TO THE EMBASSY OF IRAN


                        Embassy Of The Islamic Republic Of Iran

                        In the name of Allah, The Compassionate, The Merciful

                        In the last issue of “Al-Rasheed” an article entitled Abdullah lbn Saba: Founder of Shi'aism was published in which unfortunately some accusations were made against Shi'aism.

                        The article, the author of which is not known, tries to, through some false accusations made against SHI'IA Ulamahs, establish that the Jew Abdullah ibn Saba is the founder of Shi'aism, and that Shi'aism is based on Judaism.

                        While the truth is that the quoted phrase is tampered with in a way which reflects an understanding completely opposite to what the source reads.

                        Shi'aism, with millions of followers throughout the world, and having a historical background of over 1400 years is based on Qur'ân and Holy Ahaadeeths by our beloved Prophet (peace be upon him). For example to prove the Caliphate of Ali ibn Abi Talib, Shi’ites have had recourse to some Qur'ânic verses and Ahaadeeths of the Holy Prophet. Of course these Ahaadeeths, most of which are also accepted by Sunnis, have not been understood by the two denominations in the same way.

                        It is regrettable that in an era when the Muslims need to more than ever unite against their fierce enemies; especially so amongst the two main schools of thought namely Sunnis and Shia’s; such disturbing accusations are spread out; not giving enough time and means to Shia’s and their beliefs.

                        Below I have enlisted a number of books as sources for seekers of truth and followers of scientific and historic debates for their reference:

                        1. ABDULLAH IBN SABA AND OTHER MYTHS by Allamah Askari

                        2. THE ORIGINS AND EARLY DEVELOPMENT OF SHI'AH ISLAM by S.H.M Jafri)

                        3. SHl’A by Allamah Tabatabai

                        4. Computeric software including BIHAR AL-ANWAR RIJAL AL-KASHI.

                        A copy of these books is available in the Embassy’s library. I do not know however of the existence of other copies elsewhere in the country.

                        Those interested are hereby invited to make use of our library to find out for themselves the scientific and logical way in which the said unscientific accusations have been responded.

                        Please do not hesitate to contact me at the following number to arrange for such facilities.

                        OFFICE TEL: (012) 342 8880/1
                        FAX NO: (012) 342 4790
                        M.H. BORJIAN YAZDI
                        CULTURAL ATTACHE
                        I 6 AUG 1999


                        Mr. M.H. Borjian Yazdi
                        Cultural Attaché
                        Iranian Embassy


                        ************ RESPONSE *************



                        Receipt has been taken of your letter dated 15 August 1999, in which you voiced dissatisfaction with the article Abdullah ibn Saba: The Founder of Shi'aism.

                        Your concern as the diplomatic representatives of Iran over an article of this nature is understood. Understood too, are the sentiments you express where you say that “it is regrettable that in an era when the Muslims need to more than ever united against their fierce enemies; especially so amongst the two main schools of thought namely Sunnis and Shia’s; such disturbing accusations are spread out not giving enough time and means to Shia’s and their beliefs.”

                        Sunnism & Shi'aism

                        However, as much as one would want to gloss over the differences between the Ahl as-Sunnah and the Shi‘ah, the fact of the matter is that the differences do exist, and that by their very nature they make each group’s claim to the Truth an exclusive one.

                        It is precisely for this reason that the propagation of Shi'aism has continued unabatedly in Sunni societies, more often than not with funding from, and the sanction of, Iran. To the best of our knowledge your government has never expressed the least reservation over the huge amount of Shi'ite propagationist literature flowing to Sunni communities out of Iran, nor about the activities of missionaries actively engaged in the propagation of Shi'aism amongst Sunnis, with financial backing from Iranian foundations.

                        This has given rise to a situation where the Ahl as-Sunnah have become so alarmed by the rate of proselytising in their communities that calls of people like yourself for “Muslim unity in the face of the fierce enemies of Islam” have come to be seen as a smoke screening device intended to create the diversion under cover of which Shi'ite missionaries will penetrate into Sunni societies. If this assertion could once upon a time be dismissed as an unfounded assumption, it has now found a basis for itself in two decades of bitter experience, in South Africa and elsewhere.

                        It is not intended here to deny you the right to propagate your beliefs, since the constitution of our country upholds freedom of belief. Our intention is to bring it to your notice that when the Shi‘ah have opted to exercise their right to propagate their faith, they should not be surprised or express regret at the inevitable consequences.

                        When Iran declared Ithna ‘Ashari Shi‘ism the state religion, it set itself up as the champion of Shi‘ism. (Incidentally this is also the reason why you, as the cultural attaché of your country, took exception to the article Abdullah ibn Saba: The Founder of Shi‘ism.) Therefore it is fully comprehensible to us why Iran will not permit Sunni missionary groups to operate on Iranian soil. But we become completely mystified when we see the double standards of Iran itself sending missionaries, or acquiescing to the funding and sending of missionaries to communities such as ours who are not in a position to defend its faith through political or legal power.

                        Crux of the issue

                        This issue does not revolve simply around Ibn Saba. It goes much further than that. It has to do in the first instance with each group’s claim to being the true form of Islam, and by logical extension, with the way in which each group accounts for the existence of the other.

                        The Shi‘ah and the Ahl as-Sunnah both claim that their form of Islam is the true one. This assertion is probably beyond contention from either side. The real problem lies in the implication of these respective claims. If “A” lays claim to the truth, it is simultaneously claiming that the claim of “B” is false, and vice versa. We know that this perspective of the relationship between the Ahl as-Sunnah and the Shi‘ah is an extremely sensitive one, but it is a question that must be addressed if we are to have an appreciation of all the various dimensions to this issue.

                        Shi'aism makes no secret of the fact that it regards the faith and practice of the Ahl as-Sunnah as the corruption of Islam by the Companions of the Prophet (sallallahu ‘alayhi wa-alihi wasallam) primarily, and the Umayyad and Abbasid dynasties secondarily. References to support this contention abound in the books of the Shi‘ah, some of which are now quoted here:

                        God knows what misfortunes Islam has suffered from its inception down to the present at the hands of these evil ‘ulama! Abu Hurairah was one of the fuqaha, but God knows what judgements he falsified for Mu‘awiyah and others like him, and what damage he inflicted upon Islam. (Ayatullah Khomeini, Islam and Revolution: Writings and Declarations of Imam Khomeini, p. 114, translated and annotated by Hamid Algar)

                        We conclude here that the Shi‘ah are the true followers of the Prophetic Sunnah... Whereas the Ahl as-Sunnah have expressly contradicted the Prophetic Sunnah. (Muhammad Tijani Samawi, The Shi‘ah: The Real Followers of the Sunnah p. 314, Ansariyan Publications, Qum 1995)

                        It is self evident that the Khulafa ar-Rashidun (except Imam ‘Ali) have practised ijtihad with their opinions against the Prophetic Sunnah. (ibid. p. 315)

                        The religion was exploited for the political needs. Both the Omayyids and the Abbasids deepened and strengthened sectarian and religious prejudices among the Muslims in order to use them for their own purposes. They exaggerated and amplified the idea of seniority of persons other than Ali in the matter of the Caliphate. In these efforts of theirs, they were helped by those Ulema (scholars) who cared much for the worldly positions. The rulers spent money on such scholars who in turn reported fabricated Traditions suitable to the rulers, especially during the Omayyid period, as we have already said. People follow the religion of their kings. They also said what their rulers did. Then came those who were not aware of the real situation. saw these fabricated traditions and made-to-order injunctions and took them for true ones. They further passed them on in their books. Those who came later found these Traditions in the books attributed to great personalities which made them accept them as true. Thus these traditions got disseminated between the people. Everyone read them, talked about them in their gatherings and discussed them in their classes and schools. In this time passed on and such ideas got currency amongst the common masses so much so that those who knew the truth were swept away by the pressure of public opinion and these false ideas, which it is proper to discuss, took the form of a regular creed. (Hasan ul-Amine, Shorter Shi’ite Encyclopaedia, pp. 78-79, Ansariyan Publications, Qum, 1997)

                        (For further reference, see the books an-Nass wal-Ijtihad by ‘Abd al-Husayn Sharaf ad-Deen, and Ma‘alim al-Madrasatayn by Murtada al-‘Askari.)

                        We hope that notice will have been taken here of the fact that the quoted sources were published in Iran within the last five years. If the Shi‘ah thus have a freedom of using the printed word for disseminating their own opinion about the origin of Sunni faith and practice, we are baffled as to why umbrage should be taken when the Ahl as-Sunnah express their honest opinion about the origins of Shi‘ism. If Iranian sensors find nothing objectionable in literature such as the quoted sources, why should Sunnis be expected to practice reservation? And, if such inflammatory statements do not give you, the Shi‘ah, reason to regret that “in an era when the Muslims need to more than ever unite against their fierce enemies; especially so amongst the two main schools of thought namely Sunnis and Shia’s; such disturbing accusations are spread out”, why are we, the Ahl as-Sunnah, being told that making accusations like this spells disaster for Muslim unity? Surely the authors of the quoted sources were also not “giving enough time and means to Sunnis and their beliefs”.

                        For as long as the Shi‘ah will persist to view Muslim unity as a one-way street in which they alone have the exclusive right to fling the stones and hurl the sticks, it will remain the mirage it presently is.

                        If, on the other hand, it is argued that these are things that are historically verifiable, we would submit that if the act of verifying the truth is supposed to have a preconceived result, it is a meaningless exercise. On the other hand, if it is going to be a completely objective process, it will inevitably threaten the Muslim unity whose destruction you fear. But let us, for the sake of demonstration, engage in just one such exercise.

                        Abdullah ibn Saba

                        Let us discuss, first of all, the historical existence, and thereafter, the role of Ibn Saba, in order to ascertain whether the Sunni position that he was the founder of conventional Shi'aism is based on scientific research, or unfounded accusations.

                        The existence of Ibn Saba

                        Murtada al-‘Askari’s entire argument for denying Ibn Saba’s historicity rests upon the fact that Ibn Jarir at-Tabari’s Tarikh, as the major reference for historical material on Ibn Saba, uses Sayf ibn ‘Umar at-Tamimi as his sole source for describing the character and exploits of Ibn Saba. He states on page 20:

                        All historians agree that the story [of Ibn Saba] was told first of all by Saif.

                        He then gives a list of 22 historians, all of whom have relied, directly or indirectly, upon the information supplied by Sayf, and remarks:

                        The above list gives evidence to the fact that the story of ‘Abdullah Bin Saba’ has been started by Saif and cited primarily from Tabari. (Murtada al-‘Askari, ‘Abdullah ibn Saba and Other Myths, Part One, p. 21, second edition, published by A Group of Muslim Brothers, Tehran 1981)

                        This is exactly the Achilles’ heel of al-‘Askari’s research. He has—intentionally or unintentionally—displayed myopic scholarship by asserting that Sayf ibn ‘Umar is the only source for the existence of Ibn Saba. A mere look at the biography of Sayf in Ibn Hajar al-‘Asqalani’s Lisan al-Mizan (vol. 4 p. 22 of the edition published by Dar Ihya’ at-Turath al-‘Arabi, and edited by Muhammad ‘Abd ar-Rahman al-Mar‘ashli) would have revealed to him just how erroneous his assertion is. The sources from which Ibn Hajar has drawn, such as the 70 volume Tarikh Madinat Dimashq by Ibn ‘Asakir, and the Musnad by Abu Ya‘la al-Mawsili have been published, and by means of their chains of narration that pass through authorities other than Sayf ibn ‘Umar, eloquently testify to the intellectual deception practiced by al-‘Askari. (See Ibn ‘Asakir, Tarikh Madinat Dimashq vol. 29 pp. 3-10, where he has filled seven pages with information on Ibn Saba.)

                        Al-‘Askari did in fact make mention of the history of Ibn ‘Asakir in his survey of the historical sources that mention Ibn Saba. However, in his eagerness to create the (false) perception that all the historical threads link up to Sayf ibn ‘Umar, he committed the deception of singling out one of the twelve independent accounts as being derived by Ibn ‘Asakir through Sayf, and making as if the remaining 11 reports do not exist. (See ‘Abdullah ibn Saba and Other Myths, p. 47) The fact is that 10 of the remaining 11 reports pass through authorities other than Sayf, but that is a fact that al-‘Askari conveniently chose to overlook.

                        The term “intellectual deception” might seem a bit too harsh a description for a researcher who was probably not informed about that wealth of information. But it appears very justified when it is considered that the existence of Ibn Saba is attested to in the legacy of the Shi‘ah themselves, and by the Imams of the Shi‘ah themselves. If it could be pleaded that al-‘Askari was ignorant of the historical information documented by Ibn ‘Asakir and others, there is no way that same plea could ever be accepted in terms of the legacy of the Shi‘ah. After all, a learned researcher who spent so much time and effort fine-combing the voluminous works of history is definitely expected to encompass the contents of his own legacy first.

                        In his survey of historical works, which he purports to be exhaustive, not a single mention has been made of the literature of the Shi‘ah. Not a single classical Shi‘i source features on the chart he gives on page 50. The fact is that the existence of Ibn Saba is attested to in almost every Shi‘i biographical work. Dr. Sa‘di al-Hashimi in his book Ibn Saba: Haqiqah La Khayal (pp. 25-28, Maktabat ad-Dar, Madina 1406) has listed over 20 Shi‘i sources that testify to the existence of Ibn Saba. We might mention by way of example just one of those works. Incidentally the book happens to be one of the books contained in the list you mentioned in your letter. The only difference is that your copy is computerised, while ours is a printed book. The book we refer to is Ikhtiyar Ma‘rifat ar-Rijal, which is Abu Ja‘far at-Tusi’s recension of Abu ‘Amr al-Kashshi’s 4th century biographical dictionary of Shi‘i hadith narrators. In this book the entry for Ibn Saba spans a full two pages (323-324), and consists of five separate reports, their numbers running from 170 to 174. Below we give you a list of the Imams with whom these five reports originate:

                        170: Imam Muhammad al-Baqir

                        171: Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq

                        172: Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq

                        173: Imam Zayn al-‘Abidin

                        174: Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq

                        (See Ikhtiyar Ma‘rifat ar-Rijal, pp. 323-324, ed. as-Sayyid Mahdi ar-Rijali, published by Mu’assasat Al al-Bayt, Qum, 1404)

                        The reporters of these narrations are all of the Shi‘ah. Therefore, if we were to apply al-‘Askari’s hypothesis to these reports documented by al-Kashshi, we would have to conclude that Sayf ibn ‘Umar even succeeded in pulling wool over the eyes of these venerable Imams by making them believe that ‘Abdullah ibn Saba, who is supposed to be a figment of his own imagination, actually existed. I think you will agree that such a conclusion is highly absurd. It wouldn’t take a genius to figure that the source of that absurdity is al-‘Askari’s hypothesis, “that the story of ‘Abdullah Bin Saba’ has been started by Saif and cited primarily from Tabari”.

                        Another book you have listed iThe Origins and Early Development of Shi‘a Islam by S.H.M. Jafri. Please be informed that Jafri does not make any definitive conclusions about Ibn Saba. His words are:

                        Whether ‘Abd Allah bin Saba, to whom the history of the ghulat is traced, was a real personality or not, the name as-Saba’iyya is often used to describe the ghulat in Kufa who believed in the supernatural character of ‘Ali. (Jafri, The Origins and Early Development of Shi‘a Islam, p. 300, Ansariyan Publications, Qum)

                        We have thus far had one Shi‘i writer—al-‘Askari—who completely denies the historicity of Ibn Saba, and another—Jafri—who is undecided. We will add a citation from the work of a third contemporary Shi‘i writer who categorically affirms the existence of Ibn Saba. Shaykh Muhammad Husayn az-Zayn al-‘Amili writes in his book ash-Shi‘ah fit-Tarikh:

                        However it may be, Ibn Saba definitely existed and manifested ghuluww (extremism), even though some people doubt his existence and made him out to be an imaginary character created by personal interests. As for us, on grounds of the latest research we have no doubt concerning his existence and his extremism... Yes, Ibn Saba exhibited extremism in his religion. This innovation of his seeped into the thinking of a group that was by no means small, and that group was named after him. (Muhammad Husayn az-Zayn, ash-Shi‘ah fit-Tarikh, p. 213, Dar al-Athar, Beirut, 1979)

                        Here we have three different positions on the existence of Ibn Saba. All three belong to Shi‘i writers. Two of them are listed by you as “sources for seekers of truth and followers of scientific and historic debates”. Do we have the freedom of choosing the one which seems most likely to be the truth, or is the selection of the true opinion the prerogative of the Shi‘ah?

                        The role of Ibn Saba

                        Now, having dealt with the problem of Ibn Saba’s existence, we may move on to discuss his role in the historical development of Shi‘ism.

                        Ibn Saba is held responsible for the introduction of many phenomena which later developed into hallmark aspects of Shi'aism. The Shi‘ah (or at least those of them who accept his existence, like Shaykh Muhammad Husayn az-Zayn al-‘Amili) admit that he exhibited extremist tendencies. In the Tarikh of Ibn ‘Asakir he is on record as having

                        vilified Abu Bakr and ‘Umar (Ibn ‘Asakir vol. 29 pp. 8,9)
                        believed the Prophet (sallallahu ‘alayhi wa-alihi wasallam) to have imparted
                        to ‘Ali special knowledge which was not known to anyone but him.
                        (Ibn ‘Asakir vol. 29 p. 9)
                        believed ‘Ali to have been the Dabbat al-Ard, the creator and the giver of sustenance (Ibn ‘Asakir vol. 29 p. 9)
                        The first two of these beliefs are common features of Ithna ‘Ashari Shi'aism, while the third one with its extremist overtones is more reminiscent of the Ghulat. We have already seen what Jaa'fri has written about Ibn Saba’s role in the origin of the Ghulat. That particular aspect of Ibn Saba’s role finds further corroboration in the Shi'ite biographical literature. Al-Kashshi, for example, reports the following

                        Hisham ibn Salim reports that Abu ‘Abdillah (Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq) told his companions the story of Ibn Saba, and his claims of divinity for Amir al-Mu’minin. He said: When he made those claims Amir al-Muminin asked him to repent. He refused to repent, so Amir al-Mu’minin burnt him fire. (Ikhtiyar Ma‘`rifat ar-Rijal, vol. 1 p. 323)

                        Extremist tendencies like these were originally introduced by Ibn Saba. Before him no one, not even the little group of Sahabah like Abu Dharr and Salman al-Farisi, whom the Shi‘ah look upon as the early Shi‘ah, ever made such claims, neither did any one of them ever speak ill of Abu Bakr and ‘Umar. This too, was invented by Ibn Saba.

                        Extremism did not die with the death of Ibn Saba. It persisted, and the centre of its activities, as Jafri tells us in The Origins and Early Development of Shi‘ah Islam (p. 300), was the city of Kufa. Here we stand before an interesting observation that was brought to light by Jafri. He writes:

                        There is another important point that must be discussed here briefly. A considerable number of traditions are to be found, especially in the earliest Shi'ite collection of hadith, Al-KAAFI, which describe the Imams as supernatural human beings. What was the origin of these traditions, and to what extent are the Imams themselves responsible for them? These traditions are reported, as indeed are all Shi‘i traditions, on the authority of one of the Imams, in this case from Al-Baqir and Ja‘far. But were these Imams really the authors of such traditions, which describe their supernatural character? The first thing which must be noted in this connection is that while Al-Baqir and Ja‘far themselves lived in Medina, most of their followers lived in Kufa. This fact brings us to a crucial problem. Kufa had long been a centre of ghulat speculations and activities. Whether ‘Abd Allah bin Saba, to whom the history of the ghulat is traced, was a real personality or not, the name as-Saba’iyya is often used to describe the ghulat in Kufa who believed in the supernatural character of ‘Ali. According to the heresiographers, Ibn Saba was the first to preach the doctrine of waqf (refusal to recognise the death of ‘Ali) and the first to condemn the first two caliphs in addition to ‘Uthman. (Jafri, The Origins and Early Development of Shi‘a Islam, p. 300, Ansariyan Publications, Qum)

                        This same Kufa, which was the hotbed of Shi'ite activities and ghulat tendencies, was also the home of the most prolific narrators of the hadith which the Shi‘ah ascribe to the Imams, and which are documented in their hadith compendiums such as al-KAAFI, Man La Yahduruhu al-Faqih, Tahdhib al-Ahkam and al-Istibsar. Since it is upon this corpus of narrated material that the entire edifice of Shi‘ism rests, it would be of interest to see what kind of people were these men on whose authority it is narrated from the Imams.

                        Some of the most prolific narrators of the Shi‘ah are

                        Zurarah ibn A`yan

                        Muhammad ibn Muslim at-Ta’ifi

                        Abu Basir Layth ibn al-Bakhtari al-Muradi

                        al-Mufaddal ibn ‘Umar al-Ju‘fi

                        All four of these men were from Kufah. Let us take a closer look at these men:

                        Zurarah ibn A‘yan
                        Sayyid Bahr al-‘Ulum states that the family of A‘yan, of which Zurarah was a scion, was the largest Shi‘i family of Kufa. (Rijal as-Sayyid Bahr al-‘Ulum, a.k.a al-Fawa’id ar-Rijaliyyah, vol. 1 p. 222)

                        Zurarah has always posed a problem in Shi‘ism, because while is on the one hand regarded as the most prolific narrator from the Imams al-Baqir and as-Sadiq, the Imams are also recorded as having cursed and excommunicated him. The Shi‘ah attempt to reconcile these two contradictory attitudes through the dubious and completely unconvincing explanation of taqiyyah by the Imams.

                        Regarding the wealth of narrations which Zurarah reports, we are informed by al-Kashshi that had it not been for Zurarah, the ahadith of al-Baqir would have been lost. (Ikhtiyar Ma‘rifat ar-Rijal vol. 1 p. 345) Sayyid Abul Qasim al-Khu’i has counted 2094 of his narrations in the four books, all of them from the Imams al-Baqir and as-Sadiq, (al-Khu’i, Mu‘jam Rijal al-Hadith vol. 7 p. 249)

                        On the other hand, al-Kashshi records that Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq cursed Zurarah. The following quotation is but one of several places where his cursing of Zurarah is on record:

                        By Allah, he has ascribed lies to me! By Allah, he has ascribed lies to me! By Allah, he has ascribed lies to me! May Allah curse Zurarah! May Allah curse Zurarah! May Allah curse Zurarah! (Ikhtiyar Ma‘`rifat ar-Rijal, vol. 1 p. 361)

                        Despite Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq’s cursing of Zurarah, he is still accepted by the Shi‘ah as the most prolific and reliable authority for the ahadith of the Imams. He hails from Kufa, the centre of the successors of Ibn Saba; he is cursed by the Imam as Ibn Saba was cursed by Sayyiduna ‘Ali; and yet he is respected as a trustworthy and reliable narrator of the ahadith which form the basis of Shi‘ism!

                        Muhammad ibn Muslim
                        Muhammad ibn Muslim is another Kufan narrator whose credentials as a narrator are extremely suspect, but who is accepted by the Shi‘ah as a reliable narrator all the same. This Muhammad ibn Mus, who claims to have heard 30 000 ahadith from Imam Muhammad al-Baqir, and a further 16 000 from his son Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq (See Ikhtiyar Ma‘rifat ar-Rijal vol. 1 p. 391) is also recorded by al-Kashshi to have been cursed by Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq (vol. 1 p. 394) just as Ibn Saba was cursed by his great-grandfather!

                        Abu Basir al-Muradi
                        In Abu Basir we have another very prolific Kufan narrator whose character fails to convince anyone of his trustworthiness. He, together with Zurarah, is regarded of those who preserved the legacy of the Imams al-Baqir and as-Sadiq. He is one of a very select group of narrators about whom it is said that “there is consensus amongst the Shi‘ah to accept what is authentically narrated from them.” (See al-Mamaqani, Miqbas al-Hidayah vol. 2 p. 171)

                        However, Mir Damad in his annotations to Rijal al-Kashshi notes that the Shi‘i hadith critic Abul Husayn ibn al-Ghada’iri said of him:

                        Abu ‘Abdillah (Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq) used to get annoyed and upset with his presence, and his companions are in disagreement amongst themselves about him. I (Ibn al-Ghada’iri) believe that he was cursed on account of (matters pertaining to) his religion, not his narrations. To me he is a trustworthy narrator. (Ikhtiyar Ma‘`rifat ar-Rijal, vol. 1 p. 397. See also al-Ardabili, Jami‘ ar-Ruwat vol. 3 p. 43)

                        Again we have here a most prolific Kufan narrator who was cursed by Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq just like Ibn Saba was cursed by Sayyiduna ‘Ali!

                        Al-Mufaddal ibn ‘Umar
                        Here we have another Kufan narrator who is regarded by eminent Shi‘i hadith critics as a reliable transmitter of the Imams’ hadith. Al-Ardabili in Jami‘ ar-Ruwat (vol. 2 p. 258) records that Shaykh Mufid mentioned al-Mufaddal as belonging to the “inner circle, reliable and pious Fuqaha” of Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq’s followers. Abu Ja‘far at-Tusi too, is quoted as having mentioned al-Mufaddal amongst the mamduhin (praiseworthy).

                        But Imam Ja‘far is recorded by al-Kashshi to have addressed by calling him, “You Kafir! You Mushrik!” (See Ikhtiyar Ma‘rifat ar-Rijal vol. 2 p. 612) Another lengthier narration of al-Kashshi runs as follows:

                        ‘Abdullah ibn Miskan says: Hujr ibn Za’idah and ‘Amir ibn Judha‘ah al-Azdi came to Abu ‘Abdillah [Imam Ja‘far] and told him: “May we be ransomed for you! Mufaddal says that you [the Imams] determine the sustenance of the people.” He [Imam Ja‘far said]: “By Allah, no one besides Allah determines our sustenance. One day I needed food for my family. I was under difficult circumstances and thought hard about it, until I managed to secure food for them. Only then did I feel content. May Allah curse him and disown him.” They asked: “Do you curse and disown him?” He replied: “Yes, so you too, curse him and disown him. May Allah and His messenger disown him.” (Ikhtiyar Ma‘rifat ar-Rijal vol. 2 p. 614)

                        The above narration clearly identifies al-Mufaddal with the heresy originally introduced by Ibn Saba. In the biography of Ibn Saba given in al-Kashshi’s Rijal, Imam al-Baqir is reported to have stated that Ibn Saba claimed himself to be a prophet, and ‘Ali to be Allah (See Ikhtiyar Ma‘rifat ar-Rijal vol. 1 p. 323). If we return to al-Mufaddal’s biography in the same book we find the following:

                        Al-Kashshi says: The extremist Tayyarah mention in some of their books on the authority of al-Mufaddal that he said: “Seventy prophets were killed with Abu Isma‘il, meaning Abul Khattab, each one of whom had seen and announced his prophethood.”

                        [They also say] that he said: Twelve of us were admitted to the presence of Abu ‘Abdillah [Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq]. Abu ‘Abdillah started greeting each one of us, calling each of us by the name of a prophet. To some he said, “Peace be upon you, O Nuh.” To some he said, “Peace be upon you, O Ibrahim,” To last one he greeted he said, “Peace be upon you, O Yunus.” Then he said, “Do not distinguish between the Prophets.” (Ikhtiyar Ma‘rifat ar-Rijal vol. 2 p. 614)

                        This Mufaddal, whom al-Kashshi says was of the extremist Khattabiyyah sect, the followers of Abul Khattab, whose beliefs derived directly from Ibn Saba himself—this Mufaddal is exonerated by contemporary Shi‘i scholars such as Shaykh ‘Abdullah al-Mamaqani, and Sayyid Abul Qasim al-Khu’i as a most reliable and trustworthy transmitter of the knowledge of the Imams. Al-Mamaqani gives a lengthy explanation about what exactly constitutes ghuluww (See Tanqih al-Maqal vol. 3 p. 240 and Miqbas al-Hidayah vol. 2 p. 397) and concludes that the kind of things on account of which al-Mufaddal was labelled as a ghali has since become of the undeniable tenets (daririyyat) of Shi‘ism.


                        We have used the above three narrators merely as a specimen of the men upon whose narrations the edifice of Shi'aism rests. We consistently find disturbing points of resemblance between them and Ibn Saba. They are cursed by the Imams just as Ibn Saba was cursed by Sayyiduna ‘Ali. Some of them held beliefs that are identical to Ibn Saba’s innovations. They hail from Kufa, which Jafri tells us was the stronghold of the Saba’iyyah.

                        Thus, after we have proven the historical existence of Ibn Saba, this investigation into the men responsible for the narration, or creation, of the hadith legacy of the Shi‘ah leads us to the unequivocal conclusion that what exists today as Shi'aism, and specifically Twelver Shi‘ism, contains a substantial chunk of the original heresy of Ibn Saba. We therefore feel that we have quite convincing reasons to look upon ‘Abdullah ibn Saba as the Founder of Shi‘ism.

                        If this conclusion fails to find favour in Shi'ite circles, that cannot be helped. Just as the concern of the Shi‘ah for Muslim unity in the face of the vicious enemies of Islam has never constituted an impediment for them to state exactly how and what they perceive the faith and practice of the Ahl as-Sunnah to be, similarly, we feel that it is only fair if the Ahl as-Sunnah too, can exercise the right to publish their viewpoint on the origin of Shi'aism, without anyone, and least of all the Shi‘ah, demanding from them to consider the danger that poses to Muslim unity.

                        If the state of Iran and its diplomatic representatives in South Africa are sincere in their concern for Muslim unity, we suggest that they take a very serious look at the extent to which Shi‘ism is being propagated in South Africa, as well as the provenance of the funding that supports those missions. Only when you have proven your sincerity for the cause of Islam by removing that essential stumbling block would we feel that your protest against the publication of an article like Abdullah ibn Saba: the Founder of deserves something more than a decisive dismissal.

                        Yours in the service of Islam

                        NOTE: We have copies of all the books you listed except Bihar al-Anwar. It would be greatly appreciated if the embassy could arrange for us to have a copy of Bihar since it is such an invaluable source of reference.


                          Originally posted by sherrybaba:
                          what about your respected Abu Hurraira?He was an "Ex Jew" too right

                          Abu Hurayrah


                          "An Abi Hurayrata, radiyallahu anhu, qal.' qala rasul Allahi, sallallahu alayhi wa sailam..."

                          Through this phrase millions of Muslims from the early history of Islam to the present have come to be familiar with the name Abu Hurayrah. In speeches and lectures, in Friday khutbahs and seminars, in the books of hadith and sirah, fiqh and ibadah, the name Abu Hurayrah is mentioned in this fashion: "On the authority of Abu Hurayrah, may God be pleased with him who said: The Messenger of God, may God bless him and grant him peace, said... ".

                          Through his Prodigious efforts, hundreds of ahadith or sayings of the Prophet were transmitted to later generations. His is the foremost name in the roll of hadith transmitters. Next to him comes the names of such companions as Abdullah the son of Umar, Anas the son of Malik, Umm al-Mumininin Aishah, Jabir ibn Abdullah and Abu Said al-Khudri all of whom transmitted over a thousand sayings of the Prophet.

                          Abu Hurayrah became a Muslim at the hands of at-Tufayl ibn Amr the chieftain of the Daws tribe to which he belonged. The Daws lived in the region of Tihamah which stretches along the coast of the Red Sea in southern Arabia. When at-Tufayl returned to his village after meeting the Prophet and becoming a Muslim in the early years of his mission, Abu Hurayrah was one of the first to respond to his call. He was unlike the majority of the Daws who remained stubborn in their old beliefs for a long time.

                          When at-Tufayl visited Makkah again, Abu Hurayrah accompanied him. There he had the honor and privilege of meeting the noble Prophet who asked him: "What is your name?" "Abdu Shams - Servant of a Sun," he replied.

                          "Instead, let it be Abdur-Rahman - the Servant of the Beneficent Lord," said the Prophet.

                          "Yes, Abdur-Rahman (it shall be) O Messenger of God," he replied. However, he continued to be known as Abu Hurayrah, "the kitten man", literally "the father of a kitten" because like the Prophet he was fond of cats and since his childhood often had a cat to play with.

                          Abu Hurayrah stayed in Tihamah for several years and it was only at the beginning of the seventh year of the Hijrah that he arrived in Madinah with others of his tribe. The Prophet had gone on a campaign to Khaybar. Being destitute, Abu Hurayrah took up his place in the Masjid with other of the Ahl as-Suffah. He was single, without wife or child. With him however was his mother who was still a mushrik. He longed, and prayed, for her to become a Muslim but she adamantly refused. One day, he invited her to have faith in God alone and follow His Prophet but she uttered some words about the Prophet which saddened him greatly. With tears in

                          his eyes, he went to the noble Prophet who said to him: "What makes you cry, O Abu Hurayrah?" "I have not let up in inviting my mother to Islam but she has always rebuffed me. Today, I invited her again and I heard words from her which I do not like. Do make supplication to God Almighty to make the heart of Abu Hurayrah's mother incline to Islam."

                          The Prophet responded to Abu Hurayrah's request and prayed for his mother. Abu Hurayrah said: "I went home and found the door closed. I heard the splashing of water and when I tried to enter my mother said: "Stay where you are, O Abu Hurayrah." And after putting on her clothes, she said, "Enter!" I entered and she said: "I testify that there is no god but Allah and I testify that Muhammad is His Servant and His Messenger."

                          "I returned to the Prophet, peace be on him, weeping with joy just as an hour before I had gone weeping from sadness and said: "I have good news, O Messenger of Allah. God has responded to your prayer and guided the mother of Abu Hurayrah to Islam."

                          Abu Hurayrah loved the Prophet a great deal and found favor with him. He was never tired of looking at the Prophet whose face appeared to him as having all the radiance of the sun and he was never tired of listening to him. Often he would praise God for his good fortune and say: "Praise be to God Who has guided Abu Hurayrah to Islam." Praise be to God Who has taught Abu Hurayrah the Quran."

                          "Praise be to God who has bestowed on Abu Hurayrah the companionship of Muhammad, may God bless him and grant him peace." On reaching Madinah, Abu Hurayrah set his heart on attaining knowledge. Zayd ibn Thabit the notable companion of the Prophet reported: "While Abu Hurayrah and I and another friend of mine were in the Masjid praying to God Almighty and performing dhikr to Him, the Messenger of God appeared. He came towards us and sat among us. We became silent and he said: "Carry on with what you were doing."

                          "So my friend and I made a supplication to God before Abu Hurayrah did and the Prophet began to say Ameen to our dua.

                          "Then Abu Hurayrah made a supplication saying: "O Lord, I ask You for what my two companions have asked and I ask You for knowledge which will not be forgotten."

                          "The Prophet, peace be on him, said: 'Ameen.' "We then said: 'And we ask Allah for knowledge which will not be forgotten, and the Prophet replied: 'The Dawsi youth has asked for this before you." "With his formidable memory, Abu Hurayrah set out to memorize in the four years that he spent with the Prophet, the gems of wisdom that emanated from his lips. He realized that he had a great gift and he set about to use it to the full in the service of Islam.

                          He had free time at his disposal. Unlike many of the Muhajirin he did not busy himself' in the market-places, with buying and selling. Unlike many of the Ansar, he had no land to cultivate nor crops to tend. He stayed with the Prophet in Madinah and went with him on journeys and expeditions.

                          Many companions were amazed at the number of hadith he had memorized and often questioned him on when he had heard a certain hadith and under what circumstances.

                          Once Marwan ibn al-Hakam wanted to test Abu Hurayrah's power of memory. He sat with him in one room and behind a curtain he placed a scribe, unknown to Abu Hurayrah, and ordered him to write down whatever Abu Hurayrah said. A year later, Marwan called Abu Hurayrah again and asked him to recall the same ahadith which the scribe had recorded. It was found that he had forgotten not a single word.

                          Abu Hurayrah was concerned to teach and transmit the ahadith he had memorized and knowledge of Islam in general. It is reported that one day he passed through the suq of Madinah and naturally saw people engrossed in the business of buying and selling.

                          "How feeble are you, O people of Madinah!" he said. "What do you see that is feeble in us, Abu Hurayrah?" they asked. "The inheritance of the Messenger of God, peace be on him, is being distributed and you remain here! Won't you go and take your portion?" "Where is this, O Abu Hurayrah?" they asked. "In the Masjid," he replied.

                          Quickly they left. Abu Hurayrah waited until they returned. When they saw him, they said: "O Abu Hurayrah, we went to the Masjid and entered and we did not see anything being distributed." "Didn't you see anyone in the Masjid?" he asked. "O yes, we saw some people performing Salat, some people reading the Quran and some people discussing about what is halal and what is haram." "Woe unto you," replied Abu Hurayrah," that is the inheritance of Muhammad, may God bless him and grant him peace."

                          Abu Hurayrah underwent much hardship and difficulties as a result of his dedicated search for knowledge. He was often hungry and destitute. He said about himself:

                          "When I was afflicted with severe hunger, I would go to a companion' of the Prophet and asked him about an ayah of the Quran and (stay with him) learning it so that he would take me with him to his house and give food. "One day, my hunger became so severe that I placed a stone on my stomach. I then sat down in the path of the companions. Abu Bakr passed by and I asked him about an ayah of the Book of God. I only asked him so that he would invite me but he didn't.

                          "Then Umar ibn al-Khattab passed by me and I asked him about an ayah but he also did not invite me. Then the Messenger of God, peace be on him, passed by and realized that I was hungry and said: "Abu Hurayrah!" "At your command" I replied and followed him until we entered his house. He found a bowl of milk and asked his family: "From where did you get this?" "Someone sent it to you" they replied. He then said to me: "O Abu Hurayrah, go to the Ahl as-Suffah and invite them." Abu Hurayrah did as he was told and they all drank from the milk.

                          The time came of course when the Muslims were blessed with great wealth and material goodness of every description. Abu Hurayrah eventually got his share of wealth. He had a comfortable home, a wife and child. But this turn of fortune did not change his personality. Neither did he forget his days of destitution. He would "I grew up as an orphan and I emigrated as a poor and indigent person. I used to take food for my stomach from Busrah bint Ghazwan. I served people when they returned from journeys and led their camels when they set out. Then God caused me to marry her (Busrah). So praise be to God who has strengthened his religion and made Abu Hurayrah an imam." (This last statement is a reference to the time when he became governor of Madinah.)

                          Much of Abu Hurayrah's time would be spent in spiritual exercises and devotion to God. Qiyam al-Layl staying up for the night in prayer and devotion - was a regular practice of his family including his wife and his daughter. He would stay up for a third of the night, his wife for another third and his daughter for a third. In this way, in the house of Abu Hurayrah no hour of the night would pass without ibadah, dhikr and Salat.

                          During the caliphate of Umar, Umar appointed him as governor of Bakrain. Umar was very scrupulous about the type of persons whom he appointed as governors. He was always concerned that his governors should live simply and frugally and not acquire much wealth even though this was through lawful means.

                          In Bahrain, Abu Hurayrah became quite rich. Umar

                          heard of this and recalled him to Madinah. Umar thought

                          he had acquired his wealth through unlawful means and

                          questioned him about where and how he had acquired

                          such a fortune. Abu Hurayrah replied: "From breeding horses and gifts which I received." "Hand it over to the treasury of the Muslims," ordered Umar.

                          Abu Hurayrah did as he was told and raised his hands

                          to the heavens and prayed: "O Lord, forgive the Amir al-Muminin." Subsequently, Umar asked him to become governor

                          once again but he declined. Umar asked him why he

                          refused and he said: "So that my honor would not be besmirched, my wealth taken and my back beaten." And he added: "And I fear to judge without knowledge and speak

                          without wisdom."

                          Throughout his life Abu Hurayrah remained kind and

                          courteous to his mother. Whenever he wanted to leave

                          home, he would stand at the door of her room and say: As-salaamu alaykum, yaa ummataah, wa rahrnatullahi wa barakatuhu, peace be on you, mother, and the

                          mercy and blessings of God." She would reply: "Wa alayka-s salaam, yaa bunayya, wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu - And on you be peace, my son, and the mercy and blessings of God." Often, he would also say: "May God have mercy on you as you cared for me when I was small," and she would reply: "May God have mercy on you as you delivered me from error when I was old." Abu Hurayrah always encouraged other people to be

                          kind and good to their parents. One day he saw two men walking together, one older than the other. He asked the younger one: "What is this man to you?" "My father," the person replied.

                          "Don't call him by his name. Don't walk in front of him and don't sit before him," advised Abu Hurayrah.

                          Muslims owe a debt of gratitude to Abu Hurayrah for helping to preserve and transmit the valuable legacy of the Prophet, may God bless him and grant him peace. He died in the year 59 AH when he was seventy-eight years old.


                            Originally posted by sherrybaba:
                            You still seem to be ignorant about taqayyah even though I tried to clear the misconception in one of the thread but you intentionally ignored it..I wonder why..
                            Ok, we'll discuss it in the Shia-Sunni thread. Please raise your points there.

                            (Do not open many threads since that will divert the readers).


                              What our sunni scholars say about Sayf, the creator of this ficticious character Abdullah ibn Saba:

                              The following leading Sunni scholars confirm that Sayf Ibn Umar was a well-
                              known liar and untrustworthy:

                              (1) al-Hakim (d. 405 AH) wrote: "Sayf is accused of being a heretic. His
                              narrations are abandoned."

                              (2) al-Nisa'i (d. 303 AH) wrote: "Sayf's narrations are weak and they
                              should be disregarded because he was unreliable and untrustworthy."

                              (3) Yahya Ibn Mueen (d. 233 AH) wrote: "Sayf's narrations are weak and

                              (4) Abu Hatam (d. 277 AH) wrote: "Sayf's Hadith is rejected."

                              (5) Ibn Abi Hatam (d. 327 AH) wrote: "Scholars have abandoned Sayf's

                              (6) Abu Dawud (d. 316 AH) wrote: "Sayf is nothing. He was a liar. Some of
                              his Hadiths were conveyed and the majority of them are denied."

                              (7) Ibn Habban (d. 354 AH) wrote: "Sayf attributed fabricated traditions
                              to the good reporters. He was accused of being a heretic and a liar."

                              (8) Ibn Abd al-Barr (d. 462 AH) mentined in his writing abut al-Qa'qa:
                              "Sayf reported that al-Qa'qa Said: I attended the death of the Prophet
                              Muhammad." Ibn Adb al-Barr continued: "Ibn Abu Hatam said: Sayf is
                              weak. Thus, what was conveyed of the presence of al-Qa'qa at the death
                              of the Prophet is rejected. We mentioned the Sayf's traditions for
                              knowledge only."

                              (9) al-Darqutini (d. 385 AH) wrote: "Sayf is weak".

                              (10) Firoozabadi (d. 817 AH) in "Towalif" mentioned Sayf and some others by
                              saying: "They are weak."

                              (11) Ibn al-Sakan (d. 353 AH) wrote: "Sayf is weak."

                              (12) Safi al-Din (d. 923 AH) wrote: "Sayf is considered weak."

                              (13) Ibn Udei (d. 365 AH) wrote about Sayf: "He is weak. Some of his
                              narrations are famous yet the majority of his narrations are
                              disgraceful and not followed."

                              (14) al-Suyuti (d. 900 AH) wrote: "Sayf's Hadith is weak."

                              (15) Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani (d. 852 AH) wrote after mentioning a tradition:
                              "Many reporters of this tradition are weak, and the weakest among them
                              is Sayf."