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    The Infallibility of the Prophets

    The Holy Imam in this debate is our 8th Imam, Hazrat Imam Raza (a.s) and the debate about the infallability of the Prophets follows like this.......

    The Infallibility of the Prophets

    Holy Imam(A.S.) Debates Ali ibn al-Jahm

    The Holy Imam (A.S.) conducted a very magnificent debate with Ali al-Jahm dealing with the infallibility of prophets in which he explained in a very beautiful way the actual meaning of some verses which may on the surface give the impression to the contrary.

    Interpreting the Holy Qur'an According to One's Opinion

    The Holy Imam (A.S.) started his discussion with Ali ibn al-Jahm by criticizing him and those who interpreted the Book of God according to their own viewpoint, stating that he and those have to refer to those whom God endowed with the faculty of knowledge and understanding in order to learn the actual and accurate interpretation of its verses according to the sacred verse which says, "And none knows its interpretation except God and those deeply grounded in knowledge."

    (Sura Al-Imran,Ayah 7)

    Interpreting Verses Whose Superficial Meaning Suggests Prophet's Fallibility

    Then the Holy Imam (A.S.) started explaining the verses whose superficial meaning indicates the fallibility of and possibility of sinning by prophets. He indicated that Adam's transgression took place while he was in Paradise, not on earth, and the infallibility in question is earthly, and that he did not commit any act as long as he lived on earth which contradicted his infallibility as proven by the sacred verse: "God did indeed choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of Imran above all people."(Sura Al-Imran,Ayat 33) As regarding the verse which states: "And remember Zun-nun when he departed in wrath; he imagined that We had no power over him, but he cried through the depths of darkness, `There is no god but Thou! Glory to Thee; I was indeed wrong,'"(Sura Al-Anbiya,Ayat 87) what is meant by "he imagined that We had no power over him" is that he realized that God was not going to sustain him." Had he thought that God was unable to overpower him, he would have then committed kufr (disbelief) and he would have also committed 'isyan, transgression.As regarding the verse "And (with passion) did she desire him, and he would have desired her,"(Sura Yusuf,Ayat 24) the case regarding what the wife of al-'Aziz wanted, and what Yousuf (A.S.) desired to do, are two different things, for she wanted to commit a sin while he desired to kill her if she forced him; therefore, God saved him from the deed of killing her and its terrible consequences, and saved her from her own wishful desire to commit a sin.As regarding David, his statement that the defendant had committed injustice by asking for the goat, it was an error only within the framework of the case, and it took place before he had asked the defendant about his defense against the plaintiff's claim, and it is not a transgression, for God corrected for him his decision by bringing him the example of the two kings. As regarding his marriage with the widow of Oorya, which was regarded by people at that time as a sin and criticized him for it, it was done for the sake of effecting a legislative interest whereby David wanted to shatter the then prevalent custom of a widow not getting married after the death of her husband. It is similar to what happened to the Holy Prophet(S.A.W.) with Zainab daughter of Jahsh, wife of Zayd ibn Haritha who had been adopted by the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.), for the Holy Prophet(S.A.W.), by marrying Zainab after granting her divorce from Zayd, wanted to shatter the pre-Islamic custom whereby a man would not be permitted to marry the former wife of someone he had adopted as is clear in the text of the Holy Qur'an. The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) was apprehensive of the criticism of the hypocrites of his action, so the Almighty addressed him by saying, "Do not fear people; it is more fitting that you should fear God,"(Sura Al-Ahzab, Ayat 37) since it was God Who ordered him to marry her as we understand from the verse, "Then when Zayd had dissolved (his marriage) with her, with the necessary (formality), We joined her in marriage to thee in order that (henceforth) there may be no difficulty to the believers in (the matter of) marrying the wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have dissolved with the necessary (formality, their marriage) with them, and God's command must be fulfilled."(Sura Al-Ahzab,Ayat 37)By providing such glorious knowledge of the exegesis of sacred Qur'anic verses, and by giving such honest interpretations which safeguard the integrity of the context, the Holy Imam (A.S.) used to dispel the unusual confusion of those who did not have a deep actual understanding of the Glorious Book of God.


    #2
    Originally posted by Shah Jahan:
    Ibrahim, I couldnt care less if you gave us a 100 million sunni Hadiths.

    Ibrahim says : salaams to all

    Shah Jahan dear, EXACTLY! That is why you are a shia and will always oppose Islam based on your preconceived notions. NO Hadiths, NO Qur’anic ayahs will be accepted by you if it did not conform to your shia notions and you can care less about them when it does not favor you.

    BTW what hadiths will you accept if any?

    I need Quran to belive you.
    Ibrahim says: Exactly and when the Qur’an is quoted you will turn around and say my imam and shakir translations, says it means this and that, and you will reject that too. [b] And your so called infallible imams will not accept it because they believed the shia Qur’an which is three times more than the actual Qur’an revealed to the Prophet (pbuh) is hidden in the cave with imam mahdi ( the 12th Shia imam who went missing when he was 5 years old , how long has that been??? for the 12 er’s sect in shi’ism) , which was indeed true, unfortunately they already found that Qur’an and it is now kept by the Jews better known as the dead sea scrolls. The only scripture that had been found hidden in a cave as the shias have been claiming.

    You see shi'ism is more based on judaism as the customs are similar and the founder was a jew.

    At the same time the 7 ners ( another shia sect )consider that absurd and some believe Ali(ra ) is their god and others sects of shi'ites consider Aga Khan is their god .

    Plus, Shias belive the prophet was a man but not the way a 'normal' man was. For he is/was and will forever be infallable and there is no proof of his making a mistake.......(Again I dont want a hadith. I want quran)
    Ibrahim says: But Brother Sholay did quote the Qur’an and you still rejected it, are you going to tell me If I quote another ayah you will accept it?

    I will indeed quote for you an ayah from the Qur’an, [b] the moment you tell me on what basis you will accept it and on what basis you will reject it?

    I await your response!

    Plus If Allah made the Ahlul bayt free from all unpurities that means they are infallible for only unpre people can be fallable! you contradict youself my friend!
    Ibrahim says; That is due to your lack of reasoning powers and not due to any contradiction on my part. You see, no man sent to this planet to be tested is infallible, ever, if any were infallible they won’t be on this planet, they will be in heaven period! And if any are infalliable they need not be sent here to be tested by Allah (swt) , it is as simple as that.

    Every human being will be tested because they are fallible and easily decived by the devil, IF the prophet (pbuh) was tested to his last breath why are you adamant about matters that you have not understood.?

    Lastly is any of your holy imams here to discuss this are will you be able to answer the questions at hand?

    Was salaam
    Ibrahim


    he who wishes to secure the good for others , has already secured his own

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Ibrahim:
      Ibrahim says; That is due to your lack of reasoning powers and not due to any contradiction on my part. You see, no man sent to this planet to be tested is infallible, ever, if any were infallible they won’t be on this planet, they will be in heaven period! And if any are infalliable they need not be sent here to be tested by Allah (swt) , it is as simple as that.

      Every human being will be tested because they are fallible and easily decived by the devil, IF the prophet (pbuh) was tested to his last breath why are you adamant about matters that you have not understood.?

      Lastly is any of your holy imams here to discuss this are will you be able to answer the questions at hand?

      Was salaam
      Ibrahim

      But Surly Allah has sent perfect beings to guide us imperfect ones to his path. For if these people were imperfect themselves, we wouldnt have been following them would we?

      If Allah can create the sun to give us perfect light during the day, can he send a perfect being to guide us during our lives? Every muslim Admits to the prophet's perfectness and once something is perfect, it becomes infallable! Simple!

      Originally posted by Ibrahim:
      Ibrahim says : salaams to all

      Shah Jahan dear, EXACTLY! That is why you are a shia and will always oppose Islam based on your preconceived notions. NO Hadiths, NO Qur’anic ayahs will be accepted by you if it did not conform to your shia notions and you can care less about them when it does not favor you.

      BTW what hadiths will you accept if any?
      If you wish to go on a mudslinging match on our deficencies then I am more than ready to insult you aswell and call you an ignorant sunni! To accept and understand my veiw point you must get rid of what you think of me and come to discuss with an open mind. You must put aside the fact that I am an ignorant shia and brace yourslef for what I have to say! If you think we shias are so pig headed and arrogant, I suggest you keep well out of our way and dont try to explain anything to us!

      I have had just about enough of your foolish mudslinging and high headed ways. To make this a more pleasant atmosphere I suggesst you stup the crap and come out with facts!

      Now, shall we move on?

      Originally posted by Ibrahim:
      I
      brahim says: Exactly and when the Qur’an is quoted you will turn around and say my imam and shakir translations, says it means this and that, and you will reject that too. And your so called infallible imams will not accept it because they believed the shia Qur’an which is three times more than the actual Qur’an revealed to the Prophet (pbuh) is hidden in the cave with imam mahdi ( the 12th Shia imam who went missing when he was 5 years old , how long has that been??? for the 12 er’s sect in shi’ism) , which was indeed true, unfortunately they already found that Qur’an and it is now kept by the Jews better known as the dead sea scrolls. The only scripture that had been found hidden in a cave as the shias have been claiming.

      You see shi'ism is more based on judaism as the customs are similar and the founder was a jew.

      At the same time the 7 ners ( another shia sect )consider that absurd and some believe Ali(ra ) is their god and others sects of shi'ites consider Aga Khan is their god .

      Now where did you get this age old idea from? I have suffice evidene to correct your absurd ideas and hope you will for once and for all accept them.

      Quran: We have the same Quran as you do and do not belive it has been tampered with. (I can only assure you from the twelver's side and not any other shia sect) Our 'hidden' Imam will come with the true transalation of the quran and what it is really supposed to mean.

      I have already said you should stop the mudslinging and if I see one more degrading remark by You I swear to god I will not participate in in a conversation with you. Shias have dignity and it is high time you guys started respecting us!

      I am only responsible for the twelever's belif and our belif if that there is one Allah(the supreme being who hears all sees alla. he begets not, nor is he begotten) and Mohammed is his last(and greatest) prophet.

      Originally posted by Ibrahim:
      [b]Ibrahim says: But Brother Sholay did quote the Qur’an and you still rejected it, are you going to tell me If I quote another ayah you will accept it?

      I will indeed quote for you an ayah from the Qur’an, the moment you tell me on what basis you will accept it and on what basis you will reject it?
      But I have replied to Brother Sgolay and given a paragraph about it aswell.
      I belive in the same quran as you do and would just love it if you would care to explain why my beloved prophet made mistakes..

      I await you civil(hopefully) reply and I remind you, keep the mudslinging away from this thread or i will be forced to call up teh mods about it. Most people cannot stand insults to their faith and nor do I. If you have a problem, present it properly and stop calling me an 'ignorant' shia..

      Comment


        #4

        Shah Jahan

        Here are two ayats that I posted in a previous thread from the Qur'aan which actually nullify your cliams concerning infallibility:


        028.015 And he entered the city at a time when its people were not watching: and he found there two men fighting,- one of his own religion, and the other, of his foes. Now the man of his own religion appealed to him against his foe, and Moses struck him with his fist and made an end of him. He said: "This is a work of Evil (Satan): for he is an enemy that manifestly misleads!"

        028.016 He prayed: "O my Lord! I have indeed wronged my soul! Do Thou then forgive me!" So (Allah) forgave him: for He is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

        Secondly,

        020.120 But Satan whispered evil to him: he said, "O Adam! shall I lead thee to the Tree of Eternity and to a kingdom that never decays?"

        020.121 In the result, they both ate of the tree, and so their nakedness appeared to them: they began to sew together, for their covering, leaves from the Garden: thus did Adam disobey his Lord, and allow himself to be seduced.

        These ayats are self explanatory.

        Now the questions you need to answer are, did Moses commit wrong by taking the life? and did Adam commit wrong by disobeying Allah.

        Remember, both were Prophets!

        Or do you think an Imaam has a higher status than a Prophet?

        Finally, the ayat you quoted in the prevoious thread concerning the family and purity, is also self explanatory.

        Why?

        Because Allah stipulates a condition for the purity. It did not state that they were BORN pure!!!


        Comment


          #5
          Ibrahim says: salaams to all

          Shah Jahan dear, Firstly I asked a number of questions which was based on your original reply on the other thread where you failed to respond, initially.

          So let me make them again

          sha jahan wtote: I need Quran to belive you........(Again I dont want a hadith. I want quran)
          1) If I quote another ayah will you accept it?

          I will indeed quote for you an ayah from the Qur’an which will destroy you infallible theory and expose your assertions as erroneous , the moment you tell me on what basis you will accept it and on what basis you will reject it?

          I await your response!

          Let us see what you had to say today………….

          But Surly Allah has sent perfect beings to guide us imperfect ones to his path.
          Ibrahim says: That is your desire, what you do not realize is that Allah (swt) did not create a perfect being and an imperfect being ( two separate creations of mankind) so that one can lead the other.

          The first creation was indeed a perfect being but as you know, like all human beings we can easily be misled, which is the case of Prophet Adam (pbuh) and the reason for us to end up on this planet is to prove to ourselves and Allah (swt) that we can remain perfect immaterial of the ordeal we have to face in life.

          For if these people were imperfect themselves, we wouldnt have been following them would we?
          Ibrahim says; You have not been created as an imperfect being to be led by a perfect being , you have been created like the first creation and out of his lineage were created the rest of mankind. The human beings saved in the ark by Prophet Nuh (pbuh) , were all Muslims out of that lineage comes the rest of us in this current time frame. so tell me who is imperfect and when did Allah (swt) create such a being? The problem is we have been given free will as such some of us will behave ourselves and others may do as they please. In this respect the Prophet (pbuh) proved that he is the best amongst us. Not an angel but a human being performing as Allah (swt) intended us to be, in the first place.

          If Allah can create the sun to give us perfect light during the day, can he send a perfect being to guide us during our lives?
          Ibrahim says: Everything created by Allah (swt) has a purpose, the purpose of man is to submit and be creative in the form as originally designed by Allah (swt)

          But a challenge was made by another creation which became imperfect out of pride, hence it chose to mislead mankind, which resulted in man’s fall.

          The first creation is a perfect creation, but that does not make mankind infallible.

          Originally posted by Shah Jahan:

          Ibrahim, I couldnt care less if you gave us a 100 million sunni Hadiths.

          Originally posted by Ibrahim:

          Ibrahim says : salaams to all

          Shah Jahan dear, EXACTLY! That is why you are a shia and will always oppose Islam based on your preconceived notions. NO Hadiths, NO Qur’anic ayahs will be accepted by you if it did not conform to your shia notions and you can care less about them when it does not favor you.

          BTW what hadiths will you accept if any?


          Sha Jahan : I have had just about enough of your foolish mudslinging and high headed ways. To make this a more pleasant atmosphere I suggesst you stup the crap and come out with facts! Now, shall we move on?
          Ibrahim says can you tell me what was all that about?? and where is the mud slinging in my response?

          Now, shall we move on?
          Ibrahim says : will you answer or not? My question was BTW what hadiths will you accept if any????? Or do you reject hadiths all together ???



          Now where did you get this age old idea from?
          Ibrahim says: they come from your ancestors who recorded them in their books.

          I have suffice evidene to correct your absurd ideas and hope you will for once and for all accept them.
          Ibrahim says: will you be able to destroy your books too that is considred sacred by the shia community or will you just assert it is like this now?


          Our 'hidden' Imam will come with the true transalation of the quran and what it is really supposed to mean.
          Ibrahim says : what?

          1) You mean the current Arabic originals needs another translation to be understood?

          2) and in what language will that be in?

          3) And when was that revealed or translated and by whom?

          4) why did the hidden imam take it with him, if it had been revealed earlier, did he not care for your well being? Did he hope to keep us blind of this true translation for so long?

          5) when will he come and when will we get saved if we are all not having the correct translations of the Qur’an ??

          My questions are based on your assertions . so don’t tell me they are mudslinging.

          Shias have dignity and it is high time you guys started respecting us!
          Ibrahim says: Sha Jahan dear all human beings have dignity and no body is stepping on it, not me, I am just trying to make you realize your errors . so far as I am concerned If I felt you did not deserve any dignity I will not be wishing you salaam even ! It is as simple as that. So now stay on the topic and answer my questions.


          I belive in the same quran as you do and would just love it if you would care to explain why my beloved prophet made mistakes..
          Ibrahim says: Turn your vision to………

          17: 70 We have honored the sons of Adam; provided them with transport on land and sea; given them for sustenance things good and pure; and conferred on them special favors above a great part of Our Creation

          17: 77 (This was Our) way with the apostles We sent before thee: thou wilt find no change in Our ways.

          17: 83 Yet when We bestow Our favors on man he turns away and becomes remote on his side (instead of coming to Us) and when Evil seizes him he gives himself up to despair!

          84 Say: "Everyone acts according to his own disposition: but your Lord knows best who it is that is best guided on the Way

          85 They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you (O men!)

          Ibrahim says Shah Jahan dear, will you accept this ayahs or their meanings have been distorted and we need the hidden translation to understand them? Will you accept the fact that the Prophets had all been guided but what was given to mankind was only a little , hence the Prophets (pbut) cannot be infallible , their performance is limited to what they know and what is within their ability to understand or control and Allah (swt) alone knows best as such only Allah (swt) is infallible.

          Before I continue this, I needed to have the answer for my first question which was If I quote another ayah to show the Prophet (pbuh) was fallible, will you accept it?
          I will indeed quote for you an ayah from the Qur’an to prove the Prophet (pbuh) was fallible, the moment you tell me on what basis you will accept it and on what basis you will reject it?

          I await your response! And please don’t tell me I am mudslinging .

          Was salaam
          Ibrahim

          Sharpen your mind not your blade

          Comment


            #6
            In another thread, Shah Jahan quoted following ayat to prove the notion that the Household of Prophet PBUH (and himself as well) was "pure" and unable to commit a sin:
            33.33) And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Apostle. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying[/b]
            ---------------------------------------------

            If they were already "purified", why would Allah SWT desire to "purify"?

            Lets suppose that after following Allah SWT's command the household got "purified"... to the extent that they can't commit sin, then consider this ayat:

            [5.6] O you who believe! when you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash (yourselves) and if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy, or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith, Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful.

            So following this command will "purify" everyone too?

            ------------------
            May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Shah Jahan:
              ......
              But Surly Allah has sent perfect beings to guide us imperfect ones to his path. For if these people were imperfect themselves, we wouldnt have been following them would we?


              Who is better:
              - a person who is fallible but didn't commit a sin ?
              - a person who is infallible so does not commit a sin ?

              Why would Allah SWT want us to follow an infallible? That'd mean that we can't consider Prophet PBUH as "ideal human being"? I hope you get what I am trying to say here.

              Every muslim Admits to the prophet's perfectness and once something is perfect, it becomes infallable! Simple!

              WRONG. If something is "perfect" it does not mean that it is "infallible". If someone is fallible and still does not commit a sin, that'd be more perfect, wouldn't he?
              ------------------
              May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

              [This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited May 24, 2002).]

              Comment


                #8
                Please pardon my inability to read through the 10 page long arguments. Though I would like to ask Shah Jahan one thing:

                Is it your belief that AnHazoor (saw) was infallible, as with the special blessings of Allah he was saved them from ever committing a sin? And the previous prophets where fallible as stated in Quran but they prayed for forgiveness and it was granted?

                If the above is your belief that I totally agree with it!

                I don't know where the 'household' of AnHazoor came into all of this.
                I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
                - Robert McCloskey

                Comment


                  #9
                  Perhaps i may be of assistance .

                  The argument is totally rational.

                  We acknowledge that Muhammed(Pbuh) is the messenger of Allah, and he was given a message to deliver to mankind.

                  Now if, Muhammed(pbuh) made a mistake in delivering the message (i.e committed a sin), then rationally that means there is a mistake in the message.

                  Now we have to ask ourselves, who chose Muhammed(pbuh) for prophethood ?

                  Allah(Swt) obviously, now, if there is a mistake in the message, then that means Allah made a mistake in choosing Muhammed(pbuh) as a messenger(astagfirullah) .

                  We know that Allah cannot make a mistake, because he is an unlimited being and is perfect, so therefore the prophets are infallable.

                  Going onto Musa(AS), First of all if he did commit any sin, it was BEFORE prophethood.
                  And secondly, all he did was hit that guy, and the guy died.

                  Same goes for Adam(AS) , remember, he committed sin BEFORE prophethood. He was only brought into prophethood when he was sent to earth.

                  Hope that helps clarify things as its a totally rational argument

                  Comment


                    #10
                    The argument is totally rational.
                    We acknowledge that Muhammed(Pbuh) is the messenger of Allah, and he was given a message to deliver to mankind.
                    Now if, Muhammed(pbuh) made a mistake in delivering the message (i.e committed a sin), then rationally that means there is a mistake in the message.
                    Ibrahim says : Salaams to all

                    Dear Eemo, the rationality of this argument becomes irrational when you understand the facts.

                    The facts are, Earlier prophets will reveal what is to come, meaning they will prophesize as per Allah (swt) wishes and they will reveal what will happened in the future. And those events will come to pass as predicted.

                    Hence you would have not concluded as you did, had you known what was conveyed by Allah (swt) to Prophet Musa (pbuh)
                    So lets refer to the Bible to note what had transpired.

                    Deuteronomy 18:

                    17. The LORD said to me( Moses) : "What they say is good.

                    18. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.

                    19. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.
                    Ibrahim says hence the final Prophet which we know for sure was Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) will do all of the above

                    Meaning

                    1) He will a human being like Moses (pbuh)

                    2) He will not speak on his own ( when it comes to revelation) but speak the words given to him ( put into his mouth) by Allah (swt)

                    3) He will speak in Allah’s name, meaning he will say “In the name of Allah” , Bismillah.

                    So now let us look at the Qur’an to see if this is true.

                    23: 25 Not an apostle did We send before thee without this inspiration sent by Us to him: that there is no god but I; therefore worship and serve Me.

                    26 And they say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten offspring." Glory to Him! they are (but) servants raised to honor.

                    27 They speak not before He speaks and they act (in all things) by His command

                    42: 51 It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration of from behind a veil or by the sending of a Messenger to reveal with Allah's permission what Allah wills: for He is Most High Most Wise.

                    52 And thus have We by Our command sent inspiration to thee: thou knowest not (before) what was Revelation and what was Faith; but We have made the (Qur'an) a Light wherewith We guide such of Our servants as We will; and verily thou dost guide (men) to the Straight Way

                    8: 20 O ye who believe! obey Allah and his apostle and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak).
                    Ibrahim says: as such what the Prophet (pbuh) revealed to Muslims and mankind, as given by Allah (swt) is compiled by Allah (swt) as the Qur’an for us. They do not contain his personal words but ONLY Allah (swt) words to mankind.

                    Dear Eemo, Thus your arguments does not stand.

                    We know that Allah cannot make a mistake, because he is an unlimited being and is perfect, so therefore the prophets are infallable.
                    Ibrahim says : this is also an error, so let me relate to you what Allah (swt) said……….
                    Surah 18:

                    64 Moses said: "That was what we were seeking after": so they went back on their footsteps following (the path they had come).

                    65 So they found one of Our servants on whom We had bestowed Mercy from Ourselves and whom We had taught knowledge from Our own presence.

                    Ibrahim says: Thus Nabi Musa (pbuh) , had to search for another man to guide him even though he is the chosen prophet at that time frame, , this was because he had some doubts concerning how Allah (swt) manages the affairs of mankind.

                    Lets continue….

                    66 Moses said to him: "May I follow thee on the footing that thou teach me something of the (Higher) Truth which thou hast been taught?"

                    Ibrahim says: Thus Nabi Musa acknowledged that the other person knew more, this even though Allah (swt) had spoken to him directly (which no other Prophet had been fortunate enough to do) and had given him numerous miracles to perform as well as given him the Torah to preach.

                    Lets continue…..

                    67 (The other) said: "Verily thou wilt not be able to have patience with me!

                    68 "And how canst thou have patience about things about which thy understanding is not complete?"

                    Ibrahim says : So nabi Musa (as) did not have complete understanding as such even though he was Nabi he was fallible but this man whom no one knew, had been vested with wisdom, that the Nabi was lacking. Thus Allah (swt) sent Nabi Musa to understand how Allah (swt ) establishes and ensures justice on the Planet. By means of other man who are guided by Allah (swt)

                    Lets continue…..

                    69 Moses said: "Thou wilt find me if Allah so will (truly) patient: nor shall I disobey thee in aught."
                    70 The other said: "If then thou wouldst follow me ask me no questions about anything until I myself speak to thee concerning it."


                    Ibrahim says: the condition of that unknown man upon nabi Musa (as) was , Look I know what I am doing, so just follow me, if that is your desire , but do not stop me from doing what I am doing.

                    Lets continue…

                    71 So they both proceeded: until when they were in the boat he scuttled it. Said Moses: "Hast thou scuttled it in order to drown those in it? Truly a strange thing hast thou done!"

                    72 He answered: "Did I not tell thee that thou canst have no patience with me?"


                    73 Moses said: "Rebuke me not for forgetting nor grieve me by raising difficulties in my case."

                    74 Then they proceeded: until when they met a young man he slew him. Moses said: "Hast thou slain an innocent person who had slain none? Truly a foul (unheard-of) thing hast thou done!"


                    75 He answered: "Did I not tell thee that thou canst have no patience with me?"

                    76 (Moses) said: "If ever I ask thee about anything after this keep me not in thy company: then wouldst thou have received (full) excuse from my side."


                    77 Then they proceeded: until when they came to the inhabitants of a town they asked them for food but they refused them hospitality. They found there a wall on the point of falling down but he set it up straight. (Moses) said: "If thou hadst wished surely thou couldst have exacted some recompense for it!"

                    78 He answered: "This is the parting between me and thee: now will I tell thee the interpretation of (those things) over which thou wast unable to hold patience.


                    79 As for the boat it belonged to certain men in dire want: they plied on the water: I but wished to render it unserviceable for there was after them a certain king who seized on every boat by force.

                    80 "As for the youth his parents were people of Faith and we feared that he would grieve them by obstinate rebellion and ingratitude (to Allah and man).


                    81 "So we desired that their Lord would give them in exchange (a son) better in purity (of conduct) and closer in affection.

                    82 "As for the wall it belonged to two youths orphans in the Town; there was beneath it a buried treasure to which they were entitled: their father had been a righteous man: so thy Lord desired that they should attain their age of full strength and get out their treasure a mercy (and favor) from thy Lord. I did it not of my own accord. Such is the interpretation of (those things) over which thou wast unable to hold patience."

                    Ibrahim says ear Eemo, Now was anything above too difficult for you to understand?
                    Was Nabi Musa (as) fallible or infallible ? remember Nabi Musa (as) was chosen from birth.

                    Thus, your rational arguments was irrational from the start due to limited understanding and preconceived notions.

                    Hope that helps

                    Was salaam
                    Ibrahim

                    Two men look out through the same bars; One sees the mud and One the stars

                    Comment


                      #11
                      No brother Ibrahim, although I acknowledge your sincerity, I think you are mistaken. Eemo is definitely not a Shia.

                      He may be severely misinformed about the truth of Shiism, and may not know the nasty tricks they use under "taqiyah".

                      I know you have never called him a "Shia" , but it appeared to me that you had a feeling that Eemo might be a Shia who is just practising taqiyah ("Holy Hypocrisy"). That's possible, because like anyone else, you may not have read all the messages on this forum, and seen some of his other posts.

                      I've never seen Eemo attack Islam or sound hateful against Islam. Hence, Eemo is not a Shia.

                      No offense intended bro.

                      [This message has been edited by Khoon-e-Shaheed (edited May 24, 2002).]

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Shah Jahan (a Shia) :

                        Our 'hidden' Imam will come with the true transalation of the quran and what it is really supposed to mean.

                        Which was responded by :

                        Originally posted by Ibrahim (a Muslim):


                        Ibrahim says : what?

                        1) You mean the current Arabic originals needs another translation to be understood?




                        Orignally posted by Ibrahim:
                        2) and in what language will that be in?

                        Persian

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Khoon-e-Shaheed:
                          No brother Ibrahim, although I acknowledge your sincerity, I think you are mistaken. Eemo is definitely not a Shia.
                          Ibrahim says : Salaams Brother Khoon-e-Shaheed

                          I did not think/imagine or say he was a shia in the post , so I am wondering what was it ( words or actions of mine) in my reply that led you believe , I may have thought he was a shia? I guess it was just your feeling but if you noticed something in my reply that may given this impression, I will be pleased to note them.

                          Jazak Allahu khair


                          Was salaam
                          Ibrahim

                          Comment


                            #14

                            Eemo

                            Ok, let's take your reason of logic and use it as a basis.

                            You state that Musa AS and Adaam AS both wronged PRIOR to Prophethood, therefore this proves that Prophets are infallible, because no mistakes were committed AFTER Prophethood. Fair comment.

                            Then can you confirm if the following is correct.

                            Muhammad PBUH was granted Prophethood at the age of 40.

                            Can it be possible that a mistake was made within the 40 years prior to Prophethood.

                            Don't forget, according to your reasons, the cloak and protection granted with Prophethood is not applicable for these 40 years.

                            Finally, the issue here is not if Prophets are infallible, but IMAAMS.

                            Prophets had the protection of Prophethood in order to claim infallibilty, but what did the Imaams have in order to make the same claim?

                            Please answer both points, as it would be refreshing to hear your views.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by sholay:

                              Shah Jahan
                              Here are two ayats that I posted in a previous thread from the Qur'aan which actually nullify your cliams concerning infallibility:


                              028.015 And he entered the city at a time when its people were not watching: and he found there two men fighting,- one of his own religion, and the other, of his foes. Now the man of his own religion appealed to him against his foe, and Moses struck him with his fist and made an end of him. He said: "This is a work of Evil (Satan): for he is an enemy that manifestly misleads!"

                              028.016 He prayed: "O my Lord! I have indeed wronged my soul! Do Thou then forgive me!" So (Allah) forgave him: for He is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

                              Secondly,

                              020.120 But Satan whispered evil to him: he said, "O Adam! shall I lead thee to the Tree of Eternity and to a kingdom that never decays?"

                              020.121 In the result, they both ate of the tree, and so their nakedness appeared to them: they began to sew together, for their covering, leaves from the Garden: thus did Adam disobey his Lord, and allow himself to be seduced.

                              These ayats are self explanatory.

                              Now the questions you need to answer are, did Moses commit wrong by taking the life? and did Adam commit wrong by disobeying Allah.

                              Remember, both were Prophets!

                              Or do you think an Imaam has a higher status than a Prophet?

                              Finally, the ayat you quoted in the prevoious thread concerning the family and purity, is also self explanatory.

                              Why?

                              Because Allah stipulates a condition for the purity. It did not state that they were BORN pure!!!

                              What Allah desires, so happens. He desires the Ahlul-bayt to be Pure thus they are simple. Allah does not desire and does not get. he desires and does get!

                              The sin of Adam was not earthly(if you read the whole argument I posted you should have read that aswell) as it was heavenly. Adam didnt commit a sin on earth and thus was infallable as long as he lived on earth.

                              As for Moses, if you know the actual story of the verse you will very well know by what circumstances moses killed the man(who was about to kill a non-jew) Moses did it to save the israeli and thus committed one crime while actually he did it to save a life. If he hadnt killed the man, I am sure that man whould have killed the jew. Plus Moses didnt mean to kill the man, it was an accident and an innocent action cannot be veiwed as a sin per basis of Quran.......

                              As for the stutus of the Imams, no they do not have a higher stutus than of the prophets when it comes to purity as they are all equal in that. Imamas dont bring a direct message from god. tey are the ones who carry the message after the death of the holy prophet......

                              Comment

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