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    anyone who know more about christianity.

    i had this question in my mind i asked my friend who is a christian but he didnt knew it either so i'm asking someone here.

    do christian beleive in prophets that came after Issa(A.S) jesus christ.or no the prophecy ended on him?

    #2
    I haven't done bible study for nearly 7 years, but if I recall correctly they don't believe believe that any more prophets are coming - though some believe that Hazrat Issa (SAWS) will return. An example of this is the Australian tourist who believed in 1969 that by burning the Mosque of Omar in Al-Quds he could accelerate the return of Hazrat Issa (SAWS).
    Muslims are so good at dividing that they can divide the atom. If you see two Muslims, probably they belong to 3 parties.
    Al-Ghazali

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT:
      ....Australian tourist who believed in 1969 that by burning the Mosque of Omar in Al-Quds
      tourist or terrorist ??

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by fakeer:
        do christian beleive in prophets that came after Issa(A.S) jesus christ.or no the prophecy ended on him?

        Ibrahim says salaams to all

        Dear fakeer,

        The Jews had three prophesies

        According to them , there was Elijah, there was the Messiah and the final Prophet but when the Messiah turned up they rejected his teachings as it meant altering their erroneous path. So they tried in vain to kill him.

        Hence the followers of the Messiah are today called Christians at the same time the messiah prophesied that he will send the “wonderful” ( Isaiah 9:6) counselor (will translate to Muhammad in Arabic)

        We may understand this when we read…….

        John 16:

        7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

        John 16:13. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

        14. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.

        15. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

        16. "In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me."

        Ibrahim says: This last statement confused the Christians and when Paul took the opportunity to claim he was talking on Christ’s authority some ended up believing Paul was the counselor whereas others ended up believing the Holy spirit was the counselor . Either way they did not realize it was about the Final prophet.

        Yet based on John 16:16 and the book of revelations Christians have been awaiting the return of Christ every millennium (they are not sure the exact time for this , as their calendar is in error) which is the reason why Muslims are being oppressed and made ready for the slaughter at this time frame.

        We may understand this when we read………….

        Revelations 9: 15. And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.

        16. The number of the mounted troops was two hundred million. I heard their number.


        Ibrahim says: this is the coalition army being set up in various locations to fulfill this slaughter of a third of mankind.

        Was salaam
        Ibrahim

        we get what we deserve not what we desire


        Comment


          #5
          Whoa, Ibrahim, you've got a persecution comlex. The Bible does not say that the 1/3 of mankind are the Muslims. Nowhere is that delineated and if it would break down that way I would be very surprised. The coalition army does not include the Chinese or the Russians, at this stage. The Muslims are not as put down by the West as much as by themselves. The passage about the counselor also does not state it is Mohammad. In Christian line of thought it is the Holy Spirit. Christians do not believe the tenets of Mohammad as regards the nature of Jesus, Mary and much of the Gospel message. The Jews believe in a Messiah who is not divine, but earthly, to rule over them and establish justice and peace. He would have his throne in the Temple. Christians would not be correct in accepting this.

          Comment


            #6
            no, according to christians , jessus is the last prophet. While muslim come up with verses from scriptures stating that Jessus had predicted other prohpetes. Its a long debate.

            Accoding to Bible

            Matthew 7:15-20 Signs of the End of the Age
            "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."
            Matthew 24:10-11 Signs of the End of the Age
            At that time many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
            Matthew 24:24-25 Sign of the End of the Age
            For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect -- if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time

            while according to Quran

            Al Saff 61:6
            "...Jesus, the son of Mary said: 'O children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Taurat (which came) before me and giving glad tidings of an apostle to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad' "
            (quranic translation by Yousaf ali)

            ------------------
            "Philosopher, Orator, Apostle, Legislator, Conqueror of Ideas, Restorer of Rational beliefs.... The founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by TOMASSO:
              Whoa, Ibrahim, you've got a persecution comlex.
              Ibrahim says: Hi tommaso, yes according to you, I must be, happy? .

              The Bible does not say that the 1/3 of mankind are the Muslims.
              Ibrahim says Now that is news to you but not to me, because, if it did one may have to wonder when it was written, done you think so?

              Nowhere is that delineated and if it would break down that way I would be very surprised.
              Ibrahim says: actually one needs to have insight and foresight to understand scriptures when one lacks it, they normally end up with mysteries or lack of understating . The Jews, Christian and Hindu (taken for a ride at presnt) alliance are pretty sure who this refers to , so much so they are spending considerable amount of wealth and time to stereotype the Muslims.

              Now, unless you are saying you belong to the top hierarchy of Judeao -Christian theology, I would not be surprised at your amazement.

              The coalition army does not include the Chinese or the Russians, at this stage.
              Ibrahim says: they do not need to , the trick is to work them over with this terrorist nonsense in their communities and also the current Hindu army is not flying kites but have been promised rich spoils, as such when they attack the Muslims in Pakistan under the cover of internal feud the Judea Christians have achieved their goals indirectly.
              The trigger off course is the return of Christ which was suppose to be year 2000 sharp but failed (the y2K bug became obsolete ) now I hear it is around august? 2002, as such we can see troop placements on the ready spearheaded by war on terrorism scam.

              The Muslims are not as put down by the West as much as by themselves.
              Ibrahim says: that is because their armies are controlled by the west through puppet leaders who themselves will be creating the tensions in order to keep themselves in power with the support of the coalition forces not knowing they too will be in the slaughter house when the ball gets rolling.

              The passage about the counselor also does not state it is Mohammad.
              Ibrahim says: that is because the word “wonderful (= meaning Muhammad) as given in Isaiah 9:6 must have vanished in the numerous alterations that the Bible had gone through for sound reasons.


              In Christian line of thought it is the Holy Spirit.
              Ibrahim says: this is ridiculous because the Holy spirit was present amongst many and Christ need not go away in order for it come.

              Kindly read……..


              Luke 1:15. John the Baptist filled with the Holy Spirit

              Luke 1:40…Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit

              Luke 1:67… Zacharias filled with the Holy Spirit

              John 20:22.. Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit

              Mark 3:29… Do not blaspheme the Holy Spirit

              Acts 1:8, 2:4, & 4:31…Apostle filled with Holy Spirit

              Acts 7:55.. Stephen full of Holy Spirit

              1 Timothy 3:16 Jesus vindicated by Spirit


              All the above verses indicate the presence of the Holy Spirit at various times in various people, meaning the “Holy” spirit had occupied these people and had thus strengthened them and made them more pious in nature or simply put, they (Holy spirit) had inspired these people.

              In Christian theology the Holy Spirit is also taken to include the “Spirit of truth” or the “comforter” that will be sent after Jesus was removed from earth.

              Now read:

              John 16:7… But I (Iesus) tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the counselor (comforter) will not come to you.

              Judging from the above verses one can see how wrong Christian theology can get, It is pretty clear the Holy Spirit was present at all times or at other times as such, Jesus could not have referred to the Holy Spirit as the one to come after he will be removed. (Meaning: Iesus did not have to go in order for the presence of the Holy Spirit /Holy Ghost)

              So, who is the comforter / counselor that was to be sent after Iesus?

              Let us read the Bible texts that identify the messenger to come after Iesus.

              John 16:7…he will expose the world

              John 16:11…Jesus stands condemned.

              John 16: 12.. I (Iesus) have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when the Spirit of Truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will speak only what he hears and he will tell you what is yet to come He will being glory to me by taking what is mine and making it known to you.

              Acts 3:22. For Moses said, “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from his people.

              Now let us read the earlier prophecy concerning this messenger to come.

              Deuteronomy 18: 18.. I (God) will raise up for them a prophet like you (Moses) from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If any one does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.

              Isaiah 9:6… For to us a child will be born to us a son is given and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called wonderful counselor, …….

              Isaiah 46:9 …Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God and there is no other; I am God and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: MY purpose will stand and I will do all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far of land, a man to fulfill my purpose,


              The counselor /comforter to come has a very distinctive nature, that being he will be like Moses (a human being living a normal human life). He will not know how to read even, nor is he a philosopher or a poet. He will proclaim the Truth for all of mankind. This Truth, is not of his own but what he has heard from the Divine source. His message will remain till the appointed day of Judgement. He will become a governor of his state in this world.

              In our research, we found that the only person that fits all of these nature in every detail is the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon all the Prophets and Messengers of Allah)


              Christians do not believe the tenets of Mohammad as regards the nature of Jesus, Mary and much of the Gospel message.
              Ibrahim says : Christian belief is based on its dogma and they will have nothing to do with the Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) although without the Qur’an they cannot even prove the immaculate conception that they believe in.

              The Jews believe in a Messiah who is not divine, but earthly, to rule over them and establish justice and peace. He would have his throne in the Temple. Christians would not be correct in accepting this
              Ibrahim says: What the Christian do not realize is that Christ was a Jew not a Christian , so where else will he reign accept in the temple is the current position of some Christians too. And what you are forgetting is that the temple construction had been envisaged and kept under hold by Jews and Christian coalition and the current ploy to destroy the state of Palestine is because they will have to destroy the Muslim mosques to built their temple at Jerusalem.

              Which is a requirement for them , hence all this nonsense about peace treaties with Israel and UN-American negotiations has its clear cut agenda which ties in well the bible prophesies.

              BTW this is a religion forum, so lets cut the politics.

              Hope that helps

              Regards
              Ibrahim

              every closed eye is not sleeping and every open eyes is not seeing

              Comment


                #8
                I don't know why we are stretching the question to monumental lengths. It was just a simple question ..

                fakeer, The Christians don't believe in prophets after the Messiah ... most of them, do however believe in the second coming of Jesus (as). (Just like most Muslims believe)
                I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
                - Robert McCloskey

                Comment


                  #9
                  yes fakeer;

                  Ahmed jee has the right answer.
                  Whether another prophet is predicted in christian and jewish scriptures or not, is a long debate. with no right or wrong answer, depends all on prospective.

                  ------------------
                  "Philosopher, Orator, Apostle, Legislator, Conqueror of Ideas, Restorer of Rational beliefs.... The founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"

                  [This message has been edited by secret_obsession (edited May 23, 2002).]

                  Comment


                    #10
                    To attempt to keep things straight, I will give this a serious go. Firstly, Ibrahim I do not equalte your happiness to the prospect of an all encompassing attack on Muslims. If the rest of the world ganged up on the Muslims in reality, I would need to think about purchasing a one way airline ticket. I do not fault your readiness to be on watch for any further movement against the Muslims. Ok, your point about timelines and the 1/3 quote is understood, but I am not sure that any lines will be drawn along solely religious affiliation. I can see that from your perspective it would appear that the Jews, Christians and Hindus are aligned against Muslims. In some regards this is not lost on me. The bookends to most of the countries associated with Islam are India and Israel/America. However, I notice Mexico will not engage with the US against Muslim terrorists. The major difference between the US and Mexico vis-a-vis religion is Protestant vs. Catholic. The decision for the Media to go on the warpath agianst the Church at this time is more than coincidence. The stereotyping of Muslims is being done by a narrow sector of US quarters. I know who they are and why they are at it. The US does not wish for the Indian Army to clobber Pakistan. We are actively pursuing peace in the region, spearheaded by Richard Armitage who is well qualified for the mission. It is important to be advised he has stated in Congressional testimony that there is a specter over the government by ZIONISTS. I saw it. But to take that to mean India will be given a green light remains to be seen. I bet against it.
                    The claim made about the "wonderful counselor" is not enough for me, although I can see how a Muslim point of view would see this in that light. The real arrival of the Holy Spirit to supplant Christ is written in other scripture. In the absence of the living Christ, the way was set for the Spirit as the Apostles experienced. The question you have raised about when things were written down to give an idea of what can and can't be is an interesting point. Islam could be derived from contact with Judaism and Christianity, but I am not saying this with certainty. Some passages in the Qu'ran defy this ascertation. The statement made by you regarding the Immaculate Conception only having an origin in the Qu'ran is absolutely false. Gabriel appeared before Mary to proclaim her role to her and the details thereof. It is at this time that she questions the possibility of this due to her status as a pure, unattached maiden. Gabriel explains exactly how all will occur. Christians in this day an d age realize that Jesus was Jewish and spoke Aramaic. Islam, Judaism and Christianity are religious/political in nature and where the three meet, this is the reality. It almost seems to me that God has made it so. From my point of view, the worst of the Jews are the troublemakers, the worst of the Muslims draw the sword on the others and the worst of the Christians are blind to the realities. The best of the Jews and the Muslims are held captive by the worst. The best Christians know the score. It's all down to perspective.

                    [This message has been edited by TOMASSO (edited May 23, 2002).]

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Christian scriptures talk of another Prophet, however, Most Christians would obviously do not follow that.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        IMHO, I think Christianity needs to seriously reevaluate much of what it really should encompas. It is there to draw from, but is not fully utilized. I state this sincerely. It is of great importance and scope to undertake this.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          [quote]Originally posted by TOMASSO:
                          Ibrahim says : Greetings of Peace to one and all

                          Dear Tomasso Flights to mars have been fully booked , No one way ticket available for you, and Area 51, is also full for the duration, Anyway lets stick to the religious part of your comments.


                          The claim made about the "wonderful counselor" is not enough for me, although I can see how a Muslim point of view would see this in that light.
                          Ibrahim says: I am sure it was not enough for your ancestors either, but those days they did not have the Bible to read for themselves and they can be excused but you do have the bible and you can verify the quotes I gave you Anyway let me give you the Hebrew word for wonderful , as appearing in the Hebrew bible

                          Kindly look up Song of Solomon, 5:10-16. A title of Muhammad (pbuh) was "Habeebullah" meaning The beloved of Allah'. Here is the prophesy:

                          10 "My beloved is white and ruddy.
                          11 His head is purest gold, his hair is wavy and black as a raven.
                          15 (describe his eyes, cheeks, lips, arms, body and legs )
                          16 His mouth is sweetness itself. He is ________" This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.

                          The reason I left the blank is because the word used in the original Hebrew language is stunning. The word is "Muhammadim'. "He is Muhammad", it reads. The translators decided to translate the name to 'altogether lovely' in the English versions, but anyone can go and check it in any Hebrew text.

                          Romanized Hebrew :- 5:16

                          16. xikow mamtaqiym wkulow maxamadiym zeh dowdiy wzeh ree`iy bnowt yruushaalaaim.


                          Also, this description exactly describes the appearance of Muhammad (pbuh) according to the descriptions written by his companions. Please, I urge you to think and make your own decision. This could be a coincidence, that could be a coincidence, but how many coincidences can there be?

                          In John 14:15-16, Jesus says:

                          "If you love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray to the Father and He shall give you another Comforter."

                          It is important to note that in other places, Jesus speaks of himself as a Comforter (Paraclete' from the ancient Greek language), and in this passage the same word is used, 'Paraclete'.

                          In John 16:7, we have:

                          "Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. However, if I depart, I will send him to you."

                          The apostles do not want him to go, obviously, but he says that if he does not go, the Paraclete cannot come. There is a plan, and it is part of it that he must go away.

                          In John 16:12-14, Jesus says:

                          "I have yet many things to tell you, but you cannot bear them now. Howbeit, when the Spirit of Truth is come, he will guide you into all truth; for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear shall he speak. And he will show you things to come; and he shall glorify me."

                          Muhammad (pbuh) truly glorified Jesus. In fact, without believing in Jesus, one cannot be a Muslim. Qur'an states that Jesus was one of the greatest 'anbiya (Arabic meaning 'prophet, the word Jesus used to describe himself). He was born of a miraculous birth from the chaste virgin Mary and he proved himself by many miracles. Truly, Muhammad (pbuh) was the Paraclete (or prophet) or Spirit of Truth as foretold by Jesus as one to guide into all truth.

                          The Qur'an bears clear witness to this, saying in 17:82:

                          Say [to the people] that the Spirit of Truth has come and falsehood is vanquished.

                          The real arrival of the Holy Spirit to supplant Christ is written in other scripture.
                          Ibrahim say : Do enlighten me on this, which scripture was that?

                          In the absence of the living Christ, the way was set for the Spirit as the Apostles experienced.
                          Ibrahim says : My friend, that is why there was a prophesy given by Christ who knew what will come to pass, hence he prophesied about the wonderful counselor and people have to await his coming but the disciples were lost the moment the Jews tried to kill Christ for God eclipsed that land and destroyed the temple, which means they was mayhem and utter chaos at this time frame. Which would also mean the Jewish priests will put the blame for this on to the Romans and full scale war would have broken out, which by AD 70 let to the destruction/expulsion of the Jews in that region

                          Islam could be derived from contact with Judaism and Christianity, but I am not saying this with certainty . Some passages in the Qu'ran defy this ascertation..
                          Ibrahim says: this would be erroneous because those who have the capability to compare the scriptures can identify for sure that what is found unacceptable and confusing in the Bible is clarified in the Qur’an. Further more , what was not known is revealed in the Qur’an, for instance search for the city of Iram or the exact location of Noah’s ark or the many facts that science only came to verify in resent times. (bible and our historical records will have no such details )


                          The City of Iram

                          The Qur'an mentions a city by the name of Iram (89:7). The city of Iram has been unknown to History, so unknown that even Muslim commentators, out of embarrassment or feeling apologetic for their religion, have commented on this mention of the city in the Qur'an as being perhaps figurative, that Iram was possibly a man and not a city.

                          In 1973, the excavation in Syria at the site of the ancient city of Eblus uncovered the largest collection of cuneiform writings on clay tablets ever assembled. In fact, the library discovered in Eblus contains more clay tablets that are more than four thousand years old than all the other tablets combined from all other sites.

                          Interestingly enough, you will find the details in the National Geographic of 1978 which confirms that in those tablets the city of Iram is mentioned. The people of Eblus used to do business with the people of Iram. So here in 1973, comes confirmation of the fact that, after all, there really was an ancient city by that name, wherever it was. How did it find its way into the Qur'an, we might ask?

                          Those Muslims who may have offered their comments, trying to explain away this reference that they were uncomfortable with, were outsmarted by the author of the Qur'an. They were those who would attempt to outsmart the author of the Qur'an. Primarily, their activity would involve trying to produce the evidence that the author of this book had a primitive understanding of the world around us

                          The statement made by you regarding the Immaculate Conception only having an origin in the Qu'ran is absolutely false.
                          Ibrahim says: hmm, did I make such a statement or did I say, only the Qur’an can prove such a miracle, maybe you need to read again?

                          Anyway, let me put it to you in another way, so that you will understand what I meant.

                          Assume you had a daughter and she came to you and said, Dad, I am pregnant but no one touched me and the angel said I will get pregnant , will you believe her, will the community believe her?

                          I hope you get the picture it can be a nightmare, now try and take this situation to 2000 years in the past when such a pregnancy can mean DEATH for the girl in the jewish community.

                          So you see, the bible story will be impossible to prove as such the prophesy cannot be verified or rationally accepted

                          Whereas what the Qur’an says is that this prophesy was witnessed and people MUST be able to witness it, failing which it is not a prophesy anymore.

                          Thus the only way, a women can prove that the child she gave birth to, was indeed as prophesied and from a virgin mother is when the infant can attest for her purity. That is why the child TALKED and established the TRUTH, whereas the story in the Gospel is so flimsy it is not worth mentioning.

                          Thus without the Qur’anic information on the birth of Christ the story of a virgin birth cannot be proven or accepted by any rational thinking person.

                          Christians in this day an d age realize that Jesus was Jewish and spoke Aramaic. Islam, Judaism and Christianity are religious/political in nature and where the three meet, this is the reality. It almost seems to me that God has made it so.
                          Ibrahim says : you are still not getting it my friend, it was ONLY one revealed religion that got divided because the practitioners decided to alter the teachings and rename it and tailor it to suit their desires.


                          Hope that helps
                          Regards
                          Ibrahim

                          If you want peace work for justice

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Ibrahim, you are quite learned and point out some interesting facts which undoubtably should be included in the larger Canon. Most notably the meaning of maxamadiyim should be part of the Biblical notes, at the very least. The fact that these things are supressed is not a good sign for a severe distortion does result. I do so enjoy when pieces fit together that previously were not apparent. However many of your arguments fall short of the mark in logic and truth. There may be some scholars better able to put forth the refutations that are the basis of your intent. is in regardThis s to the bit about the virgin birth. It is absolutely clear in the Gospels that what was fortold by Gabriel was the whole truth as told to Mary. The bit about her being in danger of accusation by her community is well known. The child did not speak. Your statement of the rationality of the origin of the nature of Christ's birth sans Qu'ran is irrational. What does Islaim claim is the necessity of this oddity of birth? To my knowledge, it is the only instance of such an occurance. Why the singularity?
                            My reluctance to quote scripture is that it would take me too much time to find and transpose the verses. I rely on my memory of the stories I have been taught through the years. It is sufficient. You know them as well. Do not avoid the truth I know you are aware of. It is not admirable. My comment regarding a ticket was not made in the lighthearted manner you used for humor. It was made in a more serious strain. The notion that mankind is in for some serious strife is not what I would choose to make light of. The manner in which "we" will be afflicted seems to mesh with certain weapons in the arsenals of current military inventories. The allegory from the Bible is paper thin, it would seem. I am half curious to read the Qu'ran and half hesitant for what it might reveal. It is quite a "heavy" message to digest. The Bible alone is awesome to consider. In some ways, I use this forum as learning tool, if this is not already apparent. My timorous approach is not of Muslim bravado, but it is my personality. It is not pretentious.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              However many of your arguments fall short of the mark in logic and truth.
                              Ibrahim says : Greetings of Peace to one and all

                              Dear Tomasso

                              I believe that is why people visit a forum, don’t they? ( except for the looneys who come here for fun) But just saying an argument fall short and not presenting valid reasons for them is not justified . Now If you can point to where my arguments (which are solely based on revealed texts) fall short, then we can have a mutual exchange that will benefit both of us. If not it I is like saying, hey! I don’t like it, because I say so.

                              So think about it, I know you cannot agree because you already established your boundary markers but in research and learning one must be able to remove the boundary markers and look at things rationally.

                              This s to the bit about the virgin birth. It is absolutely clear in the Gospels that what was fortold by Gabriel was the whole truth as told to Mary. The bit about her being in danger of accusation by her community is well known .The child did not speak. Your statement of the rationality of the origin of the nature of Christ's birth sans Qu'ran is irrational. What does Islaim claim is the necessity of this oddity of birth?.
                              Ibrahim says: I think I need to give you the works. I mean it is going to be lengthy, so take your time and compare the Bible with the Qur’an and for God’s sake leave your preconceived notions aside for a while and look at it rationally, no one is going to force you to accept anything and you will not be changing into a Muslim because you read something and found it rational.

                              So kindly read and verify Biblical texts with your bible, it may differ according to version of Bible< I am quoting from NIV

                              Who's birth are we talking about ?, let's get his name right first, in Greek, he is called " Iesus " spelt with a letter “ I ” which is pronounced as E, in Arabic he is called "Eesa", in the 20th century in English we have chosen to call him "Jesus". Although we are very fond of having nicknames in our current generation, Adding or Changing someone’s given name is condemned in the scriptures because it degrades that name and the meaning of the name is altered, as such if we use any other name than the given name of a person, it would be an error on our part. It is also believed that in Hebrew he would be called "Joshua", here you have to understand the letter "J" does not exist in the Hebrew language as such this would be another error.

                              I prefer to use the Arabic rendering (Eesa) as Arabic is closer to Aramaic, than Greek and by virtue of the existence of the Qur’an, his name is none other than Eesa son of Maryam please note, even Mary is a corruption of Maryam.

                              Dear Tomasso, all the people mentioned in the Bible lived in the middle east and their names were Hebrew, Aramaic or Arabic and not Greek or English.


                              Coming to the main topic, Many people do not understand the importance of this event, that is “Christ’s birth” . The fact that he was created by Allah (swt) in a unique way is the proof of Allah’s / God’s existence. The fact that Christ had to speak in order to save his mother from being killed as an unchaste women is proof of Allah’s existence . The fact that many a Christians and all Muslims believe that Mary the mother of Christ was a virgin is proof of Christ’s First miracle that he spoke in his cradle. If for instance, the baby, was not able to speak at birth, can you imagine what would have happened to Mary?

                              The law practiced at that period and time was stoning to death for those who commit adultery and indeed Mary will be punished if Christ did not speak immediately at birth. If he spoke when he was older say , 4 years old or even later no one will believe her because he could have been taught by her mother to do that, so he had to speak immediately at birth or else Mary will be stoned to death since she was not married, and no other person, nor herself can proof that she was a virgin at the time of Christ’s birth.

                              The Bible story that she was married to Joseph is erroneous and we can prove this by reading those passages.

                              In the current Bible you can read about his birth as written in the Bible by unknown authors claiming it was from so and so.

                              By the author of the Matthew's Gospel in the following, chapter 1: verses 18 to 24.

                              Matthew 1:

                              18. This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.

                              Ibrahim says: (In this verse please note , that she was pledged to be married, meaning she was not married to Joseph and also note that there was no such person called Joseph living at that period and time because the letter “J” does not exist in Hebrew and the only likely name is Yusof)

                              19. Because Joseph, her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

                              Ibrahim says: ( In this verse , you need to ask how can he divorce her when he had not yet married her and if he kept quiet in the beginning than he had to keep quiet all the time , for saying that she was a virgin with a baby without proof will create a lot of slander and accusations no matter when it is revealed without proof.)

                              20. But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

                              Ibrahim says: (According to this verse, than Joseph had a dream and based on the dream he was convinced that marry was innocent, how many of us will be willing to follow our dreams in this way ?)

                              21. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

                              Ibrahim says: ( In this verse, the name is mentioned again because there is no letter “J” in Hebrew the name becomes false, than it reveals that he will save his people from sins, meaning he will guide the Jews, it does not say he will become god to Christians or that he is the savior of mankind)

                              22. All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:

                              23. "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."

                              Ibrahim says: ( So according to these verses he would be called Immanuel and in verse 21 he will be called Jesus so this is very strange, for at those times, meaningful names were given by the parents and one person having two names without the parents name is absurd . If Jesus was his name, than the prophecy relating to Immanuel is not concerning Jesus. If Joseph had married Mary and taken her to his house than the Child born will be called Jesus son of Joseph so again another confusion)

                              24. When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife.

                              Ibrahim says: ( So this verse says that Joseph had married Mary, hence she cannot prove that she is a virgin for this event can only take place when Mary was a few months pregnant or everyone would have suspected that she is pregnant out of wedlock which would lead people to condemned her)

                              25. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

                              Ibrahim says: ( So this verse says that they stayed apart until she gave birth to Jesus, so here is the million dollar question, so how did she proof she was a virgin for the whole world to accept it?)

                              well, if we followed the Bible we can become very confused.

                              Lets look at another Gospel, According to the author of the Luke's Gospel in the following, chapter 1: verses 26 to 35.

                              Luke 1:

                              26. In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee,

                              27. to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary.

                              28. The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

                              29. Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be.

                              30. But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God.

                              31. You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus.

                              32. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,

                              33. and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

                              34. "How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"

                              35. The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

                              Ibrahim says: Now to summarizes this Gospel, it does not tell us what happened to Mary after the revelation. was she married or not as in Matthews Gospel. It tells us about Jacob, who does not exist, because there is no letter “J”. It tells us that God will give him the throne of David, who is his father in verse 32. but many Christians believe that Jesus is God’s son not David’s son, so Christians have a major problem here for God said his father is David and there is no David because they can only be a Dawood.

                              It tells us that he will be called son of most high in the same verse , meaning he will be called by others, but he is not the son of the Most high. Again in verse 35, it is mentioned he will be called son of God, so dear Tomasso, to be called lord does not mean he is lord, we have many lords in this planet but they are just common people who have been given the title lord similarly to be called son of God, does not mean that God had a son and named him Jesus and God had a wife named Mary ( Nauzubillah may God forgive us for this comments) just imagine If God had a human being for his son, than He would have many relatives too.

                              Now lets look at the other Gospel for more clues………..

                              The authors of Mark and John Gospels, have no record of his birth. So much for the Bible which is full of confusion and God said “ God is not the author of confusion but the author of peace ( meaning Islam) in 1 Corinthian 14:33


                              Everyone in our current generation had heard about the miraculous birth of Christ. being his mother was a virgin, which is also confirmed in the Qur’an. Before we go into details, we need to consider, how could a women, prove, she was a virgin, which would be accepted by mankind.?

                              Would you accept if a women, be she a daughter or a sister, came and told you , that she is pregnant, but no one ever touched her or she had no relations with anyone. even then this might be too difficult to believe, and generally today, no one will be bothered if a women gets pregnant out of wedlock, because in our current generation, adultery is the " in thing " and propagated by the mass media, actors and actress and even approved by the church. Would you honestly believe her ? , honestly speaking, we won't and we believe , most people will also agree with us. So Tomasso, would you be willing to believe your daughter or sister , if she claimed that she got pregnant without having relations with a man or by artificial insemination without anyone actually touching her? No !, No one will accept this even today.

                              At the time of Christ, situations were not like today, the Law was applicable and adultery was a serious crime , as such anyone being pregnant out of wedlock, would be condemned to death.

                              Now, Maryam (peace be upon her) was indeed pure and she did get pregnant, (out of wedlock) as a virgin, but how can she escape and how could she prove, she was a virgin, even, to her own family. If we accepted the passage written in Matthews Gospel, that Joseph had married her, than automatically the whole world would have to call the new Child (son of Joseph) and you cannot consider her a virgin no more, which is not the case.

                              Wait a minute, do not get any wise ideas yet, let us now look at what the Qur'an says: A whole surah is named after Maryam (pbuh) , imagine that, the Muslims have a whole chapter for Maryam when the Bible has none. Very strange isn’t it?

                              Surah 19:

                              Ayat 16 reads:- Relate in the Book (the story of) Maryam, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.

                              17: She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them: then We sent to her Our angel and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.

                              18: She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."

                              19: He said: "Nay I am only a messenger from thy Lord (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son."

                              20: She said: "How shall I have a son seeing that no man has touched me and I am not unchaste?"

                              21: He said: "So (it will be): thy Lord saith `That is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': it is a matter (so) decreed."

                              22: So she conceived him and she retired with him to a remote place.

                              23: And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: she cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! Would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"

                              24: But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-free): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;

                              25: "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: it will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.

                              26:"So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man say `I have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious and this day will I enter into no talk with any human being.' "

                              27: At length she brought the (babe) to her people carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Maryam! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!

                              28: "O sister of Aaron! thy father was not a man of evil nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"

                              29: But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"

                              30: He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;

                              31: "And He hath made me Blessed wheresoever I be and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;



                              Ibrahim says: The above verses are clear, but just to give you a better picture .

                              ( verse 16 reveals , She (Mary) withdrew to a place in the east. meaning she was on a pilgrimage and had left her family )

                              Chapter 19:17 to 20, tells us she isolated herself and allowed no man to see her and remained chaste. When she was in this state , an angel in the form of a man appeared to her and revealed God’s plan to her, which she doubted at first, because no man had touched her and she was a virtuous woman.

                              Chapter 19:21, the angel foretold that the baby that she will bare had been appointed by God as a sign unto men .

                              Chapter 19:22, She conceived him (Eesa) and she had to go and hide herself, Why would a women do that? Just ask any women and she will tell you that she too will do the same for this is how normal human beings behave when they have something to feel ashamed off, without any solid proof for others to believe in her..)

                              Chapter 19:23 to 26, reveals how, she had suffered, alone and fed only with dates and water, within the place she had enclosed herself. (this verses further, reveals the time of Christ’s birth, i.e. in summer and not in winter and also reveals the place was not a manger) just imagine the bible story that Joseph took his wife to his home and than let his wife to give birth in a manger , is very odd indeed.

                              Chapter 19:27 reveals, she returned to her family, after she had given birth to Eesa. To show her family and the whole world the birth of this wonderful child who had been created out of a word. Yes Tomasso, Jesus was a word, as uttered by Allah, which became a baby.

                              Chapter 19:28, reveals, the immediate reactions of her family who were saddened to see a baby without a father . [b] Normal peoples reactions, of slander, accusations and condemnations are a sure thing at that time frame not to forget this will be the same reaction even today [b] although it will be hidden and forgotten.

                              Chapter 19: 29, reveals how she saved herself from the accusations and onslaught of the public by telling them to ask the new born baby as to who is his father. This is unbelievable, how in the world can ababy talk? And answer the questions?

                              Chapter 19: 30 reveals the First miracle of Christ, ( He talked and answered all questions put forward by the public and proclaimed to the whole community the purpose of his birth and thus saving his mother from the slander and sure death)


                              So, as you can see, Maryam ( Pbuh) was established as a virgin, because Christ was able to talk as a baby, if not we will have lost, Maryam and her son Eesa to the law of the land.

                              So if the magi (Zoroastrian priests) had heard about him and came to pay tribute and seek advice from Christ, it can be clearly understood, they came ( from far and wide) because here was a baby, who had proofed God’s existence . He was a baby that had all the answers and had started preaching from birth. He was the baby that had been foretold in their scriptures . Earlier scriptures revealed that a virgin will give birth , who will be lead them on the right path, not because there was star in sky and people followed the star and was able to find Christ by following a star, try following a star in the sky and see where you will end up.

                              Indeed Eesa son of Maryam or Jesus Christ , had been created as a sign for all of mankind, why ? because man always had doubts about Allah’s / Gods existence and when a baby was created in a unique way like Christ, it reveals the power of God’s word .

                              The way that he was created also tells us that Allah alone is Supreme and that He can give life and death to creation by just saying a “word”, yes brothers and sisters when Allah/God intends a thing He just says it. He does not need to collect required materials to build it like we do. Just imagine if you had the power to say “ Let there be light and you got light, no, we can do no such thing only Allah can do this and the Bible also confirms this. Did you know that the first chapter of the Bible tells us how Allah creates and the Qur’an confirms it.

                              Hence the significance of the first miracle of Christ is indeed great for those who can understand, but most of our Christian brothers and sisters, cannot understand this because it is not mentioned in their Bible, in fact most of Christ’s Childhood is missing, the story of Christ starts only when he has reached 12 years old in the Bible and that also bits and pieces, Two of the Gospels have no record of his birth even. So indeed the Qur’an is the only complete revelation for mankind from the past and the future.


                              To my knowledge, it is the only instance of such an occurance. Why the singularity?
                              Ibrahim says : hmm.. so how many occurrences of babies without fathers have you noted in Christian theology. So you see when you have set your mind to shut out the truth you will end up making mistakes like this.


                              My reluctance to quote scripture is that it would take me too much time to find and transpose the verses. I rely on my memory of the stories I have been taught through the years. It is sufficient.
                              Ibrahim says: I guess all people do that, but when you do such things you miss out on the details which are fundamental for understanding the TRUTH, as story tellers generalize or over emphasize their tales.

                              You know them as well. Do not avoid the truth I know you are aware of. It is not admirable.
                              Ibrahim says: what gave you this notions, that I have been trying to hide something, haven’t you seen me quote pages and pages of texts without snipping out the details? If you had asked I will have provide you with it earlier. Anyway, now you have them in FULL as quoted above.

                              The manner in which "we" will be afflicted seems to mesh with certain weapons in the arsenals of current military inventories.
                              Ibrahim says Yes! that is why church groups have heavy investments in munitions industries. Because the bible details what may be used to kill mankind and how to apply sanctions to starve the people to submit ( which is abused by the west at this time frame)

                              I am half curious to read the Qu'ran and half hesitant for what it might reveal. It is quite a "heavy" message to digest.
                              Ibrahim says: why the fear when knowledge can only enlighten? , you know there was a time when I dare not touch a bible but these day I quote them left, right and center ( some times people wonder if I am Christian or Muslim) , let alone touch a Hindu scripture with all sorts of idols images But as you grow you learn, that the more you know the better you can comprehend the Creator who had given you life and has not left you to wander or wonder but had been guiding you all the time.

                              Hope that helps

                              Regards
                              Ibrahim

                              sharpen your mind not your blade and be ready for the hour

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