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**jaanaan** · May 10, 2002, 04:36 AM

you know what brother, people are just crazy. while i do think that hadiths are good sometimes, i think many a times a large portioon of them is misleading. and there is no guarantee that they are right either..i agree with you.. but many people will come up with their ..you know...ideas..and ask you this stupid question. "ok, if quran has everything, where is it written that namaz should br done certain way..etc".

**Ibrahim** · May 10, 2002, 06:04 AM

Originally posted by NeSCio: And I'm not willing to accept anything else unless someone can give me sufficient answers to the following 2 questions:

Ibrahim says: salaams to all

Dear NeSCio,

may Allah (swt) forgive me for answering you since your willingness to emulate the prophet will depend on the answers as you have so boldly claimed.

And I assure you no answers can satisfy those who have established preset boundary markers or to put it an another way, no answers is required for a believer and all answers will be rejected by an unbeliever .

1. If Hadith were to have such an important role in our lives (as a role-model), why didn't the Holy Prophet during His life say to His companions to write down everything what He does?

Ibrahim says: this is actually simple to understand and would be due to the Prophet trying to emulate the Creators way of thinking. Man have a tendency to emulate the ones they love as such the Prophet having great Love for his Creator will naturally be inclined to understand and follow the Creator�s ways.

This can be proven for yourself by asking any unbeliever and he/she may have idolized someone in their lives whom they try to imitate in behaviors , style or speech.

Thus When Allah (swt) revealed.

2: 256 Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error; whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

Ibrahim says: Surely anyone wanting to emulate such love and mercy for his fellow beings will not be compiling a code of conduct that the Creator himself had not forced it upon His creations.

On the other hand those that witness the Prophets way of life will indeed emulate him in the hope of pleasing their Creator who had also conveyed the following repeatedly in various ways.

33: 6 The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves and his wives are their mothers. Blood-relations among each other have closer personal ties in the Decree of Allah than (the Brotherhood of) Believers and Muhajirs: nevertheless do ye what is just to your closest friends: such is the writing in the Decree (of Allah).

33: 21 Ye have indeed in the Apostle of Allah a beautiful pattern of (conduct) for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day and who engages much in the praise of Allah

33: 36 It is not fitting for a Believer man or woman when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Apostle to have any option about their decision: if anyone disobeys Allah and His Apostle he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.

Ibrahim says : If this was not clear enough, Allah (swt) made it even more Clearer, when He conveyed thus:

24: 51 The answer of the Believers when summoned to Allah and His Apostle in order that He may judge between them is no other than this: they say "We hear and we obey": it is such as these that will attain felicity.

52 It is such as obey Allah and His Apostle and fear Allah and do right that will win (in the end).

53 They swear their strongest oaths by Allah that if only thou wouldst command them they would leave (their homes). Say: "Swear ye not; obedience is (more) reasonable: verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do."

53 Say: "Obey Allah and obey the Apostle: but if ye turn away he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him ye shall be on right guidance. The Apostle's duty is only to preach the clear (Message)."

Ibrahim says: Thus the Prophet (pbuh) NEVER failed in preaching what was revealed to him, nor did he fail in guiding his companions as to what was the best behavior that would be pleasing to Allah (swt) .

It was not a requirement for the Prophet to detail what to do and what not to do in writing, (which had he done so, would mean that there will be no other way except that way, which MUST BE DONE, which Allah (swt) Himself had not done), thus he devoted his whole prophet hood in showing the correct way to all that came close to him.

This is what the companions observed and later put into writing , as such knowledge started to decline and more people were in search of what was taught and practiced by the Prophet.

Just as the Qur�an can only be compiled as Allah (swt) willed after the completion of its revelations to the Prophet ( although it was written down as and when revealed ) , the prophetic teachings will also end up being compiled as Allah (swt) willed well after the teachings/life style starts to decline in practice or quality.

What I am saying is that when the Prophet is around they will be no need for anyone to write down what he said or did since all are witnessing them for themselves and if any doubts arose, they will just seek the audience of the Prophet or his close consorts and have their doubts cleared.

Why did it take more than 200 years before Bukhari, Muslim etc came up with the idea to assemble everything.

Ibrahim says This is a fallacy, they indeed existed writings of hadiths prior to the current well known compilers. What may have taken place is that much of those writings could have been destroyed when Islamic establishments/trustees for those works and powers started to decline in the onslaught of the opposition.

The opposition needed to destroy Islamic teachings as such, much of the earlier works would have perished in their hands, yet some may still exist and may come to light in some future date and time , If Allah (swt) willed. The Christians themselves have a large collection of Islamic works in their Vatican archives which they would have acquired when they ransacked Spain just as Hindus too hold certain works that are in their archives

Anyway, it would be probable to believe that Bukhari and Muslim etc would have had excess to these works and would have derived many sayings from them too, which we are no fortunate to have through them.

If Hadith were so important why didn't the Holy Prophet say to His Companions: "listen, everything what I do is so important. you must write down everything I do, so that later generations can profit from this" He say this! WHY?????

Ibrahim says; because Allah (swt) had already said that ( as quoted above) and because the Prophet had no desire to impose what Allah (swt) had not imposed. On the other hand Allah {swt} had made it clear by prophesying from the past that Mohamed (pbuh) is His chosen messenger for the final message and perfection of His religion to mankind .

According to me the reasons for this is that the Qur'an in itself is complete and it doesn't need any additional explanation!

Ibrahim says: that would be erroneous in the sense that Allah (swt) can and could have dropped the Qur�an from the heaven or even write the entire Qur�an in the sky for us to read and follow without having any doubts. Only problem is that when such things are done it would amount to compulsion and Allah(swt) as trails for mankind had given us free will and removed any form of compulsion for us.

Instead the Creator chose man as His representatives on earth and let their judgment and ways be the acceptable norms that Allah (swt) accepted from mankind due to mankind�s own limitations and behaviors.

And amongst mankind , HE chose the perfect in character to reveal the final testament (Qur�an) and we the generations coming after this perfect person ( that Allah (swt) accepted) are to emulate him as best as we could and this can only be done by studying what are his ways, which cannot be revealed in the Qur�an in full but can be read through the eyes and ears of those that were present amongst him. ( which is what we now have amongst us as the hadiths)

If you ask people why they follow Hadith they say that it gives you additional information on how to live; and by following the Hadith you can gain some "extra sawaab":

Ibrahim says: this will depend on who you ask, for me, I will say by trying to understand the Prophet (pbuh) and the people who lived in the past with him, I am able to learn the trials and tribulations that they had to endure and comparing it with what I am going through, I may now learn the wisdom that they had and used in their trails and tribulations to please my Creator .

Second when Allah (swt) advised Ye have indeed in the Apostle of Allah a beautiful pattern of (conduct) for anyone whose hope is in Allah

Those who love Allah (swt) and the Prophet will have little excuse for not finding out what was that pattern and how it can be emulated as best as possible.

but if one says this, he implicitly says that the Qur'an isn't complete; that the Qur'an needs extra explanation!

Ibrahim says: what one says about Islam has little affect on Islam. Islam is the religion given by Allah (swt) not just to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) but from the beginning to all prophets , The Qur�an is just one chapter of events , its earlier chapters were given to Prophets before Prophet Muhammad ( peace be upon them all)

Because the Qur'an is a divine book, which is complete in itself, it doesn't need any Hadith to give more insight on it's subjects.

Ibrahim says ; this argument is flawed, since all you need to do is find out where in the Qur�an Allah (swt) enjoined circumcision for Muslims and if it is not mentioned therein why are Muslims doing it? and why all Prophets practiced it? Just look at those who are trying to market this argument in this forum, they cannot even explain how to pray in simple terms, when it is obligatory to pray daily and know how to do it as taught to the prophet and as practiced by his followers for 1423 years.

Hope that helps, Insha Allah.

Allah (swt) knows best

Was salaam
Ibrahim

there is no poverty worse than ignorance and no wealth more useful than reason

**PakistaniAbroad** · May 10, 2002, 07:42 AM

Ibrahim says ; this argument is flawed, since all you need to do is find out where in the Qur�an Allah (swt) enjoined circumcision for Muslims and if it is not mentioned therein why are Muslims doing it?and why all Prophets practiced it?

hmmm did someone inspect previous prophets to find that out??? We only get this information from corrupted earlier scriptures which cannot be trusted.

Current acts should reconcile with Qur'anic teachings not the other way around. If you do not find a practice in the Qur'an it doesn't null and void the Qur'an or render it incomplete. Rather it points out that the current practice has no basis from the Qur'anic point of view and is just another practice carried over from prevailing teachings.

Just look at those who are trying to market this argument in this forum, they cannot even explain how to pray in simple terms, when it is obligatory to pray daily and know how to do it as taught to the prophet and as practiced by his followers for 1423 years.

If you are referring to my post, I"m managing very well thank you very much. The prayer is defined and is surprisingly simple. It may not be the way you'd like it to be, but then again, i'm not imposing or reconciling the message in the qur'an with current practices. That's tantamount to looking for Easter Bunnies and Christmas Trees in the Bible.

**Alpha1** · May 10, 2002, 07:48 AM

PA

Your post on salat is as clear as mud.

**clubber lang** · May 10, 2002, 08:29 AM

Originally posted by NeSCio:
Salaam everyone,
in analogy to ahmadjee who started a thread about "why he follows hadith/sunnah", I'm starting this thread about why "I don't follow Hadith so strictly".

As I already mentioned in that other thread, I see Hadith as nothing more than History writing, just like in any other book. And I'm not willing to accept anything else unless someone can give me sufficient answers to the following 2 questions:

1. If Hadith were to have such an important role in our lives (as a role-model), why didn't the Holy Prophet during His life say to His companions to write down everything what He does? Why did it take more than 200 years before Bukhari, Muslim etc came up with the idea to assemble everything. If Hadith were so important why didn't the Holy Prophet say to His Companions: "listen, everything what I do is so important. you must write down everything I do, so that later generations can profit from this" He say this! WHY?????
According to me the reasons for this is that the Qur'an in itself is complete and it doesn't need any additional explanation!

and this brings me to the 2nd point:
If you ask people why they follow Hadith they say that it gives you additional information on how to live; and by following the Hadith you can gain some "extra sawaab": but if one says this, he implicitly says that the Qur'an isn't complete; that the Qur'an needs extra explanation! But as we all know, the Qur'an is complete as can be, and it needs NO further explanation. everything you want to or ought to know is in the Qur'na!!!! and by implying that the Qur'an needs some "sequel" in the form of Hadith or some kind of explanation, because the Qur'an doesn't give enough info on certain subjects is in my opinion a sin! Because the Qur'an is a divine book, which is complete in itself, it doesn't need any Hadith to give more insight on it's subjects.

as said already, unless someone can give me clear answers to these two points I'm not willing to accept that the Hadith is anything more that merely HISTORY WRITING, just like any other history book I read on school! After all it has been compiled the same way history books are compiled: by asking people what they know and what they heard, by visitng certain places to find out what happened, by examining certain events etc.

Bro a number of things to consider

1) We as muslims dont use our mind to rationalise the laws of Allah (swt)

2) The hadiths are part of the sunnah, no 1 can deny it, in the quran it says pray but it doesnt say how to pray, we look to the sunnah which has the hadiths in it and tells us how to perform the namaz,the quran is 1st and the sunnah has the details explaining the situation

3) The prophet (saw) was perfect in all his actions,which means that it was revealtion!...so therefore the hadiths tell us the seerah of prophet(saw) therfore meaning that they are a soucre of evidence.

4) The reason why the hadiths were written 200 yrs later was because the sahaba's who use to memorise were gettin martyed on the battlefield and also because the hypcrites were fabricated hadiths, so the hadiths in essence existed at the time of prophet(saw) and still exist 2day

5) The following point what are u tryin to imply???

"According to me the reasons for this is that the Qur'an in itself is complete and it doesn't need any additional explanation"

Bro of course the quran is complete but in many situations u hav to go the sunnah to get the exact details ( i already give u example abt namaz)

and finally the 100% correct source of legisaltion are

1)Quran
2)Sunnah (i.e the hadiths tell us the action and rules)
3)Ijma(consenous) of the entire sahaba
4)Qiyas

[This message has been edited by clubber lang (edited May 10, 2002).]

**sholay** · May 10, 2002, 09:50 AM

I follow the Sunnah of the Prophet PBUH and accept authentic A'Hadeeth which is NOT contradictory to the Qur'aan, by the following ayat:

YUSUFALI: But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

PICKTHAL: But nay, by thy Lord, they will not believe (in truth) until they make thee judge of what is in dispute between them and find within themselves no dislike of that which thou decidest, and submit with full submission.

SHAKIR: But no! by your Lord! they do not believe (in reality) until they make you a judge of that which has become a matter of disagreement among them, and then do not find any straitness in their hearts as to what you have decided and submit with entire submission.

Allah has sworn on Himself that one cannot be a Believer until they accept Muhammad PBUH as their judge!!

What other oath can one use!!!

It is only via the A'Hadeeths that we grasp the lifestyle and judgements of the Prophet PBUH in line with the Qur'aan.

Ponder, ponder and ponder again!

**PakistaniAbroad** · May 10, 2002, 12:04 PM

sholay bro,

It's a very common habit of all sectarians to selectively pluck verses from the Qur'an and hang them as banners of unconditional obedience to Bukahri's book.

You'd have done us all a favour if you'd posted the verse and surah number so the context could be established.

Now read and learn the correct context of the verse:

[an-Nisa' 4:60] Have you not seen those who assert that they believe in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before you? They desire to summon one another to the judgment (yatahakamu) of the Shaitan, though they were commanded to deny him, and the Shaitan desires to lead them astray into a remote error.

PakistaniAbroad: This is where the source of the dispute lies. Those who disbelieve wishing to follow judgement of Shaitans rather than what has been revealed by Allah to the Prophet and before him

[an-Nisa' 4:61] And when it is said to them: Come to what Allah has revealed and to the Apostle, you will see the hypocrites turning away from you with (utter) aversion.

PakistaniAbroad: Once again Allah tells us what's the dispute about. It's unbelievers not accepting what Allah has revealed, which is all earlier scriptures and to the Apostle which is The Qur'an.

[an-Nisa' 4:62] But how will it be when misfortune befalls them on account of what their hands have sent before? Then they will come to you swearing by Allah: We did not desire (anything) but good and concord.

[an-Nisa' 4:63] Those men,- God knows what is in their hearts; so keep clear of them, but admonish them, and speak to them a word to reach their very souls. (unfusihim)

PakistaniAbroad: so the Prophet was supposed to be the saviour for them in trying to direct them to what is right and speaking and reaching their souls to convince them to judge by what Allah had revealed.

[an-Nisa' 4:64] And We did not send any apostle but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves (zalamu anfusahum), come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Apostle had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.

Now let's see what 4:65 the quoted verse actually says:

[an-Nisa' 4:65]

fala va rabbika = so no and by your Lord

la yuminoona hatta = they do not believe until

Now putting the correct translation in for the verse we get:

[an-Nisa' 4:65] So no and by your Lord! they do not believe until they appoint you to judge (yuhakkimuka) of that which has become a matter of disagreement among them, and then do not find any straitness in their hearts as to what you have decided and submit with entire submission.

PakistaniAbroad: Thus becomes clear the predicament of the disbelievers who wished judgement in their matters from Shaitan but were told in no uncertain terms that they will be believers only if they received judgement from what was revealed by Allah before AND on the Prophet.

[an-Nisa' 4:105] Surely We have revealed the Book to you with the truth that you may judge between people by means of that which Allah has taught you; and be not an advocate on behalf of the treacherous.

[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited May 10, 2002).]

**doctornaveeed** · May 10, 2002, 02:26 PM

wats the quarell .
allah says whoever does an atom of good will be rewarded and vice versa.dont follow the hadith if u dont want to.ask urself if u follow quran as it shud be followed.problem solved.we will all be in our own separate graves.aint that so?

**ahmadjee** · May 10, 2002, 02:55 PM

NeSCio,

I will try to answer your questions to the best of my knowledge.

# 1: There were people who used to write down the traditions of the Holy prophet (saw). If I am not mistaken, Hazrat Abu Hurira (ra) is one of them. Its an interesting query & I will have to do a little more investigation before making any more claims.

# 2: Every book needs an explanation. The same literature is understood differently by different people based on their knowledge. For example, if a close friend of Iqbal, who has understanding of the Urdu poetry, explains a few verses of his poems, then by all means his explanation will be weigh higher than anyone else's.

Quran was revealed to the Holy Prophet (saw) by Allah & Muslims believe the Holy Prophet (saw) to be the most knowledgeable, most spiritual human being that ever existed. So, why not understand (not abrogate, or over ride) the Quran on whom it was revealed & who due to his closeness to God knows the best of the meanings of the Holy book?

Now, the question is, if the explanation that we have in the books, is actually his or someone fabricated it later on.

**sholay** · May 10, 2002, 04:43 PM

PA

You must be obssessed with the word Bukhari, as you keep mentioning his name at every opportunity!

But one thing is for sure, he was a much more learned scholar than you or I may ever be.

Anyway, getting back to the point.

In the discourse of ayats 60-68, the Believers are warned against the Hypocrites among them (can u relate), who claim to profess the Faith. Yet all their activities belied it. They avoided the Prophet PBUH and went to the detractors of Islam for getting their disputes settled. They swore that they followed the Prophet PBUH but actually appeased the enemies of Islam. Allah instructed the Prophet PBUH to keep clear of them, but to warn them and speak to them for their own good in appealing terms, and not to take them for the Believers until they made him a judge in their affairs and found no vexation in their hearts over what he decided. If they were asked to make any sacrifices, they would have surely refused to do so.

In contrast to the sad plight of the Hypocrites, the honour and high rank of those who obey Allah and His Messenger are explained in ayats 69-70!

The same can be said for some of the Muslims of today!!

Classic examples are on this Forum.

They profess in following the Prophet PBUH, but would rather accept man made Kuffar legal rulings rather than the Prophets PBUH rulings and traditions!!

Furthermore, just like you believe that people like me quote Qur'aanic ayats out of context in order to justify our claims. We also believe that you grossly misquote and misinterperate Qur'aanic ayats when your back is against the wall!!

I'm sure you know what I mean!!

Finally, The Submitters also reject the Sunnah of Prophet Mohammed (saws)- not part of it, but the whole of it. For the Submitters, the Sunnah is not a source of Islam. The problems this presents are overwhelming, for by doing so the Submitters have effectively destroyed their ability to perform:

Salaat (obligatory prayers), the second pillar of Islam

Zakat (obligatory tax), the third pillar of Islam

Sawm (fasting), the fourth pillar of Islam

Hajj (pilgrimage), the fifth pillar of Islam

With four out of the five pillars of Islam removed, the Submitters have little to back their claim to being "Muslim".

The reason why I mention the Submitters is because they are the only sect that reject A'Hadeeth!!!!

**Ibrahim** · May 10, 2002, 07:39 PM

[quote]Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:

hmmm did someone inspect previous prophets to find that out??? We only get this information from corrupted earlier scriptures which cannot be trusted.

Ibrahim says: Salaams to all.

O Lord! How man end up blinding themselves when they have set their agenda to preach according to their whims and fancies.
Hello PA, what use is it that you talk about the Qur�an, when you have not understood what it conveys in essence??

Let me make this simple for you!

2: 15 Allah will throw back their mockery on them and give them rope in their trespasses; so they will wander like blind ones (to and fro).

16 These are they who have bartered guidance for error: but their traffic is profitless and they have lost true direction.

17 Their similitude is that of a man who kindled a fire; when it lighted all around him Allah took away their light and left them in utter darkness so they could not see.

18 Deaf dumb and blind they will not return (to the path).

Ibrahim says: Thus IMHO you have been given a lot of rope to hang yourself, which you have done so in many instances, the most implicating one being, Muslim Kalima is wrong, http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/003952-2.html in which you claimed that it should be what prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) had said in his reply to Allah (swt), "aslima li rabbil aalameen" and not what Muslims have been using for 1423 years, yet today , you have forgotten that and want to argue we must stick to what was revealed to prophet Muhammad (pbuh) only.

Thus It is obvious you are here to confuse the ignorant . Of whom you are hoping to convince at least one to follow your ways as you had implied in earlier exchanges.
Now, Allah (swt) had conveyed to mankind the following in the Final testament

2: 130 And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: and he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the righteous.

2: 136 Say ye: "We believe in Allah and the revelation given to us and to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord we make no difference between one and another of them and we bow to Allah (in Islam)."

2: 140 Or do ye say that Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know better than Allah? Ah! who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from Allah? But Allah is not unmindful of what ye do!

16: 123 So We have taught thee( Mohammed) the inspired (message) "Follow the ways of Abraham the true in faith and he joined not gods with Allah."

Ibrahim says: hence the message and laws and regulations as practiced by the Prophets were similar and this is confirmed by

Read!

22: 78 And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive (with sincerity and under discipline): He has chosen you and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims both before and in this (Revelation); that the Apostle may be a witness for you and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer give regular Charity and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector the Best to protect and the Best to help!

Read!

42: 13 The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah--the which We have sent by inspiration to thee--and that which We enjoined on Abraham Moses and Jesus: Namely that ye should remain steadfast in Religion and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).

Ibrahim says: Since those who call themselves Muslims got their very name from Prophet Ibrahim(pbuh) thus what had been approved for him is what the Prophets (peace be upon them all) had practiced from ancient times till the Final Prophet (pbuh)

In order to establish the truth behind this we may look at the Torah( albeit in its altered form) , which reveals thus

Genesis 17:

8. The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."

9. Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come.

10. This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.

11. You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.

12. For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner--those who are not your offspring.

13. Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.

14. Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

snipped.

23. On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him.

24. Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised,

25. and his son Ishmael was thirteen;

Ibrahim says: Now having known this, one may want to find out what was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) concerning circumcision or as to why he too practiced it.

Thus we read��..

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 8.313 Narrated by Abu Huraira

Allah's Apostle said "The Prophet Abraham circumcised himself after he had passed the age of eighty years and he circumcised himself with an adze."
Narrated Said bin Jubair: Ibn 'Abbas was asked, "How old were you when the Prophet died?" He replied. "At that time I had been circumcised." At that time, people did not circumcise the boys till they attained the age of puberty. Sa'id bin Jubair said, "Ibn 'Abbas said, 'When the Prophet died, I had already been circumcised.' "

Ibrahim says: thus, the Prophets had indeed followed what had revealed to them and what is mentioned in the torah concerning circumcision is accurate as confirmed by prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

Current acts should reconcile with Qur'anic teachings not the other way around.

Ibrahim says: that is because you are in error , current acts has to reconcile with what Allah (swt) and his appointed messenger practiced not with your whims and fancies.

If you do not find a practice in the Qur'an it doesn't null and void the Qur'an or render it incomplete.

Ibrahim says can you tell us where anyone made such a comment?

Rather it points out that the current practice has no basis from the Qur'anic point of view and is just another practice carried over from prevailing teachings.

Ibrahim says: You mean prevailing teachings of the Prophets were not in line with what Allah (swt) approved or are you going to claim you are a reincarnation of the Prophet? maybe you want to steal the messiah hood from the ahmedis?

If you are referring to my post, I"m managing very well thank you very much.

Ibrahim says: Really! I was under the impression you were making a mockery of yourself, which you are so well at doing .

The prayer is defined and is surprisingly simple.

Ibrahim says; when that is the case, why are you fumbling? , just tell us, it is this and this, because this and this was the command from Allah (swt) . why so may continuations with no end in sight? You mean a man must know the entire Qur�an in order to Pray to Allah (swt).

It may not be the way you'd like it to be,

Ibrahim says: Hello! After so many days, your simple prayer as conveyed by Allah (swt) in the Qur�an , that was discovered by you after 1423 years of Muslims knowing and practicing it, has yet to materialize, is there a problem or has its simplicity been too much for you to manage?

Was salaam
Ibrahim

If you are always trying to get ahead of the other person, then that person is in control of you.

**sherrybaba** · May 10, 2002, 09:53 PM

Well rejecting a hadith doesnt necessarily means that you are rejecting Holy Prophet(SAWS)words but instead questioning the authecity of the hadiths, come to think of it, most of the hadiths were compiled like so many years after Prophet's death so you have to be careful with narrators and the long list of chains..

I came accross some ppl claimed hadiths and Quran to be equivalent, which I think is ridiculous you can never compare Holy Book Quran with hadiths. Hadiths arent suppose to testify for Quran infact it should be the other way..

[This message has been edited by sherrybaba (edited May 10, 2002).]

**PakistaniAbroad** · May 10, 2002, 10:56 PM

Originally posted by sholay:
[B]We also believe that you grossly misquote and misinterperate Qur'aanic ayats when your back is against the wall!!

You are always welcome to point it out. Clarifications will always be provided. If you're referring to u're queries in the other thread, I haven't finished posting and will inshallah try to address all your concerns in due time. A little patience is required, unlike some on this forum I try not to copy paste.

The problems this presents are overwhelming, for by doing so the Submitters have effectively destroyed their ability to perform:

Salaat (obligatory prayers), the second pillar of Islam

Untrue, as will be evident at the completion of the thread.

Zakat (obligatory tax), the third pillar of Islam

Incorrect. You will find what is enjoined to spend IN the Qur'an.

Sawm (fasting), the fourth pillar of Islam

Incorrect again. the month and timings are present in the Qur'an. If one chooses to ignore them and follow other books it's their choice.

Hajj (pilgrimage), the fifth pillar of Islam

Another ignorant statement.. if the Qur'an doesn't give you rituals like "stoning the shaitan" it's because it's a pagan practice which your hadiths gladly embrace.

**ammarr** · May 10, 2002, 11:13 PM

What exactly is the argument here?
Most of you make a big fuss about how Quran is the only thing to be followed and no help from Hadith is needed. Let me ask you this:

Do you guys really consider yourself "Ehl" enough to understand the Quran?
A chemistry book needs a teacher, and you think you can understand the Quran just like that?
People have spent their lives understanding religion.. and those of us who cant do that have to understand their explanations and hence follow a lesser version of Islam.

Tell me this: Doesn't it say in the Quran that The Jinn and the Insaan were made to worship? Then what're you doing on the net flirting and opening threads after threads of crap?(No fingers pointed) All of you self-acclaimed scholars dont have much to point fingers against people who have spent their lives in worship and understanding the Quran.

A lot of you say that this is all Mullah thinking, I disagree.. have you guys ever been with these people? I have had the fortune of being brought up with some of these people who follow the Quran and the Sunnah strictly and they're amazing people with rock solid beliefs and their actions speak of righteousness.

All the time you were on the net, these people were begging Allah(SWT) to show them the right path.. studying history and figuring out what Islam really is. And suddenly a small group arises and says that it can just pick up the Quran and make all results from it.. not very amusing.

PA, you make a thing about how Bukhari only had *this* much time to collect hadith huh? Now tell me this.. how old are you? How much of your age has been spent in research? how much of it in worship? How much of it on the net? What have you given Islam to be dishing out at Imam Bukhari? I'm not making a judgement regarding you.. but I'd like you to think if you're really good enough to challenge the views of someone who's spent their life in the quest of knowledge.

Tell you what.. isn't it your duty to atleast do 'tableegh'? Now do me a favor.. take each and every single Bukhari or Muslim Hadith out there and prove it wrong to me. Afterall it is YOUR job to guide a mis-guided majority.. the majority wont come to you asking for guidance..

So Nescio and PA, be like an anti-bukhari.. prove to me that Bukhari and Muslim are fake. Prove that each and every one of those Ahadith are wrong.

Really dont have much against you guys, we can easily co-exist. But I'd like to learn about how you guys have elevated your position enough to consider Quran your sole guidance.

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Why I chose not to follow Hadith that strictly...

Why I chose not to follow Hadith that strictly...

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