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    RE: Ms. Pakistani (sects in Islam)

    Lengthy but something worth reading.
    Qureshi Girl, sorry for putting this on a new thread.

    In the name of Allah, the most Gracious, the most Merciful
    • It is commonly said that religions are more a cause of division than of unity, for mankind. It would therefore follow that if all religions are from One God, then surely He is to blame for the sorry state of our world? However, unsurprisingly, quite the opposite is true. God has always been a source of unity for man, and it is man that has repeatedly chosen to break away from this unity. The teachings of God has always provided a perfect guidance for a just and peaceful existence, when people estrange themselves from those teachings, the result is that they are no longer practised, and that is when true faith leaves the hearts of people. It is through God's Mercy that He sends down reformers to re-establish the true faith in the earth, these reformers are invariably faced with opposition and enmity from those around them. History abounds with such examples. The Holy Prophet Muhammad (SA) among many of his prophesies has mentioned in one Hadith, a prophecy which many of us has seen fulfilled in our lifetime. Nearly 1400 years ago, our beloved Master prophesied:
      Abdullah bin Amarra relates that the Holy Prophet (SA) said [i]‘Surely things will happen to my people as happened earlier to Israelites, they will resemble each other like one shoe in a pair resembles the other to the extent that if anyone among the Israelites has openly committed adultery to his mother there will be some who will do this in my Ummah as well, verily the Israelites were divided into 72 sects but my people will be divided into 73 sects, all of them will be in the fire except one.' The companions asked. 'Who are they O Messenger of Allah,' Holy Prophet (pbuh) said. `They are those who will be like me and my companions.’ (Tirmidhi - Kitabul Eeman)
      In this Hadith there are quite a few things to be noted. Firstly, it mentions the resemblance of the Muslim Ummah with the Israelites (i.e. Jews). In another Hadith (Abu Daud - Vol.2, pg.241) this resemblance is mentioned in the words that as among the Jews a prophet was raised in every century, among Muslims a reformer/Mujaddid will be raised and as among the Jews at the end of the chain of prophets a Messiah was raised a Messiah will be raised among the Muslims.

      Among Jews there were 12 tribes each divided into six sects making a total of 72 sects at the time when the Messiah Jesus (as) was sent to the Israelites. After the appearance of the Messiah among Jewish people the list of sects increased considerably. So while talking about 73 divisions among Muslims and taking into account the resemblance of the Muslim Ummah to the Jewish people mentioned in both of the above traditions, it appears that these two Ahadith relate to the time of the Messiah.


    Authenticity of the Hadith
    • Other than Tirmidhi & Abu Daud, Ibn-e-Maja (Vol.1, pg.163) gives three independent narration of the same Hadith. Talking about the authenticity of this Hadith, Abu Mansur Abd al-Kahir ibn-Tahir Al-Baghdadi says there are many independent testimonies for the tradition dealing with the division of the community. A number of following companions have handed it down as coming from the Prophet (pbuh): Anas ibn-Malik, Abu-Hurairah, Abu-l-Darda, Jabir, Abu-Sa'id al-Khidri, Ubai ibn-Ka'b, Abd-Allah ibn-Amr ibn-al-'As, abu-Imamah, Wathilah ibn-al-Aska' and others. It is also handed down that the pious Caliphs mentioned that the community would be divided after them, that one sect only would save itself, and the rest of them would be given to error in this world, and to destruction in the next.


    ::::::::::::: Jewish Sects at the time of Jesus Christ :::::::::::::
    • 01. Pharisees
      02. Sadducees
      03. Essenes/Ossenes
      04. Party of Covanent
      05. Karaites
      06. Zealots
      07. Therapeutae
      08. Kabbalah
      09. Qumranites
      10. Hasmoneans
      11. Amme ha'arez
      12. Yahwists
      13. Rechabites
      14. Nazerites
      15. Hellenists (Stephen)
      16. Maccabees
      17. Hasideans
      18. Eleazarites
      19. Hyrcanusites
      20. Epicureans
      21. Stoics
      22. Pythagoreans
      23. Zadokites
      24. Enochites
      25. Zakaites
      26. Beth Hillel
      27. Beth Shammai
      28. Followers of Bar Cochba
      29. Habakkukites
      30. Ebionites
      31. Levites
      32. Ezekielites
      33. Herodians
      34. Scribes (Soferims)
      35. Galileans
      36. Hemerobaaptists
      37. Baptists
      38. Masbothei
      39. Genistae
      40. Meristae
      41. Hellenians (Hellene)
      42. Nasaraioi
      43. Introversionists
      44. Alexanderian Jews
      45. Philos
      46. Hezekiah
      47. Josiah
      48. Canaanites
      49. Samaritans
      50. Aaronides
      51. Gnostic Jews of Qumran
      52. Boethusians
      53. Conversionists
      54. Josianic Movement
      55. Babylonian Jews
      56. Elephantinites
      57. Oniasites
      58. Judeans
      59. Ein Fashka
      60. Antiochusians
      61. Selecudians
      62. Sicarii
      63. Zedekiahs
      64. Followers of Simon Bar Giora
      65. Followers of John of Giscala
      66. Followers of Simon Bar Kosiba
      67. Patriarchate
      68. Apocalypticians
      69. Shabbatai - Zevi Movement
      70. Adventists
      71. Epiphanesians
      72. Palestanian Jews


      * Jewish Sects at the time of Jesus by Marcel Simon, translated into English by James H. Farley.
      * Jewish Sectarianism in Second Temple Times by Lawrence H. Schiffman, in Great Schisms in Jewish History
      * A Sectarian Analysis of the Damascus Document by John W. Martens, in Essays in the Social Scientific Study of Judaism and Jewish Society, edited by Simcha Fishbane, Jack N. Lightstone and Victor Levin.


    ::::::::::::: Resemblance of the 72 to Jews in their Beliefs ::::::::::::
    • According to the Hadith mentioned in the beginning, other than being 72 in number, this set will resemble Jews in their behavior as one shoe in a pair resembles the other.

      Jews of that time believed that a previous Israelite prophet Elijah (Ilyas, AS) had ascended to heaven in his chariot of fire and before the advent of the Messiah, he will descend from heavens in his chariot and prepare the grounds for the advent of Messiah and then the Messiah will appear. (as Muslims believes in Imam Mehdi) So when Jesus (AS) made a claim to Messiahship, they rejected him saying we did not see Elijah (Ilyas, AS) descending from heavens. When Jesus (AS), claimed that John the Baptist (Yahya, AS) is the Promised Elijah (Ilyas, AS), Jews insisted that he should have descended from heavens if he was Elijah (Ilyas, AS) and so they rejected both Jesus (AS) as well as John (Yahya, AS).

      These 72 sects of Islam, at the time of the Promised Messiah (Hadhrat mirza Ghulam Ahmad) without any exception held the belief that Jesus (AS) ascended to heavens with his body and soul and it would be the same Jesus (AS) who will return as the Messiah for the Muslim Ummah. They insist on seeing him descend from heavens with his hand on the wings of two angles on the white Minaret.

      Just like the Muslims of the present times, the Jews of the time of Jesus (AS) were waiting for two figures to appear, a priestly Messiah (equivalent of Islamic Mahdi) and a worrier Messiah, a king who would come and deliver Israelite from the bondage of slavery.

      Thus when Jesus (AS) preached peace and tolerance and non-violence, Jews mocked at him and rejected him. Today Muslim well aware of the mistakes Jews made, insist on the coming of a Mahdi (the guided one) for the religious reformation of the Ummah and a worrier Messiah. They await a Messiah whose sole job will be to lead Muslims in a holy war against all the other powers of the world and shed blood and kill Dajjal and that's how, most of the Muslims of the present time believe, Messiah will save them.


    ::::::::::::: Name of the Sects in Islam and their Basic Beliefs ::::::::::::
    • 01. Jarudiah:
      Followers of Abu'l-Jarud. They believe Holy Prophet (pbuh) designated Al-Isa as the Imam by his characteristics but not by name.

      02. Sulamania:
      Followers of Sulaiman ibn-Jarir al-Zaidi. They believed Imamat was a matter of Jaririya conference and could be confirmed by two best Muslims.

      03. Butriyah:
      They did not dispute the Khilafat of Uthman (ra), neither they attack him nor Hurariyah praise him.

      04. Yaqubiyya:
      They accepted the Khilafat of Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra), but did not reject those who rejected these Khulifaa. They also believed that Muslim commiters of Major sins will be in hell forever.

      05. Hanafiyah:
      Followers of the Imammate of Muhammad ibn-al-Hanifah. They believe that Allah might have had a beginning.

      06. Karibiyah:
      They believed that Imam Muhammad ibn-al-Hanifah is not dead and is the Imam Ghaib (in disappearance) and the expected Mahdi.

      07. Kamiliyah:
      Followers of Abu-Kamil. They believed companions to be heretic because they forsook their allegiance to Ali (ra) and condemn Ali (ra) for ceasing to fight them. They believed in the returning of the dead before the Day of Resurrection and that Satan is right in preferring fire to clay.

      08. Muhammadiyyah:
      Followers of Muhammad ibn-Abdullah ibn-al-Hassan. They do not believe/Mughairiyah that Imam Muhammad ibn-Abdullah died and that he is the Imam Ghaib and awaited Mahdi.

      09. Baqiriyah:
      Followers of Muhammad ibn-Ali al-Baqir. They believe him to be the Imam Ghaib and expected Mahdi.

      10. Nadisiyah:
      They believe that those who consider themselves better than anyone else are Kafirs (disbelievers).

      11. Sha'iyah:
      They believe that the one who has recited La Ilaha Il-Allah (there is none worthy of worship except Allah), whatever she or he does, will never be punished.

      12. Ammaliyah:
      They believe that faith for one is what he/she sincerely practices.

      13. Ismailiyah:
      They believe in the continuity of Imammate among the descendants of Ismail ibn-Ja'far.

      14. Musawiyah:
      They believe Musa ibn-Ja'far to be the Imam Ghaib and expected Mahdi / Mamturah.

      15. Mubarakiyah:
      They believe in the continuity of Imammate among the descendants of Muhammad ibn-Ismail ibn-Ja'far.

      16. Kathiyah:
      They believe that expected Mehdi will be twelveth Imam among the /Ithn Áshariya descendants of the Áli ibn-abi-Talib. (The Twelvers).

      17. Hashamiya:
      They Predicate a body to Allah and also allege Prophet (pbuh) of disobedience/ Taraqibiyah to Allah

      18. Zarariyah:
      They believe that Allah did not live nor had any attributes till He created for Himself life and His attributes.

      19. Younasiyah:
      Followers of Younas ibn-Ábd-al-Rahman al-Kummi. They believe that Allah is borne by the bearers of His Throne, though He is stronger than they are.

      20. Shaitaniyah/Shireekiyah:
      They believed in the view that deeds of servants of Allah are substances; and a servant of Allah can really produce a substance.

      21. Azraqaih:
      Followers of Nafi ibn-al-Azraq. They do not believe in the good dreams and visions and claim that all forms of revelations have ended.

      22. Najadat:
      Followers of Najdah ibn-Ámir al-Hanafi. They abolished the punishment of drinking wine also they believed that sinners of this sect would not be treated in hellfire but some other place before allowed in Paradise.

      23. Sufriyah:
      Followers of Ziyad ibn-al-Asfar. They believed that sinners are in fact polytheists.

      24. Ajaridah:
      Followers of Abd-al-Karim ibn-Ajrad. They believed that a child should be called to Islam after it has attained maturity. Also they believed booty of war to be unlawful till the owner is killed.

      25. Khazimiyah:
      They believe Allah loves men of all faiths even if one has been a disbeliever most of his life.

      26. Shuaibiyah/Hujjatiyah:
      They believed that what Allah desires does happen no matter what and what does not happen it means Allah desires it not.

      27. Khalafiyah:
      Followers of Khalaf. They do not believe in fighting except under the leadership of an Imam.

      28. Ma'lumiyah/Majhuliah:
      They believed that whoever did not recognise Allah by His names was ignorant of Him and anyone ignorant of Him was a disbeliever.

      29. Saltiyah:
      Followers of Salt ibn-Usman. They believed in the conversion of adults only and if father has converted to Islam children were considered disbelievers till they reach maturity.

      30. Hamziyah:
      Followers of Hamza ibn-Akrak. They believe that children of polytheists are condemned to hell.

      31. Tha'libiyah:
      Followers of Tha'labah ibn-Mashkan. They believe that parents remain guardians over their children of any age until children make it clear to parents that they are turning away from truth.

      32. Ma'badiyah:
      They did not believe in taking or giving alms from or to slaves.

      33. Akhnasiyah:
      They do not believe in waging a war except in defence or when the opponent is known personally.

      34. Shaibaniyah/Mashbiyah:
      Followers of Shaiban ibn-Salamah al-Khariji. They believe that Allah resembles His creatures.

      35. Rashidiyah:
      They believe that land watered by springs, canals or flowing rivers should pay half the Zakat (tithe), while land watered by rain only should pay he full Zakat.

      36. Mukarramiyah/tehmiyah:
      Followers of abu-Mukarram. They believe that ignorance constitutes as disbelief. Also that Allah enmity or friendship depends upon the state of a persons' belief at his death.

      37. Abadiyah/Afáliyah:
      They consider Abdullah ibn-Ibad as their Imam. They believe in doing good deeds without the intention of pleasing Allah.

      38. Hafsiyah:
      Consider Hafs ibn-abi-l-mikdam as their Imam. They believe that only knowing Allah frees one from polytheism.

      39. Harithiya:
      Followers of Harith ibn-Mazid al-Ibadi. They believe that the ability precedes the deeds.

      40. Ashab Ta'áh:
      They believe that Allah can send a prophet without giving him any sign to prove his prophecy.

      41. Shabibiyah/Salihiyah:
      Followers of Shabib ibn-Yazid al-Shaibani. They believe in the Imamate of a woman named Ghazalah.

      42. Wasiliyah:
      Followers of Wasil ibn-'Ata al-Ghazza. They believe that does who commit major sins will be punished in hell but still remain believers.

      43. Ámriyah:
      Followers of Amir ibn-Ubaid ibn-Bab. They reject the legal testimony of people from supporters of either side of the battle of Camel.

      44. Hudhailiyah/Faniya:
      Followers of abu-al-Hudhail Muhammad ibn-al-Hudhail. They believe that both Hell and Paradise will perish and that preordination of Allah can cease, at which time Allah will no longer be omnipotent.

      45. Nazzamiyah:
      Followers of abu-Ishaq Ibrahim ibn-Saiyar. They do not believe in the miraculous nature of the Holy Quran nor do they believe in the miracles of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) like splitting the moon.

      46. Mu'ammariyah:
      They believe that Allah neither creates life nor death but it is an act of the nature of living body.

      47. Bashriyah:
      Followers of Bashr ibn-al-Mu'tamir. They believe that Allah may forgive a man his sins and may change His mind about this forgiveness and punish him if he is disobedient again.

      48. Hishamiyah:
      Followers of Hisham ibn-ämr al-Futi. They believe that if a Muslim community come to consensus it needs an Imam and if it rebels and kills its Imam, no one should be chosen an Imam during a rebellion.

      49. Murdariyah:
      Followers of Isa ibn-Sabih. They believe that staying in close communication with the Sultan (ruler) makes one unbeliever.

      50. Ja'friyah:
      Followers of Ja'far ibn-Harb and Ja'far ibn-Mubashshir. They believe that drinking raw wine is not punishable and that punishment of hell could be inferred by a mental process.

      51. Iskafiyah:
      Followers of Muhammad ibn-Abdallah al-Iskafi. They believe that Allah has power to oppress children and madman but not those who have their full senses.

      52. Thamamiyah:
      Followers of Thamamah ibn-Ashras al-Numairi. They believe that he whom Allah does not compel to know Him, is not compelled to know and is classed with animals who are not responsible.

      53. Jahiziayh:
      Followers of 'Ámr ibn-Bahr al-Jahiz. They believe that Allah is able to create a thing but unable to annihilate it.

      54. Shahhamiyah/Sifatiyah:
      Followers of abu-Yaqub al-Shahham. They believe that everything determined is determined by two determiners, one the creator and the other acquirer.

      55. Khaiyatiyah/Makhluqiyah:
      Followers of abu-al-Husain al-Khaiyat. They believe that everything non-existent is a body before it appears, like man before it is born is a body in non-existence. Also that every attribute becomes existent when it makes its appearance.

      56. Ka'biyah:
      Followers of abu-qasim Abdullah ibn-Ahmed ibn-Mahmud al-Banahi known as al-Ka'bi. They believe that Allah does not see Himself nor anyone else except in the sense that He knows himself and others.

      57. Jubbaiyah:
      Followers of abu-'Ali al-Jubbai. They believe that Allah obeys His servants when he fulfils their wish.

      58. Bahshamiyah:
      Followers of abu-Hashim. They believe that one, who desires to do a bad deed, though may not do it, commit infidelity and deserve punishment.

      59. Ibriyah:
      They believe that Holy Prophet (pbuh) was a wise man but not a prophet.

      60. Zanadiqiyah:
      They believe that the incident Miraj was a vision of the Holy prophet (pbuh) and that we can see Allah in this world.

      61. Qabariyya:
      They do not believe in the punishment of grave.

      62. Hujjatiya:
      They do not believe in the punishment for deeds on the grounds.

      63. Fikriyya:
      They believe that doing Dhikr and Fikr (Remembering and thinking about Allah) is better than worship.

      64. 'Aliviyah/Ajariyah:
      They believe that Hazrat Ali shared Prophethood with Mohammad (pbuh)

      65. Tanasikhiya:
      They believe in the re-incarnation of soul.

      66. Rajiýah:
      They believe that Hazrat Ali ibn-abi-Talib will return to this world.

      67. Ahadiyah:
      They believe in the Fardh (obligations) in faith but deny the Sunnah.

      68. Radeediyah:
      They believe that this world will live forever.

      69. Satbiriyah:
      They do not believe in the acceptance of repentance.

      70. Lafziyah:
      They believe that Quran is not the word of God but only its meaning and essence is the word of God. Words of Quran are just the words of the narrator.

      71. Ashariyah:
      They believe that Qiyas (taking a guess) is wrong and amounts to disbelief.

      72. Bada'iyah:
      They believe that obedience to Ameer is obligatory no matter what he commands.

      *Islamic Encyclopaedia published by Munshi Mehboob 'Alim' (editor Newspaper Paisa, Lahore, Pakistan). Page 570-572.
      *Al-Farq Bain Al Firaq, by Abu Mansur 'abd-al-Kahir ibn-Tahir al-Baghdadi, Translated into English by Kate Chambers Seelye, (AMS Press, NewYork 1996)
      *Kitab Lajawaab Masmay ba-Mazhab al-Islam by Hakeem Maulvi Muhammad Najam al-Ghani Rampuri, 1st edition, (Munshi Nau Lakshoor Lakhnau 1924).


      73. Ahmadiyya:
      The followers of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmed of Qadian (as). (1835 to 1908)
      They believe that he is THE PROMISED MESSIAH and IMAM MEHDI.
      They believe in the FINALITY OF PROPHETHOOD OF THE HOLY PROPHET (pbuh) and that he was the SEAL of the all the Prophets.
      They believe that the Jesus Christ was NOT CRUCIFIED but DIED a natural death.

    zameen tumhara kuch nahin bigar sakhtee, ger aasman say taluq pukhta ho....

    #2
    ::::::::::::: Literal Fulfillment of Prophecy: Existence of 73 Sections ::::::::::::
    • Having mentioned the resemblance of his Ummah with Jews, and division of the Ummah into 73 sections, Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) mentions that all will be in fire except one. Meaning 72 sects will be in fire while one will be safe. When asked who the safe ones will be, Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) replied “They are those who will be like me and my companions" indicating that remaining 72 will resemble Israelites while only one will resemble him and his companions. Having said that we have to understand that there ought to be a way to separate one Jama'at from 72. Thus there should be some method by which these two sets of entities among Muslim Ummah will be formed and in one set there will be only one Jama'at (to which Holy Prophet, peace be upon him, referred to as resembling him and his companions) while the other set will contain 72 sects which will resemble Jews. To go any further we have to establish here three things.

    • Firstly that there were at one time 73 sections of Muslims.
    • Secondly they formed two sets on containing one Jama'at and the other one containing 72 sects.
    • Thirdly the set containing one Jama'at consisted of the followers of a claimant of Messiahship. The third condition has to be fulfilled because, we are referring to the time of the Promised Messiah (AS), only the followers of Messiah can form a Jama'at which resembles Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) and his companions (RA). To establish that the above mentioned three conditions were fulfilled, following are the translations of newspapers.


    An editorial published in Urdu in Pakistani daily newspaper "Nawai Waqt" (10th Oct. 1974, pg.4)
    • "One of the special importance of this decision has been that on it the consensus of Ummah has been in substantially correct manner. Throughout the history of Islam, such an overwhelming complete consensus has never been reached on any important topic. Other than the big religious scholars, holders of Shar'a, all the political leaders and political leaders of each group have agreed on this consensus. Other than these, all sufia karam, aarifeen Billah, the leaders of Tassawaf and practices had complete agreement. Excluding Qadianis all the rest of 72 sects, which are considered, to be of Muslims, agreed and are happy on the solution of this affair. Among the leaders of the nation and a'maideen, there does not appear to be any group which does not have a joyous attitude towards this decision. Nation should take a notice of this."


    And that was not the only newspaper, which testified the number to be 72 following is another testimony of an English newspaper published from U.K. "The Guardian" (9th Sept. 1974)
    • "By a constitutional amendment the National Assembly has stripped half a million members of the Ahmadiyya community of their religious status as Moslems. The excommunication of such a large number claiming to be Moslems by a political institution is a unique event in the 1400 years of the history of Islam. The burden of taking the measure fell on the National Assembly because Islam rejects priesthood and the Moslems, although divided into 72 sects, do not have a church or a pope. Religious edicts handed down by muftis or religious scholars are not binding on any individual or body of Moslems."


    Clearly, according to these newspapers there existed 73 sections in Islam, one Jama'at-e-Ahmadiyya and the rest of the 72. The rest of the 72 sects were unanimous and happy and formed a party (a set) excluding the one (the other set) from Islam. Although they all had fatwas declaring one another to be kafirs, when it came to the question of Ahmadi Muslims they were all united so that there remains no doubt as to the identity of 72 and one making a total of 73. I have already established that Jews had 72 sects at the time of Messiah, so this hadith would be reflecting the time of Messiah among Muslim Ummah, which all Muslims today believe is also the time of the appearance of the Mahdi.
    • It will appropriate to leave unto the readers, who may see the resemblance of one Jama'at (out of 73 Sects of Muslims) with the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and his companions, with some Ahadith of the holy Prophet (pbuh) to ponder over.

    zameen tumhara kuch nahin bigar sakhtee, ger aasman say taluq pukhta ho....

    Comment


      #3
      Please. Links to the sites??? please.

      ------------------
      *V~V~V*He came, He saw, He conquered*V~V~V*
      ______________
      -_-_-_-High Priest_-OF-_Painful Truth-_-_-_-
      __________
      And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when you know (what it is).
      [Quran,Al-Baqara, 42.

      Comment


        #4
        Zalim: your discussion and arguments are interesting and compelling.
        Most of the sects you mentioned are totally unknown to me and I don't claim to be highly knowledgeable in this regard but it seems that those sects are fairly old and probably existed during first few centuries of Islam and does not exist any more. This list also does not encompasses currently esisting sects. So how would explain combining nonexisting sects with current sects of Islam and making it an argument to explain occurrence of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as the promised Messiah in the presence of 72 sects?

        ------------------
        Belief is not what mind possesses, it is what possesses the mind!

        Comment


          #5
          ::: Watcher why you are so much dependent on web-sites eh? Sir I avoid quoting web-sites, to me most carry fictions than facts. The above is an abstract from a monthly magazine Review Of Religions, (USA). I re-posted this with some corrections and details.

          Doesn’t matter if Muslims are divided into 73 factions or 730, the point is despite of the ”perfect teachings”, and despite of “a LAST prophet”, the Muslim Ummah is still divided into factions and sub-factions. WHY? How can you give your baseless arguments a ground to stand over here.

          Do you have one good excuse?

          Even if the Quran says that ‘Islam is perfected’, 1400 years ago, this splitting of Islam is already destined and it clearly portrays that there is a need for a divinely guided reformer (a prophet precisely), who will gather all the morally and spiritually lost sheep’s of Mohammad(sa) under one roof.

          I know you will disagree with me this time also, but the message is very clear. (ask Allah if you doubt, trust me He wont misguide you)

          exclusively yours,

          Zalim
          zameen tumhara kuch nahin bigar sakhtee, ger aasman say taluq pukhta ho....

          Comment


            #6
            • ::: analyze it, thanks for the kind words. I know some of the sects are unknown to me also, either because they are not confined to the sub-continent, or they don’t exist today or may be the one not listed are the distorted/refined forms of one or the other. Well they are not crafted on my keyboard, I quoted the references at the bottom of both Jewish and Islamic Sects. If you can access, you may confirm.

              But as I said, it doesn’t matter the Muslims are sheared apart in some particular numerical figure or not, the fact is there is prophecy, and it has to be fulfilled, if not yet fulfilled. Now being Muslim it’s a responsibility on you to seek the right sect. There is only one out of whatsoever.

              Why not think that you belong to one of those who will be sent to hell (instead of assigning jannat by yourself). Fear this and sincerely ask Allah’s guidance for the right path (without His help you are lost).

              And for the argument of selecting which sect carry the righteous ones, this yardstick is also chalked out in the same great prophecy.

              Holy Prophet said: they will be like me and my companions.

              Now for a moment take yourself back in time of the Holy Prophet(sa) and his companions and see which sects falls precisely in this criteria.

              Like for example;
              1) They were not allowed to say Allah is one and Mohammad is his messenger.
              2) They were not allowed to Pray to Allah.
              3) They were not allowed to call themselves Muslims
              4) They were not allowed to perform Hajj
              5) They were not allowed to preach Islam.
              6) They were persecuted and humiliated at every nook and corner.

              Can you compare any example like this with any sect? Well NO… go to the very corners of the world, still you wont find a single nazeer to this.

              Now look at this kafir sect, Ahmadiyya, Do you have guts to compare? I will wait for you honest reply.

              So how can someone deny this aspect of the same great prophecy of our Beloved Prophet(sa).

              wasalam.




            [This message has been edited by Zalim (edited March 14, 2001).]
            zameen tumhara kuch nahin bigar sakhtee, ger aasman say taluq pukhta ho....

            Comment


              #7
              Zalim, I am assuming that you typed this in then? Or copy paste from that megazines site?

              The reason behind division is deviation of Muslims from the actual Islam. It is a prophecy of MOhammad(pbuh) and it is coming true. It is destined to be like this. Allah tests his followers, his servants with many ways and this is one of those ways.

              Its up to the individuals to see the truth and not blindly follow every other "sheeday" da puter" who claims he is a prophet. If you blindly follow something illogical, stupid as someone who claims he is a prophet yet there are NO sign of his prophethood.

              You are right, ISLAM IS PERFECTED, no question about that. Your life will be as well, if you FOLLOW it wholeheartedly. If you throw the truth aside and believe some "stooge" that he is a prophet, how do you expect anything good to happen and how do you expect deviation to go away? [considering same approach, ahmadism is not so divine either, its breaking into various sects now, some say mirza was prophet and some say he wasn't.]

              WE MUST chose the right path, there is ONLY ONE right path wether its 73 sect or 730 sects.

              ------------------
              *V~V~V*He came, He saw, He conquered*V~V~V*
              ______________
              -_-_-_-High Priest_-OF-_Painful Truth-_-_-_-
              __________
              And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when you know (what it is).
              [Quran,Al-Baqara, 42.

              [This message has been edited by The Watcher (edited March 14, 2001).]

              Comment


                #8
                • So watcher what is your credibility that you are following the right path? Who told you that you are among the particular chosen sect. Your maulvi sahab, your ammi abu, your holy web-sites or your madarsa, or its just a state of self arrogance?

                  Say astagfaar, you are playing God over here, assigning jannat by yourself, and assigning others a hell.

                  That’s a pure shirk watcher.

                  How can you prove that I am following blindly and you have all your eyes and ears open. Don’t give me the replies with loose ends, the 72 examples are infront of you, all very boldly claim they are true, you stand in the same queue.

                  And as for ‘sheeday da putter’ type lingo, I feel very pitty on your religious upbringing, it greatly lacks respect. Qurans says, kissi kay khudaoon ko bhi bura na kaho. Don’t know which Quran you follow.
                  The Book is full of examples how previous generations treated their Prophets, its not new, all the dis-believers use the same type of tactics. (Al-Quran).

                  Mind you one thing, He did not claimed Prophet by himself, its ALLAH you assigned him this rank.
                  Now you may use any word, because you have to answer him not me or any gupshupper.

                  Don’t know why all the Muslims think that coming of a Prophet is a curse without any sound argument and reasoning Though on the other hand, the PERFECT TEACHINGS of the Holy Quran and the concept of the LAST prophet (sa), fail squarely to save Muslim Ummah from splitting into bits and pieces.

                  Desolately, as I said earlier, all your rubbish talks are way far from spirituality and greatly lacks TAQWA.


                zameen tumhara kuch nahin bigar sakhtee, ger aasman say taluq pukhta ho....

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Zalim:
                  • So watcher what is your credibility that you are following the right path? Who told you that you are among the particular chosen sect. Your maulvi sahab, your ammi abu, your holy web-sites or your madarsa, or its just a state of self arrogance?

                    Say astagfaar, you are playing God over here, assigning jannat by yourself, and assigning others a hell.

                    That’s a pure shirk watcher.

                    How can you prove that I am following blindly and you have all your eyes and ears open. Don’t give me the replies with loose ends, the 72 examples are infront of you, all very boldly claim they are true, you stand in the same queue.

                    And as for ‘sheeday da putter’ type lingo, I feel very pitty on your religious upbringing, it greatly lacks respect. Qurans says, kissi kay khudaoon ko bhi bura na kaho. Don’t know which Quran you follow.
                    The Book is full of examples how previous generations treated their Prophets, its not new, all the dis-believers use the same type of tactics. (Al-Quran).

                    Mind you one thing, He did not claimed Prophet by himself, its ALLAH you assigned him this rank.
                    Now you may use any word, because you have to answer him not me or any gupshupper.

                    Don’t know why all the Muslims think that coming of a Prophet is a curse without any sound argument and reasoning Though on the other hand, the PERFECT TEACHINGS of the Holy Quran and the concept of the LAST prophet (sa), fail squarely to save Muslim Ummah from splitting into bits and pieces.

                    Desolately, as I said earlier, all your rubbish talks are way far from spirituality and greatly lacks TAQWA.


                  and for you sir, but do you think the unrested will rest? doubt it.



                  Comment


                    #10
                    Zalim Bhai, you do a great job! keep it up!

                    Hamain app say nisbat-e-rashk hay, Wish I had the patience as you do!
                    I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
                    - Robert McCloskey

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Well we all know what sect the disrespectful, rude, ignorant priest of lies (Watcher) is from.. The wahabie (Or Najdi) sect. And Najd was dispraised by the Prophet.


                      [This message has been edited by Ahmad G (edited March 14, 2001).]
                      Ahmad G
                      Islamic Studies Teacher/Student.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Prophet Muhammad informed us, and he said, that only righteous sect is the one that follows me and my sahabah. Ignorance is not an execuse, you are accountable for yourself, Allah gave you intelect, and gave you the choice, and most importantly ordered you to acquire the Islamic Knowledge, have the correct creed, and perform obligations as per the teachings of our hounorable Prophet. You better move on and acquire knowledge, the day of judgment could be near.

                        MAY ALLAH GRANT THEM HUMBELNESS TO ACCEPT THE PURE TRUTH AND MAY ALLAH GUIDE THEM TO THE RIGHT PATH, AND MAY ALLAH PROTECT US FROM THOSE WHO OPPOSED PROPHET MUHAMMAD AND HIS SAHABAH'S METHODOLOGY.

                        AND ALLAH KNOWS BEST.
                        Ahmad G
                        Islamic Studies Teacher/Student.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Ahmad G, the najd you are talking about is in IRAQ that Prophet Mohammad talks about in hadiths. I am sure you must have confused that with najd which is in Arabia.

                          Zalim, so far you have failed to answer my questions regarind prophecies of your prophet.
                          NYa, failed to do that either, instead he tried to create a rumble in other forums just to avoid the questions.
                          Ahmadjee, is still searching for his friend who has the AHMADISM books.
                          Johnd, I don't know what happened to him after that other thread.
                          Insaniyaat, still trying to figure out if she/he is shia or ahmadi.[she/he pretened for sometime that s/he was shia but now the truth came out...]

                          You are still struggling but only with support of conjectures and nothing else. What is your basis of believing in prophecies of Mirza sahib when none of those prophecies came true, isn't that blind faith? Isn't that blind following something which is false, lie and example of extreme arrogance [admin im sorry for using the word "arrogant" in my reply - nya used F*** word many times, make sure you note next time - thank you sir.]

                          How I know, if I am following the truth?

                          To determine the validity of any thing, you need proofs. Quran, a miracle on its own and one of the miracles revealed upon Mohammad(pbuh) is the only proof that one needs to differentiate between True and False.

                          Allah says in Quran:
                          "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to God), never will it be accepted of Him."
                          [Qur’an 3:85]

                          "That which you worship besides Him are only names and you and your forefathers have invented for which Allah has sent down no authority: the command belongs only to Allah He has command that you worship Him; that is the right religion, but most men do not understand."
                          [Qur’an 12:40]


                          "I have only created jinns and men, that they may worship Me"
                          [Qur’an 51:56]

                          "Verily, those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians (angel-and-star-worshippers) -- any of these who believe in Allah and the Last Day and work righteousness shall have their reward with their Lord. They will not be overcome by fear or grief."
                          [Qur’an 2:62]

                          Here is hadith which kind of connects with the above verse:

                          "Whoever among the Christians and Jews hears of me but does not affirm his belief in what I brought and dies in this state will be among the inhabitants of hell."
                          (Sahih Muslim [English Translation], Vol.1 P.91 No, 284)


                          "We will show them our signs In the furthest regions (of the earth) and in their souls, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth."

                          [Qur’an 41:53]

                          Prove Quran wrong from one of your Qadianism books.

                          Don't put your words in my mouth, I am not playing God, you should be ashamed of your self by putting this kind of allegation on me without any proof. You like to twist things, don't you?
                          Also, you say I get my Islam from websites, and I get information about your deviated religion from websites, yet you use the "web sites" to give me the information about your own religion. How pathetic and stupid. How can you use something as proof or argument to present me when you your self does not like when someone gives you the information from the "websites?"

                          Allah asigned prophet hood to Mirza? Where does it say so? What is your proof blind man? His contradictory writings? His prophecies, which never came true? His stupendous loyality and foot-licking to British Imperial Government, is that your proof of saying that he was prophet asigned by Allah?

                          How can you say that, when you cannot even answer my simple questions about his prophecies?

                          ‘This is my Lord this is the greatest (of all).’ But when the sun set, he said; ‘O my people I am indeed free from your (guilt) of giving partners to Allah.

                          For me, I have set my face, firmly and truly, towards Him who created the heavens and the earth, and never shall I give partners to Allah"

                          [Qur’an 6:75-79]

                          "We will show them our signs In the furthest regions (of the earth) and in their souls, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth."

                          [Qur’an 41:53]


                          ------------------
                          *V~V~V*He came, He saw, He conquered*V~V~V*
                          ______________
                          -_-_-_-High Priest_-OF-_Painful Truth-_-_-_-
                          __________
                          And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when you know (what it is).
                          [Quran,Al-Baqara, 42.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            [QUOTE]Originally posted by Zalim:
                            [b][list]
                            [b]Holy Prophet said: they will be like me and my companions.

                            Now for a moment take yourself back in time of the Holy Prophet(sa) and his companions and see which sects falls precisely in this criteria.

                            Like for example;
                            1) They were not allowed to say Allah is one and Mohammad is his messenger.
                            2) They were not allowed to Pray to Allah.
                            3) They were not allowed to call themselves Muslims
                            4) They were not allowed to perform Hajj
                            5) They were not allowed to preach Islam.
                            6) They were persecuted and humiliated at every nook and corner.

                            Can you compare any example like this with any sect? Well NO… go to the very corners of the world, still you wont find a single nazeer to this.

                            Now look at this kafir sect, Ahmadiyya, Do you have guts to compare? I will wait for you honest reply.



                            wasalam.


                            --------------------------------------------
                            I agree that Qadianis are under great hardship which is absolutely unfair but I would disgree that Qadianis should compare themselves with Prophet Muhammad and his companions. Reason is that in Islamic history several people calimed prophecies e.g. Musailama Kazzab at the time of Hadhrat Abu Bakr and he and companion met same or worse fate. Claims of prophecies are not uncommmon in Isslamic history and they all were condemned except by a limited number of their followers. So how does it distinguish Qadianis from other similar claims?

                            I dont mean to totally reject your argument but it not highly appealing because even now if anybody claims of prophecies and manages to convince some followers, he and his followers will be treated in absolutely the same way as you just outlined in your post.




                            ------------------
                            Belief is not what mind possesses, it is what possesses the mind!

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Dear watcher, forget about Mirzaee prophecies, tell me what do you confer from the prophecy we are talking about on this thread.? Don’t try to twist the topic, svp.
                              • by the way, I swear to God, in whose hand is my life, if the words of the prophecies as you are trying to impose from crapy web-sites were actually spoken by that Ghulam of Ahmad(sa), they would have come true also.

                                Now stay calm, I will scan the relevant pages for you and upload it shortly…



                              Dear Analyzer, it absolutely doesn’t matter, you consider Ahmadis right or wrong. My question was, according to the prophecy (i.e. they will be like me and my companions), can you bring out any sect parallel to the lives of Prophet(sa) and his companions? Even though you deny that Ahmadis are not true, you can still measure them up very easily, dot by dot. (your argument that all the false claimant can fit in this criteria, is very loosely penned).
                              • Secondly, as you pointed out that Islamic history is full of false claimants, so true, though have you ever tried to cross examine this also that how long they survived after their claim? How many followers they left behind? And how they die?

                                The fact is, to scrutinize the truth of a claimant, his past life and his previous character plays a major role. Holy Prophet(sa) when claim that He is appointed by Allah, people accepted him because of his previous personality for which he was know as Sadiq and Amin and not because what he claimed. (recall what hadhrat Abu Bakr siddiq.ra said, ’tell me You(sa) claimed as such or not, because I know You never lie’). Similar is the platform of all the prophets.

                                Its not easy to stood up and claim out of the blue about the prophetship, if you read Quran the severe punishment is outlined very clearly. Allah while addressing Prophet Mohammad’sa says, even if you have said something that I have not revealed to you, I (Allah) would have grabbed you with my right hand cut off your lifeline. (summary of Sura Al haq’qa- last ruku). So how can you (being a Muslim), imagine that someone claimed so falsely and his followers are increasing by leap and bounds - a thought very contrary to the words of Allah.

                                It’s about hundred years since this jama’at was established, a single man in a very remote village received the revelation that “Thy(Allah) shall carry your message to the corners of the world” and today it is not difficult to see his followers physically at every nook and corner. The MTA (Muslim Television Ahmadiyya) the only Muslim satellite channel running 24hrs a day and sending the true message of Islam in different languages is also acknowledging that revelation, sending its signal to the very corners of the world.

                                Even more, one with a keen eye can easily see how fast this jamaat is spreading. Just for example last year over 40 MILLION people entered Islam through this sect (a scene sketched in sura al-Nasr).

                                Can a false claimant survive that long and attain such victory? Quran says, for a kazib(liar) his kazab(lie) is sufficient to kill him. If it has been false it would have been eradicated soon it was formed.

                                Now the decision rests on you, after all it is a very fearing responsibility on you to seek the promised jamm'at.



                              [This message has been edited by Zalim (edited March 15, 2001).]
                              zameen tumhara kuch nahin bigar sakhtee, ger aasman say taluq pukhta ho....

                              Comment

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