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    PakistaniAbroad . .

    Asalamalikum Brother,
    I have a few questions for you. I've seen that you've stressed in many threads that you have no belief in the sunnah of the Prophet(PBUH), and that you do not believe that the hadith of the Prophet(PBUH) should be followed upon. I was just a little confused and would be grateful if you could answer the following questions for me:
    • Do you pray salat? What are your guidelines for saying salat and where are they derived from?
    • Do you not agree that one too many 'translations' can be derived from the same Quran? At such a time cant we use the hadith of the Prophet(PBUH) as a pointer?
    • Don't you think that the person who has delivered the message would have a good understanding of it too? Would he not try to follow the message? Then isn't he a good example to follow?
    • If Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH)'s only purpose was to provide you with the message and nothing more- wouldn't it have been more feasible had the Quran been delivered right into our hands so that the whole messenger thing could have been avoided? Or maybe you COULD have been the messenger? Dont you think something in Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) makes him different from you?


    BTW- I would like it if you dont tell me that all Hadith are fabrications- because all sahih hadiths have authentic backgrounds and each and every quote is referenced right to its origin.

    I would be glad if you actually answer all the questions- with some firm logic. I would also like it if no other members make lousy comments like someone someone is kafir etc. JazakAllah all

    (This question is open for any and every person who can answer these questions- PakistaniAbroad is the only person on board that I know of who rejects hadith, hence its directed at him)

    #2
    lol, my elder a self declared mutazillite also sidelines ahadith..and scoffs at me by calleing me a alhe hadith LOL HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    I call him an upstart heretic hehehehehehehe

    But mutazilite werent heretics though....

    Comment


      #3
      I use to subscribe to a list called 'rope', or something to that effect, its a group of Muslims who have rejected the hadith and rely solely on the Quran for guidance. Many of the contributors were very well versed in the Qur'an and could quite easily analyze verses. What was missing in their explanations was the historical context.

      There's a website with a bunch of info from people who proscribe to this belief system here:
      http://www.toluislam.com

      I don't proscribe to this belief, but I do believe that hadith should be viewed with skepticism, especially weak hadith, and the Qur'an should be used as the primary source of guidance.

      Achtung

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Ace:
        BTW- I would like it if you dont tell me that all Hadith are fabrications- because all sahih hadiths have authentic backgrounds and each and every quote is referenced right to its origin.
        Ace:

        Just my two cents on the above. Not ALL Sahih hadiths are authentic, though they are Sahih!

        When people like Imam Bukhari (ra) and Imam Muslim (ra) tried to compile Ahadiths, they were confronted by this enormous volume of traditions. So as any literary work of compilation, they made themselves some rules and following those rules they included some Ahadiths as sahih and considered others not so trust worthy. They were not perfect in their rules, nor they themselves ever claim to be.

        Actually it is said about Imam Bukhari (ra) that he would sometimes disagree with the Hadiths (or his conscious would consider if false) but still would include it in his compilations just because it would fall under the rules he deviced. Similarly, I believe it was Hazrat Imam Muslim (ra) who would say two nawafil after compiling every Hadiths, praying to Allah to forgive him for his mistakes.

        So, the bottom line is, that there are Ahadiths that are authentic but not part of the Six Sahih Ahadiths. And then there are Ahadiths that are part of those books but go totally against the teachings of Quran, so cannot be authentic. Readers have to make their own judgment taking into consideration the whole Philosophy of the teachings of Islam.
        I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
        - Robert McCloskey

        Comment


          #5
          Jazaka'llah ahmadjee- but I do believe that any hadith that contradicts the quran should not be considered. Also the original question was something else, it was in regards to people who completely reject hadith.

          Achtung bro- Yes ofcource Quran IS the primary source for guidance- but like I've said before Quran is more like a rule book and Hadith its implementation.

          Naoo'zobillah- I am not equating the Hadith to quran but like I've said above, hadith can be used as a pointer.

          Comment


            #6
            Ace,

            I understood your question and agreed to it but just wanted to take this opportunity to clear up a common misunderstanding. :~)

            I am very interested to know what PA has to say as I disagree with him on rejecting Ahadiths altogether.


            [This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited April 05, 2002).]
            I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
            - Robert McCloskey

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by ahmadjee:



              So, the bottom line is, that there are Ahadiths that are authentic but not part of the Six Sahih Ahadiths. And then there are Ahadiths that are part of those books but go totally against the teachings of Quran, so cannot be authentic.
              Brother can you plz give me some examples of the sahih hadiths that contradict the Quran, jazak 'Allah khair

              Comment


                #8
                No answers? I doubt I've left you speechless!

                One more question for you to tackle: Why is 'Muhammad'ur-Rasool-Ullah' Part of the kalima?

                So to be a muslim one has to believe in the Muhammad-ur_rasool_ullah part as well- Could you expand on the importance of that?

                Comment


                  #9
                  Give him some time, he will come to this forum. I haven't seen him posting anywhere on this forum!
                  I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
                  - Robert McCloskey

                  Comment


                    #10
                    1. Do you pray salat? What are your guidelines for saying salat and where are they derived from?
                    Yes. From the Qur'an.

                    Do you not agree that one too many 'translations' can be derived from the same Quran? At such a time cant we use the hadith of the Prophet(PBUH) as a pointer?
                    Hadith as you refer to them.. No.

                    Q3: Don't you think that the person who has delivered the message would have a good understanding of it too? Would he not try to follow the message? Then isn't he a good example to follow?
                    Yes and Yes and Yes.

                    Q4: If Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH)'s only purpose was to provide you with the message and nothing more - wouldn't it have been more feasible had the Quran been delivered right into our hands so that the whole messenger thing could have been avoided? Or maybe you COULD have been the messenger? Dont you think something in Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) makes him different from you?
                    The Prophet was just one of us. He was chosen for the task by Allah which he dutifully completed. btw it's not MY assertion it's what the Qur'an tells me.

                    A Book in the hand of beduins doesn't speak for itself. It cannot lead in wars, or provide political leadership etc.

                    Q5: BTW- I would like it if you dont tell me that all Hadith are fabrications- because all sahih hadiths have authentic backgrounds and each and every quote is referenced right to its origin.
                    authentic?? has each and every reference been proven to be correct beyond doubt, or has any supporting documentary evidence?? The answer is a resounding NO.
                    JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
                      Yes. From the Quran
                      Willing to expand on this one? Since Quran is complete it must give you exact instructions on how to offer Salat.

                      Hadith as you refer to them.. No.
                      Why not?
                      I knew your answers brother- I just wanted to know why you believe in a certain thing.

                      Yes and Yes and Yes.
                      Cool. So then why so reluctant on following his Sunnah. Nobody is asking you to follow any which would contradict the Quran, but I DO think they can act as an example of how Islam should be implemented.

                      The Prophet was just one of us. He was chosen for the task by Allah which he dutifully completed. btw it's not MY assertion it's what the Qur'an tells me.

                      A Book in the hand of beduins doesn't speak for itself. It cannot lead in wars, or provide political leadership etc.
                      A book in the hand of beduins doesn't speak for itself, but one in your hand CAN? There must be some hikmat in choosing a messenger.

                      authentic?? has each and every reference been proven to be correct beyond doubt, or has any supporting documentary evidence?? The answer is a resounding NO.
                      Not each and every, but most have been referenced and very well documented. Ofcourse one can not provide any other evidence other than whats written. But as long as it helps us understand the Quran, whats wrong with it? The scholars who collected these hadith made a great effort to collect, combine and authenticate the references. Many hadith are referenced back to the original person.

                      It is referenced that Hazrat Muhammad said that "And anyone who writes something from me other than the Quran- then let him erase it"- so this means that the Prophet(PBUH)'s word shouldn't be taken as being as important as the Quran. But at times when Hazrat Muhammad(PBUH) would explain a certain thing to one of the followers, and he would not be able to memorize it, Hazrat Muhammad(PBUH) WOULD allow them to write it on their hands or take a note of it.

                      I guess to sum it up- As long as hadith does not add to/take away/change anything that is in the Quran, it should be safe to follow it as 'guidance'. Dont you think so?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Brother Ace why does it matter what he believes?? Maybe it would be better if you read about them yourself

                        as-Saffaareenee (rahima-hullaah) said:

                        ((And we are not focusing on mentioning the virtues of the people of Hadeeth, for indeed their virtues are well known and their merits are many. So whoever belittles them, then he is despicable and lowly. And whoever hates them, then he is from the backward party of the Devil)).
                        Lawaa.ihul-Anwaar - Volume 2, Page 355

                        al-Hasan al-Basree (rahima-hullaah) mentions:

                        ((Do not sit with the people of innovation and desires, nor argue with them, nor listen to them)).
                        Sunan ad-Daarimee (1/121)


                        Abu Haatim (rahima-hullaah) said:

                        ((A sign of the people of innovation is their battling against the people of Narrations)).
                        Sharh Usool I'tiqaad Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah - al-Laalikaa'ee - Volume 1, Page 179

                        Sufyaan ath-Thowree (rahima-hullaah) mentions:

                        ((Whoever listens to an innovator has left the protection of Allaah and is entrusted with the innovation)).
                        Abu Nu'aym in al-Hilyah (7/26) and Ibn Battah (no.444)

                        al-Fudayl bin 'Iyaad (rahima-hullaah) mentions:

                        ((I met the best of people, all of them people of the Sunnah and they used to forbid from accompanying the people of innovation)).
                        al-Laalikaa'ee - Sharh Usool I'tiqaad Ahlis-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah (no.267)

                        Comment


                          #13
                          al-Humaydee, the Shaykh of al-Bukhaaree said:

                          ((By Allaah, that I war against those who reject the hadeeth of the Messenger (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) is more beloved to me than that I should war against the same number of Non-Muslims)).

                          al-Harawee in Dhamm al-Kalaam

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Jazaka'llah Sister for sharing.
                            It matters to me what he believes in, because it might help me look harder at my own beliefs. He thinks he is just as right as you or I are- so why not try to work out the differences in beliefs rather than cast anyone else as being an innovator?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Willing to expand on this one? Since Quran is complete it must give you exact instructions on how to offer Salat.
                              Hmmm why does it appear from your statement that you doubt if the Qur'an is complete.

                              Why not?
                              Cool. So then why so reluctant on following his Sunnah. Nobody is asking you to follow any which would contradict the Quran, but I DO think they can act as an example of how Islam should be implemented.
                              I cannot be sure that what we have in the shape of "Sayings of the Prophet" are actually what he said.

                              A book in the hand of beduins doesn't speak for itself, but one in your hand CAN? There must be some hikmat in choosing a messenger.
                              Yes. It's God's system of having human beings deliver the message to their fellow beings and in the case of Prophet Muhammad, he was chosen to lead a nation. Just a scripture cannot achieve political and military victories.

                              [bani Isra'il 17:93] Or thou have a house of gold; or thou ascend up into heaven, and even then we will put no faith in thine ascension till thou bring down for us a book that we can read. Say (O Muhammad): My Lord be Glorified! Am I aught save a mortal messenger?

                              [bani Isra'il 17:94] And naught prevented mankind from believing when the guidance came unto them save that they said: Hath Allah sent a mortal as (His) messenger ?

                              [bani Isra'il 17:95] Say: If there were in the earth angels walking secure, We had sent down for them from heaven an angel as messenger

                              Not each and every, but most have been referenced and very well documented.
                              No they are not. Re study the criteria for a hadith to be 'Sahih'.

                              Ofcourse one can not provide any other evidence other than whats written.
                              What's written 200 years after the Prophet's death CANNOT be taken as correct since no documentary evidence is available to trace it back through each narrator.

                              But as long as it helps us understand the Quran, whats wrong with it?
                              We do NOT need anything else to understand the Qur'an. The Qur'an explains itself. The problem the Ummah faces today is due to these fabrications which are allowed to override what's in the Qur'an.

                              Take one simple example. The punishment for adulterers. Qur'an specifies 100 lashes. These fabricated accounts ask for stoning to death. AND all ignorant Muslims follow these fabrications.. you tell me isn't it blasphemy and isn't this intruding into Allah's laws by establishinga parallel branch of religion that overrides the Qur'anic instructions?


                              The scholars who collected these hadith made a great effort to collect, combine and authenticate the references. Many hadith are referenced back to the original person.
                              They only mention the names. There are NO documentary evidence or evidence that these people even existed!!

                              YOu seem like a fairly intelligent person Ace.. try this at home:

                              The most 'prolific' of the authors of "Sahah" is Al-Bukhari (194-256 A.H./810-870 C.E.)

                              He claims to have collected six hundred thousand 'aHadeeth, examined and sifted them, finally settling on about seventy six hundred which, when the repetitions are deleted, drop to about four thousand.

                              Now just sit back and think.. Bukhari is said to have been born blind. No reading or writing till 10 years of age. Then he slowly gained his vision and started learning to read and write.

                              From 810 to 870 gives him 60 years to live
                              He doesn't start till he's 10 years old and definitely didn't start writing the same day so let's assume he started his effort when he was educated and 20.

                              That gives him 40 years.

                              Now take away only 10 years for all the travel on foot/camel to Mecca, attending to slave trading, eating, conjugal responsibilities writing other books and all other travel to collect these Hadiths.

                              Leaves him 30 years.

                              If he worked 24 hours a day non stop for the entire period of 30 years.. did NOTHING else and collected 600,000 hadiths he spent a little over 40 minutes on each hadith establishing the authenticity, tracing all narrators back to their origin, being meticulous about it and then selecting or discarding it.

                              I personally am not willing to bet my religion on such 'research'.

                              It is referenced that Hazrat Muhammad said that "And anyone who writes something from me other than the Quran- then let him erase it"- so this means that the Prophet(PBUH)'s word shouldn't be taken as being as important as the Quran.
                              Yes there is one hadith like that..

                              But at times when Hazrat Muhammad(PBUH) would explain a certain thing to one of the followers, and he would not be able to memorize it, Hazrat Muhammad(PBUH) WOULD allow them to write it on their hands or take a note of it.
                              yes the Sunnis have found this hadith for their convenience.. but how come it's not in their Sahihs??

                              I guess to sum it up- As long as hadith does not add to/take away/change anything that is in the Quran, it should be safe to follow it as 'guidance'. Dont you think so?
                              A LOT of history needs to be studied to realize when and how and why the compilation of hadith began, who was behind the MAJORITY of narrations and how easily a religion was derailed by introducing extra Qur'anic texts and allowing these man written texts to override a divine scripture.


                              [al-An`am 6:114] Shall I seek other than Allah for judge, when He it is Who hath revealed unto you (this) Scripture,fully explained? Those unto whom We gave the Scripture (aforetime) know that it is revealed from thy Lord in truth. So be not thou (O Muhammad) of the waverers.
                              JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

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