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    4 witnesses vs. DNA test

    In the other thread there is an interesting discussion going on between Quranic law being outdated or not and it made me think of this question. Among the new innovations in the crime investigation technologies, DNA has done wonders; so, how will the Islamic law handle if there is difference between the testimony of the 4 witnesses, accusing someone of adultery with this person A, while the DNA test shows it was some other person B?

    Which evidence will weigh more, DNA results or the 4 witnesses?
    I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
    - Robert McCloskey

    #2
    DNA doesn't lie.

    Witnesses can lie.

    ------------------
    Jitna Diya Sarkar Nay Mujko, Itni Meri Auqat Nahi, Yeh Saab Tumhara Karam Hai Aqa, Mujh Mein Aisi Koi Baat Nahin.


    It is difficult to say what is impossible, for the dream of yesterday is the hope of today and the reality of tomorrow.
    Rabul MashriqaiN wal MaghribaiN

    Comment


      #3
      But what happens if there are no witnesses against that person B, which according to the DNA test is the culprit?

      Would the requirement for 4 witnesses be abolished and DNA test will equal 4 witnesses?
      I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
      - Robert McCloskey

      Comment


        #4
        Ijtehad is the answer.

        Comment


          #5
          I think so; since I firmly believe DNA has a slimer chance of being wrong as opposed to witnesses. They'd have to witness the crime which I doubt they have otherwise they would have stopped the atrocity. And in criminal psychology what a witness (or 4)hears each time they mould their story into that convincing themselves thats what happened which they appeal in court. It doesn't sit right.

          DNA all the way

          ------------------
          Jitna Diya Sarkar Nay Mujko, Itni Meri Auqat Nahi, Yeh Saab Tumhara Karam Hai Aqa, Mujh Mein Aisi Koi Baat Nahin.


          It is difficult to say what is impossible, for the dream of yesterday is the hope of today and the reality of tomorrow.
          Rabul MashriqaiN wal MaghribaiN

          Comment


            #6
            Solution may be four competent witnesses that the DNA test was carried out fairly and correctly?
            Muslims are so good at dividing that they can divide the atom. If you see two Muslims, probably they belong to 3 parties.
            Al-Ghazali

            Comment


              #7
              How about 4 DNA tests from 4 different labs? That sure beats the ideasfrom people who cannot think beyond 4 witnesses!

              PS: Does this discussion indicate that man has outgrown Quranic recommendations? (at least in this context?)

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by kumarakn:
                PS: Does this discussion indicate that man has outgrown Quranic recommendations? (at least in this context?)
                Witness: person or something whose existance etc. attests or proves something.
                (The Little Oxford Dictionary - Seventh Edition)

                So DNA is a thing that could stand witness to a rape. I think mad scientists solution will work well. or even yours, 4 DNA tests from four labs, its only a matter of assuring fairplay.


                [This message has been edited by sadeyes_neverlie (edited April 21, 2002).]

                Comment


                  #9
                  Before I put forward my thoughts let me ask another question.

                  How about videotape as a proof of adultery? Would that be considered equal to the testimony of 4 competent witnesses?
                  I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
                  - Robert McCloskey

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by ahmadjee:
                    Before I put forward my thoughts let me ask another question.

                    How about videotape as a proof of adultery? Would that be considered equal to the testimony of 4 competent witnesses?
                    Videotape? Yes, that would be proof of adultery, but who on earth would just happen to have a camcorder to record such things? Not to mention, would you really be willing to film this activity and report it, to whoever you would report it to, knowing what would happen to the people involved?

                    Also even though DNA is a good test to see "who has been where", it can not tell the difference between a woman who has been raped and a woman that has commited adultry.

                    I do not believe in adultry or other sex outside of marriage, but I think putting such matters before a court system, just leaves too much room for abuse. Especially in countries were men have a lot more rights than women. I think we have all heared of the cases, were women are raped, and somehow it ends up being her fault.

                    Just a thought but perhaps, this is something that should just be left for the family to decide. If an man or woman has strayed, why make a huge public issue of it, just causing everyone concerned more pain and embarrasment. I could not imagine screaming from the roof tops, that the person I was married to had cheated on me. I would want to keep it private, and if possible just work it out between the two of us.

                    Yes, I know that there are laws in almost every religion that state various degrees of punishment, for these "crimes", but somehow I don't think God would be too upset, if instead a husband and wife worked it out in a loving and happy way, and were able to save their family.

                    I still say God, expected humans to use their brains, common sense,
                    and compassion.

                    Brenda

                    ------------------
                    Hope for the best, prepare for the worst!!!



                    [This message has been edited by bcsm57 (edited April 23, 2002).]

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Brenda,

                      Wait for my comments & you will be surprised as how much the Islamic teachings and your thoughts are along the same lines!

                      So where are the Maulanas with their fatwas?

                      [This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited April 23, 2002).]
                      I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
                      - Robert McCloskey

                      Comment


                        #12
                        No fatwas Ahmadjee, but again to be a good Muslim and to follow it correctly as u said, one should abide by Allah's command. I know Brenda what u mean by the "crimes" but why a person do it when he knows that, if he does this there is this penalty, and why does Allah wants 4 witness which is almost impossible so that when u know that this is the penalty which is severe, the fear of Allah will stop u from commiting this act and u wouldnt even go that far to actually comitting it. Think about it.

                        [This message has been edited by reza khan (edited April 23, 2002).]

                        Comment


                          #13
                          If the 4 ppl are saying true then the DNA will give the same results as wht they say.
                          This is a prof of that Allah knows all.. it is time when we Muslims have left many Islamic things.. and speaking truth is one of them.. people take money and lie and stuff.. so Allah gave us this discovery of reading DNA so we could find out the truth still.. before when people use to be Islamic and always spoke truth then it use to work now people are changing but still to justice to be done. And Allah gives justice and Allah gives us ways of giving justice..
                          wht do ya all think?

                          ------------------
                          "Only for Allah and to gain His pleasure"
                          "You are either slave to what made man or u are slave to what man made"

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by ahmadjee:
                            Brenda,

                            Wait for my comments & you will be surprised as how much the Islamic teachings and your thoughts are along the same lines!

                            (edited April 23, 2002).]
                            Cool, I will be back to read your comments, as I am very open minded on the subject of religion. I must add, that I appreciate everyone being so patient with all of my questions and ramblings. Thank you.

                            Brenda

                            ------------------
                            Hope for the best, prepare for the worst!!!

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by reza khan:
                              I know Brenda what u mean by the "crimes" but why a person do it when he knows that, if he does this there is this penalty, and why does Allah wants 4 witness which is almost impossible so that when u know that this is the penalty which is severe, the fear of Allah will stop u from commiting this act and u wouldnt even go that far to actually comitting it. Think about it.

                              [This message has been edited by reza khan (edited April 23, 2002).][/B]
                              I do understand what you are saying, and I always respect your thoughts on all subjects, but why do people do things, even though they are wrong and they know that there will be severe penalities? I think the answer is very simple, because human kind is weak. No excuse but that is the reason. As to why does Allah want 4 witness, how could I possibly answer that question?

                              Now my own feelings on the subject of adultery and sex outside of marriage. I don't think there really is any reason for a person to do this. I have never understood this sort of behaviour and I never will. God gave us the ability to think and reason, and not to act as the animals do.

                              I have had many people in my life tell me that I am a prude because of the way I feel about certain issues. I rarely watch tv, because of the content of the shows(Certain things were just meant to be private, between a husband and a wife. Some of the things that flash across the tv screen, just make my skin crawl),Movies!!! I haven't been to a movie in 20 years.(The ones made for adults are just to sleezy, and I am past the stage of life, where I want to watch smurfs, or whinnie the pooh, so I just don't go), I hate the so called "adult" entertainment industry, I do not believe in the idea of married people having friends of the opposite sex(Just leads to, too many problems.Even with singles, too much casual contact can lead to problems.), I never have and never will understand why people use drugs, or get drunk(when you don't have your wits about you, you are much more likely to do something wrong), in many ways I think it was better when the wife stayed at home and cared for the family, while the husband went out and earned the living(Children felt more safe,secure, and had more guidence and it made them better people), I hate the fact that our government, in it's great wisdom, allows women to kill their unborn children because they just don't want a child or perhaps it will interfer with their career. I could list a lot of other things, but I think you get the idea.

                              Trust me, it isn't easy being me in the culture I grew up in.

                              I could not act in this manner, because even if no other human on Earth ever knew about it, God would know, and I would be too ashamed. When you go against the laws of God, it is like you are spitting in his face, and like you have let him down, and he is the one that gave me my life. Who am I to disappoint God?

                              But could I stone someone to death or whip them one time, much less a hundred, I don't think I could. I feel guilty if I kill a bug, so how could I possibly kill another human?

                              Brenda

                              ------------------
                              Hope for the best, prepare for the worst!!!

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