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    Abrogation in the Quran


    Salaam

    What does it mean when people say that such and such verse is abrogated by a later one? Is there a consensus of opinion as to which verses are abrogated? Does it mean that these verses can be ignored?

    (I would appreciate it if people keep to the topic)
    "A woman has got to be able to say, and not feel guilty, 'Who am I, and what do I want out of life?' She mustn't feel selfish and neurotic if she wants goals of her own, outside of husband and children"

    #2
    There is no consensus on the number of ayahs or the ayahs themselves. Everybody presents different ayahs and mostly they donot match. I didnt find any ayah or hadith which says that an ayah could be abrogated. All of Quran was revealed to Mohammad SAW but he never said that any particular ayah is abrogated by a new one. How could anyone else can then say that a particular ayah is abbrogated.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by aishaA:

      Salaam

      What does it mean when people say that such and such verse is abrogated by a later one? Is there a consensus of opinion as to which verses are abrogated? Does it mean that these verses can be ignored?
      Ibrahim ? Sentinel ? It's an interesting question.

      What i understand is that, in the very beginning Muslims didn't have an "Islamic Society" where the Shari'a laws could be implemented in entirety.

      For example, somewhere in the Qur'an, Allah had said that the punishment for an adulteress is to confine her to her house( or room , can't rmbr), until Allah gives a different commandment. (not the exact words).

      Later on ,the punishment for an adulterer and an adulteress was specified as 100 whips.

      Hope this helped.

      Comment


        #4
        When a verse is said to have been abbrogated by another verse it means that the new verse was revealed after the previous one and annuls it, in the same context. For example the verse regarding praying in a drunken state not being allowed was later 'abbrogated' by the verse that banned the use of alcohol. When this verse was revealed the sahaabah spit the alcohol from their mouths and threw all the alcohol that they had, knowing that the previous verse did not stand.

        Comment


          #5
          NONE of the verses of the Qur'an are abrogated. This is not a Book that contradicts its self.

          [an-Nisa' 4:82] Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy

          PakistaniAbroad: However some misguided people who have failed to ponder over Allah's verses declare the verses abroagted for a lack of their own understanding.

          ------------------
          So it shall be written, so it shall be done
          JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by aishaA:
            Salaam

            What does it mean when people say that such and such verse is abrogated by a later one? Is there a consensus of opinion as to which verses are abrogated? Does it mean that these verses can be ignored?

            (I would appreciate it if people keep to the topic)
            You have chosen a very controversial topic which is guaranteed to get hot & sticky.

            The 23 years of revealation were rather full of confusion and gradually details are coming out and it does not paint a good picture. Let's say, it questions the very Divine nature of the quran but then the Abbasids never considered it divine rather CREATED.

            Here's some quotes to get this party started:

            `Abdullah b. Mas`ud reported that the Prophet had taught him to recite a particular Qur'an verse which he learned by heart and copied out in his personal mushaf. When night came, and `Abdullah rose to pray, he desired to recite that aya but could not recall a syllable.

            In the morning he consulted his mushaf, only to find the page blank! He mentioned this to the Prophet who told him that that verse had been withdrawn that very night.(p. 133, 199; Abu Bakr `Abdullah b. abi Da'ud, "K. al Masahif", ed. A. Jeffery, Cairo)

            `Abdullah b. `Umar reportedly said, 'Let none of you say, "I have got the whole of the Qur'an." How does he know what all of it is? Much of the Qur'an has gone [d h b]. Let him say instead, "I have got what has
            survived."'
            (p. 117, Jalal al Din `Abdul Rahman b. abi Bakr al Suyuti,"al Itqan fi `ulum al Qur'an", Halabi, Cairo, 1935/1354, pt 2, p. 25)

            The Messenger of God heard a man recite by night and said, "May God have mercy on that man! He has just reminded me of a verse so-and-so and I had forgotten from sura such-and-such." ' (p. 129, Bukhari, "K.
            Fad'il al Qur'an", bab nisyan al Qur'an)

            The Prophet recited the Qur'an and omitted an aya. When he had finished the prayer, he asked, 'Is Ubayy in the mosque?' 'Here I am, Messenger of God.'

            'Then why didn't you prompt me?'
            'I thought the aya had been withdrawn.'
            'It hasn't been withdrawn, I forgot it.'


            (p. 65-66, `Abdul Rahman al Tha`alibi, "al Jawahir al Hisan fi tafsir al Qur'an", 2 vols.,Algiers, 1905, vol. 1, p. 95)

            Comment


              #7
              Can the apparent discrepancies be due to the context in which they appear?
              "A woman has got to be able to say, and not feel guilty, 'Who am I, and what do I want out of life?' She mustn't feel selfish and neurotic if she wants goals of her own, outside of husband and children"

              Comment


                #8
                per Aisha:
                Can the apparent discrepancies be due to the context in which they appear
                You will have to elaborate 'the context' that you refer to. The Quran is clear that it will protect from any descepancies and there is the sura 4:82 quoted by PA discussed below.

                per PA:
                [an-Nisa' 4:82] Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy
                Religion and belief in God/Allah is a matter of conviction & faith. Nothing matters or should matter to a believer in his/her belief re: Divine revealation.

                However, in my opinion there are many contradictions & absurdities and repetitions in the book, some examples:

                CONTRADICTIONS
                There is no compulsion in religion.
                Islam is a religion of peace.
                Allah is Rahman & Rahim.

                ABSURDITIES
                It description of the earth, sun, star, sky and the celestial universe.

                REPETITIONS
                The multitude of times it talks about the earth and its shape (flat).

                The book claim it is a complete book when clearly it is not. At best it is a foundation to built upon.

                Just my opinion.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by faceup:

                  CONTRADICTIONS
                  ABSURDITIES
                  REPETITIONS

                  The book claim it is a complete book when clearly it is not. At best it is a foundation to built upon.
                  Where'd you get this from ? Khomeini and Co. ?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Ibrahim says: Salaams to all

                    I believe brothers Khoon-e-Shaheed and Mushi had given the correct understanding as to the word abrogation (or upgraded version to be adopted as the final form) as used in scriptures

                    As already mentioned by them:

                    Brother Khoon-e-Shaheed: in the very beginning Muslims didn't have an "Islamic Society" where the Shari'a laws could be implemented in entirety.


                    Brother Mushi: When a verse is said to have been abrogated by another verse it means that the new verse was revealed after the previous one and annuls it, in the same context
                    Ibrahim says: One reason for this is due to our ability to absorb such laws and adhere to them without difficulties or shear fear, which may cause us to break away from Islam all together because of such restrictions as is the case of the unbelievers.

                    Hence laws had to be gradually introduced according to the times and ability to accept and fulfill them. This is normal case even in our current societies where a period of grace is given before full implementation of an approved law .


                    This was the reason, even Christ seems to have said

                    John 16: 12. "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.

                    13. But when he, the Spirit of truth , comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

                    Ibrahim says: And that took another 600 years before man was mature enough to accept the truth.

                    Now coming back to the Qur.an which declares ....


                    2: 106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar; knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?

                    Ibrahim says: Hence it should be clear that what ever abrogation found in scriptures are totally meant for improvement and fine tuning of our behaviors .


                    While the basic principles of Allah's Law remain the same, its form, expression, and application have varied from time to time, e.g., from Prophets Musa to Eesa (Jesus), and from Eesa(Jesus) to Muhammad (peace be upon them all ) . It is one of the beneficent mercies of Allah that we should forget some things of the past and adopt what is best suited to develop our iman, lest our minds become confused and our development is retarded.


                    It means that God's Message from age to age is always the same, but that its form may differ according to the needs and exigencies of the time. There is nothing derogatory in this if we believe in progressive revelation and progressive growth of mankind.

                    Let us look at another verse/subject to understand this better ( some other details have already been given by brothers earlier)


                    Let us read..


                    33:6 The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves and his wives are their mothers. Blood-relations among each other have closer personal ties in the Decree of Allah than (the Brotherhood of) Believers and Muhajirs: nevertheless do ye what is just to your closest friends: such is the writing in the Decree (of Allah)

                    again

                    8: 75 And those who accept faith subsequently and adopt exile and fight for the faith in your company they are of you. But kindred by blood have prior rights against each other in the Book of Allah. Verily Allah is well acquainted with all things

                    4: 33 To (benefit) everyone We have appointed sharers and heirs to property left by parents and relatives. To those also to whom your right hand was pledged give their due portion: for truly Allah is Witness to all things.

                    Commentary by Yusof Ali:

                    When the emigration took place from Makkah to Madinah, bonds and links of brotherhood were established between the Emigrants and the Helpers, and they shared in each other's inheritance. Later, when the Community was solidly established, and relations with those left behind in Makkah were resumed, the rights of blood-relations in Makkah, and the Helper-brethren in Madinah were both safeguarded. This is the particular meaning. The more general meaning is similar; respect your ties of blood, of neighbourhood, and of friendly compacts and understandings. Be just to all.


                    Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 8.739 Narrated by Ibn Abbas


                    Regarding the Holy Verse: "And to everyone, We have appointed heirs..." (4.33) And: "To those also to Whom your right hands have pledged." (4.33)

                    When the emigrants came to Medina, the Ansar used to be the heir of the emigrants (and vice versa) instead of their own kindred by blood (Dhawl-l-arham), and that was because of the bond of brotherhood which the Prophet had established between them, i.e. the Ansar and the emigrants. But when the Divine Verse:

                    "And to everyone We have appointed heirs," (4.33) was revealed, it cancelled the other order, i.e. "o those also, to whom Your right hands have pledged."


                    Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 3.489 Narrated by Said bin Jubair


                    Ibn Abbas said, "In the verse: 'To every one We have appointed ' (Muwaliya Muwaliya means one's) heirs (4.33).' (And regarding the verse) 'And those with whom your right hands have made a pledge.' Ibn 'Abbas said, "When the emigrants came to the Prophet in Medina, the emigrant would inherit the Ansari while the latter's relatives would not inherit him because of the bond of brotherhood which the Prophet established between them (i.e. the emigrants and the Ansar). When the verse: 'And to everyone We have appointed heirs' (4.33) was revealed, it canceled (the bond (the pledge) of brotherhood regarding inheritance)." Then he said, "The verse: To those also to whom your right hands have pledged, remained valid regarding cooperation and mutual advice, while the matter of inheritance was excluded and it became permissible to assign something in one's testament to the person who had the right of inheriting before.


                    Ibrahim says: In the early Madinah period, there was a bond of brotherhood between its inhabitants and the Muslims who migrated. This bond was the reason for mutual inheritance between them. Once the stability of Muslim Ummah was established, the law of inheritance according to blood relationship was revealed superceding the previous brotherhood relationship. That was practiced by mutual acceptance

                    Thus 33:6 and 8:75 abrogate the earlier arrangement.

                    All this abrogation, be it at the time of the earlier prophets or at the time of the Final Prophet, led to the strengthening of the Muslim ummah in a gradual manner to the stage where it was completed for good.

                    And this is what this verse confirms:.

                    5:3 Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat blood the flesh of swine and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah that which hath been killed by strangling or by a violent blow or by a headlong fall or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you completed my favor upon you and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any forced by hunger with no inclination to transgression Allah is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.

                    Allah (swt) knows best.


                    Was salaam

                    Ibrahim

                    Wisdom is an essence , it is not a thing, not an idea not even a thought

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Khoone shaihid, i heard that the punishment for zina differs for a married and unmarried person. I am not sure on this......

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by reza khan:
                        Khoone shaihid, i heard that the punishment for zina differs for a married and unmarried person. I am not sure on this......
                        True.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Classic example of ignorance and misinterpretation of Qur'an based on the fabricated Hadith Accounts.

                          Qur'an is NOT abrogated

                          Here's the verse but in proper context this time.

                          [al-Baqarah 2:105] Those who disbelieve from among the followers of the Book do not like, nor do the polytheists, that the good should be sent down to you from your Lord, and Allah chooses especially whom He pleases for His mercy, and Allah is the Lord of mighty grace.

                          PakistaniAbroad: Allah is talking about khairin being sent down to the Muslims and that the Jews, Christians and Mushrikeen are disliking it.

                          Think about it for a minute.. what good was being bestowed to the Muslims??

                          The Qur'an

                          Allah's revelations. His Verses. The Book.

                          It pained the Jews, Christians and Polytheists alike to see Allahs Final Testament being revealed to Muslims AND their scriptures being superceded

                          Note the use of the word

                          ayatin

                          in 2:106. It's NOT necessarily Qur'anic verses but the correct translation is revelation

                          Let's see where else ayat has been used:

                          [al-Baqarah 2:61] And when you said: O Musa! we cannot bear with one food, therefore pray Lord on our behalf to bring forth for us out of what the earth grows, of its herbs and its cucumbers and its garlic and its lentils and its onions. He said: Will you exchange that which is better for that which is worse? Enter a city, so you will have what you ask for. And abasement and humiliation were brought down upon them, and they became deserving of Allah's wrath; this was so because they disbelieved in the communications of Allah (ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﺖﻳﺎﺑ ) and killed the prophets unjustly; this was so because they disobeyed and exceeded the limits

                          [Al-Imran 3:112] Abasement is made to cleave to them wherever they are found, except under a covenant with Allah and a covenant with men, and they have become deserving of wrath from Allah, and humiliation is made to cleave to them; this is because they disbelieved in the communications of Allah (ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﺖﻳﺎﺑ ) and slew the prophets unjustly; this is because they disobeyed and exceeded the limits.

                          PakistaniAbroad: Crystal clear now that ﺖﻳﺁ is not just Qur'anic verses but Allah's revelations on a whole.

                          Now let's study 2:106 to understand the correct meaning.

                          [al-Baqarah 2:106] Whatever communications ayatin We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?

                          PakistaniAbroad: Only now does it become clear that the communication being abrogated or caused to be forgotten are what the Jews and Christians had with them, which is why they dislike the good being given to the Muslims.

                          Qur'anic verses are not caused to be forgotten. We know all of them. People who claim that ayatin refers to Qur'anic verses are actually alleging that some verses of the Qur'an were forgotten!

                          Rather than place the verse in context and understand it correctly, the so called 'scholars' will prefer to declare the Qur'an has contradictions.

                          The verses are clear now. You decide.

                          -----------------------------------------
                          So it shall be written, so it shall be done

                          [This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited April 18, 2002).]
                          JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

                          Comment


                            #14
                            PakistaniAbroad:
                            being abrogated or caused to be forgotten are what the Jews and Christians had with them, which is why they dislike the good being given to the Muslims.
                            Qur'anic verses are not caused to be forgotten. We know all of them. People who claim that ayatin refers to Qur'anic verses are actually alleging that some verses of the Qur'an were forgotten!
                            Rather than place the verse in context and understand it correctly, the so called 'scholars' will prefer to declare the Qur'an has contradictions.
                            Ibrahim says: salaams to all

                            PA , the devils advocate! can you tell me where in this thread had anyone claimed the Qur.an had been abrogated or verses of the Qur.an have been forgotten?

                            Thanks , PA it never seizes to amaze me , how you can repeatedly make a fool of yourself.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              per Ibrahim:
                              [2:106]None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar;
                              I was talking about contraditions in Quran in my previous post and here is another. It says "none of our revelations do we abrogate but we replace it with something better."

                              Allah - maybe, doesn't know what He is revealing with all the replacements going on or went on!

                              So, what happens to the revelations that is "being replaced with something better". If it is not ABORTED then what?
                              It stays in the same quran?
                              Thus the reason for such contradictions with one verse saying something and the other verse contradicting it.

                              per Ibrahaim:
                              Thanks , PA it never seizes to amaze me , how you can repeatedly make a fool of yourself.
                              Everyone who disagrees with you is a fool in which case I would gladly be a fool.

                              PA is referring to the subject matters of abrogations within quran and not the whole quran; but, the way most ummah behaves and what it preaches - it would be better if the whole thing(the holy book) were ABORTED.

                              Comment

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