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The Verse on Polygamy.. an Inquiry

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    The Verse on Polygamy.. an Inquiry

    Please study the following verse carefully, It's the verse that is the cornerstone of a 'permission' for polygamy in Islam.

    An-Nisa 4:3




    Yusufali

    If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly, then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.


    PakistaniAbroad: You can study the translation of meaning by the author of your choice.

    My question is:

    What in your personal understanding of this verse could be the 'logic' or 'hikmat' behind the 'permission' for polygamy?

    Please no cut and pastes!

    I am very well aware of the Tafseers and the rest, however other Qur'anic verses to illustrate your points are welcome.

    I wish to know what do YOU understand and how are YOU able to reconcile it within your own mind.. for say your brother in law marrying again with religious permission while he's still married to your sister.

    Thanks for all the honest responses.

    ------------------
    There is No Spoon
    JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

    #2
    once propphet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said that if a man has two wives and he don'treat them jutly and fairly than at the of judgement he will have half of his body. meaning that if you can't treat them fairly than dont do it...

    Comment


      #3
      Ibrahim says: salaams to all


      Islam is as simple religion and easy to understand when one contemplates and observes the natural behaviors of mankind.

      I assume My dear Pakistani from aboard is trying to imply that polygamy was only approved in the case of orphans or something to that effect. ( correct me if I am wrong)

      So lets look at the hadith with regards to this verse. ( which as always may not be to the liking of PA , oh well)

      Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 7.35 Narrated by Aisha


      (regarding) the Verse: "And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans..." (4.3) It is about the orphan girl who is in the custody of a man who is her guardian, and he intends to marry her because of her wealth, but he treats her badly and does not manage her property fairly and honestly. Such a man should marry women of his liking other than her, two or three or four. "Prohibited to you (for marriage) are: ...your foster-mothers (who suckled you)." (4.23) Marriage is prohibited between persons having a foster suckling relationship corresponding to a blood relationship which renders marriage unlawful.

      lets read this verse again………

      4: 3 If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans marry women of your choice two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them) then only one or (a captive) that your right hands possess. That will be more suitable to prevent you from doing injustice.

      Commentary by Yusof Ali :

      508 Notice the conditional clause about orphans, introducing the rules about marriage. This reminds us of the immediate occasion of the promulgation of this verse. It was after Uhud, when the Muslim community was left with many orphans and widows and some captives of war. Their treatment was to be governed by principles of the greatest humanity and equity. The occasion is past, but the principles remain. Marry the orphans if you are quite sure that you will in that way protect their interests and their property, with perfect justice to them and to your own dependents if you have any. If not, make other arrangements for the orphans. (4.3)

      539 As the woman in marriage surrenders her person, so the man also must surrender at least some of his property according to his means. And this gives rise to the law of Dower. A minimum dower is prescribed, but it is not necessary to stick to the minimum, and in the new relationship created, the parties are recommended to act towards each other with the greatest confidence and liberality. (4.3)


      4: 23 Prohibited to you (for marriage) are: your mother daughters sisters father's sisters mother's sisters; brother's daughters sister's daughters foster-mothers (who gave you suck) foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship born of your wives to whom ye have gone in no prohibition if ye have not gone in; (those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time except for what is past; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.

      In addition lets look at the following conduct which was approved for the Prophet {pbuh) ………..



      33: 50 O prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts who migrated (from Mecca) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her this only for thee and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess in order that there should be no difficulty for Thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.

      33: 52 It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after this nor to change them for (other) wives even though their beauty attract thee except any thy right hand should possess (as handmaidens): and Allah doth watch over all things.

      Commentary by Yusof Ali:
      This was revealed in A.H. 7. After that the Prophet did not marry again, except the handmaiden Mary the Copt, who was sent as a present by the Christian Muqauqas of Egypt. She became the mother of Ibrahim, who died in his infancy.

      In addition, Most prophets as recorded in the Bible and Veda have practiced polygyny and this approval of four being the maximum number of wives a believer ( Brahmin) is approved to wed has been recorded in

      "Now a Brahmin may take four wives in the direct order of the (four) castes." -- Visnusmrti 24:1.


      Was salaam
      Ibrahim

      There is no poverty worse then ignorance and no wealth more useful than reason

      Comment


        #4
        Mr. Ibrahim,

        You obviously don't read or when u read, you do not comprehend.

        Let me state again:

        Please no cut and pastes!

        Can you give me a summary of your OWN understanding please??

        Thank You.

        ------------------
        There is No Spoon
        JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
          Ibrahim says :salaams to all,

          PA dear, If quoting the Qur'an, hadith and commentary for them is not to your liking (cut and paste) , sorry, cannot help you. I had already given my summary on my earlier post, it takes some thought, give it try insha Allah if Allah willed you will be able to understand them.


          Was salaam
          Ibrahim

          Comment


            #6
            Fair enough.

            I take it that you have nothing more to say of your own than to regurgitate the already known popular take on the issue.

            Let's accept your argument that this verse is talking about marrying other women, two, three or four.

            Read this:
            an-Noor 24:32

            Shakir

            And marry those among you who are single (ayama) and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves; if they are needy, Allah will make them free from want out of His grace; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.

            Yusufali

            Marry those among you who are single (ayama), or the virtuous ones among yourselves, male or female: if they are in poverty, Allah will give them means out of His grace: for Allah encompasseth all, and he knoweth all things.

            PakistaniAbroad: The verse talks about "male or female" which confirms that the audience is believing men AND women.

            Now can anyone tell me how a blieving woman can be someones second or third or fourth wife without going against the Qur'anic principle laid down for marriage with singles ONLY??

            A woman who marries an already married man is not marrying a single guy.

            ------------------
            There is No Spoon
            JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

            Comment


              #7
              PakistaniAbroad: The verse talks about "male or female" which confirms that the audience is believing men AND women.
              Now can anyone tell me how a blieving woman can be someones second or third or fourth wife without going against the Qur'anic principle laid down for marriage with singles ONLY??
              Ibrahim says; Salaams to all

              LOL, (sorry PA, your nit picking habit always seems to get you into problems) man you are indeed from abroad and thank God you have realized that you are “the devils advocate”

              Without trying to fry your brains any further, let me just quote the verse again and again from other translators of the Qur’an ( which is readily available in the market) , per chance you can understand that this verse is a command for mankind to marry and not remain single or celibate and not be overcome by fear of sufficiency in wealth. Verse 33 further guides mankind, as for those who completely lack finances to even arrange a marriage to hold chaste till Allah (swt) provides for them


              Let me re quote [24:32]

              Noble Qur’an:

              And marry those among you who are single (i.e. a man who has no wife and the women who has no husband) and (also marry) the Salihun (pious, fit, and capable ones) of your (male) slaves and maid servants (female slaves). If they be poor, Allah will enrich them out of his Bounty. And Allah is all sufficient for his creatures needs, All knowing (about the state of the people).

              PICKTHAL:

              And marry such of you as are solitary and the pious of your slaves and maid-servants. If they be poor, Allah will enrich them of His bounty. Allah is of ample means, Aware.

              T.B Irving:

              Marry off any single persons among you, as well as your honorable servants and maids. If they are poor , God will enrich them from His bounty. Allah is boundless Aware

              YUSUFALI:

              Marry those among you who are single , or the virtuous ones among yourselves, male or female: if they are in poverty, Allah will give them means out of His grace: for Allah encompasseth all, and he knoweth all things.


              SHAKIR:

              And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves; if they are needy, Allah will make them free from want out of His grace; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.



              I need not say more for people who can think.


              Was salaam
              Ibrahim


              even the most perfect being cannot escape the perfect consistency of God’s laws

              Comment


                #8


                just look at you Mr. Ibrahim.. Didn't I already post two of the accepted translations which you requoted??

                Isn't the commandment clear to you.

                "MARRY THOSE WHO ARE SINGLE...."

                How on earth is a woman to stay within it if she marries an already married man. Simple answer is what i'm looking for.. don't play the usual apologetic-mainstream-muslim dodgeball.

                I admire your fascination of my screen name, guppie face and custom title etc. but it's time you quit that tendency of cut and pastes and started posting something substantial approaching an intellectual argument.

                Now a straight answer; IF you have even begun to comprehend what we're talking about here, would be highly appreciated so I can move to the next clue to the puzzle.

                Thank You.

                ------------------
                There is No Spoon
                JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

                Comment


                  #9
                  Ibrahim says : Salaams to all

                  O dear. I guess I have to repeat my self again for PA, who seems to be searching for puzzles in the Qur’an and failing to understand the Qur’an has been present for 1423 years and the prophet (pbuh) to whom it was entrusted to, had no problems as to what it conveys and so do the believers who had practiced what the Prophet (pbuh) taught all these years.

                  I re quote what I said again………..

                  this verse is a command for mankind to marry and not remain single or celibate and not be overcome by fear of sufficiency in wealth. Verse 33 further guides mankind, as for those who completely lack finances to even arrange a marriage to hold chaste till Allah (swt) provides for them


                  What “ And Marry those who are single amongst you ” will mean is that, a parent or a guardian who has “teens or any one not in the bond of wedlock, whether unmarried or lawfully divorced, or widowed.” under their care or in their community or a master of slaves and maid servants should do all that is possible to ensure single unmarried people or widows, divorcees and slaves under their care do not remain single but find suitable spouses for them selves. MEANING GET THEM MARRIED and let them not practice celibacy out of fear or due to being bonded. They need not worry about insufficiency in wealth for Allah (swt) is the provider.

                  The beauty of this verse is that it commands the Muslims to ensure that even pious, fit and capable persons who are slaves and maid servants under their care should not be kept as celibates but be allowed to have married life’s.

                  Verse 33 further implies that, if at any event they ( single unmarried man) have insufficient funds even to pay the dower they should KEEP CHASTE until Allah (swt) will provide for them and not engage in temporary marriages or secret affairs. Further more, if the slave seeks for manumission , the owner MUST allow it and even go so far as to provide for him/her from what had been given to the master.

                  Hope that helps, if it does not, seek help from Allah (swt) He alone knows best.

                  Was salaam
                  Ibrahim

                  wisdom is an essence; it is not a thing. Not an idea, not even a thought!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    ibrahim who are the slaves as mentioned
                    in your post? who can be considred
                    slaves?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Thank You Mr. Ibrahim...see it wasn't that hard.. to use your own words for a change.

                      Now then if I udnerstand it correctly this verse is about marrying off people and not marrying them yourself?

                      Am I correct in understanding your post??

                      Here's the verse again

                      an-Nur 24:32



                      Would you agree that the T. B. Irving translation of meaning, that you have so graciously quoted for us, clarifies it the best by translating ankihu as marry off

                      T.B Irving:

                      Marry off ankihu any single persons among you, as well as your honorable servants and maids. If they are poor , God will enrich them from His bounty. Allah is boundless Aware
                      PakistaniAbroad: So this is all about believing men and women who are Parents or Guardians of these single among us (includes widows and widowers too) and also of the honorable male and female servants (rvizk, if you can wait sir, I intend to tackle your question too within the context of this verse and 4:3.. inshallah) marrying off these people.

                      I say YES Mr. Ibrahim.. I AGREE!!

                      It's also consistent with the use of the similar form of the word in this verse:

                      al-Qasas 28:27



                      Shakir

                      He said: I desire to marry one of these two daughters of mine to you on condition that you should serve me for eight years; but if you complete ten, it will be of your own free will, and I do not wish to be hard to you; if Allah please, you will find me one of the good.


                      PakistaniAbroad: The word translated as marry - to you is unkihaka, and is used in the context of marrying off daughters and not marrying them himself!

                      Incidently, 4:3, 24:32 and 28:27 are the three times this form of the word is used in Qur'an, and we've now studied them all.

                      Can you spot the odd one out??

                      P.S. Mr. Ibrahim, what may seem like 'nit picking' and a 'search for puzzles' to you may actually be the 'pondering' and the search for answers to remove contradictions in understanding caused by the enemies of Islam by their writing and compiling post Qur'anic texts forcing generations to misinterpret Allah's message.

                      Discussing and understanding Qur'an sure beats mud slinging Jews, Christians and Indians that goes on in this forum.

                      Allah commands us in the same Surah:

                      [an-Nisa' 4:82] Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein many contradictions

                      [This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited March 31, 2002).]
                      JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Let's now move to the next clue in the puzzle, a topic explained in detail in the Qur'an,

                        Inheritance

                        [an-Nisa' 4:33] And to every one We have appointed heirs of what parents and near relatives leave; and as to those with whom your rights hands have ratified agreements, give them their portion; surely Allah is a witness over all things.

                        PakistaniAbroad: So we're told by the Qur'an that all matters of inheritance will be found in the verses revealed.

                        Now IF as alleged by mainstream Muslims, the Qur'an has sanctioned polygamy, then surely there'll be a precise and clear inheritance law for them too!

                        Let's Read the law for inheritance for wives.

                        [an-Nisa' 4:11] Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and (only) his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the sixth after (the payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah: Surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

                        [an-Nisa' 4:12] And you shall have half of what your wives leave if they have no child, but if they have a child, then you shall have a fourth of what they leave after (payment of) any bequest they may have bequeathed or a debt; and they shall have the fourth of what you leave if you have no child, but if you have a child then they shall have the eighth of what you leave after (payment of) a bequest you may have bequeathed or a debt; and if a man or a woman leaves property to be inherited by neither parents nor offspring, and he (or she) has a brother or a sister, then each of them two shall have the sixth, but if they are more than that, they shall be sharers in the third after (payment of) any bequest that may have been bequeathed or a debt that does not harm (others); this is an ordinance from Allah: and Allah is Knowing, Forbearing.

                        PakistaniAbroad: Look how Allah has elaborated all cases of having more than two offsprings and/or siblings and explained in detail the law of inheritance for such a case.

                        Where in the Qur'an may I ask the 'mainstream Muslims' are the detailed inheritance instructions for wife number two, three and four???

                        [This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited April 01, 2002).]
                        JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

                        Comment


                          #13
                          PakistaniAbroad, Interesting discussion, i'm learning a lot. I just have one question- and by the way i'm not questioning your intentions here- are you trying to prove something? something like how polygamy should be disallowed? If so, I think it is very clearly allowed in 4:3 as you've stated above. If I've judged your intention wrong, I'm sorry, please carry on.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
                            P.S. Mr. Ibrahim, what may seem like 'nit picking' and a 'search for puzzles' to you may actually be the 'pondering' and the search for answers to remove contradictions in understanding caused by the enemies of Islam by their writing and compiling post Qur'anic texts forcing generations to misinterpret Allah's message.
                            PakistaniAbroad,

                            Might i ask where you received your understanding of the verse in question?

                            ----------------
                            "No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Ace:
                              are you trying to prove something? something like how polygamy should be disallowed? If so, I think it is very clearly allowed in 4:3 as you've stated above.
                              Ace, thanks for your interest. I'm trying to work with everone here to better understand the meaning of the Qur'anic verse 4:3. Obviously i disagree a bit with the traditional translation which is used as a defence for practicing Polygamy. We are on our way to tackling the verse itself after laying some groundwork.. stay tuned.

                              Originall posted by Hasnain
                              PakistaniAbroad,

                              Might i ask where you received your understanding of the verse in question?
                              I was dissatisfied with the available translations.. so I took it upon myself to research it with the help and guidance of some like minded individuals.

                              ------------------
                              There is No Spoon
                              JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

                              Comment

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