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**mushi** · Apr 15, 2002, 09:49 AM

Define the term Molvi and define the term corrupt. Not all scholars are corrupt.

**Faraz Mir** · Apr 15, 2002, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by mushi:
Define the term Molvi and define the term corrupt. Not all scholars are corrupt.

Define define define...that seems to be the only defence among extremists today. Why don't you also ask Flamezz to define the terms Islam, Quran, Allah, Muslims as well?

Allah nay hum sub aik damagh or tohori si akal di hai. Kabi to istamal kar lo meray bhai!

[This message has been edited by Faraz Mir (edited April 15, 2002).]

**mAd_ScIeNtIsT** · Apr 15, 2002, 07:30 PM

Back in the 1930s, Maulana Maududi was very critical of some very hard-line ulema, who he wrote were driving Muslims away from Islam. He was particularly critical of those who maintained that the Gates of Ijtihad were closed, and therefore made it near-impossible to equate modernisation with Islam.

As an example, he mentioned Turkey. He blamed the rise of secularism in Turkey not on the West, but rather the ulema of the Ottoman Empire, who vehemently opposed any kind of significant change in the way things were done.

As an example, when the Khalif tried to modernise education to make the study of mathematics, science and engineering compulsory, to enable the Khilafat to compete against the Western powers, it was the Ulema who opposed him.

When he tried to reorganise the army along the more efficient western model, for example by introducing uniforms, the ulema opposed him for "making the army look like kafirs". When he tried to introduce bayonets, the ulema opposed him for "trying to make the army use weapons distinctive of kafirs".

Maududi pointed out that many of the ulema, who had great in depth knowledge of Islam, began to repress any sign of change in the Islamic State. Many people increasingly felt that Islam was a force that repressed people and held people back, and so drifted away.

Maududi felt that increasingly, the ulema are driving Muslims away from Islam, by making them think that Islam = living in the past. He felt that the religious education available had to be reformed to produce ulema who understood the people better and who could guide them along the Islamic path - rather than many of the ulema of today (particularly in the sub-continent) who cannot empathise with the people, gain their trust, and guide them.

**iam_bak** · Apr 15, 2002, 07:35 PM

Especailly Badhawhi,Sheihk Yusuf etc
al these fake govt scholars......more like scholars 4 hire! as long as they get dollars they will say anything

**Shehzaada** · Apr 16, 2002, 12:59 PM

Yea man tell me about it... on one side its the smely grave worshipping peers and on the other its bomb throwing fanatic mullahs with beer bellies... they both so cheap pesay ke liyay kya kuch kartay hein...

our religion has got such a bad reputation cuz of idiots like these...

why can't they just teach and practise Islam according to the Holy Quran and Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him)...

most of them are such hypocrites... khud wohi gunnah kartay hein and when sum1 else does it un par fatt kuffar ka fatwah laga detey hein...

i'm not saying all of them are like that but most i've met certainly r...

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LA ILAHA ILALLAH

**Warrior of Allah** · Apr 16, 2002, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by mushi:
Define the term Molvi and define the term corrupt. Not all scholars are corrupt.

Molvis arent scholars

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"Only for Allah and to gain His pleasure"
"You are either slave to what made man or u are slave to what man made"

**ahmadjee** · Apr 16, 2002, 01:18 PM

Mad_Scientist,

I am really curious to know where did Maududi said all the above you mentioned & what solution did he propose.

Any names of the books and where can I get a hold of them would be greatly appreciated.

Also, what was his contributions in getting the Muslims of India in particular out of the misery. Did you opened a school like Sir Syed Ahmad or did he fought for their due civil rights like many other Muslim leaders of the time.

I confess that I only know him from a few articles & his commentary of the Qura'an - which BTW I disagree with at many places.

**mAd_ScIeNtIsT** · Apr 16, 2002, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by ahmadjee:
Mad_Scientist,

I am really curious to know where did Maududi said all the above you mentioned & what solution did he propose.

Any names of the books and where can I get a hold of them would be greatly appreciated.

Also, what was his contributions in getting the Muslims of India in particular out of the misery. Did you opened a school like Sir Syed Ahmad or did he fought for their due civil rights like many other Muslim leaders of the time.

I confess that I only know him from a few articles & his commentary of the Qura'an - which BTW I disagree with at many places.

I got these views of his from a book entitled "West vs Islam", a collection of articles written by Maududi in the 1930s for the monthly journal Tarjuman-ul-Quran. The particular copy I have is bu Islamic Publications (PVT) Ltd of Lahore.

The particular ideas about ulema driving people away from Islam through not being able to empathise with them is a theme occuring in several places in the book, particularly in Chapter 7, entitled "Conflict of East and West in Turkey".

Maududi's solution to mobilise India's muslims to try and get our of their predicament was to try and educate them, both through speeches and through writings. In particular, he attempted to appeal to the educated Muslims (mainly western-style educated Muslims), who he identified as being the community's leaders.

To back this up, he founded the Jamaat-i-Islaam, to mobilise Muslims to better themselves.

Lastly, I too will say that I am not necessarily in agreement with all his views. In particular, his passionate criticism of birth control seems weak in the light of rulings issued by many other scholars. However, in identifying the political and social problems facing Muslims, and proposing remedies, I have yet to find a scholar who can match him.

[This message has been edited by mAd_ScIeNtIsT (edited April 16, 2002).]

**Warrior of Allah** · Apr 16, 2002, 01:50 PM

we talk abt molvis or muslim scholarzz bein corrupt.. we say they tell us half true stuff and half wrong.. well we can get our answrs from Quran and Sunnah if we realy care.. but wht we do is go to west and ask them for answer to our problems.. we let kufars rule us instead of Allah.. tell me is democracy .. khalefah and sheria.. no it ain.. in democracy we are slave to system that a man made not wht Allah made.. cuz
"u r either slave to wht made man or wht man made"..
so all we need to do is leave all these kufar system.. stop trusting kufars.. and stop asking them to help us.. we should estblish our own state "Khelafah" and run it with Islamic laws and be Slave to Allah.. "cuz only a creator could be rulin us"
When Islam is a complete system not just a religion.. so why don we jus follow Islam for every thing..

�And those who disbelieve are allies to one another, (and) if you (Muslims of the whole world collectively) do not do so (i.e. become allies, as one united block with one Khalifah), there will be Fitnah (wars, battles, polytheism, etc.) and oppression on earth, and a great mischief and corruption.� [TMQ Al-Anfal:73]

�O you who believe! Answer the call of Allah and His messenger to that which would give you life.� [TMQ Al-Anfal:24]

just think who gave kafirs right to make laws of their minds..

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"Only for Allah and to gain His pleasure"
"You are either slave to what made man or u are slave to what man made"

**ahmadjee** · Apr 16, 2002, 01:51 PM

>>>To back this up, he founded the Jamaat-i-Islaam, to mobilise Muslims to better themselves

Jamaat-i-Islami was founded in 1941 (please correct me if I am wrong) after the resolution of Pakistan. Before 47 he was against Jinnah and his associates and considered their fight for a separate homeland unislamic and wasn't too found of Sir Syed & co. for their efforts in enlisting Muslims to learn secular thoughts.

I am particularly interested in his views as they are the foundations of many Islamic parties in Pakistan (or so I am told & they claim) and I disagree with their ideologies.

Thank you for the mentioning of the book, I will try to look for it on the web. If I couldn't find it I will send you a PM.

**mAd_ScIeNtIsT** · Apr 16, 2002, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by ahmadjee:
>>>To back this up, he founded the Jamaat-i-Islaam, to mobilise Muslims to better themselves

Jamaat-i-Islami was founded in 1941 (please correct me if I am wrong) after the resolution of Pakistan. Before 47 he was against Jinnah and his associates and considered their fight for a separate homeland unislamic and wasn't too found of Sir Syed & co. for their efforts in enlisting Muslims to learn secular thoughts.

Yes, the JI was founded in 41, after the resolution of Pakistan. However, Maududi did not consider the Pakistan movement to be unislamic; rather he felt it to Islamically valid, but not so valid as having a confederation of Indian states, or a confederation of a muslim state and a hindu state.

A good comparison would be with prayers. It is best to do nafl & sunnut & farz prayers, if that is not possible then just sunnut & farz, and if not that, then farz. Similarly, Maududi felt that a confederation of many Indian states was best; if not that then a confederation of a muslim state and a hindu state; and only if that was not possible, then a separate muslim and hindu state. However, he also felt that is 2 separate states emerged, they should have military & economic ties.

(This commentary on Maududi's view regarding India's future apparently having been written by the secretary to the Quaid-e-Azam, Syed Sharifuddin Pirzada , in his book Evolution of Pakistan in 1963).

**Faraz Mir** · Apr 16, 2002, 04:35 PM

Maududi was a politician pretending to be a Malvi. Please don't take his books as authoritative on Islam.

**FlameZz** · Apr 16, 2002, 04:48 PM

Assalam-o-alikum..

Few definitions:

Molvi : A guy with knowledge of Quran, who has read some Quranic Tafseer, and few collections of Hadith, who can also explain the problems

Mulla : A guy who just knows the REcitiation of Al-Quran , who does Imamat in the Mosque

Maulana = A person with quite good knowledge of Quran, Fiqah, Hadith, Seerat-e-Nabwi, and Life Problems and solutions..

Now i am discussing with the Pakistani Perspective..

Molvi who are controlling the mosques individually, are corrupt in a sense that, they do not tell what are the real teachins. They spread hatered, disbeleif, give wrong fatwas, and trap the common persons who are fool enough, with very weak eiman to fall in their trap. These Molvis also use the ppl for money, and kharcha pani, in terms of zakath, chanda for madrassa etc.. These movlis do not unite,or sit with other, and have their clashes with each other. Im not saying that all molvis are corrupt, but majority is.. and this corruption is at grass root level.. Because there is no check n balance, they are doin whatever they want to do, in name of ISLAM. fooling the ppl.. and we know that sometimes the character of these molvis is also doubtful.

Mulla = these ppl are mostly in Madrassas for teaching the recitation of Al-Quran. teaches young children and helping in Hifz-e-Quran. These ppl are like parrots who do not fully understand what ISLAM is. not all Mulla aare corrupt... and they are not Dangerous as Molvis are...

Maulana : These ppl are controlling the minds and hearts of majority of ppl. they have good speaking skills, and knowledge of Quran and Hadith, and mostly they use it to convince and fool MAJORITY. THey have big organizations, with lots of ppl serving for ISLAM. huge amount of chanda is collected, from abroad in millions. they have pejaros, cars, luxury items on their disposal. They are the ppl who are responsible for major secretarian voilenc in Pakistan alongwith Molvis.

The point is The ISLAM is agaisnt Capitialization, and these ppl never say anything abt it. They just want that ppl should keep on serving them, by giving them chanda and charity, and they keep on living in luxury.

few are there, who are sincere to the Teaching of Islam, but their number are very limited, and indeed not many ppl listen to them, because the TEachings of Islam has been so much polluted by the corrupt ppl that A Muslim faces a hard time in judging who is right and who is wrong.

May Allah guide us on the right path, with direction and teachings. And we should Also consult Quran and hadith for our knowledge. because these are the only 2 sources of Knowledge abt ISLAM.

that all ppl..

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Dont think "you can" know "you can"
.::. ﷲ ﻼﺃ ﷲﺃ ﻶ .::.

**ahmadjee** · Apr 16, 2002, 04:48 PM

Islamic State - such a vast subject that a whole section maybe dedicated to it. I read some of his views quoted in different articles about the Islamic state (I need to buy his book on Islamic State) and couldn't agree with the notion of Islamic state being the only solution.

Anyway, in the same article it was also claimed that Quaid-e-Azam asked him to write the constitution of Pakistan - which I didn't quiet believe in. Is it true?

More so I believe it was some of the other Leaguers like Liaqat Ali khan who sought help from the Islamic parties (the vocal minority) as they didn't quiet get along with the others Muslim political parties at the time.

Let me do some more research and maybe I can start a new thread directed towards Maududi.

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