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Why the Difference of belief in Christianity?

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    Why the Difference of belief in Christianity?

    One thing i've always had a hard time understanding is the the christian belief about Jesus (hazrat Isa pbuh)
    One group of christains say he is the son of God (astagfarullah) and the other says jesus is God (astugfarullah). Catholics and protestant follow the same bible so could someone christian explain to me why there is this difference.



    ------------------
    "Why cross an Ocean when you can cross a River"

    #2
    Originally posted by Arshia84:
    One group of christains say he is the son of God (astagfarullah) and the other says jesus is God (astugfarullah). Catholics and protestant follow the same bible so could someone christian explain to me why there is this difference.
    Both Catholics and Protestants believe that Jesus is the Son of God and also form part of God. They don't differ on this point. There is though considerable debate as to the "godly" abilities and nature of Jesus while he was on earth.

    [This message has been edited by The Old Man (edited March 24, 2002).]

    Comment


      #3
      They believe that there are Three Persons in One God. These Three Persons - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - are distinct from one another yet they share the same Divine Nature. Thus they are not three distinct gods, but one God.

      1+1+1 = 1?????

      It's definitely confusing. I went to a Protestant (Church of England) primary school (because there was no other schools around for miles) and I remember myself questioning my teacher even as an infant about the Trinity but I never got a satisfactory answer...

      It’s a bit like the Hindu Trimurti (Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva)

      Even my Religious Studies (x christian) teacher says it's a pagan oncept adopted by early Christians.


      ------------------
      Pakistan Zindabad!

      Comment


        #4
        how do we know which one's god answers when we pray to? looks like every one's religen
        is working for them other wise all would
        have converted to one religen. if god so powerful why he should mislead people
        to several different religens?

        Comment


          #5
          To some of us Christians the Trinity is openly known as a mystery.

          God presents himself to us in three ways,

          God the almighty father, creator of heaven and Earth, of the book spoken of by the Prophets,

          Jesus his son, who was physical also a prophet and human.

          The Holy Spirit of God. Which fills us during trying moments of our lives and sees us through situations that would otherwise be extremely difficult or impossible without Gods holy and spiritual intervention or assistance.

          We can best relate to and comprehend the Human representative that God sent us (Jesus). And so we cling to him and his teachings, scratching our heads, and spending our lives marveling and struggling to understand the rest of the trinity.

          It's a mystery that we are called to spend our lives trying to grasp.

          It helps to think of this mystery and be aware of it as we struggle to discover what God is calling us to do with the life he has given us.

          The Mystery of the Trinity is more about questions then answers.

          This life long struggle with these questions are to bring us closer in our personal relationship with our Father.

          It's a Christians major and daily "Jihad" so to speak.

          [This message has been edited by MMike (edited March 24, 2002).]

          Comment


            #6
            the Christian Trinity comprises the
            Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This fits in extremely well with the
            Traita-vada philosophy in its strictest form, which relates to the true
            nature of Reality.

            Of course, you will be aware of the view of the Advaita-vada and
            Dvaita-vada philosophies on this matter - simply put, Advaitists say that
            this Reality is fundamentally One, whilst Dvaitists maintain that there
            are two separate entities - God and matter. Similarly, the Traitists
            (most notable the Arya Samajists) argue that there are actually three
            separate entities making up this Reality - God, the soul and matter.

            God, the ultimately Sattvik entity, is invisible and formless. However,
            whilst God Himself does not have any form (He is able to manifest Himself through the
            medium of the physical Universe. Hence it is that God is manifest in each
            and every particle of the physical Universe, whilst still being able to
            remain completely detached from it all (this explains the concept of
            "Vibhuti"). This formless nature of God is exemplified in a quote from
            Shvetaashvetar Upanishad (taken from verses 6.8, 6.11 and 6.12):-

            To create the Universe is the natural function of God. He does not
            require a body or sensory organs for this. There is none equal to
            God, so how can there be a being superior to Him. His power is great
            and incomparable. In Him, the natural qualities of knowledge, power
            and creativity exist.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by MMike:
              The Mystery of the Trinity is more about questions then answers. This life long struggle with these questions are to bring us closer in our personal relationship with our Father. It's a Christians major and daily "Jihad" so to speak.
              Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all


              Dear Mmike, I do not know whether you have heard of Biddle, but let me quote him as to how he expounded this mystery that seems to have eluded you and other Christians alike.


              A summary of the " Some Arguments " presented by John Biddle ( 1615 -1662 AD) in England.

              1) He that is distinguished from GOD is not GOD. The Holy Spirit is distinguished from GOD therefore the Holy Spirit is not GOD.


              Biddle explained:- The major premise is quite clear in as much as if we say that the Holy Spirit is GOD and yet distinguished from GOD then it implies a contradiction. The minor premise that the Holy Spirit is distinguished from GOD is confirmed by the current scripture. The argument that the Holy Spirit is distinguished from GOD , if it is taken personally and not essentially is against all reason. First, it is impossible for any man to distinguish the person from the Essence of GOD and not to frame two beings or things in his mind. Consequently, he will be forced to the conclusion that there are two GOD's.

              Secondly, if the person be distinguished from the Essence of GOD, the person would be some independent thing. Therefore , it would be either finite or infinite. If finite then GOD would be a finite thing, since, according to the church everything in GOD is GOD Himself. So, the conclusion is absurd.
              If infinite then there will be two GOD's which is more absurd then the former argument.

              Thirdly, to speak of GOD taken impersonally is ridiculous , as it is admitted by everyone that GOD is the Name of a person, WHO with absolute sovereignty rules over all......none but a person can rule over others, therefore to take otherwise than personally is to take HIM otherwise then HE is.


              2) HE that gave the Holy Spirit to the Israelites is JEHOVAH alone. Then the Holy Spirit is not JEHOVAH or GOD.


              3) He that speakest not for himself is not GOD. The Holy Spirit speaks not for himself. Therefore He cannot be GOD.


              4) He that is taught is not GOD, He that hears from another what he shall speak is taught.


              Christ speaks what he is told. The Holy Spirit is also taught. Therefore Christ and the Holy sprit is not GOD. for they obey the command's of GOD.

              Here Biddle quotes John 8:26, where Jesus says: " Whatsoever I Have heard from HIM these things I speak."


              5) In John 16:14, Jesus says: " GOD is HE that giveth all things to all"... He that receives from another cannot be GOD .


              6) He that is sent by another is not GOD. The Holy Spirit and Christ was sent by GOD, so they cannot be GOD.


              7) He that is not the giver of all things is not GOD. He that is the gift of GOD is not the giver of all things. He that is the gift of GOD is himself given. The gift is in the power and at the disposal of the giver. It is therefore absurd to imagine that GOD can be in the power or at the disposal of another.

              Here Biddle quotes , Acts 17:25: " GOD giveth to all , life, breath and all things"


              8) He that changes place is not GOD. The Holy Spirit changes place, therefore he is not GOD.


              Biddle explains this syllogism :- If GOD changes place then HE would cease to be where HE was before and begin to be where HE was not before, which is against HIS Omnipresence and HIS Deity. Therefore it was not GOD who came to Jesus but an Angel sustaining the Person in the Name of GOD.

              9) In Romans 10:14 it reads :- " How shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard. He in whom men have not believed, yet were disciples." He who is not believed in is not GOD. Men have not believed in the Holy Spirit, yet were disciples. Therefore the Holy Spirit is not GOD.

              10) He that has a will , distinct in number from that of GOD is not GOD. The Holy Spirit has a will distinct in number from GOD. Therefore the Holy Spirit is not GOD.


              Here Biddle quotes Romans: 8: 26-27: which reads:- " Likewise the Spirit also helpeth....for we know not how to pray as we ought but the Spirit maketh intercession for us with groans unutterable....he maketh intercession for the saints according to the WILL of GOD.

              Biddle was persecuted by the Church and put in prison many times and he died in prison. He was particularly amazed at the "Trinity" that the church had adopted without any scriptures saying so.
              Ibrahim says: as you can see he was a Christian and due to his argument with the church he had to die.

              But leaving that aside I have to say even the Gospel denies such a theory

              The `Doctrine of Trinity' advocates that there are three `Persons', but the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, is One; such is the Father, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit; the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal, neither compounding the `Persons' nor dividing the Substance.

              In brief; the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are "co-equal", "co-eternal" and "co-substantial". None is greater than the other, before or after the other in time or dissimilar than the other in substance.

              I do not subscribe to the `Doctrine of Trinity' because the under quoted twelve verses from the New Testament (NASB) categorically and in very **EXPLICITE TERMS** NEGATE the above concept.


              1. "...I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I". John.14:28


              2. "But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ." 1 Corin. 11:3


              3. "Behold, My servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased; I will put My Spirit upon him, and he shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles." Matthew 12:18


              4. "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His Servant Jesus..." Acts 3:13.


              5.. "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy Servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint..." Acts 4:27.


              6."For you first, God raised up His Servant, and sent him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways." Acts 3:26


              7. "And you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God." 1 Corin 3:23.


              8. "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent." John 17:3


              9. "And Jesus said to him, `Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone." Mark 10:18


              10. "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." Matthew 24:36


              11. "Jesus said to her, 'Stop clinging to me; for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my bretheren, and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God." John 20:17


              12. "And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and he knelt down and began to pray, saying, `Father, if Thou art willing, remove this cup from me; yet not my will, but Thine be done." Luke 22:41-42


              Hot Tip:

              To those who advocate the `Doctrine of Trinity' I request them to read Matthew 4:10;


              "Then Jesus said to him, `Begone, Satan! For it is written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.'"


              As such Muslims worship Allah alone and none of His Angels, Prophets, Messengers and Christs are equated with Him in this worship of the Almighty Creator.


              Regards
              Ibrahim

              constantly choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil .

              Comment


                #8
                Thanks for the info Ibrahim.

                Comment


                  #9
                  QUOTE]Originally posted by Ibrahim:[/QUOTE]
                  as you can see he was a Christian and due to his argument with the church he had to die.

                  Setting the record straight:

                  John Biddle belonged to the Unitarian sect which originated in the 1400’s. This theological group of people’s concept of religion became popular during the 1400’s and was specifically propagated by Martin Cellarium (1499-1564) and Fausto Sozini (Socinus) (1539-1604). Biddle was a Johnny-come-later. Some of the teachings of this religious group are:

                  1. There is a number of inspired books of which the Bible, Qu’ran, writings of Buddha, Confucius, Lao and Vedas and Upanishads are all sources of revelation, none of which are infallible, but all of which contribute something to the religious growth and development of mankind.

                  2. That salvation is progressive and essentially a matter of character development joined with faith in God and good works, which are counted as a means towards an end of final redemption.

                  3. Jesus was just an ordinary human being.

                  4. Jesus was not born of a virgin.

                  5. There is no such thing as a Trinity/Tri-une God as claimed by Christianity.

                  It is impossible to believe what Biddle/Unitarians believe and to profess to be a follower of Jesus Christ (Christian). Biddle was persecuted as was various others (rightly or wrongly) by the Christian Church Leaders of the time.

                  To believe Biddle is a great Christian theologian is to believe Salmon Rushdie is the greatest theologian of the Muslim world in the 1900’s.




                  [This message has been edited by The Old Man (edited March 25, 2002).]

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by The Old Man:
                    It is impossible to believe what Biddle/Unitarians believe and to profess to be a follower of Jesus Christ (Christian). Biddle was persecuted as was various others (rightly or wrongly) by the Christian Church Leaders of the time.
                    Ibrahim says : Greetings of Peace to one and all


                    Dear Old man, was missing you, good to see you are back

                    Now I am sure you have tried to put forward a valid point that he was a Unitarian Christian, yet you have failed to realize the importance of what had been conveyed. Instead of looking at the argument you focused on who said it.


                    The argument is presented on the basis of the Bible as such there can be NO denial whatsoever as to who presented it. . This goes f or all religions including Islam, if someone came to me and quoted the Qur’an, I cannot discount it , be he Shia, ahmedia or even a Christian , jew or hindu ( based on his faith), I have to now focus on the argument and only after discounting that, I can conclude it was because of his faith he/she had misconceived.

                    Clearly you have not mentioned one word about the argument but spent your precious time on revealing what was Biddle’s personal inclinations.

                    My friend, even a broken clock can give the exact time two times each end every day. So I suggest, you remove the clouds in your mind by examining the arguments and biblical quotes in front of you.


                    Remember the more clouds you have in your mind, the more tears you will have on the day of judgment.


                    To believe Biddle is a great Christian theologian is to believe Salmon Rushdie is the greatest theologian of the Muslim world in the 1900’s.
                    Ibrahim says; hold your horses old man, where have you got this idea that any one proclaimed Biddle as “the” great Christian theologian? Now try to assess the post I made and look at his arguments, see how rational they are? after that look at my additions from the gospel and see how true they are?

                    Ss far as I know salmon rush die ; ) never presented any rational arguments, are you aware of some that I have missed?

                    Anyway try to focus on the trinity issue and lets skip the side show.

                    Regards
                    Ibrahim


                    Even God doesn’t judge others until their lives are over and have recorded every second of their lives on hard drive. Why should we judge others blindly?


                    Comment


                      #11
                      Some Christians practice physical healing. (very dramatic)

                      Some speak in tongues.

                      Some play with serpents and defy their venomous bite.

                      Some perform exorcisms,

                      Some can sing their hearts out.

                      Some just sit on their butt.

                      Some hate, kill, and condemn.

                      Some know every word of the Gospel forward and back.

                      Some think God is a woman.

                      Some believe Jesus is still alive!!

                      Some believe in the mystery of the trinity.

                      Some just worship with televangelists and send them money.

                      Okay I'm done.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Can someone explain why christians see singing hymns as an act of worship?
                        Never understood the concept myself.



                        ------------------
                        "Why cross an Ocean when you can cross a River"

                        Comment


                          #13

                          Before I get rather deep with our Christian friends. It would be good to get an answer to a related question.

                          It is a well known fact that the Son will one day replace the Father. This concept is accepted in all forms of life.

                          So if Jesus is the Son of God, when will he replace his father the current God and what will become of his father after replacement?

                          Please answer.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by sholay:

                            Before I get rather deep with our Christian friends. It would be good to get an answer to a related question.

                            It is a well known fact that the Son will one day replace the Father. This concept is accepted in all forms of life.

                            So if Jesus is the Son of God, when will he replace his father the current God and what will become of his father after replacement?

                            Please answer.

                            I have never heard of this theory before, I distinguish Jesus as the son of the Father, but not the same person.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by sholay:
                              It is a well known fact that the Son will one day replace the Father.

                              "Fact"? Your own viewpoint...

                              So if Jesus is the Son of God, when will he replace his father the current God and what will become of his father after replacement?

                              Jesus will never replace the Father.

                              Comment

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