Is the Shroud of Turin a Painting?

[Zalim]

This is continuation from the other thread where ibrahim and others are enforcing that the shroud of turin is merely a scam painiting. On the other hand the double stranded DNA sample collected from the blood marks on shroud is of human origin.. this made the topic controversial that either the painter has used human blood instead of red-brown color or it is infact the original shroud of some unknown human.. most likely the Jesus(as).

I ask ibrahim and the rest to read this interesting article, (which has compared both McCrone's views and others regarding the Turin Shroud) and share their views..

Is the Shroud of Turin a Painting?

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Some characteristics of the image, as found on the Shroud of Turin:

• Superficiality: Although it is quite likely that the areas associated with the stigmata are formed from blood, the negative image itself is essentially the enigmatic discolouration of the uppermost fibres of the linen threads which constitute the Shroud's fabric. This image has not `penetrated' the threads in the sense that it is not visible on the underside of the Shroud. In addition, the image is not visually coherent to the naked eye at close range.
  
  Detailed: The Shroud's negative image, once transformed to a positive state by means of modern photography, is highly detailed, which has allowed medical experts to claim that they are able to detect the presence of such details as rigor mortis, contusion wounds, excoriations and a variety of facial wounds. It should also be considered that without the medium of modern photography it is uncertain if anyone living before c 1898 could have seen these details (that is when Secondo Pia made his historic photographic negatives of the Shroud).
  
  Thermally stable: The Shroud's image was not affected by the intense heat of a fire which nearly destroyed it in 1532.
  
  No pigment: It is quite certain that no pigment was applied to the Shroud and the image is not caused by pigment, dye or stain, either.
  
  Three-dimensional: The intensity of the image varies according to the distance of the body from the cloth, strongly suggesting that the body did not in fact come into direct contact with the Shroud. The mathematical ratio is so precise that Jackson and Jumper were able to create a three-dimensional replica from the image.
  
  Negative: The image is a negative which is as visually coherent as a positive photograph when its tonal polarity is reversed.
  
  Directionless: The process that formed the image operated in a non-directional fashion. It was not generated according to any directional pattern as it would have been if applied by hand. A painting, for example, shows strong directionality, that is, the direction by which the medium was applied is evident from the brush strokes.
  
  Chemically stable: The straw-yellow discolouration composing the Shroud image cannot be dissolved, bleached, or changed by standard chemical agents.
  
  Water stable: The Shroud was doused with water to extinguish the fire of 1532. Although this has caused a visible water stain, the image itself does not appear to be affected.
  
  Reference

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited March 18, 2002).]

[Zalim]

• another reference... Shroud of Turin Website Library

[Ibrahim]

Ibrahim says . since you have split this thread, which i see no problem whatsoever, if it remained as is.

Let me detail this facts for you again as given in the other thread

1) the cloth is only 700 years old as such it cannot possibly be used by a man buried 2000 years ago.


2) the size of this cloth is 14 metres, thus it was used on a man some 13 feet tall, so kindly verify how many man that size has been walking this planet in the past 2000 years


This two facts are more then enough for anyone who is willing to use their common sense to evaluate the facts for themselves. .


I want you to use your wisdom and explain to us the following

1) If a body is still in its grave, how does the cloth that was used to cover it, is found outside its grave?


2) If the body is in Kashmir, how does the shroud that was used in that county appear in Turin?


3) Is the Kashmir grave some 14 feet in length?


4) Do you know the Jews consider used burial cloths as unclean ( every normal human being would also do so in these days) and would NEVER keep them?

Regards
Ibrahim

Common sense always speaks too late

[Zalim]

• Let me explain this fact in few words… Jesus was put to cross when he was in his third decade. History narrates that he was put on cross on late Friday afternoon and that day a storm covered the sky turning the day into night earlier, since the next day was sabbat say, so according to the jewish tradition they have to un-cross all the prisoners, this led Jesus on cross for only three hours. He having been taken for dead, his body was made over to Joseph of Arimathea (a disciple of Jesus and a very rich man) who along with Nicodemus (another disciple of Jesus and a physcian by profession) wrapped him in a cloth and carried away as if he were a corpse to a secret tomb. Actually he was in a state of swoon. there Nicodemus made an ointment from some locally grown weeds (aka marham-e-eeesa). The ointment was put on Jesus wounds, he recovered within short time and then from there he escaped to Kashmir and there died at the good ripe age of 120 years. (more details here)
  
  I hope this brief narration has given you an insight and answers to all your above questions.
  
  By the was what are your sources for the above two facts that the cloth is 700 years old and the size of image on that cloth?.

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited March 18, 2002).]

[Ibrahim]

Originally posted by Zalim:
Let me explain this fact in few words… Jesus was put to cross when he was in his third decade. History narrates that he was put on cross on late Friday afternoon and that day a storm covered the sky turning the day into night earlier, since the next day was sabbat say, so according to the jewish tradition they have to un-cross all the prisoners, this led Jesus on cross for only three hours.

Ibrahim says: hmmm…so you want to use the Bible story on me without knowing what the Bible says….so let me use the bible and correct your errors , It is customary for Jews to bury the dead by sun down not because of Sabbath

But because…..it was a commandment from God…..

Let us read.........

Deuteronomy 21: 22. If a man guilty of a capital offense is put to death and his body is hung on a tree,

23. you must not leave his body on the tree overnight. Be sure to bury him that same day, because anyone who is hung on a tree is under God's curse. You must not desecrate the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.

Ibrahim says: Thus the Jews will always bury their dead by sun down same as Muslims who will bury their dead that same day.

Now next let me show you what the Bible says,

Lets read

Matthew 27:

33. They came to a place called Golgotha (which means The Place of the Skull).
34. There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it.
35. When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots.
36. And sitting down, they kept watch over him there.
37. Above his head they placed the written charge against him: THIS IS JESUS, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
38. Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left.
39. Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads
40. and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!"
41. In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him.
42. "He saved others," they said, "but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him.
43. He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, `I am the Son of God.'"
44. In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.
45. From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land.
46. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
47. When some of those standing there heard this, they said, "He's calling Elijah."
48. Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink.
49. The rest said, "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him."
50. And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
51. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.
52. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
53. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
54. When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, "Surely he was the Son of God!"


Ibrahim says: hence according to the Gospel, when this event was supposedly taking place, God destroyed the temple of Jerusalem when the earth quaked and it eclipsed

He having been taken for dead, his body was made over to Joseph of Arimathea (a disciple of Jesus and a very rich man) who along with Nicodemus (another disciple of Jesus and a physcian by profession) wrapped him in a cloth and carried away as if he were a corpse to a secret tomb.

Ibrahim says: Lets continue… with the Bible as what you write cannot be compared with what is written in the Bible.

Matthew 27:

55. Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs.
56. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's sons.
57. As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus.
58. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him.
59. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
60. and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away.
61. Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were sitting there opposite the tomb.
62. The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate.
63. "Sir," they said, "we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, `After three days I will rise again.'
64. So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first."
65. "Take a guard," Pilate answered. "Go, make the tomb as secure as you know how."
66. So they went and made the tomb secure by putting a seal on the stone and posting the guard.

Matthew 28

1. After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
2. There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it.
3. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow.
4. The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.
5. The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified.
6. He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay.
7. Then go quickly and tell his disciples: `He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you."
8. So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples.

Actually he was in a state of swoon. there Nicodemus made an ointment from some locally grown weeds (aka marham-e-eeesa). The ointment was put on Jesus wounds, he recovered within short time and then from there he escaped to Kashmir and there died at the good ripe age of 120 years. [b](more details here)

Ibrahim says : So who ever wrote this is inventing his own version and has nothing to do with what is conveyed in the Gospel or with Christian beliefs


Lets look at another version in John's Gospel conveying the same events.


John 19:

18. Here they crucified him, and with him two others--one on each side and Jesus in the middle.
19. Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read: JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
20. Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek.
21. The chief priests of the Jews protested to Pilate, "Do not write `The King of the Jews,' but that this man claimed to be king of the Jews."
22. Pilate answered, "What I have written, I have written."
23. When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom.
24. "Let's not tear it," they said to one another. "Let's decide by lot who will get it." This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled which said, "They divided my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing." So this is what the soldiers did.
25. Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
26. When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son,"
27. and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.
28. Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty."
29. A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips.
30. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
31. Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32. The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33. But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34. Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35. The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36. These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken,"
37. and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."
38. Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jews. With Pilate's permission, he came and took the body away.
39. He was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who earlier had visited Jesus at night. Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds.
40. Taking Jesus' body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs.
41. At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had ever been laid.
42. Because it was the Jewish day of Preparation and since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there.


John 20

1. Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.
2. So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!"
3. So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb.
4. Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first.
5. He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in.
6. Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there,
7. as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen.
8. Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed.
9. (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)
10. Then the disciples went back to their homes,


Ibrahim says comparing both the versions, it is clear that what you say and what the Gospel says do differ.

I hope this brief narration has given you an insight and answers to all your above questions.

Ibrahim says: Sorry Zalim, it does not answer my question I had posed in the manner it was meant to be read.

I repeat my questions to you are :-

Let me detail this facts for you again

1) the cloth is only 700 years old as such it cannot possibly be used by a man buried 2000 years ago. http://www.mcri.org/Shroud.html

2) the size of this cloth is 14 metres, thus it was used on a man some 13 feet tall, so kindly verify how many man that size has been walking this planet in the past 2000 years http://www.mcri.org/Shroud.html


I want you to use your wisdom and explain to us the following


1) Is the Kashmir grave some 14 feet in length?

2) Do you know the Jews consider used burial cloths as unclean ( every normal human being would also do so in these days) and would NEVER keep them?


3) was Christ in your understanding 13 feet tall???????

By the was what are your sources for the above two facts that the cloth is 700 years old and the size of image on that cloth?

I had already given this in my post on the thread you had split up , in addition to books that I have in my possession on this subject I had already given you the web site being http://www.mcri.org/Shroud.html, . The info you need is also clearly mentioned therein.

Kindly note that your story as believed by you, does not tally with the events as recorded in the Bible. So shall we flick a coin or shall we accept what the Bible says?

But most of all since you claim you are a Muslim, have you not noted what the Qur’an says which corrects what the Bible says????


Regards
Ibrahim


memories of the past are not memories of facts but memories of our imaginings of the facts




[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited March 18, 2002).]

[Zalim]

• Dear Ibrahim it seems as if you are in a habit of imposing your self crafted thoughts on others as if you have some authority, the Islamic way is to understand what other is trying to convey and argue it with facts from Quran and Sunnah… picking up points which has no value does nothing except divert and kill the discussion.
  
  Since the topic is not Jesus death, that’s why without quoting any thing I narrated a very brief sketch just to answer your question that the cloth was only used to carry him away from cross to a nearby tomb (and not the tomb in Kashmir). I have given you the site for more curiosity, you may open up another thread and discuss His death at leangth, I will be happy to discuss with you.
  
  As for the "The web site" you are quoting repeatedly is one of those sites, which has been contradicted by many and have been proved that the research done by McCrone greatly lacks validity and accuracy. (read my first link)
  
  And as for Quran you are saying, It has already declared Jesus as DEAD at 30 different places (including this one).. so there is no question about it but the decision rests on you.
  
  Lastly, let me remind you something, stay with the topic don’t wander here and there or you will be lost… the topic is SHROUD OF TURIN, neither his death nor the grave in Kashmir.
  
  jazakallah
  
  
  PS: write brief and to the point
  

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited March 19, 2002).]

[Ibrahim]

Dear Ibrahim it seems as if you are in a habit of imposing your self crafted thoughts on others as if you have some authority, the Islamic way is to understand what other is trying to convey and argue it with facts from Quran and Sunnah… picking up points which has no value does nothing except divert and kill the discussion.

Ibrahim says: salaams to all

can you tell us where I have imposed anything on you??? I asked simple questions for statements you had written and instead of answering them you are trying to twist it out of proportion.. BTW can you tell us why you did not respond to questions posed by Brother Fact Finder with facts from Qur’an and sunnah, in the original thread which you have split up for your own convenience. ?

Since the topic is not Jesus death, that’s why without quoting any thing I narrated a very brief sketch just to answer your question that the cloth was only used to carry him away from cross to a nearby tomb (and not the tomb in Kashmir).

Ibrahim says: your reply was in error, that is why I needed to correct it, are you telling me I have to accept everything you say because you said so?

I have given you the site for more curiosity, you may open up another thread and discuss His death at leangth, I will be happy to discuss with you.

Ibrahim says: I do not see the need to , If you felt I had made some errors , it is your job to redirect them where you find it, not by switching from one thread to another.

As for the "The web site" you are quoting repeatedly is one of those sites, which has been contradicted by many and have been proved that the research done by McCrone greatly lacks validity and accuracy. (read my first link)

Ibrahim says: Apparently you have not read my FIRST post and my repeated insistence that I have hard copies from other researchers who attest to what I have said. Kindly go back to the old thread and find out the title and ISBN, I mentioned. Now if you are talking about numerous web sites, I suggest you get more serious, since very tom dick and harry can set up a web site and say what he/she likes.

And as for Quran you are saying, It has already declared Jesus as DEAD at 30 different places (including this one).. so there is no question about it but the decision rests on you.

Ibrahim says this where you are in error and in no where in the Qur’an does Allah (swt) convey Nabi Eesa (pbuh) as having murdered on the cross or escaped for such and event at went into hiding.

Lastly, let me remind you something, stay with the topic don’t wander here and there or you will be lost… the topic is SHROUD OF TURIN, neither his death nor the grave in Kashmir. jazakallah

Ibrahim says If that was your intention , you should not say anything other then with regards to that subject, unfortunately it is you who said other things and I am responding/redirecting as to what you said…please run over the info again.

BTW can you answer me my question, is the Kashmir grave 14 feet and is Christ 13 feet tall, since the shroud is 14 feet tall ??
And did Christ live only 700 years ag/ or is he supposedly having visited this planet 2000 years ago?

Was salaam
Ibrahim

Common sense always speaks too late.

[TOMASSO]

If the Shroud of Turin proved to be genuine, that would throw at least two major religions into a cocked hat. The cloth may be 14ft in length, but the image is not. Ibrahim does have good insight, not perfect insight and it reveals itself at some points. The negative aspect of the linen and the biological details make this relic a most interesting piece of conjecture.