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**Girl from Quraysh** · Feb 25, 2002, 09:47 PM

That was great - thank you

**anand** · Feb 26, 2002, 08:46 AM

Dear Nadia,

It�s a nice monologue, passion of a woman, a good narration of those days and nights of Sept 2001.

I am just enquiring a quote of 12 Sept 4.08 pm.
Why people belonging to Islam are bound to repeat time and again that they are a peaceful religion? Are they doubtful in some deeper conscious?

I do not see so much artificial exposure when I meet people of other religions.
You may not answer if you do not like my question.

With best rgds

**Nadia_H** · Feb 26, 2002, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by Girl from Quraysh: That was great - thank you

GfQ

I am truly glad you liked it. Thank you for reading it.

How are you doing? How are the exams going?

Anand - firstly, thank you for the flowers; just wondering - I'm not certain if you read more of the series than just the September ones, (there are nine parts in total). Of course I am willing to answer queries from anyone as long as they are framed respectfully. I agree many Muslims always reiterate that not all Muslims are terrorists and Islam isn't a religion based upon injustice and massacres of innocents, etc.

Perhaps, this is surprising for yourself as a non Muslim because you are in a privileged position not feeling threatened by media images of Muslims as a bunch of crazed, sword-wielding fanatics - as Muslims, we feel deeply pained (to say the least!) by such images. Why? In the same manner that you would feel hurt if someone should state something mocking about, or show intolerance towards, your personal beliefs (which I hope doesn't happen to anyone).

Even internationally-celebrated nonMuslim and nonAsian journalists such as John Pilger have stated multiple times that Islam has become in today's context the global "demon" - many ills, ethnic strifes, conflicts, genocides, are quickly "explained" by demonizing Islam. And why not, no need to delve into boring, tedious explanations of history or geopolitics or culture - in my opinion, and more importantly in the opinion of individuals such as John Pilger whom no one can accuse of possessing inherent biases in this issue, the media tends to disproportionately lay blame on Islam. I can only speak for myself as an individual, but I SUSPECT this is what led Zarqa Nawaz to make those comments in one of her diary excerpts.

When something so dear and cherished by me - i.e., my religion, my whole way of life, my beliefs that guide my thoughts and actions from one dawn to the next - is degraded and dragged through the mud time and time again on TV, in the papers, by so-called "experts" in widely-broadcast interviews, even in movies - how will it possiby be anything but extremely painful? So, we feel compelled to keep asking people to approach Islam with an open mind and not succumb to the latest media stereotypes.

Thanks for your question

I hope I have explained it well?

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Verily in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest ~ Holy Quran XIII.28

**anand** · Feb 26, 2002, 12:29 PM

Dear Nadia,

I respect your grievances and you are right, I have opened the site once again and going thru the rest of the diary notes.

I do not agree that the press is whole sole guilty for mudding Islam. Let us not go very far into the history. When the American backed forces declared a war against Afghanistan, what the so called Islamic heros Osama and Omar did?
They did not give a call to the downtrodden or the exploited to fight against the West, instead they gave a call to the Muslims for jihad.

Can you blame the press if in some Islamic State the Sharyat laws are implemented in full extent and as a result the roads are red in blood?

Recently you put up some questions on the Bangla Desh freedom movement and the role of Pak Army.
In all one thing you are never informed.
Pak soldiers were told by then Pak leadership that they were on a jihad against kafirs in East Pakistan, and as a result appr 26000 civilians were killed just in 9 months period. Islamic mentality was behind that massacre and not any western press.

Press or media have flourished in 20th century, though Islam followers have been stressing of peace aspects of Islam since the day first? Something is definitely not correct.

Let us find out the reason!
For one thing I am sure that Islam is a very active religion in comparison to others. Activeness is not greatness, rather it is a weak point. Your Madrisa setup is behind the activeness of your religion. Closedown your all Madrisas, you will have less, may be very less fanatics, most probably Islamic States will vanish and off course you would not need to tell here and there that you are a peaceful religion.
Sorry, may be I am going very far!

With best, and best regards

**Changez_like** · Feb 26, 2002, 12:59 PM

anand,
only one line should do for you & likes:
"baghal mai chhuri mun mai raam raam"

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May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

**Nadia_H** · Feb 28, 2002, 07:23 PM

I'm very sorry for the delay, Anand.

I do not agree that the press is whole sole guilty for mudding Islam.
Fair enough.
This will be one of the main sticking points in our discussion. You lay fault on Islam, I lay responsibility upon the media. We can agree to disagree

Let us not go very far into the history. When the American backed forces declared a war against Afghanistan, what the so called Islamic heros Osama and Omar did?
um sorry, but, from where did you get your term "Islamic heroes"? 1.1 billion individuals around the world never elected them as such; yes large pockets of people around the world consider Mullah Omar as an Islamic hero, and even bin Laden, but their opinions are just that - opinions. It is not fact. The Taliban are certainly not my Islamic heroes.

They did not give a call to the downtrodden or the exploited to fight against the West, instead they gave a call to the Muslims for jihad.
(Note that, according to some Muslim scholars, given bin Laden's position he did not even have a right to issue any fatwas; perhaps, however, this is a side point). Please let me know whether you agree with the fact that their calling for "jihad" is in no way dissimilar to David Koresh's actions in Waco, Texas, a number of years ago, and not any more different than calls by the Klu Klux Klan calling on all "good Christians" to rise up against 'people of colour'. When I hear statements by these 'Christian fundamentalist groups and individuals, am I to believe that Christianity is in some way to blame ?

Can you blame the press if in some Islamic State the Sharyat laws are implemented in full extent and as a result the roads are red in blood?
Anand my friend, you and I will forever disagree about this. With all due respect, how is that a problem with Islam - it is a problem with the implementation of Shariyat. In a 'Religion and Politics' class I had this morning about nine hours ago, we had a Greek Orthodox speaker come in to discuss Islam. During the discussion of "jihad", he raised the issue of how 'holy war' has become synonymous with the word 'jihad; as he correctly pointed out, 'holy war' is derived from the Crusades hundreds of years ago when European, "Christian" armies waged war against Muslims, slaughtering some - according to this Greek Orthodox Religious Studies professor - some 70,000 Muslims. This, ostensibly, in the name of God. It's your call, Anand - should I blame Christianity for this or should accountability lie at the feet of a group of individuals professing themselves Christians?

Recently you put up some questions on the Bangla Desh freedom movement and the role of Pak Army. In all one thing you are never informed. Pak soldiers were told by then Pak leadership that they were on a jihad against kafirs in East Pakistan, and as a result appr 26000 civilians were killed just in 9 months period. Islamic mentality was behind that massacre and not any western press.
um you speak of "Islamic mentality" as though it is one homogeneous, monolithic force. In my humble opinion, it most certainly is not.

Press or media have flourished in 20th century, though Islam followers have been stressing of peace aspects of Islam since the day first? Something is definitely not correct.
Upon this we agree - something IS definitely not correct.

Your Madrisa setup is behind the activeness of your religion. Closedown your all Madrisas, you will have less, may be very less fanatics, most probably Islamic States will vanish and off course you would not need to tell here and there that you are a peaceful religion.
I am not certain regarding your discussion about madrassas. Perhaps the problem is more deep-seated than that, involving poverty and socio-economic conditions. Poverty breeds fundamentalism, not religion (at least in my opinion).

Sorry, may be I am going very far!

With best, and best regards
Thank you! No, as long as this remains a respectful discussion I won't be offended by answering questions.

------------------
Verily in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest ~ Holy Quran XIII.28

**anand** · Mar 2, 2002, 03:14 AM

Hello Dear Nadia, thanks for your reply! I was afraid that you did not like some of my remarks and have decided to ignore this topic.
Thanks that you are here!

While participating on these religious forums I am always conscious not to defend any religion.
No religion is sane in history. Christians, Hindus or others have many a time taken shelter of swords on the name of religion, sometimes for revenge and sometimes for political gains. But since we entered the 20th century and an era of new democratic setup, religion started getting apart from the State, became more cultured.
But Islam rejected the new approach of life.

I can argue again and again that an ideology is faulty if it can easily be manipulated for violence and killings.
You cannot compare Islam to other religions because rests of the religions have become more or less passive.
After so much bloodshed you have no right to escape just by putting all the blame on the manipulator.

There is definitely a lot of madness left among Christians, Hindus and Jews, but when some one gives a call for crusade against others, such calls are not funded and protected by any State or law, on the contrary a killer like Saddam calls the Muslims for jihad and attracts response, this is the reason that the media cannot let go Islam scot-free.

Religion is not supreme. Religion is not cosmic.
If you have to understand Islam, first refute the supremacy of the Prophet and quran, and off course you will find a total non sense in Shariyat.
It is not difficult. You need courage!

We need a psycho study of Islam if we have to understand the extremist nature of its fundamentalist followers.
I find fault with the Madrisa setup for all activeness of Islam. In a Madrisa where a minor of 6 or 7 of age spend some of his brilliant years, is programmed that his religion is supreme and that the rest are non believers and he has a divine right to get rid of them. What do you expect after such programming?
Yes, they are parallel told that they are a peaceful religion and hence they are always confused when their religion is accused for violence.
A majority of Muslim children in Asia and Africa start their abcd in a Madrisa.

So much violence has erupted in India. They say that ISI is behind the scenario. I am not sure. There can be a plot.
In India RSS/VHP have succeeded in creating study setups for their followers parallel to Madrisas.
Why cannot they live without a place of worship?

I am sure that a peaceful atheist is much better than a fundamentalist religious person.

With best rgds

**Girl from Quraysh** · Mar 2, 2002, 10:25 PM

Nadia - So much and so unbelievably busy, I'll write you

ps. Wait till you hear who came to speak here yesterday

**Nadia_H** · Mar 3, 2002, 09:19 AM

Anand, thank you very much for your reply. Really appreciate it. Unfortunately am always away for the weekends, so unable to stay on the computer for very long. I am not offended by your posts as long as they are respectful (which they always have been to me, something which I appreciate). Of course the same goes for yourself - you are free to ignore my posts if they are ever disrespectful and show ignorance, and I hope in those instances you will correct me if I state something wrong or rude. I'm contemplating of a good reply and will post it on Tuesday when I return. Muchas gracias for this patience.

Girl from Quraysh - You sound busy!:-/ No worries, write whenever you have the time. (Who am I to talk about punctuality, being myself by far the lousiest at replying on time). Best of luck with your exams, by the way. As you may have heard, profs here are going on strike on Monday, so I'm not sure what's going to be happening here:-(

PS- who came to speak? Don't tell me he came again! Or was it Sponeck?

[This message has been edited by Nadia_H (edited March 03, 2002).]

**Dil he Pakistani** · Mar 3, 2002, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by anand:
There is definitely a lot of madness left among Christians, Hindus and Jews, but when some one gives a call for crusade against others, such calls are not funded and protected by any State or law, on the contrary a killer like Saddam calls the Muslims for jihad and attracts response, this is the reason that the media cannot let go Islam scot-free.

Mr Anand, so your saying because of the actions of one lunatic the Media is justified in stereotyping the whole of the Islamic world?

We need a psycho study of Islam if we have to understand the extremist nature of its fundamentalist followers.
I find fault with the Madrisa setup for all activeness of Islam. In a Madrisa where a minor of 6 or 7 of age spend some of his brilliant years, is programmed that his religion is supreme and that the rest are non believers and he has a divine right to get rid of them. What do you expect after such programming?
Yes, they are parallel told that they are a peaceful religion and hence they are always confused when their religion is accused for violence.
A majority of Muslim children in Asia and Africa start their abcd in a Madrisa.

The fact their getting any education is better than no education. Having said that, in Pakistan the Government is introducing reforms within the schools so that other subjects can be taught and students can broaden their knowledge, which is necessary for the modern world.

So much violence has erupted in India. They say that ISI is behind the scenario. I am not sure. There can be a plot.

Plot or no plot, Extremism seems to flourish within the realms of Hindu Revivalist groups such as RSS, VHP, Shiv Sena and other smaller Organisations. India needs a parallel policy to stop all forms of extremism instead of just talking about the maddrasahs.

In India RSS / VHP have succeeded in creating study setups for their followers parallel to Madrisas.
Why cannot they live without a place of worship?

Who the muslims or the Hindus. The fact is places of worship are needed to act as a centre for the community so they can collectively offer prayers. The Mosque or Temple offers religious or social advice. Many Mosques throughout the world have library's, they can offer legal advice, they provide family support (funerals) they also provide a medical service for women. So places of worship do have a role to play in Society.

So I am sure that a peaceful atheist is much better than a fundamentalist religious person.

I disagree, an atheist has far more chances to become corrupt in his lifetime. Since he/she does not believe in God, He will carry out actions deemed to be sinful in many Religions. Ultimately, atheists are more prone to lead a sinful life. Whereas a fundamentalist Religious person may not commit sins because of his fear of God. Having said that, in my opinion any person who commits murder in the name of religion is outside the folds of that Religion. Can you say the same thing for Hinduism ??

[This message has been edited by Dil he Pakistani (edited March 06, 2002).]

**Qrius** · Mar 9, 2002, 01:48 PM

Nice read

**Nadia_H** · Mar 11, 2002, 03:18 PM

Anand,
MANY MANY thanks for your extreme patience. I shall always be grateful for it.

No religion is sane in history. Christians, Hindus or others have many a time taken shelter of swords on the name of religion, sometimes for revenge and sometimes for political gains. But since we entered the 20th century and an era of new democratic setup, religion started getting apart from the State, became more cultured. But Islam rejected the new approach of life.
I think I would respectfully disagree with your statement that religion (in general, with the exception of Islam) has begun to become more "cultured". um I don't see any "culture" in the numerous ethnic conflicts and wars raging across the globe - and I don't mean this in an exaggerated fashion. Angola, Somalia, Rwanda, Burundi, Eritrea, Chechnya, Xinjiang, Macedonia, Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq, and now even the recent killings in India lead me to believe that, if anything, on the whole while our technological capabilities are extremely superior we are definitely becoming less "cultured". Not surprisingly, I completely disagree with your statement that Islam has "rejected the new approach of life" (but I respect your right to hold your opinion, whatever it may be). If carnage and slaughter is the "new approach of life" (as I believe it is in my personal opinion), then I am ecstatic that Islam has nothing to do with it!

I can argue again and again that an ideology is faulty if it can easily be manipulated for violence and killings.
I am not certain where you reside but in Canada, there is a particular age limit that distinguishes "juvenile offenders" from adults, (although I think each province differs somewhat regarding the particular age). Typically, this is somewhere between 14 to 18. Let's say that I commit a major crime and, being 21, I fall into the adult category. Under the provincial laws of my province, I don't have the right to claim that my parents/guardians did not inculcate within me sound moral judgements and values; being a reasonably sane, rational-thinking adult I will have to acknowledge (however reluctantly) that I alone am responsible for committing the crime. I cannot blame my parents, my teachers, my friends, etc. Being a rational thinking adult who committed the crime out of my own free will, the law will always hold me responsible. Why do you refuse to apply the same analogy to Islam and Muslims? With all due respect, doesn't it seem a TAD bit hypocritical to yourself to judge all religions, barring Islam, by a different standard ? Why not judge everything using the same criterion ?

You cannot compare Islam to other religions because rests of the religions have become more or less passive. After so much bloodshed you have no right to escape just by putting all the blame on the manipulator.
I am truly sorry, but this I completely disagree with. No religion has become "more or less passive". I argued above that the amount of current conflicts in the world amply demonstrate this point. Just because some 1000 Palestinians have died since last year's intifada initiated, does not mean that I hold all Jews personally responsible for their deaths! I have Palestinian friends very dear to me whom I have known since the beginning of high school, and while it hurts me to watch them grieve over the loss of their loved ones in Palestine, I never equate their deaths with Judaism as a whole. The two are unrelated as far as I am concerned. So I am sorry, but I am at a loss to comprehend how you are so easily able to intertwine the actions of a handful of Muslims (yes, handful, when you consider there are 1.1 billion Muslims in the world today) with Islam.

There is definitely a lot of madness left among Christians, Hindus and Jews, but when some one gives a call for crusade against others, such calls are not funded and protected by any State or law, on the contrary a killer like Saddam calls the Muslims for jihad and attracts response...
Hussein's calling for "jihad" and the response that that attracts has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Islam. It has everything to do, in my opinion, with the media's obsession with Hussein and their ignorance with, and obsession around, the issue of "jihad". (For starters, Saddam Hussein doesn't even have the right to call a fatwa or a "jihad" against anyone - not according to Islam anyways). If the majority of the media is too ignorant to fathom the meaning and concept behind "jihad" and understand who may and may not, according to Islam, issue fatwas, then frankly that is their problem. They need to do a bit more reading.

Religion is not supreme. Religion is not cosmic.
That is your opinion. I'm beginning to feel like an idiot for constantly repeating myself, but - I'll always respect your right to your opinions, however strongly I disagree.

If you have to understand Islam, first refute the supremacy of the Prophet and quran...
Impossible.

...and off course you will find a total non sense in Shariyat.
Sorry, but examples, please.

It is not difficult. You need courage!
Anand my friend, I think we define courage quite differently. In my opinion, courage is not rebelling purely for the sake of rebelling, purely for the sake of going against the tide. At least in my opinion (and I know I can be wrong), courage is embracing whatever one believes the truth to be, however much one is mocked and criticized at. I had never been afraid to be a Muslim until after September 11, but now - with all thanks to God - I am also extremely proud to call myself a Muslim. Courage is not being insecure when someone mocks my religion, when someone criticizes me for getting up to pray early in the morning; courage is being proud to be a Muslim especially during this time when Islam's name is being dragged through the mud. Courage is not rebelling and speaking out against Islam just because it happens to be one of the most misunderstood religions in our time! That is cowardly, at least in my opinion

I find fault with the Madrisa setup for all activeness of Islam. In a Madrisa where a minor of 6 or 7 of age spend some of his brilliant years, is programmed that his religion is supreme and that the rest are non believers and he has a divine right to get rid of them. What do you expect after such programming?
So, Anand, who is saying that ALL Muslims have been brainwashed in madrassas? Since when have EACH of the 1.1 billion Muslims in the world today attended a madrassa system as you describe it ? While I agree that Pakistan's madrassas are certainly not the most conducive for actual learning, I don't believe that ALL the madrassas in the world today are like that. I do utterly acknowledge the fact that Pakistan and other Muslim countries need to desperately overhaul their madrassa system, but not all of us have attended those types of madrassas and not all Muslims are narrow minded and extremist.

Take a look around you - I am not certain where you reside, but (taking a guess) if you live in a large North American city or in London, chances are that you have a sizable group of Muslims in your neighborhood. Some Muslims might even be your neighbours; they might be working in the store that you frequently shop at; they might be working in the hospital that serves your community; they might be at a nearby university campus, teaching. We are ordinary human beings, Anand, no more no less. If you met me, you would probably be amazed at how shy I am; not all of us have AK-47s secretly hidden in our attire. There are 1.1 billion Muslims - honestly speaking how many of their actions have you personally witnessed that you are in a position to be able to claim that there is something negative within Islam itself?

I was afraid that you did not like some of my remarks and have decided to ignore this topic. Thanks that you are here!
Thank YOU for your questions and for the respectful discussion we have managed to have until now. Much appreciated. Take care

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Verily in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest ~ Holy Quran XIII.28

**anand** · Mar 12, 2002, 02:28 AM

Dear Nadia,

Let me acknowledge that I was anxiously waiting for your reply.

This usually happens in such type of internet discussions, that we can continue arguing with no end.
Let us ask, why Islam, and not some other religion is target of world media? This was the point that we entered this discussion.
If some of Islamic practices like issuing fatwas by some mullahas, torturing women to death, were a game of some remote areas, Islam might remain a religion, good for some people, bad for some others, may be.
Do not you come across some news item that in some village a Hindu woman is compelled to die on the pyre of her dead husband? Or some low casts are just killed for being low casts. World media does not make much noise. Pls tell me why? But Islam is immediately questioned. Why?
I do not think that the world media has some allergy towards Islam.
May be Islam is aggressive! May be people are afraid of Islam!

Who is guilty when a State Islamic leader, who is a State in himself gives a call of jihad, and most of the time these calls of jihad are against the populace of the same State and as a result Muslims are killed in bulk?
Shall media not notice such atrocities?
Many a time, in many states Sharyats were imposed. What is good in cutting hands, stoning women to death?

I am sorry Nadia, all the time you tell us that so and so jihad is not Islam, such fatwa is not Islam and so and so leader is also not Islam, and so far we decide this confusion thousands are just killed for Islam or by Islam.
May be you will tell us why Islam is most misunderstood religion!

Ever religion has some definite psycho impacts.
Yes, I question the ideology of Islam, and I have many Muslim friends, very nice friends in fact.

With best regards

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