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Men have a 'status' above women?

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    Men have a 'status' above women?

    It has lately come up in some discussions with non-Muslims that the Qur'an calls women 'inferior' to men. Translations have been thrown around to prove the point.

    Let's review one such verse quoted often:

    Pickthall

    [al-Baqarah 2:228] Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart, three (monthly) courses. And it is not lawful for them that they should conceal that which Allah hath created in their wombs if they are believers in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands would do better to take them back in that case if they desire a reconciliation. And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise.

    PakistaniAbroad: Before proceeding let's keep in mind the context. The verse starts with an instruction for women to disclose their pregnancies in case of a breakup and then transitions into telling the men that it would be better if they reconciled. This is a wonderful Qur'anic message to save the child from living in a broken househould.

    Now keeping the flow of the verse in mind, let's analyze the arabic for the portion in bold:

    valahunna misl allazee alayhinna bilmaroofe va lirrijaale alayhinna darajatun.

    valahunna = and for them (female)

    misl allaze = similar/like that/which

    alayhinna = on them (female)

    bilmaroofe = with the kindness/with the generosity

    va lirrijaale = and to the men

    darajatun = a step/a stage/a degree

    Now bearing in mind that the important word here is bilmaroofe

    The correct literal translation becomes:

    and for them (female) similar what on them (females) with the kindness / generosity and to the men a degree

    Putting it into perspective, it is absolutely clear that Allah here is declaring that women have to return in kind whatever generosity men bestow on them but men have to go the extra mile.

    Sorrry guys, no message of superiority over women and sorry non-Muslims, use something else. This verse may actually backfire in trying to prove Islam as a misogynist religion.

    -------------------------------
    There is No Spoon

    [This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited February 16, 2002).]
    JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

    #2
    How the hell did you get from:

    and for them (female) similar what on them (females) with the kindness / generosity and to the men a degree

    to:

    Putting it into perspective, it is absolutely clear that Allah here is declaring that women have to return in kind whatever generosity men bestow [b]on them[b] but men have to go the extra mile.

    Total BS.

    Q. Do you even know Arabic? You know, one could derive tons of different view from your 'litereal' translation. Dont toy with the Quran.

    Comment


      #3
      Btw- since when are muslims supposed to define our religion 'according' to what the non-muslim thinks is ok?

      You seem like you'd twist any of your belief until it'd conform with what the non-muslim thinks.

      Comment


        #4
        Total BS.

        Q. Do you even know Arabic? You know, one could derive tons of different view from your 'litereal' translation. Dont toy with the Quran.
        You cannot derive tons of different views because the context has been established. The verse is asking women to let the man know of any pregnancies. The men are asked in turn to reconcile if possible. The ground has been laid to state the responsibilities/kindness that each gender should show.

        Do you have any contention with the 'maroof' being translated as generosity/kindness instead of the totally incorrect 'rights'?

        ------------------
        There is No Spoon
        JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by ammarr:
          Btw- since when are muslims supposed to define our religion 'according' to what the non-muslim thinks is ok?

          You seem like you'd twist any of your belief until it'd conform with what the non-muslim thinks.
          Muslims are supposed to use the head on their shoulders instead of regurgitate what old scholars wrote according to their own understanding which at that time was highly influenced by the male dominated society.

          I couldn't care less what non-muslims think. I am more concerned about Muslim women who have been subjugated by erroneous translations of the divine text.

          If you have an argument, put it forward, just crying foul doesn't help. Put some effort and prove otherwise or stay at the sidelines and observe and learn.

          ------------------
          There is No Spoon
          JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
            You cannot derive tons of different views because the context has been established. The verse is asking women to let the man know of any pregnancies. The men are asked in turn to reconcile if possible. The ground has been laid to state the responsibilities/kindness that each gender should show.

            Do you have any contention with the 'maroof' being translated as generosity/kindness instead of the totally incorrect 'rights'?

            PA, NO, 'maroof' translates to generosity and kindness, I am not doubting that, and rights is a totally incorrect term.

            I figured you were talking about the rights of a woman and man, while this ayah talks only about how a man/woman should react in SUCH sircumstances.

            Yes in such sircumstances, the man is supposed to try and be a step ahead in kindness and to reconcile the matter. But this ayah doesn't talk about the rights and responsibilites of either, in general. =)

            Comment


              #7
              many people use this verse....
              even i used it in a debate to prove that men do have an upper hand....
              but thanx for clearing the doubts....
              makes more sense now....
              jazak Allah brother....

              ------------------
              "Our Lord! forgive us our sins and anything we may have done that transgressed our duty; establish our feet firmly and help us against those that resist faith." Quran(3:147)
              Both Halal & Haram r evident but between them r doubtful things, most ppl have no knowledge about them. So whoever saves himself from suspicious things saves his religion & honor, & whoever indulges in suspicious things indulges in Haram.

              Comment


                #8
                In Ibn Katheer's tafseer, traslation of the last sentence is also on the same lines. It reads:

                ....but men have a degree (of responsibility) over them.
                But he goes on to confirm the advantageous position of men over women. He then quotes ayah 4:34 which says that men are protectors and maintainersas Allah has "made one of them excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means."

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                Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

                [This message has been edited by FactFinder (edited February 17, 2002).]

                Comment


                  #9
                  At times when the Quranic translations can be vague and can have multiple interpretations, a wise muslims should sit and think about what islam teaches in all of Quran.
                  Treat your women kinldy and you cant go wrong. No human is inferior to you...and "you" as a muslim should know that. That is for Allah to judge.
                  As far as women are concerned they are very equal but different. Ofcourse we all know the differences especially the monthly events that make certains hormonal changes in women and hence makes them less patient and irritable ( Women can correct me if I am wrong ). Hence we should go the extra "degree" and be patient and overly careful towards them during those days.
                  On the other hand "female" is physically ( strenghtwise ) weaker, So that puts the responsibilty of protection and help on us.
                  Just like a woman likes to be treated like a lady and man should feel proud to treat her right and provide and not become a bully in the process and start thinking of himself as superior somehow.

                  PakistaniAbroad : I really like the way you have provided the translation and possible meanings.
                  Fayax


                  [This message has been edited by fayax (edited February 18, 2002).]
                  "Don't guess a person's character on his present situation because time has the power
                  to change an ordinary coal into a precious diamond"

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Thank you, PA.. this was extremely helpful

                    ------------------
                    Verily in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest ~ Holy Quran XIII.28

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I am willing as a Non-Muslim to accept your translation PakAbroad.

                      I fail to understand why Religion should get into your pants though!!

                      I regard that as intrusive. Religion should stick to GOd!!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Andhra, do we really need to drill into your head the fact that Islam is not just a religion, its a way of life?

                        Comment

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