Announcement

**Cute4NR** · Jan 23, 2002, 04:21 PM

it sounds ridiculous to talk about something to be hidden in religion, since by hiding something, you would be taking all responsibility away from the followers, and putting it on yourself.
eg. if christian bigups (pope, cardinals etc) are hiding dead sea scrolls that contain true biblical teachings, that are totally opposite to current biblical teachings, then the current day christians are absolved of all responsibility, arent they? since they didnt get the real message to begin with.

and plus, thru the years , id figure there would be some pope or clergy man who would have opposed the masking of all this info. At least someone would have tried to publicize them. but we have no such info.

**PakistaniAbroad** · Jan 23, 2002, 04:32 PM

so what if they reveal what's hidden?

Muslims claim to have the Final Testament from God intact. Are they following it or are they following the teachings of their scholars and Imams?

------------------
This Space For Rent

**CocoNut** · Jan 23, 2002, 10:03 PM

Thanx for the input Cute4nr and PA
BUT

Again I ask what is hidden? and why?

------------------
Jitna Diya Sarkar Nay Mujko, Itni Meri Auqat Nahi, Yeh Saab Tumhara Karam Hai Aqa, Mujh Mein Aisi Koi Baat Nahin.

Love happens once . . .

**rin** · Jan 23, 2002, 11:25 PM

They hidden what is in the quran

**rin** · Jan 23, 2002, 11:26 PM

Read the quran and thats what ius hidden in the bible the truth

**Ibrahim** · Jan 23, 2002, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by CocoNut:
Dead sea scrolls?

What is hidden??

Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all

The Dead Sea scrolls�. ( summary)

What is this stuff? Some kind of a sea food?

Well, these are writings, that had been written (believed to be) at about 150 B.C till about 68 AD and hidden in caves, at Qumran near the region of the Dead Sea, located about 15 miles from Jerusalem. (Sorry folks, was there a Jerusalem? At that time?, well if the letter "J" did not exist in Hebrew, how could there be one? So it was actually "Yerusalem")

What's so great about some writings?

Well, since we know that our current Gospel was actually put together at about 325 AD (current Torah is actually dated 1008 AD) and have no surviving original manuscripts that could be dated at about the time of Christ, this scrolls are the oldest manuscripts available for mankind to retrace and verify the accuracy of the current Bible.

How did they get hidden in caves?

Now, you don't expect us to tell you for sure, do you? Get real will you! This took place some 2000 years ago. Can you honestly recall everything you did 3, 6, 12 years ago? Please just try ! , then ask your parents to try and recall what you used to do, now try asking your friends, then try asking your wife or neighbor. get it ! Have you noticed how accurate the media is in reporting an event? Most autobiographies is normally recorded in favour of certain individuals and events. Could anyone honestly write about how you think, feel, behaved, sinned, slept, ate etc? History itself had been re-written, many times. Get the picture? Now, We could sort of give you some kind of a picture based on the history records (which is full of holes) at that period, but it is debatable, anyway we will give it a try based on what little we know.

From the miracle of Christ's birth (preached as an infant) and from his knowledge of the Torah, which he would have imparted (confirmed) to the public from his birth, divisions would have arose from those who held to the Torah as taught by the wicked priests and the Torah imparted by Christ, his Mother , his Priestly Relations and Yahya (John the Baptist) . These corrected teachings would have serious implications for the wicked priesthood and the Roman authorities that were in control of Yerusalem. The aggressions and corrupt practices of the priest are clearly recorded in the scrolls as well as the current Bible. Since the priests who held power at Yerusalem were in close concert with the governing Roman (pagan) authorities, it would be easy for them to alter the Torah, isolate and persecute the pious Priests, Christ , his priestly family members and his followers, including John (sorry folks no "J" remember, so his name was Ioannen, as recorded in Greek texts or as Yahya as recorded in Arabic texts) the Baptist who had been preaching and had been driven out of Yerusalem (the calling in the desert).

Since the Elders ( Pious Levi priests) would have been forced out gradually, they would have ensured that the property entrusted to them (tithes, the ark of the covenant and accumulated temple wealth ) was hidden, away from the temple and the caves at Qumran, would have been an ideal place for these purpose, if they had failed , it would mean that the wicked priests who were actually puppets of the Roman empire, would have got a hold of the property entrusted to them. (They had managed to do this from the writings which reveal the 64 locations, where they had hidden the property belonging to the temple as written in the copper scroll, that was found in these caves)

So it goes without saying, persecution generally leads to isolation and thus a hidden community ( in the desert) had to be formed in order to establish correct temple worship, to survive and also to reveal the Truth that had been hidden by the wicked Priests, who had occupied and corrupted the temple at Yerusalem.

This Qumran community had to live by the Torah. This Qumran community should have consisted of the Elders ( the true and Pious Levi lineage) Yahaya (John), Esa (Jesus) and their disciples , plus the most trusted followers who were able to understand the corruption of the Torah, by the wicked priests at Yerusalem. This communities main purpose, would off course be to live by the Torah ( establish correct temple worship) and fulfill God's commandments and off course to reach out to their brethren, to save them and to reveal the truth about the priests and re-capture the temple at Yerusalem.

Being hidden this community would also consist mainly of males as the women and children would be much safer living in their own homes in the towns and the work at hand was more a question of propagation (redirection) to the masses and family life would be better kept separately for their own safety at least and also because women�s monthly periods would make them impure for staying too close to the temporary temple being built at Qumran. ( which should have held the ark of the covenant, that disappeared before the Romans try to enter the temple). Secrecy would have been the name of the game, so no names, no identity were revealed to anyone, if the wicked priest knew the people responsible, they could have used the roman authorities to persecute the entire family lineage)

This Qumran community had to form elaborate rules for everything including rules for actually joining this congregation, anyone who wanted to join had to be observed for a period of two years before being admitted into the mainstream of the community. This provided security as well as insurance against corruption of the teachings. This meant that new recruits had to live outside (away from the main community hall, which would be the temporary temple, until the temple at Yerusalem can be purified and the corrupted priests be punished) the community in caves that had to be curved out by these recruits who had wanted to join the community. ( it would also be probable that in order to maintain secrecy the new recruits would be brought to this location blind folded such that if they left or were found to be a spy, before their probation term, they will not know its location or the contents of the temple or the names of the elders)

Sometime before 68 AD, the wicked priests were able to convince (or force) one of the disciples of Christ to identify him and thus enabling them to make an attempt on his life. Although Christ had been preaching at various locations, very few seem to know his identity or his movements. Anyway, this event is currently assumed as the crucifixion of Christ, immediately Christ would have been saved from that situation and it was made to look as if they had actually hanged the Christ. Thus the temple at Yerusalem was destroyed by the CREATOR (earthquake) for this un-relenting action taken by the wicked priests against the sign of the CREATOR. (This destruction of the temple is recorded in the current Gospel)

This turn of events (loss of Christ and the destruction of the temple), would have let to a revolt by the Jews against the Roman empire, who would have assumed that it was the Romans who had destroyed their temple followed up by the Romans, who must have decided to eradicate the Jewish nation once and for all, hence, Jews all over the land would have been slaughtered, remaining Jews would have decided to flee, some would have regrouped at the Masada, which was the last stronghold for the Jews. But since those who lived at Qumran had also to flee in order to protect their families who would be living with the town folk, (Fundamentally being spiritual they would have also decided to protect their brethren against the Romans, who were their pagan masters) they would have hidden the scrolls in the caves in order to protect them from the Roman onslaught, hoping that they will be able to return to the scrolls, plus to their valuable property that also would have been hidden in various locations. (in addition to the temple wealth, that is hidden in 64 other locations as recorded by the true priests in the copper scroll, copper had been used such that it will last a longer time, this scroll must have been used for many generations) The hiding of the scrolls itself reveals the order of importance, the older texts, temple guidelines, community guidelines had been put away into a pot that were meant to keep them save, but the other newer texts that had been used, were left in the caves, in a hurry, probably due to lack of time.

Apparently the Jews were defeated and most likely this Qumran community building could have been occupied by the Romans, which meant, that they was no way anyone who knew it could return or none of those who knew its location survived the battle or it was too dangerous for any Jew to return to this region.

But surely some one would have managed to escape and inform the world about the hidden scrolls?

This is very likely, since there is evidence of Greek followers living in the caves, Greeks would have been able to escape with some scrolls, when or before the Romans attacked and most likely could have conveyed the information to others too. (At the same, time Jews too could have wondered off in different directions, teaching and spreading the knowledge they had learned)

This could be the reason why much of Christianity had its main source from Greek writings, re compiled 325 years later.

The Jews who fled in different directions, would also have carried the teachings contained in the Torah and passed them on to their children in various forms. But surprisingly no one was able to pass on the correct information or maybe, they did and were rejected by the Nicea council at 325 AD, which accepted the versions that, were similar, acceptable to them and rejected the others. ( which they would have declared as heresy and made sure the rest were destroyed or they had been kept at St. Peters in Rome, which was destroyed by fire at 1600 AD). Here we also need to note the Gospel of Barnabas and the Gospel of Thomas are still available and these are currently considered as heretic books and were actually found outside of Israel.

Hey wait a minute! They were these group of people who called themselves, Muslims, actually claiming that their Book was hidden in a cave and surprisingly these people denied the Qur'an ( means "reading" which is technically a Book ) and claimed their Book was three times bigger and they had twelve apostles and actually their last apostle, who was only five years old was living with the scripture in a cave till today. Could these be the true followers of Christ? Could they have left some women and children in the cave's to await their return? are indeed possibilities.

Come to think of it , the person who began this was actually a Jew who had converted , and he was very sure that their Muslim community had 12 apostles, that their scripture was much bigger than the Islamic scripture. (This is very likely, since Jews who followed the true teachings of their prophet would be called Muslims and they did have 12 patriarch, Elders who were of the same family (Levi) tree. the Biblical scripture, the Torah is very much bigger than the Qur'an) Since this info was revealed some 800 years later, they could be a mix-up about which Muslims, he was taking about).

This group later grew to become the Shi ite's that now occupy Iran and are to this day claiming that their Scripture is hidden in a cave. But unfortunately the current shi'ite community (which started at about 1500 AD) understand it to be the Qur'an but in our view many things can get twisted and many things have come to be written, that never existed. We will know how much, when the dead sea scrolls, can one day be revealed as is without being hidden or cooked by those who had been entrusted to publish it..

This is interesting, but all this is only a conjecture that cannot be proved, now what actually was found?

Hey nothing in history can be proved for sure ! Now, over a period of 9 years, 11 caves had been discovered as of 1947 till 1956, which contained various scrolls, the first discovery at cave one (QS1, was well preserved, kept in a sealed pot) which revealed the complete book of Isaiah which was so significant that in 1952 itself the RSV Bible (revised standard version) was published with 13 variant readings taken from the Isaiah scroll.)

Then the rest of the caves were discovered one after the other, the scrolls are actually called QS1 to QS11 according to the cave they were discovered in. Altogether at least 15,000 fragments (about 850 scrolls) of the scrolls were compiled that contained

1) all the Books of the current Bible except for Esther & NO New Testament

2) The Community Rule, ( how this new community is to govern itself)

3) The temple scroll ( which affirms the law of Moses and strict guidance of it),

4) The copper scroll ( stating the location of the wealth of the temple at Yerusalem that had been hidden at Qumran for save keeping), This is the clearest proof that the temple had been moved to Qumran

4) The war scroll, ( the way to fight the sons of darkness) Another proof that the pious were planning to recover the temple that become corrupted.

5) Compiled thanks giving psalms, (that had been used by the elders)

6) Commentaries on the Torah ( this could be the work of Christ) and details of certain passages that are not found in our current Bible

So what's the problem, now we can put this fragments together and correct the Bible can't we?

Not so simple, it would mean the change of theology / dogma of what the church had practiced for 1,675 years in Christianity and 2,000 years for orthodox Jewry. And once such information is revealed in would mean the collapse of those institutions, which had kept alive the wrong teachings.

So, what's the solution?

Reveal what is not contradicting and hide / destroy / alter what is contradicting and carry on with the existing version, who cares if mankind are misled, after all God is not punishing anyone for his crimes, yet!
.
Seems to be the policy currently practiced by most of the religious institutions, which claim that they are divinely guided.

**Ibrahim** · Jan 23, 2002, 11:41 PM

4QMMT : life and death matter!

What is this, another one of those new chips ? that will do everything for me, so I do not need to use my brains anymore?

Hey! We are dealing in scripture, so everything you will read here is related to scripture, the number 4 means it was found in the 4th cave, the letter Q means that it was found at Qumran and MMT means Miqsat Ma`ase ha-Torah. Simply put, it is the Torah. (or old Testament) (The oldest, used from the time by the sons and daughters, bothers and sisters of Aaron, meaning the true priesthood lineage)

Ok, Ok, why is it a life and death matter?

Since it is the oldest, written in Hebrew and Aramaic and found near, at the place where Christ would have lived does it not makes sense to you that any difference between that and the current form of the Torah & the Bible would mean, something gravely wrong is at hand? For Jews and Christians who had placed all their faith on the writings of the current Bible, which actually originates from a Greek source, written some 325 years later, the differences is simply a matter of life and death, get it?

How do you know there are differences? Trying to pull a fast one?

Hey, the complete scroll of Isaiah, itself had variants some of which were accepted at 1952, and imported into the RSV, but as they found the other caves later on the variations were just too great and they was also no room to turn back, to disclaim the whole thing as false, since as early as 1952, it was accepted by the scholars as true.

Now for some additional surprises!

1) The controversy is still going on as to why the rest of the scrolls cannot be published without personal commentaries by the scholars who were appointed to join and translate them only . 50 years of cooking and still only a fraction is revealed. Wonder why?

2) The New York Times for 23 January 1992 (p.A7) reports that a judge of the District Court of Jerusalem, Israel has issued an injunction to restrain the further distribution of the Facsimile Edition in any fashion, in Israel or elsewhere. Because it contains 121 line text of 4QMMT

3) Does this makes sense to you, apparently they made a mistake by letting this one get away from the scrollery , in Israel, where the rest of the originals are kept, away from the public. If you try to put two and two together the land itself was taken over by a surprise attack on Jordan by Israel, which would have original claim to the scrolls.

4) Out of the seven Christian scholars, first appointed to study the scrolls and fragments recovered from the caves, one of them had written many anti-Christian books. How could this happen? A Christian scholar turning against his own faith? He also seems to have accused his colleagues of gross cover-ups on what had been revealed and is being revealed.

Read this titles if you can get a copy: -

The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1970)

The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth (Buffalo, NY: Prometheus Books, 1984)

Do not expect it to be available easily, (Truth is always suppressed by the devil) what you can get is the numerous �approved versions� that are meant for public viewing, conveying everything is, just sweet roses.

So the million-dollar question is will this Truth ever be known ?

5) News Flash: - 21st December 1995

The Israeli�s are frantically digging at Qumran to get any other scrolls / treasure, which could still be left un-noticed before this land can be returned to their rightful owners.

**TOMASSO** · Jan 24, 2002, 05:54 AM

Ibrahim is the most fascinating Imam I know.
Ibrahim is the only Imam I know of. Please
keep posting on these and other subjects.

**The Old Man** · Jan 25, 2002, 05:25 PM

A lot of disinformation and untruths are the order of the day when ignorama discuss the dead sea scrolls. Here is just a little bit of information that hopefully will go some way in setting the record straight:

The Dead Sea Scrolls are manuscripts discovered since 1947 in a number of areas near the Dead Sea. Some 40 000 manuscript fragments have been recovered to date. The manuscripts cover basically the whole Jewish Bible except for Esther, commentaries on the Bible books, accounts as to how the communities were run, legal contracts, etc. Carbon-14 dating gives the origin of the manuscripts as between 250BC and 50AD.

The Qumran people had a special interest in the Bible books of Deuteronomy, Isaiah, Psalms, Minor Prophets, and Daniel. It is clear the community recognized the Pentateuch and the Prophets as divinely inspired.

Not in one instance did Christian and Jewish scholars of the "Old Testament" had any anxiety when the scrolls were found as to that they might prove the Bible wrong. When the discovery of the scrolls was first announced, it was believed by many that their chief importance would lie in the new light which they could throw on the history of the Old Testament text. Recently the emphasis has changed more and more from the Old Testament to the New Testament. They throw valuable light on the general community and religious practices at the time of Jesus Christ.

Many parts of the New Testament of the Bible were freshly illuminated by the scrolls. It is possible that John the Baptist had contact with the Qumran communities. Some scholars tend to equate the "Teacher of Righteousness" of the scrolls with Jesus, some with John the Baptist. The scholars saw the discovery as an opportunity to check the accuracy of the manuscripts used to compile/translate the Bible from. For example, the text of 1Q Isaiah A became available just in time for the translators of the RSV version of the Old Testament and 13 readings from the scrolls were included in the RSV. Non of these changes really significantly changed the RSV from the original RV.

It was found that the Qumran scribes used the Massoretic text (goes back to the Babylonian times), the Septuagint (based on the Hebrew text in Egypt), and the Samaritan text. All three texts were found in the scrolls. Small differences exist between these texts e.g. Deut.31v1 And Moses finished speaking all these words - Septuagint, and [i]And Moses went and spoke these words[/i[ - Massoretic.

A comparison of the Qumran manuscript of Isaiah with the Massoretic text revealed them to be extremely close in accuracy to each other: "A comparison of Isaiah 53 shows that only 17 letters differ from the Massoretic text. Ten of these are mere differences in spelling (like our "honor" and the English "honour") and produce no change in the meaning at all. Four more are very minor differences, such as the presence of a conjunction (and) which are stylistic rather than substantive. The other three letters are the Hebrew word for "light." This word was added to the text by someone after "they shall see" in verse 11. Out of 166 words in this chapter, only this one word is really in question, and it does not at all change the meaning of the passage.

The first scrolls that were translated were obviously the better preserved ones. New publications are being done as translations are completed. Presently the work is very cumbersome as the last scrolls are very brittle and/or only small fragments remain and need to be fitted as a jigsaw puzzle.

Nothing are being "hidden" and the Catholic Church do not have the final say in translation, publishing, or keeping of the scrolls.

**CocoNut** · Jan 25, 2002, 07:52 PM

Old man this is what I was lookin' for
Thanx a bunch!

The rest tried but no luck,you guys tried anyway.

------------------
Jitna Diya Sarkar Nay Mujko, Itni Meri Auqat Nahi, Yeh Saab Tumhara Karam Hai Aqa, Mujh Mein Aisi Koi Baat Nahin.

Love happens once . . .

**Ibrahim** · Jan 25, 2002, 11:10 PM

Originally posted by The Old Man:A lot of disinformation and untruths are the order of the day when ignorama discuss the dead sea scrolls. Here is just a little bit of information that hopefully will go some way in setting the record straight:

Ibrahim says : Greetings of peace to one and all

Hi old man,

Interesting indeed , don�t tell me you wrote it, because if you did, I hate to prove you false. But since people still believe things are being hidden ( published across the board) there must be a reason, don�t you think so?

Now lets get down to the bottom of these delusions by verifying empirical evidence , that will be available for all of us in a library or book store

Old man wrote: For example, the text of 1Q Isaiah A became available just in time for the translators of the RSV version of the Old Testament and 13 readings from the scrolls were included in the RSV. Non of these changes really significantly changed the RSV from the original RV.

Ibrahim says: lets see what the RSV says� (for Old man and those that need to establish the TRUTH with regards to this and the authenticity of biblical texts)
Just get a copy of the RSV 1952 edition and look at the preface

Evidence to verify :

RSV (Revised Standard Version) (published by the world publishing Co, USA) (states printed in front page) - The Holy Bible, Revised Standard edition (RSV) containing old and new testaments. Translated from the original tongues, being the version set forth AD 1611, Revised AD 1881-1885 and AD 1901, compared with the most ancient authorities and revised AD 1946-1952

Now kindly ask yourself why so many revisions? Find out the meaning of revise"� do you honestly believe that God's word needs revising by man?

Now kindly read the preface :-

"Yet the King James Version has grave defects. By the middle of the nineteen century, the development of Biblical studies and the discovery of many manuscripts more ancient than those upon which the King James Version (KJV) was based, made it manifest that these defects are so many and so serious as to call for revision of the English Translation"

Now kindly ask yourself, what does "these defects where so many and so serious" truly mean

Kindly read the complete preface for their explanations, this copy was printed in 1952, now we have newer copies with shorter preface, but they do convey this info.

Now if you turn to Mark 16, the passage will end at verse 8, and verse 9 to 20 might be written in very small text, implying that, that part about the Resurrection of Christ is doubtful and even NIV will confirm this.

Now get a Holy Bible (RSVCE) CE means catholic edition, which is different from RSV.. this is a good read for the introduction will reveal many things for instance :- " Thus the passage known as the "three heavenly Witnesses ( 1 John 5:7-8) which is in the Latin vulgate and in versions based on it , does not appear in recent Catholic editions of the New Testament"

Again " in some cases the original has not come down to us but it is still incumbent on the translator to try and get as near as possible to it by a study of the most ancient versions."

Thus Old man, all you wrote did not hold water since the publishers of the Bible are claiming otherwise and since I have given you some books to consider which were written by Christian scholars

Read this titles if you can get a copy: -

The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1970)

The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth (Buffalo, NY: Prometheus Books, 1984)

Also to add to this get a copy of
Responses to 101 Questions on the dead Sea scrolls by Joseph A. Fitzmyer, S. J ISBN 0-8091-3348-2 ( this is responses from the catholic church itself due to the conspiracy behind the scrolls)

And

The Dead Sea scriptures by Theodor H.Gaster ISBN 0-385-08859-0

If you still insist that there is NOTHING hidden, God help you, that would be your own desire and has nothing to do with the reality.

BTW I wrote those articles some ten years ago based on research and information available to me at that time and I hate to think my research was flawed. So feel free to enlighten me and I will track back my notes on that subject to see who is in error.

Best regards
Ibrahim

**The Old Man** · Jan 26, 2002, 05:27 AM

Hi Ibrahim. Yes, I did write the piece with no cut-and-paste. Yes, I still believe that there is nothing being hidden from the public about the scrolls. Some pointers to consider:

1. People believing something out of ignorance does not make what they believe true.

2. There exist many translations of the Bible today, some very good, some fairly good, and some very bad. As soon as there is a better text or information that can enhance some translations, they are used. The same with the scrolls. Nothing sinister in it, just pure simple good translation skills.

3. God's word do not need revision, but since the original word can't be heard anymore, scholars will tend to either try and be more exact (using older texts to translate from) or to translate to transmit the meaning of the word (paraphrasing).

4. The KJV is a fairly good translation done with the tools available AT THAT TIME. Since the first edition, more ancient manuscripts were found (not just the scrolls) and archeology now give better insights into the customs at the time when the original text was written. The English language also changed since the original translation - all this forced new translations that incorporate all newfound data.

5. Not in one instance does it mean that these translations differ on ANY of the prime doctrines of Christianity or Judaism. It merely clarifies some issues more. The strength of Christianity is that its doctrines and issues are found as a summary of all the books in the Bible. NO SINGLE VERSE STAND ON IT'S OWN. Any part can always be cross- reference to many other books in the Bible. I do know though of at least two translations where the translators tried to CHANGE the Bible to accommodate their doctrinal stances and ideas. Ironically, these groups of people refuse to give the translator's details for someone to follow up whether they had the ability to do these changes.

6. The issue whether Mark.16v9-20 is in the Bible DOES NOT CHANGE any part of the Christian message, beliefs or doctrine.

7. Let's look at some of the changes that were made in the RSV due to the new information of the scrolls and see in what manner the existing SV changed:

Thirteen readings of the ISAIAH A scrolls found at 1 Qumran differed enough from the texts at that time for the translators to decide to include them in the RSV. (One of the members of the Revision Committee at the time, Dr. Millar Burrows, who also voted for the adoption of these text changes has later said that some of the original text ought to have been retained and not changed - still NO BIG ISSUE). I will only look at three:

7.1. Isa.21v8 "As he cried, "A lion..." was changed to "Then he who saw cried: "Upon a watchtower I stand, O Lord..."

7.2. Isa.14v4 "How hath the oppressor ceased! The golden city ceased!" was changed to "How the oppressor has ceased, the insolent fury ceased!" The Massoretic text had a word meaning "golden city", while the Scrolls, Greek, Syriac, and Latin versions had "fury". The difference is a letter "r" instead of "d" in the texts.

7.3. Isa.60v19 "The sun shall be no more your light by day; nor for brightness shall the moon give light to you" was changed to "The sun shall be no more your light by day; nor for brightness shall the moon give light to you by night". The scrolls had "by night" in the text.

Now, I am not going to go through ALL the thirteen changes (due to time constraints). Above examples PROVES that the importance/impact in the RSV translation was not so mind-blowing. Unless you can disprove me (with proper facts), I consider the issue closed.

[This message has been edited by The Old Man (edited January 26, 2002).]

**Ibrahim** · Jan 26, 2002, 06:43 PM

Ibrahim says: Greetings of peace to one and all

Originally posted by The Old Man:Hi Ibrahim. Yes, I did write the piece with no cut-and-paste. Yes, I still believe that there is nothing being hidden from the public about the scrolls.

Ibrahim says Hi old man, belief is such a wonderful thing, for they are people who belief that they come from monkeys and others may belief in all sort of things, I cannot do anything to prevent such notions. So I have to excuse you for your belief, nevertheless a non existent conspiracy for the past 50 years is something that may be hard to hide or conjure. Even though I have given you pointers of court injunction and published books by the very scholar who was assigned to study the scrolls you have flatly claimed there is NOTHING hidden. That is a very strange Belief, indeed.

Some pointers to consider: People believing something out of ignorance does not make what they believe true.

Ibrahim says: Yes, it cuts both ways so can we say it may apply to you also, since I too went through a lot of references and research before I wrote what I wrote and I and numerous others believe that it has taken the scholars too long to realize or even release copies of the texts . I already given you the title of a book from the catholic church trying to explain the conspiracy, are you still in doubt ?

2. There exist many translations of the Bible today, some very good, some fairly good, and some very bad. As soon as there is a better text or information that can enhance some translations, they are used. The same with the scrolls. Nothing sinister in it, just pure simple good translation skills.

Ibrahim says: My friend I am talking about VERSIONS not translations. I already told you the RSV even has an RSVCE and a NEW RSV too, that is different form the RSV. The problem with the scrolls my friend is not good translations or bad translations but mostly cover-ups and commentaries that the scholars are trying to include or cook up , so that they can get it to rhyme with the current notions. BUT MOST Of ALL, IS THE FAILURE TO REVEAL THEM for public access or verification, that is causing the greatest problem. Now accepting this view will definitely be difficult for you since your faith is founded on it, but in all honesty after 50 years even the entire Isaiah scroll is not fully available to the public, that is just one scroll that was used very commonly at those times, so what about the rest and where did Esther come from? And why NO Gospel are all things that you should ponder when you want to be sincere to yourself. For me it does not matter what is cooked or covered up but this issue is what Christians have created and Christians have been arguing about and has nothing to do with Muslims.

3. God's word do not need revision, but since the original word can't be heard anymore, scholars will tend to either try and be more exact (using older texts to translate from) or to translate to transmit the meaning of the word (paraphrasing).

Ibrahim says: My friend have you any idea as to the missing verses and missing books and omissions in the versions available to Christians today? Now that is not due to translation but due to revision, editing, adding and inability to comprehend what is being conveyed even in the manuscripts. I just presented you with evidence from the RSV as published by the publishers of RSV, yet, it seems to have little value to you. Hence, little can be said if you want to brush aside what is evidently clear and acknowledged by the Biblical doctors themselves.

4. The KJV is a fairly good translation done with the tools available AT THAT TIME. Since the first edition, more ancient manuscripts were found (not just the scrolls) and archeology now give better insights into the customs at the time when the original text was written. The English language also changed since the original translation - all this forced new translations that incorporate all newfound data.

Ibrahim says Old man, there is already a NEW KJV in the market and I assure you it will differ from other versions too. If you want quotes from it, feel free to ask.

Get a copy of this book and find out why some feel the KJV is the best translation ever!

�Lets weigh the Evidence� by Barry Burton ISBN 0-9337958-17-4

5. Not in one instance does it mean that these translations differ on ANY of the prime doctrines of Christianity or Judaism.

Ibrahim says; Old man , let me give you some pointers.

-- King James
Matthew 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

-- New King James
Matthew 17:21 "However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.''

-- American Standard
Matthew 17:21 [But this kind goeth not out save by prayer and fasting.]

Ibrahim says: NOW TRY SEARCHING FOR THIS VERSE IN OTHER BIBLES and wonder where it went to

Similarly try
Matthew 18:11, Mark 7:16, Mark 11;26, Mark 15:28, Luke 23:17

Just to give you some idea and there are so many more that it is useless for me to quote them all, unless you have some interest in finding out the truth concerning them.
Also, Review this which is so very important for the trinity doctrine in Christianity

1 John 5:

-- King James
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

-- New King James
1 John 5:7 For there are three who bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

-- American Standard
1 John 5:7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

. -- New International
1 John 5:7 For there are three that testify: ??????????

-- Revised Standard
1 John 5:7 And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

Ibrahim says; Thus I am amazed that you can make such a bold claim like above.

It merely clarifies some issues more. The strength of Christianity is that its doctrines and issues are found as a summary of all the books in the Bible. NO SINGLE VERSE STAND ON IT'S OWN. Any part can always be cross- reference to many other books in the Bible.

Ibrahim says: my friend , I wonder If this will help you understand better.

- King James
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-- New King James
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

-- American Standard
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

-- Living Bible
John 3:16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son so that anyone who believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

-- New International
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

-- Revised Standard
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Ibrahim says: NOW old man TELL ME WHERE WE CAN CROSS REFERENCE THIS Verse as you claim it is possible, so that we do not make blunders as you seem to convey above!!

6. The issue whether Mark.16v9-20 is in the Bible DOES NOT CHANGE any part of the Christian message, beliefs or doctrine.

Ibrahim says : Old man what are you trying to say! That passage is concerning the events of RESURRECTION ( if this is false, than the resurrection becomes a false doctrine in Christianity) now please read the passage and think, don�t just talk without noting the points (blind faith)

Please read the whole passage that is considered an ADDITION to the Gospel!

Mark 16:

9. Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10. And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11. And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12. After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13. And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14. Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Now read the NIV

-- New International
Mark 16:9 [[The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.]]

Ibrahim says: Thus if what is being conveyed does not make any difference according to you and proven FALSE by other translators , that is indeed amazing according to me.

While you are at it, see if you can cross reference Mark 16:16 which says

16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Ibrahim says it means All the Jews will go to hell and I am sure that will alter Judaism considerably, don�t you think so?

Now, I am not going to go through ALL the thirteen changes (due to time constraints).

Ibrahim says tell you what Old man, take your time tell us what are the so called 13 variants of which you have only mentioned 3. ( if it will be easy on you , you can just quote the chapter and verse number and I will take it from there.) I will God willing show you how many more variants are found in Isaiah alone in other versions once I get to give it more thought and time., that is if you are interested.

Above examples PROVES that the importance/impact in the RSV translation was not so mind-blowing. Unless you can disprove me (with proper facts), I consider the issue closed.

Ibrahim says: Apparently you wish to look at what is comfortable to you by quoting only 3 minor issues in Isaiah and do not seem to be bothered as to why the RSV translators felt the AV had grave defects. Now if you are serious we can explore together the entire Isaiah chapter , but if you feel it will cause you grief, feel free to excuse yourself . Nevertheless your notions are ill conceived at best in light of what the Bible publishers themselves are claiming ( already given you the prove) for the need to revise the whole Bible.

Best regards
Ibrahim

**The Old Man** · Jan 27, 2002, 02:07 AM

Sorry, I posted twice. See below.

[This message has been edited by The Old Man (edited January 28, 2002).]

Announcement

Vatican, Catholic Churches

Vatican, Catholic Churches

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment