Living without God

[The Old Man]

What is the status of a person growing up on an isolated island with no recourse to any spiritual guidance in the form of books, persons, etc.?

Will this person attain "heaven"?

Will this person be led by means of his conscience?

[Girl from Quraysh]

I don't know if such a situation would truly mean living without God, many would argue that in such a circumstance one would find the presence of God stronger than if one was to live among people, living an ordinary life...

Your questions make me think of the hadith, wherein it is said that every person who is born, is born in fitrah - in a natural state, innocent and pure, and would remain in such a state until shown/taught otherwise...

[The Old Man]

Originally posted by Girl from Quraysh:
I don't know if such a situation would truly mean living without God, many would argue that in such a circumstance one would find the presence of God stronger than if one was to live among people, living an ordinary life...

Your questions make me think of the hadith, wherein it is said that every person who is born, is born in fitrah - in a natural state, innocent and pure, and would remain in such a state until shown/taught otherwise...

Hello GfQ

Do you mean the person described won't need to be taught about God? Since there is nobody he can sin against, can one suppose that he will die sinless?

[CocoNut]

Religion has reached to the vast corners of the world (universe too).

A person who has not been taught about God or of a greater existence and is left in the middle of no where; then they are pure because they know not of right and wrong. They cannot distinguish or differentiate.

You could call 'em uncivilized barbaric animals such as the Jungle boy "Tarzan" or "Mogli".

Its like holding me accountable of a law that I never knew about and was still held guilty. Rather illogical isn't it? I'd let the person off with a warning now that he she knows. Kinda like getting burnt the first time and then realizing fire burns you so you won't do it again.

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Jitna Diya Sarkar Nay Mujko, Itni Meri Auqat Nahi, Yeh Saab Tumhara Karam Hai Aqa, Mujh Mein Aisi Koi Baat Nahin.


Love happens once . . .

[TOMASSO]

Some westerners have said, ignorance of the
law does not count for innocence. This has to
do with civil law, not religious. Girl from
Quraysh is right, being beyond outside influ-ences would be a positive thing. Do Muslims
not believe in original sin?

[The Old Man]

Originally posted by TOMASSO:
Some westerners have said, ignorance of the
law does not count for innocence. This has to
do with civil law, not religious. Girl from
Quraysh is right, being beyond outside influ-ences would be a positive thing. Do Muslims
not believe in original sin?

Muslims do not accept "born-in-sin"/original sin. A baby is born pure without any sin as it couldn't sin up to that point. That is the way I understand.

CocoNut:

So what you are saying, is that NO person should try and make conttact with such person/s?

[armughal]

Allah has given all humans a BRAIN....
if they fail to seek their GOD despite having it in their heads, they themselves r responsible....

maybe such people wud not be accounted for the acts like prayers, zakat, fasting etc....
but SHIRK wud definitely put them in hell....
i mean if they take an elephant or a monkey or fire or somethng as a GOD, they will be punished....

[Ibrahim]

Originally posted by The Old Man:
Muslims do not accept "born-in-sin"/original sin. A baby is born pure without any sin as it couldn't sin up to that point. That is the way I understand.

Ibrahim says: greetings of peace to one and all

Hi Old man, this is not an issue between Muslims or Christians . The reason why Christians believe in original sin is because the church has taught them so even though it contradicts what Christ (pbuh) taught and preached as written in the Bible.

So it is now up to Christians to decide

1) to follow the church teachings

2) to follow what Moses ,Christ, and Muhammad taught ( peace be upon them)


Hot tip 1:


Matthew 11: 25. At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.


Hot tip 2:

Matthew 18: 1. At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"

2. He called a little child and had him stand among them.

3. And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.


4. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5. "And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me.


Hot tip 3:

Matthew 19:14. Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."


Hottest tip:

Mark 9: 35. Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, "If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all."

36. He took a little child and had him stand among them. Taking him in his arms, he said to them,

37. "Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me."

Ibrahim says; hence children are innocent and have no sins attached to them, they only begin to sin when they have grown sufficiently wise enough to commit them .


Best Regards
Ibrahim

99: 6 On that Day will men proceed in companies sorted out to be shown the Deeds that they (had done).

7 Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good see it!

8 And anyone who has done an atom's weight of evil shall see it.

[The Old Man]

Originally posted by Ibrahim:
Hi Old man, this is not an issue between Muslims or Christians . The reason why Christians believe in original sin is because the church has taught them so even though it contradicts what Christ (pbuh) taught and preached as written in the Bible.

Hello Ibrahim

This link is not about original sin or whether Christianity is correct or incorrect about the issue at all. If you wish to discuss it, please start a new link!

What is your view on the issue at hand in this link:

Can a person on his own without any influence or direction by any religious book or person reach spiritual unity with his Maker? Is it neccessary to try and convince or change this persons life and believes when suddenly meeting up with him?

[Changez_like]

Originally posted by The Old Man:
....
Can a person on his own without any influence or direction by any religious book or person reach spiritual unity with his Maker?

He may or may not, there is no guarantee. It might be dependent on sincerity and willingness.

Is it neccessary to try and convince or change this persons life and believes when suddenly meeting up with him?

Islam asks you to deliver the message of Allah SWT, convey the message and you are done, it would be upto him to beleive or not. If he does not beleive, he is sinner.

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May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

[The Old Man]

Changez_like: Thanks for staying on the topic.

He may or may not, there is no guarantee. It might be dependent on sincerity and willingness.

How will this man know he is on the right path, or is there no guarantee for anyone at all?

Islam asks you to deliver the message of Allah SWT, convey the message and you are done, it would be upto him to beleive or not. If he does not beleive, he is sinner.

I think most religions work as you said. Doesn't this actually refute the whole issue if he allready has made his peace with his Maker?

[Hasnain]

Originally posted by GFQ:
I don't know if such a situation would truly mean living without God, many would argue that in such a circumstance one would find the presence of God stronger than if one was to live among people, living an ordinary life...
Your questions make me think of the hadith, wherein it is said that every person who is born, is born in fitrah - in a natural state, innocent and pure, and would remain in such a state until shown/taught otherwise...

double-ditto!

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"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."

[Ibrahim]

Originally posted by The Old Man:
Hello Ibrahim This link is not about original sin or whether Christianity is correct or incorrect about the issue at all. If you wish to discuss it, please start a new link!

Ibrahim says Greetings of Peace to one and all.

Hi Old Man, I know, that is why I did not reply to Tomasso but you addressed it and promoted misconceptions about it, as such I merely corrected you as well as guided Tomasso to understand the TRUTH. Now you owe me a cup of coffee

What is your view on the issue at hand in this link:
Can a person on his own without any influence or direction by any religious book or person reach spiritual unity with his Maker?

Ibrahim says Did you think, your Creator created you without fail safe mechanisms?
Surely Not! God is ever awake and does not rest on Sundays and nothing He has created is unaware of Him. It is like having additional memory chips implanted in all His creations which will direct and redirect him/her/them/it , no matter what.

So you may wonder what I am talking about.

Let us read:

Qur’an 91: 7 By the Soul and the proportion and order Given to it;

8 And its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right;

9 Truly he succeeds that purifies it

10 And he fails that corrupts it!


The same message was delivered to the Jews and Christians too………

Duet 30: 6. The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

Duet 30: 11. Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.

12. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?"

13. Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?"


14. No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.


Ibrahim says: This means The Creator embedded all that one need to know the day you were conceived in your womb , as such all human beings are Muslims in the womb and born as Muslims and remain as Muslims in childhood till they get corrupted into varying faiths . That is why a child that dies before being corrupted enters heaven even in Hinduism a child is not burned but buried whereas all other ordinary Hindus are burned .

Then even though some will be misguided and end up with varying beliefs, the Creator ensured redirection all the time by appointing another soul ( so to speak of, or say another memory chip whose function is only to redirect) for him.

And this is revealed to us from………..

Qur’an 75: 1 I do call to witness the Resurrection Day;

2 And I do call to witness the self-reproaching spirit; (eschew Evil).


Matthew 5: 8. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.

As such even though the Creator gave an Instruction manual to all of mankind He also ensured it was written in the heart so to speak of. Thus the loss of the Instruction manual will not cause man to fail or recognize His obligations, Towards his Creator.

But when men knowingly fail to heed his own conscience , the devil is quick to mislead him.

Read!

Matthew 13: 19. When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path.

Qur’an 114: 1 Say: I seek refuge with the Lord and Cherisher of Mankind

2 The King (or Ruler) of Mankind

3 The Allah (or Judge) of Mankind

4 From the mischief of the Whisperer (of Evil) who withdraws (after his whisper)

5 (The same) who whispers into the hearts of mankind

6 Among Jinns and among Men.

NEVERTHELESS , once a human being knows that they is an “instruction manual” present and it only guides to the TRUTH, there can be NO EXCUSE for him, not adhering to it. As such his own hand and feet will bear witness against him. Take a good look at the CDROM on your hands and feet, that will testify against you, if you are in doubt.

Is it neccessary to try and convince or change this persons life and believes when suddenly meeting up with him?

Ibrahim says. Yes, it is necessary for those who know to warn those who do not know. That too is part of man’s destiny and another check and balance mechanism established by the Creator to redirect those who are in error.

Hope that answers your questions.

Best regards
Ibrahim.

constantly choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil




[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited January 21, 2002).]

[The Old Man]

Originally posted by Ibrahim:
Hope that answers your questions.

It does bring your view to the table, yes.

I think I now have a clear view as to how Islam views the hypothetical question as per your, GfQ, and Changez_like's input. Thanks.