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    Christian Jihad

    http://abc.net.au/religion/news/fr-christianjihad.htm


    Christian Jihad

    Dayna Curry and Heather Mercer are the two Americans recently released by the Taliban after being held and tried for spreading Christianity in Afghanistan. They are usually referred to in the media by the unassuming title "aid workers", but in fact they're part of a wider network of Christian groups in the US whose primary mission is aggressively to spread the gospel in Islamic countries.

    These groups are well-organised, highly motivated and not short of cash. In addition to Shelter Now - the group that sent Curry and Mercer to Afghanistan, along with Australians Diana Thomas and Peter Bunch - they include Youth With A Mission, the Southern Baptist Convention, and the 10/40 Window group, who see their principal targets as the countries between ten degrees north and forty degrees south of the equator - what they call "The Resistant Belt", incorporating "billions of spiritually impoverished souls".

    Since their return to the US, Dayna Curry and Heather Mercer have admitted that they were, in fact, spreading Christianity among their Afghani hosts, and it appears that their efforts were part of a concerted push by American evangelical groups to wage "spiritual warfare" against the unconverted followers of Muhammad - a campaign that has acquired a whole new set of meanings since the attacks of September 11th .

    Deborah Caldwell is the Senior Religion Producer at Belief.net, and she's been documenting this phenomenon for some time. She calls this military-style campaign a "Christian jihad", and she's talking to David Rutledge about its evangelical holy warriors.

    Deborah Caldwell: I think these groups are all in touch with each other in some way or another, I think the Internet has absolutely accelerated that. There are discussion groups that they can get on to - I mean, I ran across one website in which one man was basically acting like a broker, to help people smuggle The Jesus Film into Muslim countries, and he had set up some kind of network in which to do that, and he was connected with all of these various Christian groups.

    So, is there some kind of 'Command Central'? No, but do they all know each other? Absolutely, yes.

    David Rutledge: And Shelter Now estimate that they've distributed Christian material to some 334 million Muslims. Do you credit that claim?

    Deborah Caldwell: To be honest with you, the guy I interviewed who gave me that figure was somewhat disappointed that they didn't have more missionaries overseas in Muslims countries, and that they hadn't evangelised more. So I actually think that the figure is probably pretty accurate.

    When they say "evangelise", the thing to keep in mind is that it's the "carpet-bombing" approach to evangelism. Because they count when they've given out a tract, when they've shared the Jesus story, when they've shown The Jesus Film - and they're relentless about this, so I think it's possible that if they can trek it into somebody's house somewhere out in the middle of nowhere and get a group of villagers to watch it, then they can tally that up as part of their total.

    David Rutledge: They're also saying that the number of missionaries in Muslims countries has quadrupled since 1990.

    Deborah Caldwell: Exactly. And that's because of a concerted effort; it actually has a millenarian streak to it, aiming at the year 2000.

    In 1989, a group of people got together and decided that they were going to try to spread the Good News by the year 2000, and they gave themselves this 10-year window in which to do it. And the Southern Baptist Convention got involved in this - that's the largest Protestant group in the United States, with 15 million members - they completely reconfigured their international mission in service of this goal.

    But I think that towards the end of the 1990s, it got more intense toward Islam and Muslims, because they began to see them more as a political threat.

    David Rutledge: I've heard that there are seminary programs in the US devoted to training specifically for ministry to Muslims, is that right?

    Deborah Caldwell: That's exactly right; there's a seminary in Fort Worth, Texas, that has such a program.
    And they try to do two things: they are (they say) training evangelical Christians to "understand" their Muslim neighbours, and in the United States, the number of Muslims is estimated as between 3 million and 8 million. It's definitely a growing group of people, and before September 11th, a lot of Americans thought, "oh, this is really interesting, we've got this large group of people and we don't really know that much about them".

    And I think there was some of that going on with the Southern Baptist Convention, they genuinely did want to try to help equip their ministers to understand Muslims and therefore help their own parishioners to understand them. But part of it was also wanting to figure out ways to evangelise specifically to Muslims.

    David Rutledge: Well, 2001 has certainly brought its own unique opportunities: a spokesman from one of the evangelical groups - Word of Hope - thinks that the involvement of Muslims with September 11th has "weakened the faith" of many other Muslims, and that this presents a golden opportunity for Christian groups to spread the gospel. Do you think there's a sense among American Muslims that their faith has been weakened or compromised?

    Deborah Caldwell: To be honest, no. I talk to lots of Muslims as well as Christians, and I don't think their faith is any bit weakened by this; I think in some ways their faith is strengthened.

    Some of it is just - as it would be for any of us - a sort of sad defensiveness. But a lot of them are trying to delve deeper into their faith, to figure out what it is that's essential, at the core of Islam. Because I think they feel a need to defend it, and so they need to know it as well as they possibly can. They've probably got tons and tons of Christian neighbours who are asking them "what's going on with your faith?" So the discussion boards on our website really don't reflect a loss of faith at all; they reflect Muslims being very "out there" about defending their faith.

    David Rutledge: Can you tell me about how these Christian groups operate - we know that they're placed in situations where they can not just get jobs in Islamic countries, but where they can make friends and win the trust of local Muslims - and these are known as "tunnelling" techniques. Can you tell me more about them?

    Deborah Caldwell: They tend to be very secretive about their techniques - and they're right; if these people are found out, then their lives are endangered, just like Dayna Curry and Heather Mercer's were.

    But some of the things I have heard are that American Christians will get themselves admitted to a university in one of these countries, ostensibly to study something unrelated to religion. Then they will establish relationships with local people, and then maybe invite a couple of people over to their house, and the next thing you know, they're putting the video of The Jesus Film into the VCR, or they're handing over some tracts written in the local language that they just happen to have, or they've got the New Testament in the local language.

    David Rutledge: Heather Mercer and Dayna Curry have admitted that 20% of the Taliban's charges against them were valid. So what was that 20%, what did they do as evangelising Christians in Afghanistan?

    Deborah Caldwell: My understanding is that they went to someone's house, and they showed The Jesus Film. And they say that they just happened to be talking about their faith, because that's what people naturally do there, and these people asked them questions about their faith, and asked them about Christianity, and so they just had to answer. And I think they also gave a boy a book about Jesus.

    David Rutledge: Do you think that Curry and Mercer - or any other people from these organisations - might be a little more uncomfortable now about this kind of approach - not just because of the dangers for proselytising Christians, but because of the danger that it passes on to non-religious aid groups? Is there any soul-searching among evangelical groups about their methods?

    Deborah Caldwell: I think before they were released by the Taliban: no, I don't think there was any soul-searching about it. But I've heard recently that this is now starting to become a conversation among evangelicals here in the United States.

    Partly because they're putting local Muslims in danger, partly because they're putting secular aid workers in danger - and partly, they're examining themselves and saying "hey, maybe we really shouldn't be breaking the law". But I think that the impulse to evangelise is so strong among evangelicals - after all, that's what they're all about - that it will be very hard for them not to keep doing that.

    David Rutledge: Another thing that worries people about this fervent evangelism is that it involves an implicit devaluation of Islam. And of course this was made quite explicit recently by Franklin Graham, who came out and said that Islam was "wicked, violent and not of the same God". How characteristic of these groups is this sort of contempt for Islam?

    Deborah Caldwell: I think it's really characteristic; most of these groups are fairly vocal about it.

    It's in all of their literature, and I notice on the discussion boards on our website, that there are a lot of Christians who have no trouble saying that Islam is evil, or that it incites people to evil.

    They understand, of course, and will say that American Muslims can be (and in most cases are) completely peace-loving, wonderful people. But that doesn't mean they think the Muslim faith is OK, because they really don't. And they're having trouble with the whole question of pluralism here in the United States, because President Bush has been so open and welcoming to Muslims - and he was like this even before September 11th, he always talked about Muslims in the context of the Abrahamic faiths: Judaeo-Christian and Muslim all together in the same breath. And I know from talking to evangelicals that they're struggling with that.

    David Rutledge: We have to admit that there's a degree of courage in what they do. But of course since September 11th, the stakes have become a lot higher, and from now on there's going to be a whole new degree of courage required for this kind of evangelism. Do you think it's going to make Christian groups bolder or more cautious about what they're doing?

    Deborah Caldwell: I think they'll be more cautious in talking about it. But it will probably become even more a badge of honour. I really see Dayna Curry and Heather Mercer as becoming cult celebrities here among evangelicals.

    I actually think that they're going to become the next Cassie Bernall- you know the girl; the myth goes that she said "yes, I believe in Christ" and was then shot by Dylan Klebold -

    David Rutledge: This was during the Columbine High School massacre?

    Deborah Caldwell: Right. And that willingness to stand up for one's belief is held in incredibly high regard among these people. And especially it's because Curry and Mercer are very appealing, and because they survived, that I think they'll become celebrities.

    David Rutledge: They'll certainly become acknowledged as "veterans in the field", and we've seen a lot of rather worrying war rhetoric coming from people like Luis Bush, founder of the 10/40 Window group, who's said that "if we are to storm the enemy's territory, we must put on the full armour of God and fight with the weapons of spiritual warfare" and so on - you've gone so far as to call it a "Christian jihad".

    Deborah Caldwell: Exactly. They call this "spiritual warfare", and they consider it biblical and holy. And I think they'll go on doing that; they hold this sort of aggressive Christianity in such high regard.

    David Rutledge: It's interesting, because we're hearing a lot about the emergence of a radical, so-called "pre-medieval" Islam. And I wonder if this is going to be countered, now, by an equally radical "pre-medieval" Christianity, what you might call a "Roman" Christianity. Like the early Christians, who walked willingly into the lions' jaws and sang hymns as they met their martyrdom. Do you think this kind of thing is going to be revived?

    Deborah Caldwell: That's a really interesting idea. I think that's really possible. And I'll tell you, I think the places where it's most likely to happen are places like Sudan and Nigeria, places where there are Christians and Muslims together in constant battle with each other. And I mean physical battle, not just getting on Internet message boards and screaming at each other.

    They're killing each other, and I think it's tragic enough that it's happening there, and I can't imagine it happening here yet, but I do think that the rhetoric is going to be ratcheted up higher and higher, and I think that real martyrdom will be glorified wherever it occurs.

    #2
    Does any one know why Pope John Paul II went to Centeral Asian States Visit right before USA Attack on Afghanistan?

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Qaasim:
      Does any one know why Pope John Paul II went to Centeral Asian States Visit right before USA Attack on Afghanistan
      Ibrahim says: Salaams to all

      One cannot claim to know for sure since these are secrets of the Vatican state. The smallest state in the world wielding the largest wealth under its hidden pockets actively financing the production of weapons of mass destruction for the return of Christ.

      What seems to be taking place is that the Pope has been trying to gather his flock for the great war (as Muslim know it) and had in his tenure made it a point to visit all the nations that are under his foot (the whole world) and by kissing the soil of those lands the Pope is purifying those lands for the return of Christ.

      This had been going on for the past 20 years and may go on for another 10 to 20, since they are not sure as to the exact time this millennium ends or begins for the anticipated return of Christ.

      In this time frame they had brought all the leaders of the infidels under their control and removed/locked up all the weapons and teeth that the infidels may have phase by phase. Even their wealth and glitter has been siphoned off in these years to remove any teeth that it may give to the infidels.

      Who are these infidels?

      They are mostly located in the 10/40 window as it is known http://www.ad2000.org/1040ovr.htm


      Luis Bush, founder of the 10/40 Window group, said "if we are to storm the enemy's territory, we must put on the full Armour of God and fight with the weapons of spiritual warfare"
      In 1989, a group of people got together and decided that they were going to try to spread the Good News by the year 2000, and they gave themselves this 10-year window in which to do it. And the Southern Baptist Convention got involved in this - that's the largest Protestant group in the United States, with 15 million members – they completely reconfigured their international mission in service of this goal.

      Comment


        #4
        Is not this True that Uzbec government announced its full support to USA by all means as soon as Pope John Paul II finishes his tour to that country?

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Qaasim:
          Is not this True that Uzbec government announced its full support to USA by all means as soon as Pope John Paul II finishes his tour to that country?
          Ibrahim says: Yes! You have a valid point and that is also the case in many Muslim countries who received envoys ( not necessarily the Pope) and or went down on their knees after the sept 11. for instance even Philippines a catholic country received a 100 million for tagging along and providing false evidence and promoting it in the media that there was a plot hatched by the Muslims to attack WTC

          If you think, this is surprising you may be more surprised to learn US WARPLANES ATTACKED TARGETS IN YEMEN

          MARIB, YEMEN (Institute for Islamic Research and Studies): Since the morning of Tuesday 18 December 2001, US warplanes have been bombing the Husoun village in Marib, Yemen, situated about 200km South East of Sanaa. The reason for this bombing is due to the refusal of the Ale-Jalal tribe to hand over Mujahideen to the Yemeni Government which was given a list of names by the US Government just before Ramadan began (mid-November 2001).

          Was salaam
          Ibrahim

          Let me attach a recent article concerning Uzbekistan by ININ: -

          Note, Uzbekistan has one of the worst anti-Muslim human rights record on the planet, so it is a natural ally of the US. Basically what happens is the US bribes Uzbekistan to work with them to "fight terror" which means crush Islam in plain English. In return, the US will keep silent about Uzbekistan's horrid human rights record.

          Note also the other conditions placed on the "aid." What will happen is that Uzbekistan will become so dependent on this cash inflow, that they will be forced to do anything the
          US tells them to do. In addition, you can be sure Uzbek President Islam Karimov will pocket a few million for himself and his cronies.

          Hypocrites are lining up all over the Muslim world to get the cash and sell out their fellow Muslims, but the also have ensured themselves hell for eternity unless they repent, so they might as well have their good time now, because it will soon be over.

          ININ


          >Uzbekistan to receive $100 million in U.S. aid for help in anti-terror campaign
          >The Associated Press
          >
          >TASHKENT, Uzbekistan (AP) The United States is allocating $100 million in
          >aid for Uzbekistan for its support of the U.S.-led military operation in neighboring Afghanistan, a U.S. congressman said Saturday. The aid to the Central Asian nation so far has been targeted at military training and ensuring security, but will eventually expand to other sectors, U.S. Rep. Jim Kolbe, R-Ariz., told reporters in the Uzbek capital, Tashkent.
          >
          > Kolbe met with Uzbek President Islam Karimov on Saturday and praised him
          >for being so quick to offer use of an air base for the military campaign
          >in Afghanistan, saying it set an example for other countries.
          More than
          >1,000 U.S. troops have been deployed to Uzbekistan since October.
          >
          >In return, Karimov's government has hoped for aid and an end to criticism
          >of its human rights record.


          > continued at http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20020112_1281.html


          Comment


            #6
            Ibrahim, I was not much surprised by all this but I wanted to see if some one else see the same way as I see. Because, to me, Pope John Paul II goes to the other countries, apparently for peace, but actually to pave the path (Christian jihad) for americans and/or for britians so that they can get clear grounds for their ill objectives.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Qaasim:
              Ibrahim, I was not much surprised by all this but I wanted to see if some one else see the same way as I see. Because, to me, Pope John Paul II goes to the other countries, apparently for peace, but actually to pave the path (Christian jihad) for americans and/or for britians so that they can get clear grounds for their ill objectives.
              Ibrahim says: salaams to all

              Dear Qaasim, exactly what I am saying too, but not so direct or restricting this to only his visit to Uzbekistan since this plan has been in operation for more then 50 years. One should not be surprised for all that is taking place is part of the revelations revealed in the Book of Revelations ( last book of the Bible)

              If you go back in time to the past activities on a global perceptive, The partition of countries and appointments of its leaders and kings, the establishment of Israel all had to do with the establishment of the second temple in Jerusalem and the Christian jihad. They are still waiting for the sign one of which is the sacred cow, Only if a Red Heifer is first sacrificed and its ashes used for purification can the plan be successful. Sadly the one they had recently was not the one ( had blemishes) so, the cow hunting is on Maybe the cloned one in their desperation, only Allah (swt) knows

              Coming to the Pope, even the very appointment of this pope was on
              account of the mysterious death of the earlier just elected pope.

              Most of all, Only this pope visited the most number of countries in Vatican history and it had all to do the millennium ( Christian jihad for the anticipated return of Christ which will reach feverish peak every 1000 years) and gathering of the flock’s as well as ironing out past differences between Christians for the conquest of the infidels in the 10/40 window

              Some other matters that you should consider are

              1) War on Iraq ( foretold in the Bible)

              2)the Y2k hype which was timed to create chaos (devastations can be easily blamed on the computer) and the amount of money it generated

              3) the economic collapse of Asia

              4) the sudden changes in leadership

              eg: Russia, Indonesia, Pakistan, Jordan etc.

              5)the current war on terrorism scam

              Comment


                #8
                Ibrahim, you are stepping into very dangerous
                subject matter here. The pope is not aligned
                with the protestant 10/40 group. If you read
                the Bible, not some reinterpretation of it,
                you will find some amazing facts. Read it.
                The Catholic Church might need to be watched.
                The restoration of the temple is not on the
                agenda, I think. This is more of a protestant
                objective. The wealth of the Catholic Church
                is not what you say. Fear the Zionists more.
                That is in the Bible. Do not spread these
                lies. The pope has concern for humanity. He
                went to Central Asia for higher reasons. Do
                not insult this man. He does not deserve it.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by TOMASSO:
                  Ibrahim, you are stepping into very dangerous subject matter here. The pope is not aligned with the protestant 10/40 group. If you read the Bible, not some reinterpretation of it, you will find some amazing facts. Read it.
                  Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all

                  Hi Tomasso,

                  Thanks for the advice; I seem to deal with danger all the time I know that the 10/40 group are protestants just as other groups may be associated with Catholicism. ( just visit Ireland to find out both sides of the picture) Any way I am mostly aware by the Grace of God as what is in the Bible yet it would be interesting to hear from you what exactly that I should know about it.

                  The Catholic Church might need to be watched.
                  Ibrahim says: why? Or do you think the Protestants are harmless?

                  The restoration of the temple is not on the agenda, I think. This is more of a protestant objective.
                  Ibrahim says: without the restoration of the temple there can be no return of Christ. So It is part and parcel of Christian doctrine immaterial of the denomination. And is encouraged and actively promoted by Zionists although they have their own agenda, once they have their way and achieved the construction after the desecration and demolition of the Muslim sites, the Christians will be branded as gentiles and given the boot.

                  The wealth of the Catholic Church is not what you say.
                  Ibrahim says: that would be an under statement when you understand that the Catholics have a hierarchy and existed before the protestant movements and they have been collecting tithes and they still siphon off a major part of the collections globally to Vatican treasuries.

                  Fear the Zionists more.
                  Ibrahim says: buddy, I fear Allah (swt) more, not man or jinn and mankind or jinn can only harm me in the body and cannot touch my soul, not here not ever.


                  That is in the Bible.
                  Ibrahim says : what is in the Bible?

                  Do not spread these lies.
                  Ibrahim says: what lies are you talking about?

                  {quote] The pope has concern for humanity. [/quote]

                  Ibrahim says; sure he does and that is why they remain silent when the killing is done by their flock for their cause but send in the aid workers and human rights activists to cry foul when their flocks are being persecuted.

                  He went to Central Asia for higher reasons. Do not insult this man. He does not deserve it.
                  Ibrahim says: care to enlighten me more as to the higher reason, I am always willing to learn things which I did not know in the past. As to what he deserves you are right, only Allah (swt) knows that, but yet we have eyes to see and ears to hear and we have witnessed the double standards once too often.

                  Best regards
                  Ibrahim

                  If clouds remain in the mind, water will fall from the eyes.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by TOMASSO:
                    Fear the Zionists more.
                    That is in the Bible.
                    Dear Tomasso:
                    Can you please tell us that why would a Muslim fear the Zionists more? While history tells us different story.

                    Muslims never had any Holocausts done. Muslims never massacre Jews in Mass.
                    Holocausts (which I doubted ever happened but if the history of Holocausts is true then) were great acts of Great and peaceful Christians, not the Muslims and also it was Christians who killed Jews in Mass during both WWs and cut them into pieces like sheep.

                    In my view, Christians should be the one who should fear the Zionists more because if Christians think that Jews have forgotten the Holocausts and mass killing during WWI and WWII, then they are just non-sense.

                    The pope has concern for humanity. He
                    went to Central Asia for higher reasons. Do
                    not insult this man. He does not deserve it.
                    We do respect him as Christian leader but my friend, it is not only one person in the world who doubts Mr. Pope's so called peace visits, there are so many.




                    [This message has been edited by Qaasim (edited January 14, 2002).]

                    Comment


                      #11
                      The Nazis were pagans. The triumph of the will is not the submission to God. They were
                      anti-Communists, so they fought the Godless
                      Communists so they could not move further
                      into Europe. The protestants are not aligned
                      with Catholics per se. Ibrahim, what proof do
                      you have the Catholic church is involved in
                      the procurement of arms anywhere? This is a
                      lie. Christianity by it's creed does not
                      stoke war. The crusades have been over for
                      a long time. I know Ibrahim is an Imam. I am
                      not a scholar of religion, but see where you
                      are taking this. You are anticipating a war
                      between religions having the final solution.
                      This is interesting. If you are looking for
                      the return of The Son of God, does Islam say
                      that the temple must be restored? As regards
                      the Pope's visit to Kazakhstan, he went to
                      speak to the Catholic population there. There
                      are many fanatical muslims in the region. He
                      also went to talk peace. He was invited by
                      Nazarbayev.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by TOMASSO:
                        The protestants are not aligned with Catholics per se. Ibrahim,
                        Ibrahim says: Greetings of peace to one and all

                        Hi TOMASSO!,
                        The Protestants are called protestants because they are in dispute with the catholic dogma BUT they together with the Catholic Christians also follow the same bible and have the same prophesies. So they will have to play the game as per their sacred texts.

                        Now Kindly read the Book of Revelations for knowing what game they have to play.


                        what proof do you have the Catholic church is involved in the procurement of arms anywhere?

                        Ibrahim says: wait a minute can you tell me where I said the catholic church is procuring arms . Now since that is settled. Just check the budget of the Christian countries and see what they are allocating yearly for defense. Why such a requirement for countries like US, England, Nato etc. Ask yourself who is involved in producing weapons of mass destruction in this planet. When their enemy is?

                        Do the research on who is financing companies involved in the production of weaponry. Also read

                        1) Vatican billions ISBN 0-937958-16-6 by Avro Manhattan

                        2) 50 years in the church of Rome ISBN0-937958-21-2 by Charles Chiniquy


                        This is a lie
                        Ibrahim says; To you it must be but not to me or the Christians who call themselves protestants and publish the above works.


                        Christianity by it's creed does not stoke war.
                        Ibrahim says: Note according to these texts , Read!


                        [said Jesus]! [Luk. 19:27] For these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, BRING THEM HERE AND SLAY THEM BEFORE ME.

                        [Luk.14:26] If any one comes to me and does not HATE his own father and mother and
                        wife, and children, and brothers and sisters yes and even his own life: he
                        cannot be my disciple.


                        [Gal. 2:15] Paul said, "We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners."


                        [Gal. 4:22] For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave, and by a free women. BUT WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURE SAY? "CAST OUT THE SLAVE AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF SLAVE SHALL NOT INHERIT WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN" SO, BRETHREN WE ARE NOT CHILDREN OF THE SLAVE BUT OF THE FREE WOMAN."

                        If this seems shocking and you believe Christians would not be following these texts kindly visit http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/3470/persec.htm
                        (Summarised from Vlasis Rassias' book "DEMOLISH THEM..", published in Greek, Athens 2000 (2nd edition), Anichti Poli Editions, ISBN 960-7748-20-4)


                        The crusades have been over for a long time.
                        Ibrahim says : My friend, the crusade cannot be over, it will only be over when the Christians discard the Bible and start excepting the truth as to what is being conveyed in the Bible.


                        I know Ibrahim is an Imam.

                        Ibrahim says; LOL! you seem to know too much . do you know Imam means?

                        I am not a scholar of religion, but see where you are taking this. You are anticipating a war between religions having the final solution.
                        Ibrahim says: maybe that is the problem, you need to find out what the Bible teaches


                        Here let me give you more clues.


                        Rev 6: 11. Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.


                        Rev 9: 16. The number of the mounted troops was two hundred million. I heard their number.

                        17. The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur.

                        18. A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths.


                        Rev 13: 10. If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

                        If you need more feel free to ask!

                        This is interesting. If you are looking for the return of The Son of God,
                        Ibrahim says : My friend I am talking about the Bible and not what I think or may want to think.


                        does Islam say that the temple must be restored?
                        Ibrahim says: feel free to discuss this with the Jews and Christians at your own leisure.

                        As regards the Pope's visit to Kazakhstan, he went to speak to the Catholic population there. There are many fanatical muslims in the region. Healso went to talk peace. He was invited by Nazarbayev.
                        Ibrahim says: I am sure he did exactly as you said

                        But wait, the pope and church had nothing to do with this ………………

                        Ultras burn Buddhist temple in Tripura

                        Agartala, April 10: A Buddhist temple and several huts of the Chakma community were ransacked and torched by all Tripura Tiger Force insurgents in Dhalai district of Tripura, police said on Tuesday.

                        A group of ATTF insurgents raided Taichakma village on Sunday night and ransacked and set ablaze a thatched Buddhist temple, police said quoting delayed reports.

                        Villagers who tried to extinguish the flames were severely beaten up by the ultras who then set ablaze 13 huts belonging to five chakma families, police said.

                        Earlier, insurgents of National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT), which had served a notice in the hill areas last year warning of stern action against villagers who practise any other religion except Christianity, had on December five ransacked a Buddhist temple and took away scriptures and the idol in Almara village of south Tripura district. (PTI)
                        http://www.expressindia.com/news/apr10/nation6.html Tuesday, April 10, 2001


                        or have you heard about…………..

                        Mizoram has shut its doors to any possible return of over 45,000 Reang migrants who had to flee to neighbouring Tripura and Assam to escape mainly Christian missionary-backed atrocities and forcible conversions

                        Ibrahim says: If this was done by the Muslims the whole word would know about it , every hour if possible, don’t we?


                        So much for honesty don’t you think so?

                        Regards
                        Ibrahim


                        "When I said during my presidential bid that I would only bring Christians and Jews into the government, I hit a firestorm. `What do you mean?' the media challenged me. `You're not going to bring atheists into the government? How dare you maintain that those who believe in the Judeo Christian values are better qualified to govern America than Hindus and Muslims?' My simple answer is, `Yes, they are.'" --from Pat Robertson's "The New World Order,"

                        Comment


                          #13
                          These eastern "christians" are renegades. If
                          they practice what you say, they are doing it
                          for other reasons. Christ never commanded to
                          kill in his name. WRONG version of the Bible,
                          me thinks. So called christian countries are
                          secular. They do nothing in the name of religion overtly. Pat Robertson is not one of
                          the respectable ministers that resides in the
                          USA. Jesus never instructed us to hate any-
                          one. We must not love our families more than
                          God, by His instruction. What does LOL mean?
                          The interesting part in the Biblical Book to
                          which you are referring to is about certain
                          "bad" Jews. Also disturbing is the bit about
                          the nation(s) that embody evil in commerce. I
                          did not see the stories alluded to in the first part of my reply. They did not make the
                          American media. This fact is not surprizing to me. Media blackout does exist here and I
                          don't like it. I agree any bad behavior on the part of muslims gets different treatment
                          in the states. I am not in absolute opposition to your point of view, per se. In
                          fact this ability to converse across cultures
                          is most intriging. I did not go into these
                          posts to cause trouble, despite what might be
                          expected. I have read many posts here and I
                          have judged you to be well informed in some
                          areas. Thanks for coresponding.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by TOMASSO:
                            These eastern "christians" are renegades. If they practice what you say, they are doing it
                            for other reasons.
                            Ibrahim says : Greetings of peace to one and all

                            My friend I cannot change your perception which seems to be based more on your desires and not the reality. Easter Christians ? hmm so they must be western , northern and southern Christians too : ). How about the other 30, 000 (?) denominations, where do they fit in?

                            The reality is, the Pope was and is silent even though the American (Christians without any valid evidence) have killed no less than 4000 innocent afghan Muslim civilians and continue bombing and terrorizing others with their mighty war machinery claimg it is just? Is it just in Christianity to do that?

                            For your info the catholic Christians in my on town salvage ( kill them without reason) Muslims with impunity all the time

                            Read what happens in the Streets of the only catholic country in Asia fashioned in the foot steps of USA.

                            1. CASE DETAILS

                            June 8, 2000, at about 5:30 pm, two male Muslims were accosted in the street by 10 policemen of the Manila Western Police District in one of the the capital's busiest districts, Quiapo. The two Muslims, Esmael Omar, age 36, and Akmad Samid, age 38, were summarily accused by the policemen of being "MILF terrorists" intending "to bomb public places in Manila."


                            Witnesses say that the two surprised Muslims vehemently denied the accusation and told the policemen that they were in Manila to apply for work abroad. The policemen, however, insisted that the Muslims were "terrorists" and so proceeded to summarily execute them in full view of many witnesses. Reports state that the two Muslims kneeled down pleading innocence and begged mercy for their lives but the same policemen shot them in cold-blood.

                            Esmael Omar was shot 25 times in all parts of the body while Akmad Samid received 2 fatal shots.

                            After the brutal shooting of the two Muslims, the police brought their bodies not to the nearest hospital in the district but to one which was farther away in another district. The Muslims were pronounced dead on arrival.


                            The summary execution of the two in the very heart of Manila triggered massive protests among the Muslim residents of the city as well as human rights groups. Even the mayor of Manila, Lito Atienza, after hearing the testimonies of many witnesses, was aghast at the brutal and arbitrary fashion the police executed the two innocents. The policemen, meanwhile, claim that the two Muslims were killed in a shoot-out and that they were terrorists. Subsequent investigations made by the authorities revealed that the two did not even have powder burns on their fingers and that no bullets were found on the alleged electric posts where, according to the police, they had sought cover during the alleged shoot-out. Moreover, hundreds of witnesses said there was no shoot-out and that the two Muslims were shot while kneeling down.

                            Meanwhile, relatives of the dead Muslims have appealed to the Philippine Commission on Human Rights to investigate the case thoroughly. A sister of one of the murdered Muslims, Esmael Omar, showed the media and investigating bodies documents which proved that the two were overseas workers who were applying for other jobs abroad. As indicated by the documents, they were on their way home from the job recruitment agency office when they were accosted by the policemen and then shot in a cold-blooded manner.


                            Christ never commanded to kill in his name. WRONG version of the Bible,
                            me thinks.
                            Ibrahim says: who said Christ said that? But that is what is written in the Bible, are you doubting my quotes? which version of the Bible you want me quote from, and I can quote for you from your favorite version , if that will please you.

                            So called christian countries are secular. They do nothing in the name of religion overtly.
                            Ibrahim says; brother ! I live in a catholic country and the amounts of crimes, rapes, murders, extra judicial killings, kidnappings are mostly done by the Christians but none of it will be published internationally unless it had something to do with Muslims or Islam.

                            Pat Robertson is not one of the respectable ministers that resides in the
                            USA.
                            Ibrahim says; have you heard of the crusades and witch burnings in your life time, guess who were behind them?


                            Jesus never instructed us to hate any-one.
                            Ibrahim says: that is an erroneous statement for all prophets were commanded to teach their followers to hate evil. And Christ in particular came to separate the good Jews from the evil Jews.

                            Read, Romans 12: 9. Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.

                            We must not love our families more than God, by His instruction.

                            Ibrahim says: kindly find out How Christ lived in Qumran and how that community ensured only the true believers will be part of that community and not anyone else. For your info any person who wanted to be his follower had to undergo a two year trial period, living in separation in caves only after this two year trials one is allowed to the fellowship of Christ. Where he had to renounce all worldly possessions to the community and become part of the community.

                            What does LOL mean?
                            Ibrahim says: “laughing out loud” Meant your remark sounded funny.


                            The interesting part in the Biblical Book to which you are referring to is about certain "bad" Jews.
                            Ibrahim says: can you tell me when in history of the Jews or Israel there had 200 million troops or does it not seems realistic to you that the Christian world order of today can reach this figure. ?

                            Rev 9: 16. The number of the mounted troops was two hundred million. I heard their number.

                            Ibrahim says: When in history did the Jews kill a third of mankind after Christ ?
                            18. A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths.

                            Hence this prophesy is concerning the Armageddon that Christians are preparing for. And some Muslims are also aware of.


                            Regards
                            Ibrahim



                            [This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited January 17, 2002).]

                            Comment


                              #15
                              The reality is that nowhere else in the world
                              that I know of do people fight organized as
                              Christians, except for the East. The Phalang-
                              ists were not sanctioned by the Pope. Have
                              these Christians been suckered into a fight?
                              The Pope does seem to be silent on the issue,
                              though. America does not equal Christianity.
                              There may be the moral majority's influence.
                              It does not fight in the name of religion. It
                              is separate from this by law.
                              Obviously, the two Muslim men should have had
                              a proper trial in Manila. The criminals that
                              you speak of have committed sin, if these
                              accusations are true. Crimes are against God
                              and man. The Puritans and crusaders do not
                              have the respect of Christians today. Muslims
                              and Puritans have some things in common, tho.
                              Jesus commanded us to love our enemies and to
                              help those evil ones to come around to the
                              right way. It is not proven that Christ was
                              at Qumran. The responsibilty for the nasty
                              events described in Revelations has yet to be
                              determined. The breakdown of these things is
                              to be seen. It may well involve America in a
                              negative way. Which Bible do you quote from?

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