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    Why don't we work on the weekends?

    Buried amidst a scintillating discussion on Wishing Non Muslims is part of a fatwa issued by a learned scholar. It goes like this

    Similarly, Muslims are forbidden to imitate the kuffaar by having parties on such occasions, or exchanging gifts, or giving out sweets or food, or taking time off work, etc., because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "Whoever imitates a people is one of them."
    Since the dear departed Maulana decided to take such a wide interpretation of the hadith, it makes me wonder how legitimate it is for muslims to not work on Saturdays and Sundays?

    Surely there is no basis in Islam for taking a day off from work on Sunday. That day must have some sort of pagan-jewish origins behind it, (we all know that Saturday is a Day of Sabaath for jewish people) and I am sure many of our learned members will be willing to copy-paste from an authoritative reference.

    To take it a step further, I am unable to find any reference in Islam for muslims to take any day off in a week. Infact the ruling for Friday suggests, that you should stop work for the prayers, and then spread again to earn your livelihood, a clear reference to go back to your office and work. This clearly means that all those muslims who take the weekend off, or don’t work on either a Friday or a Saturday or a Sunday, must be committing some sort of har’aam and need to seek repentance of their deviated way and insist to their employers that they will come to work seven days a week. We should not spread falsehood by associating ourselves with pagan and Christian “holy days”.

    #2
    Pristine, for some people working even One day of a week is Gunnah. It is a fairly general practice in may parts of Pakistan. Only people who work are the ones who have no choice but to work, e.g., farm laborers, workers in privately owned businesses. In any Public Office it is a miracle to see people at work.

    Comment


      #3
      Pristine you lucky dawg... u have the luxury of not working on weekends?
      The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist. And like that... he is gone.

      Comment


        #4
        Fraudia... no personal attacks.

        This is a very serious issue. I am trying to save so many souls from committing 'haram' and 'spreading falsehood'.

        I am thinking of sending out a spam mail to all my friends and family warning them to start attending offices and universities, seven days a week, and in no case should they take Friday, Saturday and Sunday off, since according to the Maulana's fatwa, it is forbidden.

        And this goes for you too, NYA. How dare you bring practical realities in this thread, or even try to be practical? The heretic ways of Pakistan's bureaucracy are a topic by themselves, and u can start a new thread in the Pakistan Affairs section if u so desire.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Pristine:
          Surely there is no basis in Islam for taking a day off from work on Sunday. That day must have some sort of pagan-jewish origins behind it, (we all know that Saturday is a Day of Sabaath for jewish people) and I am sure many of our learned members will be willing to copy-paste from an authoritative reference.
          Interesting that Friday for Islam, Saturday for Judaism, and Sunday for Christianity has meanings. Possible that some other religions have special meanings for other days of the week?

          Judaism has nothing to do with Sunday.

          Some Christian sects/denominations also prefer Saturday as day with special meaning.

          For myself, I work 7 days a week and all days are treated with same respect. Why be holy on one day and "un-holy" on other?

          [This message has been edited by The Old Man (edited January 07, 2002).]

          Comment


            #6
            I heard a Pakistani Islamic Scholar saying that to have Friday off is not from Islam but from culture and tradition, and that is why he did not strongly opposed Nawaz Sharif government's decision to abandon Friday as a holiday and make Sunday as week's holiday. He further mentioned that Christains have this belief that God made heaven and earth in 6 six days and He rested on the 7th day and that is why they have this weekend concept. But Islamic view of God is that He never gets tired.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Pristine:
              Fraudia... no personal attacks.

              This is a very serious issue. I am trying to save so many souls from committing 'haram' and 'spreading falsehood'.

              I am thinking of sending out a spam mail to all my friends and family warning them to start attending offices and universities, seven days a week, and in no case should they take Friday, Saturday and Sunday off, since according to the Maulana's fatwa, it is forbidden.

              And this goes for you too, NYA. How dare you bring practical realities in this thread, or even try to be practical? The heretic ways of Pakistan's bureaucracy are a topic by themselves, and u can start a new thread in the Pakistan Affairs section if u so desire.
              Sorry but your guppie title and these comments suggest that you are like a God.

              I don't see how those 'scholarly interpretations' of yours deduced that conclusion from that quote. I think if I am not wrong then "time off" here is the concept that God never gets tired and we don't have time off from prayers etc.

              Comment


                #8
                Hey, that "time off" thingy was not me... but I kinda agree. Allah never gets tired.

                There are two issues here:

                1. Should muslims take day off on weekends (Sat and Sunday), like all non-muslims do?
                2. If not, then which day(s) of the week should they take off, instead?

                Brings us to the point that where is the concept of a weekly day off (or two days off) in Islam? Did the Prophet (SAWW) ever took weekly days off from work, or any of his sahaba (RA)? Is one (or two) days off, proven from Sunnah, or is it something we have copied from the pre-historic times, or worse, from jews and christians?

                The fatwa quoted above, expressly states 'not to take time off'. Meaning that if you take time off from work, like if you stay at home on December 25, then you are helping spread and support the falsehood. The falsehood being the birth of christ and what not.

                Similarly, the fatwa suggests that by doing so we will be immitating the christians (doing so, refers to celebrating christmas). Many learned members pasted enormous pages of info in the other thread to prove that if any day, event, celebration or a holiday has origins in pagan, jewish or christian (in short non-muslim) traditions, then muslims should stay away from that. So how can you jutify taking days off from work on Saturdays and Sundays?

                But if we start thinking, ok, so which days should we take off instead, the apparent answer (unless someone corrects me) is none. Islam does not support any weekly day off. Does it?

                And to explore that question, is the purpose of this thread.

                And if we conclude that this reasoning is a sham, and taking weekly days off is not akin to spreading falsehood, then give me some justification for that reasoning.


                ps. If you have a problem with my title, u can eat two rotis more at dinner time (for all I care), or ... u can suggest a better one...

                Comment


                  #9
                  Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 3046 Narrated by A number of Companions of the Prophet


                  Safwan reported from a number of Companions of the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) on the authority of their fathers who were relatives of each other. The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) said: Beware, if anyone wrongs a contracting man, or diminishes his right, or forces him to work beyond his capacity, or takes from him anything without his consent, I shall plead for him on the Day of Judgment.

                  Ibrahim says: hence when one enters into a contract to work for another, or there is a standing stipulation that work can only be contracted for so many days in a week, that is what is to be adhered to according to the contract. At the same time if the contracting man is unable to work, he has the right to take rest ( in our time frame it amounts to reporting sick)

                  I hope this will put to rest the wandering and wondering minds,.

                  In any case

                  Let us Read!

                  Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 5.260 Narrated by Abu Said


                  Once a bedouin came to the Prophet and asked him about the migration. The Prophet said, "Mercy of Allah be on you! The migration is a quite difficult matter. Have you got some camels?" He replied in the affirmative. Then the Prophet said, "Do you give their Zakat?" He replied in the affirmative. The Prophet said, "Do you let others benefit by their milk gratis?" He replied in the affirmative. Then the Prophet asked, "Do you milk them on their watering days and give their milk to the poor and needy?" He replied in the affirmative. The Prophet said, "Go on doing like this from beyond the seas, and there is no doubt that Allah will not overlook any of your good deeds."


                  Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 3.470 Narrated by Abu Huraira


                  The Prophet said, "Allah said, 'I will be an opponent to three types of people on the Day of Resurrection:
                  1. One who makes a covenant in My Name, but proves treacherous;
                  2. One who sells a free person and eats his price; and
                  3. One who employs a laborer and takes full work from him but does not pay him for his labour.' "


                  Al-Tirmidhi Hadith Hadith 2783 Narrated by Rafi' ibn Khadij


                  Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) was asked what type of earning was best and replied, "A man's work with his hand and every business transaction which is approved."
                  Ahmad transmitted it.


                  Al-Tirmidhi Hadith Hadith 5172 Narrated by Abu Hurayrah


                  Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) told that Allah said, "Son of Adam, if you devote your heart to unpreoccupied worship of me I shall fill your breast with sufficiency and make your poverty cease; but if you do not do so I shall fill your hand with work and not make your poverty cease."
                  Ahmad and Ibn Majah transmitted it.


                  Al-Tirmidhi Hadith Hadith 5174 Narrated by Amr ibn Maymun al-Awdi


                  Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said to a man in the course of an exhortation, "Grasp five things before five others: your youth before your decrepitude, your health before your illness, your riches before your poverty, your leisure before your work, and your life before your death."
                  Tirmidhi transmitted it in mursal form.


                  Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 8.51 Narrated by Abu Musa Al Ashari


                  The Prophet said, "On every Muslim there is enjoined (a compulsory) Sadaqa (alms)." They (the people) said, "If one has nothing?"He said, "He should work with his hands so that he may benefit himself and give in charity." They said, "If he cannot work or does not work?" He said, "Then he should help the oppressed unhappy person (by word or action or both)." They said, "If he does not do it?" He said, "Then he should enjoin what is good (or said what is reasonable)." They said, "If he does not do that?" He said, "Then he should refrain from doing evil, for that will be considered for Him as a Sadaqa (charity)."

                  Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 3.468 Narrated by Ibn Umar


                  The Prophet said, "Your example and the example of the people of the two Scriptures (i.e. Jews and Christians) is like the example of a man who employed some laborers and asked them, 'Who will work for me from morning till midday for one Qirat?' The Jews accepted and carried out the work. He then asked, Who will work for me from midday up to the 'Asr prayer for one Qirat?' The Christians accepted and fulfilled the work. He then said, 'Who will work for me from the 'Asr till sunset for two Qirats?' You, Muslims have accepted the offer. The Jews and the Christians got angry and said, 'Why should we work more and get lesser wages?' (Allah) said, 'Have I withheld part of your right?' They replied in the negative. He said, 'It is My Blessing, I bestow upon whomever I wish .'

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Hmmmm.... as I see it the question was should muslims take regular days off weekly, commonly known as weekend (Saturday and Sunday)? Many of the references you quoted, are for paying people their due, which is not the question. No one disputes that a laborer should be paid whatever you agreed with him. But that doesn't even begin to touch on the issue of this thread.

                    Lets make it simple:

                    Q1. Did the Prophet (SAWW) or any of his sahabah (RA) regularly took Sunday off from work, or any specific day of the week? And they didn't do any work on that day and basically spent it resting or praying.

                    Q2. If they didn't do any such things, then why do we, the present day muslims do it? Is it just following the christian-jewish customs?

                    Q3. What is the significance of taking Saturday and Sunday off in the western countries, and even many of the muslim countries? Is it some pagan-jewish-christian custom which is still being carried out?

                    Q4. If it is, then according to the fatwa of the Maulana, aren't muslims forbidden from joining in such holidays, since they promote pagan-jewish-christians origins of such a weekly holiday, and hence they should continue to work on these days?

                    You quoted a number of ahadith to support your argument, but perhaps you didn't understood the question.

                    One hadith you quoted suggests that one should not work beyond their capacity, but no historical or scientific evidence suggests that a man can not continue work without taking weekly days off. Infact there are several cases, where people constantly work seven days a week with no ill-effects. If you are physically healthy you can work as many days consecutively as you wish.

                    So, that hadith, valuable as it may be, is irrelevant to this discussion. That hadith means that if I go to market place and agree with a brick-mason that he will work to erect a wall in my home, I shall pay him what I agreed with him (do not diminsh his rights). I shall not make him work if he is exhausted (beyond capacity) and not steal from him (meaning unjustly deduct from his earnings). Thus a daily laborer will earn on the day he works and won't earn when he is not working. Its that simple.

                    I fail to see the relevance of the hadith on milk and goats to this thread. The next one is again similar to what I discussed above and does not deal with weekly day off, rather deals with agreed payments. The next is about best type of earnings and approved earnings and the one after that is about devotion to worship. The next is about leisure time, but not about regular weekly day off. A leisure time can be any time in a day, or a month or an year (Eid). The next is about charity and the last is about contractual integrity.

                    The Maulana, quoted in the first post, placed so much emphasis on not helping and promoting the christians and the jews and the pagan festivals by issuing fatwa that we should keep working on days associated with their customs. He says, don't take the day off, whereas all over the world, December 25 is a day off. So it means, muslims should show up for work on that day.

                    Now applying the same logic, do you disagree that Saturday was a day of Sabbath of the jews, where they didn't work, and that is the historical significance of a holiday on Saturday (maybe even ealrier if there was a pagan tradition there, which I am not aware of). But we are not jews. We are muslims. We should not associate with jewish customs. So, shouldn't all muslims be working on Saturdays just like they are supposed to work on Christmas day?

                    Now, please focus on this issue, and not post your entire collection of ahadeeth. Valuable as they may be, our aim is to present a coherent argument for the readers of this thread on the topic being discussed, not to copy-paste the whole Sahih Bukhari.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Dear Pristine,

                      Its all a matter of "interpretation". If an scholar interprets wearing pants as 'imitating infidels' than its "his" interpretation, you do not necessarily have accept/follow "his" interpretation, you are responsible for "your" interpretations/understandings/beleifs.

                      Its amazing to see to what extent an scholar can go when interpreting 'imitating an infidel'. and more amazing to learn the interpretations of "act opposite of your enemy" type of hadiths.

                      Does it mean that when an American accepts Islam he cannot wear his dress? he has to choose a dress of another 'dominantly' Muslim country?

                      Did Allah SWT in Quran say that whoever 'imitates' infidels will be raised and treated as infidel on the day of judgement? I would be interested in knowing that. Prophet PBUH perhaps said that, but Allah SWT is the DECIDER, right?

                      Whatever brother Ibrahim put forth so far, does not address "take Friday off" question or in fact "take a day off". There is no recommendation in Islam. We are in fact "imitating" rest of the world for this issue.

                      Our "scholars", religious-political leaders demand "Friday off" so that we are different from 'infidels' as per their interpretation.

                      I think a lot of weight would be in the "intention" of why you imitate the infidel.

                      ------------------
                      May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

                      [This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited January 08, 2002).]

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Changez... thanks

                        My point in this post was simple. A good muslim will not take one part of a ruling, which he likes and which is easy to follow, and adopt it, while discarding the rest of the ruling. You can do that, ofcourse, but that is not the recommended way.

                        Now, the maulana whom I quoted in the first post, based his ruling on a wide interpretation of the hadith ""Whoever imitates a people is one of them." He implies that if we take a day off, on a festival which has non-muslim origins than it is akin to us imitating the non-muslims. This is forbidden.

                        To those of us, who consider this fatwa accurate, and who agree to this wide interpretation of the hadith, the question is, are you following this fatwa completely? Its one thing, you don't greet the non-muslims for Christmas, but did u show up for work that day? If you took the day off, paid or not, you are imitating the non-muslims, and it is forbidden.

                        And similarly, a weekly holiday on Saturday is inspired by Jewish tradition of Sabbath. Therefore in order to "stop imitating the jewish people" all of us should show up for work on Saturday. Even Sunday.

                        Do all of you who support this fatwa do it? If not, why?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Ibrahim says; salaams to all

                          Dear Brothers an sisters.

                          I was hoping I can keep quite on this thread as much as possible since Pristine had claimed I was here to win and making all sorts of misconceived allegations of attacking him/her in the earlier thread. But it seems someone has to put a stop to this before it gets out of hand.

                          When we read…………..

                          3: 66 Ah! ye are those who fell to disputing (even) in matters of which ye had some knowledge! but why dispute ye in matters of which ye have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows and ye who know not!

                          Ibrahim says: This verse was revealed concerning a specific matter but it seems most appropriate in the case of Pristine and his/her desperate desire to debate without substance on the issue of, is it permissible to wish non believers “merry Christmas” or “happy new year”? Which is now side tracked to, “ is it permissible to rest on public holidays” ?

                          Originally posted by Pristine:
                          My point in this post was simple. A good muslim will not take one part of a ruling, which he likes and which is easy to follow, and adopt it, while discarding the rest of the ruling. You can do that, ofcourse, but that is not the recommended way.
                          Ibrahim says: A fatwa is also specific and given according to the question/argument presented to the scholars (s) . A fatwa is similar to a court verdict reached in a particular case between two parties which may be referred to in a court of law but a fatwa is only a legal opinion. Just like a judge can give sentence according to the merits of a particular case a fatwa can also differ in words based on the question.

                          The fatwa in question, that was spliced by Pristine to start this argument, when there was nothing to argue about in the other thread (http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/004216.html) was as follows:-

                          Let me quote the complete texts as posted by Brother Hasnain.:-

                          Greeting the kuffaar on Christmas and other religious holidays of theirs is haraam, by consensus, as Ibn al-Qayyim, may Allaah have mercy on him, said in Ahkaam Ahl al-Dhimmah: "Congratulating the kuffaar on the rituals that belong only to them is haraam by consensus, as is congratulating them on their festivals and fasts by saying ‘A happy festival to you’ or ‘May you enjoy your festival,’ and so on. If the one who says this has been saved from kufr, it is still forbidden. It is like congratulating someone for prostrating to the cross, or even worse than that. It is as great a sin as congratulating someone for drinking wine, or murdering someone, or having illicit sexual relations, and so on. Many of those who have no respect for their religion fall into this error; they do not realize the offensiveness of their actions. Whoever congratulates a person for his disobedience or bid’ah or kufr exposes himself to the wrath and anger of Allaah."
                          Congratulating the kuffaar on their religious festivals is haraam to the extent described by Ibn al-Qayyim because it implies that one accepts or approves of their rituals of kufr, even if one would not accept those things for oneself. But the Muslim should not accept the rituals of kufr or congratulate anyone else for them, because Allaah does not accept any of that at all, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

                          "If you disbelieve, then verily, Allaah is not in need of you, He likes not disbelief for His slaves. And if you are grateful (by being believers), He is pleased therewith for you. . ."
                          [al-Zumar 39:7]
                          ". . . This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islaam as your religion . . ."
                          [al-Maa’idah 5:3]
                          So congratulating them is forbidden, whether they are one’s colleagues at work or otherwise.

                          If they greet us on the occasion of their festivals, we should not respond, because these are not our festivals, and because they are not festivals which are acceptable to Allaah. These festivals are innovations in their religions, and even those which may have been prescribed formerly have been abrogated by the religion of Islaam, with which Allaah sent Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) to the whole of mankind. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
                          "Whoever seeks a religion other than Islaam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers." [Aal ‘Imraan 3:85]
                          It is haraam for a Muslim to accept invitations on such occasions, because this is worse than congratulating them as it implies taking part in their celebrations.

                          Similarly, Muslims are forbidden to imitate the kuffaar by having parties on such occasions, or exchanging gifts, or giving out sweets or food, or taking time off work, etc., because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "Whoever imitates a people is one of them."
                          Shaykh al-Islaam Ibn Taymiyah said in his book Iqtidaa’ al-siraat al-mustaqeem mukhaalifat ashaab al-jaheem: "Imitating them in some of their festivals implies that one is pleased with their false beliefs and practices, and gives them the hope that they may have the opportunity to humiliate and mislead the weak."
                          Whoever does anything of this sort is a sinner, whether he does it out of politeness or to be friendly, or because he is too shy to refuse, or for whatever other reason, because this is hypocrisy in Islaam, and because it makes the kuffaar feel proud of their religion.
                          Allaah is the One Whom we ask to make the Muslims feel proud of their religion, to help them adhere steadfastly to it, and to make them victorious over their enemies, for He is the Strong and Omnipotent.
                          (Majmoo’ah Fataawa wa Rasaa’il al-Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen, 3/369)


                          Ibrahim says: the argument now is based not on why it is haraam to follow the Non believers on this particular religious occasions ( which is the main answer to the question by the respected scholar ) but why Muslims should also STOP going to work on public holidays in our current time frame which had been sanctioned by their governments or as per their working contracts with their employers.

                          This argument is indeed FLAWED, due to

                          1) This was not the question put to that scholar!

                          2) since when you make a contract to work or become a resident or citizen in a country where the laws stipulates , certain days of the week are mandated holidays , that has to be observed by the one who accepted that contract . This does not mean one stops work altogether and sleeps it out , it means one does not need to go to work as per his/her contract. That person can still continue to do what ever works he/she desires on that day , wherever they may chose to do so. It is not a Sabbath day where work is forbidden.

                          3) But most of all, What the respected Shaykh is saying is that, do not imitate what takes place in Christian homes and Christian countries by declaring such days a public holiday in Muslim dominated/controlled countries too.

                          This is simple to understand but Pristine is looking for some loop hole to argue without fully understanding what is being said and to who it is being said and how the questions was addressed or worded and by whom.

                          Thus his problem and desire to try and cast doubt on the ability of these scholars to convey/understand what is the correct path in Islam.


                          Now, the maulana whom I quoted in the first post, based his ruling on a wide interpretation of the hadith ""Whoever imitates a people is one of them." He implies that if we take a day off, on a festival which has non-muslim origins than it is akin to us imitating the non-muslims. This is forbidden.
                          Ibrahim says: That is your understanding based on your desire, to me what the respected Shaykh is saying is that, I should not follow them or declare it a Holy day too, if it is within my power/control to do such things.

                          This is like a Muslim employer not closing his/her business because the Christians were closing or like a Muslim country with an Islamic law as its constitution which does not declare 25th of December as a National Public holiday.


                          To those of us, who consider this fatwa accurate, and who agree to this wide interpretation of the hadith, the question is, are you following this fatwa completely? Its one thing, you don't greet the non-muslims for Christmas, but did u show up for work that day? If you took the day off, paid or not, you are imitating the non-muslims, and it is forbidden.
                          Ibrahim says: I feel sorry that Pristine cannot understand simple things like this.

                          1) A worker observes his contract, and is subject to those terms which was agreed upon .

                          2) An employer can decide for himself as to what is comfortable to him/her and what the national laws stipulates.

                          3) A state will also decide based on its constitution as to when are its rest days or public holidays .

                          A Muslim observing his rest according to his/her wishes or as per the mandated holidays in a working week or even public holidays in any country is not the issue that the respected Shaykh is talking about . He is merely conveying that Muslims should not declare such days as a holy day too and join them in any sort of celebrations on these days which are considered holy by them.

                          I Already proofed this in the earlier thread by using the Qur’an.

                          And similarly, a weekly holiday on Saturday is inspired by Jewish tradition of Sabbath. Therefore in order to "stop imitating the jewish people" all of us should show up for work on Saturday. Even Sunday.
                          Ibrahim says; I suppose you clinched your argument by the above statement ? Indeed you seem to be looking for some way or another to deny what I quoted from the Qur’an

                          Read!

                          2: 42 And cover not Truth with falsehood nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).

                          which alone was sufficient to cause you fail in your ill conceived notions.

                          The weekly holidays ( note holidays not HOLY day ) that we are observing is because we are following the Christian calendar , but that does not mean a Muslim rests on any days of a week , for a Muslim is one who observes his duty to Allah (swt) on all days and he/ she may rest on any days as he/she is subject to or according to his/her contract has nothing to do with imitating the non believers on their holy days.

                          Was salaam
                          Ibrahim

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Since you are unable to post a response, without offering unwanted commentary on person asking the question, so I had a mind to ignore your response completely. Do you have a problem in just focusing on the issue? Instead of wandering here and there, by trying to judge the niyyat of a person. I am not the enemy here. The enemy is our own insecurity to open our minds for difficult issues.

                            The issue of wishing non-muslims was debated and finished, as far as I am concerned. Anyone can open that thread and look at the arguments and decide on the strength of the arguments presented by both parties. If you wish to keep dragging that thread in all your discussions than its up to you. When I focussed on a different issue in the previous thread u made it sound like as if I was running away from the main issue by bringing another issue. Now, that I opened a separate thread on a different question, albeit related, you are again making a fuss that why open a separate thread, and by doing so, apparently the great scholar has been insulted. Rest assured, it seems there is no way to satisfy your complaints.

                            Coming to this thread...

                            1. It seems you misrepresented the fatwa of the maulana. If you notice the words in the english translation are "to take time off", which obviously implies an employee. Your interpretation reverses it to mean "declare it a Holy day too" meaning an employer or position of power. The Maulana is clearly instructing muslims not to take time off on that day, whereas you are twisting his words to squeeze out of this restriction. That is incorrect.

                            2. Then you go on about contractual relationship, which has actually little bearing upon the issue, unless someone is a daily laborer. If a person's pay is not effected if he works or doesn't work on weekend or holidays, overtime provisions notwithstanding. And just for your knowledge, a christian faith called "Jehovah's Witness" never take a day off on Christmas or Easter, even though its a public holiday, because they feel that if its not in Bible, then it is an innovation and against their religion (similar to our islamic concept of bida'a). Whether you get paid for it or not is irrelevant.

                            3. If you know that the origins of the day are false, then you are supposed to treat it as a normal day and continue with your normal trade. You again changed the focus of the argument by suggesting that even if we don't come to work, doesn't mean we are taking the day off. Duh?

                            4. You say "This was not the question put to that scholar!", however the words of the fatwa are not limiting to one event. They condemn all festivals and events based on non-muslim origins. Don't try to limit the application of the fatwa to avoid the uncomfortable decisions a follower must take.

                            5. The point that muslims should not be celebrating christmas by having christmas tree or Santa Claus or anyother festivities is not the argument here. But rather the very specific words which are in bold in the first post and their profound effect on our everyday lives. The main emphasis is again summarized in the four questions which I posed to you in response to your first post in this thread.

                            I am not looking for any loophole, rather I am just bringing it to the attention of everyone the impact of this fatwa. Or maybe it is that if YOU who post a fatwa, it is all well and good-intentioned, but if someone else posts it, or part of it, he must be heretic and looking for loopholes. I am sorry to see this mentality.

                            I do not deny anything from the Quran, but you seem to be in a constant state of denial about the origins of Sabbath on Saturday and the consequent day off on Saturday. While you were the one who was quoting all sort of reference books to emphasize that Christmas has pagan and false origins, when the tables are turned, you are now claiming an out of context ayat of Quran to suggest that discussing origins of Sabbath on Saturday is concealing the truth. How very unfortunate.

                            Now everyone in this board can see who is following the etiquettes of debate and discussion. Look at my first reply to you in this thread. Despite knowing your tendancy of unwanted personal attacks in the other thread, my response was still entirely based on your arguments, and discussing them one by one, without a single negative comment about you personally. And now look at your follow-up response. It starts off and continuously implies as if I have some desperate desire to waste my time by bringing up unwanted issues for debate.

                            My message to you. These are religious debates. If you don't have an answer you don't have to speak up. If you have something to say, say it, without trying to put down others or their opinions or doubt their intentions. These are basic etiquettes of islamic debate which you will do well to learn. If you don't trust me, than look up how great scholars of Islam debated with each other and with people of other faiths. By your constant commentary on the other person and his intentions you manage to blow them off in the first instance, and then whatever you say doesn't have the same impact, even if you are right.

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                              #15
                              Since you are unable to post a response, without offering unwanted commentary on person asking the question, so I had a mind to ignore your response completely. Do you have a problem in just focusing on the issue?
                              Ibrahim says : salaams to all

                              Pristine, that is what I am focusing on but apparently you do not like my style and you cannot understand them too well as you have repeatedly proofed in the earlier thread.

                              Instead of wandering here and there, by trying to judge the niyyat of a person. I am not the enemy here. The enemy is our own insecurity to open our minds for difficult issues.
                              Ibrahim says: excuse me! You have been trying very hard to switch from here to there and trying to split hairs on points which are not the essence of the answers given by me or others.

                              Your problem seems to be that you need to proof to others you have a point when there is none since your arguments is basically in trying to spilt written words to derive something other than what is being mentioned.

                              No one needs to judge anyone’s intention, when there is no problem in the responses or disagreements (everyone is allowed to disagree and do what they want) , but when one tries to undermine an entire reply by trying to focus on one sentence and trying to use that as a basis for their disagreement whilst denying the rest which forms the crux of the issue at hand, one seriously needs to wonder why and intentions becomes an issue !

                              The issue here was not difficult at all and I only used three verse in the Qur’an to dispel your earlier notion for which I had no disagreement but instead you tried to change from calendar issue to working on weekends issue to what knots now.

                              Come on Pristine, be sincere and either dispute with solid evidence that it is not haraam to do as the Jews and Christians may do on their holy days not just your intuition please! As you know Muslims are very particular on the daleel.

                              My problem is that by your actions and words you are trying to negate the Qur’anic ayat I quoted and that I will and have to oppose till everyone get this right . I did not use any fatwa in my approach. So you need to THINK very seriously as to what you are saying by not settling the issue and carry on talking about minor issues.


                              The issue of wishing non-muslims was debated and finished, as far as I am concerned.
                              Ibrahim says hmm..and what is this thread supposed to be originating from ? And what debate did you offer except your opinion against the evidences I had presented in that thread ? And how does that become finished when you neither agreed nor placed any evidence that was to be considered by me or anyone else for us to follow your persuasion.

                              [quote] Anyone can open that thread and look at the arguments and decide on the strength of the arguments presented by both parties. If you wish to keep dragging that thread in all your discussions than its up to you. When I focussed on a different issue in the previous thread u made it sound like as if I was running away from the main issue by bringing another issue. Now, that I opened a separate thread on a different question, albeit related, you are again making a fuss that why open a separate thread, and by doing so, apparently the great scholar has been insulted. Rest assured, it seems there is no way to satisfy your complaints. [/quiote]

                              Ibrahim says: Your mind seems confused Pristine! I am not defending the scholar here and whatever you say against him may amount to backbiting and nothing less since he is not present here. My arguments is based on what I wrote based on my understanding of the message given in the Qur’an as well as other scriptures.

                              This notion that you focused on a different issue has all to do with trying to claim that the scholars had made a mistake in this particular instance which was why you initiated the first thread about wishing non Muslims in the first place.

                              Your whole notion for this thread is a few words which you seem to take as you understand it, whereas I do not get that same understanding when I read it. So I am compelled to redirect you ( because you want to proof that the scholars are wrong even though I proofed you wrong without consulting the scholars ) , even though I quit the scene on the other thread the moment you mentioned I am here to win, which sounded very silly to me.

                              1. It seems you misrepresented the fatwa of the maulana. If you notice the words in the english translation are "to take time off", which obviously implies an employee. Your interpretation reverses it to mean "declare it a Holy day too" meaning an employer or position of power. The Maulana is clearly instructing muslims not to take time off on that day, whereas you are twisting his words to squeeze out of this restriction. That is incorrect.
                              Ibrahim says : what is obvious to me is not obvious to you and your ability to comprehend written words is worrying and had been proofed in error a number of times in your response.

                              You are now putting words into what that respected scholar is saying and forgetting to understand what he has conveyed as a whole. In other words all your focus are on those few words and using them as your focal point, you want to split everyone hairs, unfortunately it seems it is only your hair that you are splitting.

                              The point I wish to reiterate is that how you understand those words is not how I understand them and that is perfectly OK, since my level of understanding and your level of understanding cannot be the same.
                              I have made my self clear as to how I understand those words kindly read them again, if you do not understand what I see .

                              2. Then you go on about contractual relationship, which has actually little bearing upon the issue, unless someone is a daily laborer. If a person's pay is not effected if he works or doesn't work on weekend or holidays, overtime provisions notwithstanding. And just for your knowledge, a christian faith called "Jehovah's Witness" never take a day off on Christmas or Easter, even though its a public holiday, because they feel that if its not in Bible, then it is an innovation and against their religion (similar to our islamic concept of bida'a). Whether you get paid for it or not is irrelevant.
                              Ibrahim says : so much for your understanding, my point was simple one who works be it self employed or as an employee has the right to follow what he/she wishes to do to make a living so long as it is not haraam in Islam. that fatwa did not say it was haraarm to rest on public holidays or any mandated day as per anyone’s contract.
                              What that scholar conveyed was do not imitate the non believers by having parties on such occasions, or exchanging gifts, or giving out sweets or food, or taking time off work, etc

                              Which is simple to understand but you twisted this to mean that weekend rests are forbidden by him ( since they too can be considered holy days for some) or one must work on this mandated public holidays as per this fatwa .

                              I cannot help you if you add into other peoples words and try to split them as you wish in order to proof your notions. Which all has to do with proofing scholars can be wrog in their opinions .

                              In my view that does not need any proof as scholars and all of mankind can be wrong at any time and only Allah (swt) can be right all the time.

                              3. If you know that the origins of the day are false, then you are supposed to treat it as a normal day and continue with your normal trade. You again changed the focus of the argument by suggesting that even if we don't come to work, doesn't mean we are taking the day off. Duh?
                              Ibrahim says: is that what you can comprehend? Or do you suppose a Muslim having his holiday due to what is mandated as a public holiday will not be treating it as any other day in their life?.

                              4. You say "This was not the question put to that scholar!", however the words of the fatwa are not limiting to one event. They condemn all festivals and events based on non-muslim origins. Don't try to limit the application of the fatwa to avoid the uncomfortable decisions a follower must take.
                              Ibrahim says: what uncomfortable decision followers must take, when that fatwa and myself had precisely conveyed it is wrong to aid and abet falsehoods knowingly as per Allah (swt) instructions? This does not mean that one has to go to work on a holiday against his contract as you want to argue in this thread. To aid and abet falsehood means Muslims must not attest to untruth by words or actions. The Sabbath is not an untruth but a command from Allah (swt) to some people in the past. And Muslims do not rest on this days to fulfill that command but end up having rest days because it has become the norms of following the Gregorian calendar.

                              5. The point that muslims should not be celebrating christmas by having christmas tree or Santa Claus or anyother festivities is not the argument here. But rather the very specific words which are in bold in the first post and their profound effect on our everyday lives. The main emphasis is again summarized in the four questions which I posed to you in response to your first post in this thread.
                              Ibrahim says: I did not bother to read your four questions since I did not respond to your concern . I merely posted hadiths which had specific info on contracts, leisure time, work etc for those who had wisdom to comprehend them . My reason to respond to you on this thread was already clearly mentioned . my advise to you is that do not keep on trying to proof that someone’s fatwas are faulty until you had actually went and discussed with that person directly as to what he had meant on specific statements that had troubled you.

                              I am not looking for any loophole, rather I am just bringing it to the attention of everyone the impact of this fatwa. Or maybe it is that if YOU who post a fatwa, it is all well and good-intentioned, but if someone else posts it, or part of it, he must be heretic and looking for loopholes. I am sorry to see this mentality.
                              Ibrahim says: unfortunately, since you earlier tried to focus on Hijri issue whilst skipping the main reply, after words some false allegations and now on weekend issue, I consider it as looking for loop holes and not focusing on what was your reason to start that thread in the first place.

                              I do not deny anything from the Quran, but you seem to be in a constant state of denial about the origins of Sabbath on Saturday and the consequent day off on Saturday.
                              Ibrahim says; can you point to me where I have been denying Sabbath days or had talked about it constantly?

                              While you were the one who was quoting all sort of reference books to emphasize that Christmas has pagan and false origins, when the tables are turned, you are now claiming an out of context ayat of Quran to suggest that discussing origins of Sabbath on Saturday is concealing the truth. How very unfortunate.
                              Ibrahim says I keep wondering how you end up coming to the short sighted conclusions that you seem to claim you are getting. Care to show us where I used the Qur’an to deny the Sabbath day, when Sabbath itself is a command for some people in the past from Allah (swt) ?

                              Now everyone in this board can see who is following the etiquettes of debate and discussion. Look at my first reply to you in this thread. Despite knowing your tendancy of unwanted personal attacks in the other thread, my response was still entirely based on your arguments, and discussing them one by one, without a single negative comment about you personally. And now look at your follow-up response. It starts off and continuously implies as if I have some desperate desire to waste my time by bringing up unwanted issues for debate.
                              Ibrahim says: Pristine, my comments originates from your comments and IF you believe I am talking negatively about you and that this is a personal exchange to malign you, you are wrong, simply because you made it such by your earlier comments. Care to tell us where in the other thread I attacked you, or does it ever gets through to you that you were unable to proof your allegation that I attacked you in that thread?

                              As a Muslim do you understand what this means? We cannot be lying to each other, so either show us where you got attacked and let the readers judge for themselves.

                              My message to you. These are religious debates. If you don't have an answer you don't have to speak up. If you have something to say, say it, without trying to put down others or their opinions or doubt their intentions. These are basic etiquettes of islamic debate which you will do well to learn. If you don't trust me, than look up how great scholars of Islam debated with each other and with people of other faiths. By your constant commentary on the other person and his intentions you manage to blow them off in the first instance, and then whatever you say doesn't have the same impact, even if you are right.
                              Ibrahim says: Good here you talk about “without trying to put down others or their opinions or doubt their intentions.” Yet it is you who has been trying to take one sentence and split it the way you chose . tell me are you not trying to put down others or their opinions or doubt their intentions by arguing they meant this and not that?

                              Pristine, I am straight talker and my words are very direct to the point, this may be difficult for some of you to handle but that does not mean I am rude or disrespect what others had to say. I may have a problem of targeting specific individuals and may even be harsh at times to specific posters but that has more to do with my objectives and not out of any desire to harm or hurt others feelings because of having different views.

                              I am not here to win or entertain but specifically here to correct errors where it is within my level of comprehension as well as learn what Allah (swt) had so willed from what others had to say or post in various forums from anyone and everyone .

                              Was salaam
                              Ibrahim

                              The secret of failure is trying to please everybody

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