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    Marriage (Islam vs Traditions)

    Hmm previous thread was blocked!

    Continued Response

    quote:

    I do not claim that I know Islam better than them or anyone else. Didn't I admit that I made a mistake too?

    Ibrahim says; Brother my point being you took a risk knowingly and from what you have been conveying so far , you have more knowledge in Islam then they may have (by your own assertions) ., hence you should have known better and showed them the correct path instead of ending up being part of the problem.

    Still running in Circles.., I tried to do all that I could, to get the message across. "You took a risk knowingly" I was uncertain of the consequences, yes, because i am not a magician neither can I predict the future, I knew the girl, I liked the girl, I wanted to marry the girl and I sent the proposal, and I've discussed the events that occurred afterwards. why are we still arguing on this particular point? What are you trying to prove?

    quote:

    Blaming the parents for not bringing her up properly, well I mentioned this only after your repeated assertion that I shouldn't have done this and that.. and its supposed to be completely my fault!

    Ibrahim says; Let me ask you something brother! Lets imagine instead of you, the father was on this forum and he was accusing you of abusing his daughter and cheating her , even though he believed you were a good Muslim and he had trusted you as a Muslim and your parents had failed to educate you , thus you have brought shame to his family and Islam. Blah blah blah …..

    Brother Just imagine this scenario …(I am not saying you did this)

    What will the people on this forum think of you? Some will immediately jump to the conclusion that you must be punished and You will surely cry that you have been unjustly slandered without your presence, right? Meaning it amounts to back biting.
    My point being when you do this here without that parents having knowledge of it or having the means to defend themselves. it amounts to slander. Those who hears such things have two options, one to act in defense against such slander and give the benefit of doubt to the accused since he is not being represented here. whereas the accuser can defend himself or the second option being , to close the ears and move away and not hear anything concerning this.

    Let me start by defining what slander means: a false report maliciously uttered and tending to injure the reputation of a person.

    Mine is not a false report, it is based on facts. If you think that I am making all this up just to gather sympathies, well, I may not benefit from any sympathy from anyone on this forum, my intention is solely to resolve this issue, influence of family-tradition over religion in our society. I do not want other people to suffer because of this cullture. You are very well aware that this is not something uncommon in our society, still you are trying to give a twist to this particular issue, the only reason being that I am of the opinion that parents should not be supported if they are making a decision that is in conflict with Quran and Sunat, andYOU suggest that no matter how wrong parents are, the children should keep quiet and support them even if they are making an error

    I do not intend to injure the reputation of a person, DO YOU KNOW WHOM AM I TALKING ABOUT? Do you know those people? This is a genuine issue and it has to be solved and that is the intention. You may consider it slander, maybe because you may have another definition of the word! By mentioning this, you want me to keep quiet, ignore the issue and let the father force her daughter to marry the person he considers is best for her (may Allah forbid this to happen).

    Now consider this ………..
    Al-Muwatta Hadith Hadith 41.18
    The Hadd for Slander, Denial and Insinuation
    Malik related to me from Zurayq ibn Hakim al-Ayli that a man called Misbah asked his son for help and he thought him unnecessarily slow. When the son came, his father said to him, "O fornicator." Zurayq said, "So the son asked me to help him against the father. When I wanted to flog him, his son said, 'By Allah, if you flog him, I will acknowledge that I have committed fornication.' When he said that, the situation was confused for me, so I wrote about it to Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz who was the governor at that time, and I mentioned it to him. Umar wrote me to permit his pardon."
    Zurayq said, "I wrote to Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz also, 'What do you think about a man who is slandered or his parents are slandered and both or only one of them are dead?' He said, Umar wrote to me, 'If he forgives, his pardon is permitted for himself. If his parents are slandered and one or both of them are dead, take the judgment of the Book of Allah for it unless he wants to veil it.' "
    Yahya said, "I heard Malik say, 'That is because the slandered man might fear that if that is unveiled about him, a clear proof might be established. If it is according to what we have described, his pardon is permitted."
    Ibrahim says: Which is what I did, but when you went on to say Muslims are using the Qur'an for their benefit only ( which you repeat down below also) . It was time I showed you the ropes or else I will become guilty of negating my responsibilities towards ensuring Islam is not misunderstood.

    To try to convey the truth about how parents are forcing their daughter to marry someone she doesn't want to, only because the person she wants to marry belongs to a different caste is slandering? I am not afraid of the truth to be unveiled before her father forces her to marry someone else (may Allah forbid), but I sure am afraid that if all this un-veils(may Allah forbid) after she's been forcibly married to someone else(may Allah forbid).

    The person who is most afraid if the truth gets unveiled is her mother, and this is why she has played it dirty against me so that she can hide her actions, because she is aware that if the truth is known to all, everyone will know that what the facts are. I am trying my best to get this across to her father, but I must admit, her mother has played it well.
    quote:

    Regarding my claims about the father (caste) and mother (playing dirty), well it seems to me that you have vowed to misunderstand me!

    Ibrahim says; brother do not jump to conclusions , Justice demands that the accused has a say and must be represented ( must be present when an accusation is being made against him/her or else the accuser is backbiting ) or else they can be no justice ONLY injustice.

    I am not the one who's started jumping to conlusions, it has been you. Re-read your posts and see them, its seems that you can jump to conclusions that too based on assumptions, but I cannot do so, even though it is evident that you are only running around in circles.

    quote:

    What is it that you are finding difficulty in understanding my friend? please be specific! The main problem is the influence of family tradition on the father (caste). I didn't want to discuss about the mother's (playing dirty) part, and I only mentioned this after someone suggested that I should talk to the mother. I don't like playing dirty. And I do not need you to feel sorry for me either. There is much more than what I've discussed here, and I never wanted to discuss so much, its only because your attitude was similar to those whom I've known that choose verses and hadith from the Quran and Sunnat that suits their claim and disregard those that are against them.


    Ibrahim says; I made this clear in my earlier post. I will say it again, you were looking for advice in a particular scenario and you went one step further to accuse most Muslims who used the Qur'an and sunnah to assert their point…which is when I stepped in and showed you how you too have ended up doing the same ( read my first post)

    I read your first post and I knew then that you are similar to those who use the Quran and sunnah to assert your point... I've therefore discussed the issue more clearly to you. Look at yourself, how you have avoided responding to so many other things that I have mentioned, and you chose only those that could be used against me. Nice try, keep up the good work.

    quote:

    I know what has been going on in the past 4 years in this situation, and you don't. Yet you've been believing about how things are, who's right and who's not, based on your assumptions which are inclined to a negative attitude. Your post was sending a different message, which was based on personal worldly experience. I had to give a brief summary of the whole event so that atleast you could stop believing in your false assumptions.


    Ibrahim says; My response was based on the fact that you were accusing everyone in that family whilst not fully accepting your part in that affair . I was conveying to you what are your options is such scenarios.

    There we go again. I have too explained to you that why its not me alone? I am a part of this and I admit, what else do you want me to admit? Why do you keep repeating? The options in such scenarios, my friend I don't like doing this to you, please see what you've been writing.

    I was trying to prevent a cycle of violence such affairs can lead to, showing you that the parents can claim innocence too. Such problems are not based on religion or race but has to do with "PRIDE" . This problem exist in all societies. I personally know of a Filipino Muslim, who having had a loved affair finally ended up eloping and marrying the girl and today living or more or less hiding with his family and children. His problem being if he was found by his wife's tribe he will be killed but his wife and children have no problem in being entertained by the parents but a death sentence is on his head as long as he lives.
    He is quite lucky but many others have tried this and whole families have been killed or their lives ruined on account of their pride.

    I can assure you that in this scenario the parents can never claim innocence. They know what they've done wrong and people around them too are well aware of this.
    Ok, so we get another topic, pride, EGO, well... what do you think was the problem that Satan had? So you suggest that if there is 'pride' involved in this situation, we should consider that its no use trying to get the right message across? Because it might end up in death of individuals. Shouldn't a Muslim have faith in the fact that Death never comes before or after it is due?

    I won't get into details here, because it too might take a while when we really get to the point.
    quote:

    Ibrahim wrote earlier:
    "I am indeed sorry for you , But What I have been trying to convey to you in principal is that parents have to be respected and even when they are in error , we cannot start to rebel against them in such ways that will destroy the harmony of that home or teach others to become rebellious against their parents"

    O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice as witnesses to Allah even as against yourselves or your parents or your kin and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts) lest ye swerve and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do. 4:135

    Ibrahim says: this verse was revealed concerning the emigrants and is to be cross referenced to this ayat.
    4: 33 To (benefit) everyone We have appointed sharers and heirs to property left by parents and relatives. To those also to whom your right hand was pledged give their due portion: for truly Allah is Witness to all things
    Ibrahim says in other words When the emigration took place from Makkah to Madinah, bonds and links of brotherhood were established between the Emigrants and the Helpers, and they shared in each other's inheritance. Later, when the Community was solidly established, and relations with those left behind in Makkah were resumed, the rights of blood-relations in Makkah, and the Helper-brethren in Madinah were both safeguarded. This is the particular meaning. The more general meaning is similar; respect your ties of blood, of neighbourhood, and of friendly compacts and understandings. Be just to all.
    The general commentary for the verse you are quoting is Some people may be inclined to favor the rich, because they expect something from them. Some people may be inclined to favour the poor because they are generally helpless. Partiality in either case is wrong. Be just, without fear of favour. Both the rich and the poor are under Allah's protection as far as their legitimate interests are concerned, but they cannot expect to be favoured at the expense of others. And He can protect their interests far better than any man.

    Well, so a verse is being denied here! My friend are you aware of what this really means? I think everyone should be well aware of what's going on here, You are denying that a verse is not applicable in this point of time! Why is it so hard for you to accept that parents being human beings can make mistakes too. Why? Its been made so clear that you should be JUST, even whether it is against yourself, your parents, your relatives...! Yet you are not able to accept this, it beats me! Look at yourself, you highlight certain words in a verse that you think are applicable to me, but in the same verse there are other words that are applicable to your stance and you have them in the normal text(not highlighted)

    quote:

    We have enjoined on man kindness to parents: but if they (either of them) strive (to force) thee to join with Me (in worship) anything of which thou hast no knowledge obey them not. Ye have (all) to return to Me and I will tell you (the truth) of all that ye did. 29:8

    Ibrahim says; Good that you quoted this verse now think as to what is being stressed here.
    Commentary for above verse.
    That is, no certainty. In matters of faith and worship, even parents have no right to force their children. They cannot and must not hold up before them any worship but that of the One True God.
    Children and parents must all remember that they have all to go before Allah's tribunal, and answer, each for his own deeds. In cases where one set of people have lawful authority over another set of people (as in the case of parents and children), and the two differ in important matters like that of Faith, the latter are justified in rejecting authority: the apparent conflict will be solved when the whole truth is revealed to all eyes in the final Judgment
    Ibrahim says; This specifically applies to matters of faith, meaning if any of your parents told you, you must worship Christ or an idol than you have the right to reject them but in other matters you must show kindness to them.

    What does worshipping mean? Doesn't it mean to follow certain rules?
    Her father wants her to follow a custom which is running in their family since the time their ancestors were Sikh, so if they claim that they are Muslims and still they follow certain traditions which they have not able to change even though Islam clearly disapproves of those traditions, isn't it SHIRK? Her parents are enforcing her to obey to the custom of their ancestors who were Sikh! And you tell me that this is not considered SHIRK? My friend according to Islam she has the RIGHT to dis-obey her parents and you or even million's like you cannot prove her wrong. Quran's authentication is the responsibility of Allah, if this were not the case, MAN would have altered it just like they altered other Holy Books. You are only trying to avoid this truth being known to the majority that parents cannot force them to do anything according to Islam, you are trying only to keep your authority. Neither of us has chosen our gender, family, country of birth! Have you ever imagined yourself being born as a woman? Its all about dominance, and MAN has not let a chance pass by him ever. Her parents are enforcing their decision on her because she's a female, and they have allowed their son to marry the girl of his choice even though she does'nt belong to their caste!

    My friend if you
    Now read!
    31: 14 And We have enjoined on man (to be good) to his parents: in travail upon travail did his mother bear him and in years twain was his weaning: (hear the command) "Show gratitude to Me and to thy parents: to Me is (thy final) Goal.

    17: 23 Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none but Him and that ye be kind to parents. Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life say not to them a word of contempt nor repel them but address them in terms of honor.
    6: 151 Say: "Come I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from": join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents: kill not your children on a plea of want; We provide sustenance for you and for them; come not nigh to shameful deeds whether open or secret; take not life which Allah hath made sacred except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you that ye may learn wisdom
    Meaning Allah (swt) had ranked honoring , being good to ones parents the second most important thing to do in life

    And you think that I am denying that it is not, my friend, you don't seem to get it do you? DO NOT generalize this issue, I am referring to this girl's parents, because what they are doing is NOT according to Islam! I am not asking your daughter to rebel against you for anything! I am only saying that PARENTS ARE HUMAN BEINGS TOO! Where is it mentioned in the Quran or give me any Hadith that says that PARENTS CAN NEVER MAKE MISTAKES!
    quote:

    I am not against respecting parents ok? I believe that one should not support their parents if their parents are doing something which is in conflict with Islam. I believe In Allah, whole heartedly Alhamdolellah. I also believe that it is our decisions we make in life that are responsible for us being in heaven or hell-fire. I also believe that when we are tested, we have to make decisions based on the guidance of Allah. Islam educates us on being JUST, so if one has a test/trial and he/she has to make a decision, her/his decision should be JUST, even if it is against her/his PARENTS!

    Ibrahim says; Agreed…now consider….how sure are you that you have been just in your actions , you have gone against norms and followed what was or is being practiced by the unbelievers , (I have already made it clear to you that , there is no caste system in Islam and your problem has to do with that tribes pride) . It is not you who will have to go against those parents but their own daughter and in so doing that whole family is going to end up a bad taste . Do you think that is just?

    Where is the pride? its already gone, they are only trying to cover their lost pride by forcing her to marry a "Jatt" (may Allah forbid), they don't care about the consequences because they can always blame the fate of their daughter to be this way, if (may Allah forbid) something turns out that way.
    YES I think it is JUST. Because the excuse her parents have is not JUST! I am sure of this, very sure about this because I have seen, heard and felt that only this is the issue! Family Tradition!

    Now find out the kind of example the Prophet showed Muslims
    Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 6.309 Narrated by Aisha
    (the wife of the Prophet) when Allah's Apostle was ordered to give option to his wives, he started with me, saying, "I am going to mention to you something, but you shall not hasten (to give your reply) unless you consult your parents." The Prophet knew that my parents would not order me to leave him. Then he said, "Allah says: 'O Prophet (Muhammad)! Say to your wives: If you desire the life of this world and its glitter...a great reward." (33.28-29) I said, "Then why I consult my parents? Verily, I seek Allah, His Apostle and the Home of the Hereafter." Then all the other wives of the Prophet did the same as I did.
    Ibrahim says; Notice how a married woman ( Prophet's own wives) are advised to consult their parents on matters that may have serious implications in the woman's life.

    I repeat DO NOT GENERALIZE THIS! WHY can't you understand?? HER PARENTS does not mean ALL PARENTS! WE HUMAN BEINGS ARE NOT SIMILAR!
    Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 8.4
    Narrated by Abdullah bin Amr
    Allah's Apostle said. "It is one of the greatest sins that a man should curse his parents." It was asked (by the people), "O Allah's Apostle! How does a man curse his parents?" The Prophet said, "The man abuses the father of another man and the latter abuses the father of the former and abuses his mother."

    Have I been bit by a mad dog? They did something which is NOT JUST! Why should ignore what they did to me? I too am a HUMAN BEING, I too HAVE FEELINGS, I belong to a FAMILY too, I have a MOTHER too, she too has FEELINGS! Why do you keep ignoring this fact?

    Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 9.9 Narrated by Abdullah bin Amr
    The Prophet said, "Al-Kaba'ir (the biggest sins) are: To join others (as partners) in worship with Allah, to be undutiful to one's parents," or said, "to take a false oath." (The sub-narrator, Shu'ba is not sure) Mu'adh said: Shu'ba said, "Al-kaba'ir (the biggest sins) are: (1) Joining others as partners in worship with Allah, (2) to take a false oath (3) and to be undutiful to one's parents," or said, "to murder (someone unlawfully)."
    Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 1.505 Narrated by Abdullah
    I asked the Prophet "Which deed is the dearest to Allah?" He replied, "To offer the prayers at their early stated fixed times." I asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, "To be good and dutiful to your parents." I again asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's cause." 'Abdullah added, "I asked only that much and if I had asked more, the Prophet would have told me more."
    Ibrahim says: Now assuming you consider it just that you elope with their daughter and that person consider it just to accuse you of kidnapping their daughter and their tribe consider it just to declare war on your tribe and hunting you down and killing you, your parents and your tribe…how much justice or injustice can all this lead to?
    quote:

    I hope you understand this, because after reading your posts, I can feel that this is what you are finding hard to believe. YOU think that I am teaching others to rebel against their parents? Well if one is right, he is right and when one is wrong he is wrong! Just like you say that when your intention is right then you have nothing to fear!

    Ibrahim says; Hold on a minute , you are saying all this things and you are declaring yourself right, so far as the participants of this forum are concerned they only know what little they heard form you, From what I have presented earlier, there is considerable room for doubt, so If you feel you have won your case, by all means I cannot do anything to stop you from believing as such but no court will grant you a verdict just based on what you had to say about it.

    I did not declare that I am right.."one is right, he is right and when one is wrong he is wrong!" I said that in response to your repeated claims that parents should always be allowed to make UNJUST decisions for their children and the children should keep on obeying them! You believe so, well does it change anything? Facts remain unchanged! Whether you believe them or not! You can satisfy only yourself by believing in your false assumptions! You believe that parents can NEVER make mistakes for their children on purpose, Parents do not have EGO? All this and more, I have tried to get this through you, but all in vain. You don't seem to assimilate that according to the Quran, parents aren't supposed to be obeyed if they are being UNJUST!
    Is this a court? Who's the Judge?
    quote:

    The children should inform their parents about the mistake, because if their parents make that mistake, Allah shall punish them right? and I don't think any child would like to see his/her parents being punished, or can they? SO I suggest that if the parents are wrong and the children know that they are then it is the children's responsibility to inform their parents about the mistake their parents are making. Its not rebelling!! Its rebelling against Allah if you don't stop your parents when they are doing something wrong, because a Muslim is obliged to spread the message of Islam and I don't think that it is only to be spread to non-Muslims alone, or someone who's younger to you.

    Ibrahim says; Brother, that man had been married for 27 years and lived his life and brought up his children , his experiences and trails are more then you on this planet. Sure he is wrong in his desire to chose a good husband for his daughter which is against his daughter's will but you nor her will be able to preach to him, just because you have some needs/desires. The procedure here is to approach the problem in a manner that can be accepted by him. Force is not the solution and never is. The "approach" to solving the problem had been dealt with by me and others on this forum BUT you seem to be looking for vengeance ( I hope I am wrong) and you, due to your youth as well as to his rejection of you should not be the person to approach him on such matters.

    Vengeance? when did I claim that I had certain intentions?
    Members of my family did approach him, and guess what, he does not want to go against his family's tradition, about marrying a girl from their family to a boy who belongs to a different caste!
    Is his objection VALID IN ISLAM? If NO, then what's the alternative? When the father is not willing to listen to his elder brother even, who doesn't seem to have any problem with this situation!
    I don't understand why is it so hard for you to accept that this is not made up!
    I am an adult, the girl is an adult and we intend to marry each other, we have informed about our intentions to our parents and still they are objecting because of this tradition they have!
    You and many other's have suggested that I should IGNORE the PAST! and forget about the whole issue and let the father do what he likes! Because Islam suggests that one should not dis-obey his/her parents even if they are being UNJUST!
    Consider this……….
    Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 2524 Narrated by AbuSa'id al-Khudri
    A man emigrated to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) from the Yemen. He asked (him): Have you anyone (of your relatives) in the Yemen? He replied: My parents. He asked: Did they permit you? He replied: No. He said: Go back to them and ask for their permission. If they permit you, then fight (in the path of Allah), otherwise be devoted to them.
    Second informing, pleading, advising is one thing and telling, demanding is another but you sound very much like demanding ( in this forum) and that is why I say it amounts to rebellion. now read what Allah (swt) said. say not to them ( parents) a word of contempt nor repel them but address them in terms of honor.
    So the warning is clear…it has to with how it is to be approached…and that is why I suggested you get some elders or imam or the jamath to handle this. Not people whom he may consider are still in their youth, especially someone who is against his judgment.
    Consider this…………
    Al-Tirmidhi Hadith Hadith 4933 Narrated by Abdullah ibn Amr
    Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said, "He who casts up the favours he has done, he who is disobedient to parents, and he who is addicted to wine will not enter Paradise."
    Nasa'i and Darimi transmitted it.

    Why don't you try considering those which I have posted which are directly relevant to the issue which is being discussed!
    Tell me about chosing verses and hadith that suits them!
    quote:

    "Marriage is the foundation for society anything that undermines it can only lead to ruin ( check out the western society) and cannot be encouraged in Islam. I hope you will be able to learn patience and be able to remove this feelings that you seem to be having against those who may have rejected you unjustly."
    I agree that it is the foundation for society, but if the foundation is based on a lie, how do you expect the building to last?

    Ibrahim says; Are you claiming all marriages are based on lies or you believe , if who ever you love ended up marrying any other ( forced or otherwise) it becomes a lie?
    Ofcourse it does when you hide about your past! Its indecent, insincere! Imagine your happy marriage gets ruined if someone disclosed about your past to your spouse! Don't tell me that it doesn't change anything, I am as human as you are, and a man too..! So use your imagination here!
    quote:

    When there is no sincerity, honesty, trust, genuinity (your words) in this marriage, how do you think it will nurture? Its like taking it for granted. Do you think the relationship would grow? Have you ever thought about the effects it will have on the children?

    Ibrahim says; All these are the ingredients to nurture relationships ( any relationship) But Do you know there are societies on this planet which still practice kidnapping a bride for themselves ? now this is similar to eloping but in such societies vengeance is not practiced and because it is their custom it is tolerated but that is not the case for you. I am not saying it is alright but you just do not seem to understand even love marriages can end up in divorces and many people are living together because they have no other choice.
    (meaning they are enduring their trials with patience and nurturing it as they know best)

    Generalizing again! anyways. Atleast they can't blame anyone for the choice they've made! It's so odd that someone else makes a decision for your life, without even considering your feelings! And then if (may Allah Forbid) something happens that person who made that decision for you says (Allah wanted this to happen this way, Don't blame me, IT was IN your FATE). And if the decision turns out to be a good one, they say (See I was RIGHT)!

    What these people fail to understand is that its their decisions which'll decide where they are headed to, heaven or hell, yet they keep blaming Allah(SWT) for everything that goes wrong after they make a decision!

    quote:

    Are you really concerned with what this could lead to? your observation in this matter is not favorable in the long run.

    Ibrahim says; So, all people must agree with you? This is like saying "you are with us or you are with the terrorists"

    No! So all people must agree with you!, because you have assumptions based on false beliefs and personal worldly experience.
    quote:

    I am not afraid of death, it'll come when its due, not before nor after. I would rather test this person, rather than watch him do wrong.

    Ibrahim says; am I stopping you? Testing a person is Allah (swt) absolute will and prerogative ours is only to convey what is right and forbid what is wrong. We do such things by making the right "approach".

    Yes you want me to stop and forgive them for being unjust to me!
    And what makes you think that my approach is not RIGHT?
    quote:

    So they'll not change overnight, but will they ever change if those who know that they are doing wrong keep on supporting them? Are we waiting for miracles here or what? We know that what they're doing is incorrect, then why are we so helpless in correcting them? WHY? Aren't the Muslim's obliged to do that?

    Ibrahim says: Simple! because Not everyone will be having this problem and people who may have come across such problems go about doing the things (like eloping/rebelling/inciting feuds ) not realizing that such problems can only be solved in the manner it is addressed/approached, not by accusing the person but by doing dawah in a respectful manner. Hence when I suggested you bring this matter to an imam that person is familiar to or their jamath leaders, you don't seem to understand too well. What else you expect others to do? If he is in this forum, maybe some of us can talk with him, but am sure that is not the case , right?

    If I were to even consider (like eloping/rebelling/inciting feuds ) would I be here? I want to get this problem out of our Society for GOOD! What makes you think that I expected someone to help me sort out this issue for me! You've got me wrong my friend! Very wrong!
    Her father does not understand his own elder brother, he didn't understand my family members!
    quote:

    Educate children, is a solution true, but when the husband and wife have interest in life, when they are happy with their marriage life, when they trust their spouses, and are sincere to them and when they are honest, and when the relationship is genuine. When the marriage has taken place how Allah has guided, the chosen bride/groom were chosen based on their CHARACTER, not, because of FAMILY STATUS, FORTUNE, BEAUTY! NOT when its the opposite. It can never happen, we'll continue having problems like this! I hope you don't have a problem in understanding this! I'll be more than glad to make it easy for you to do so.

    Ibrahim says; If you honesty want to believe what you want to believe, so be it. But Allah (swt) conveyed to all of mankind the following

    Read!
    22: 14 Verily Allah will admit those who believe and work righteous deeds to Gardens beneath which rivers flow: for Allah carries out all that He plans.
    15 If any think that Allah will not help him (His Apostle) in this world and the Hereafter let him stretch out a rope to the ceiling and cut (himself) off: then let him see whether his plan will remove that which enrages (him)!
    And the Prophet (pbuh) conveyed
    Al-Tirmidhi Hadith Hadith 4941 Narrated by Abu Umamah
    A man said, "Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) what rights can parents demand from their children?" He replied, "They are your Paradise and your Hell."
    Ibn Majah transmitted it.

    #2
    You had mentioned that in this scenario, its nothing to do with what’s right or wrong, instead it’s about what’s to be achieved.
    In your opinion it will start the revenge cycle and people will get killed and the list is endless.
    What are the parents achieving? Self-satisfaction?
    Father is not able to assimilate that her daughter wants to marry a non Jatt, and not only that but an Urdu Speaking, that means a non Punjabi! How is it possible that a Punjabi Jatt girl gets married to an Urdu Speaking Moghul, and that too MY daughter! Impossible

    The mother, in addition to how the father feels about this marriage, is having another problem that is very much her own ego. She cannot assimilate that her daughter prefers another boy instead of her brother’s son! A non-Jatt, is wrong too, but how dare she reject my brother's SON, that’s impossible, I will never let this happen! She’s rejected by nephew I will never accept her choice NEVER! “I will not let him win”

    And you expect me to sit in the back seat and let them do whatever they can do their daughter, after all they are the parents right? They can never be wrong? They know what’s best for their daughter?

    You’ve given examples about people who’ve tried to change things and have ended up hurting themselves and their families. You think that that is how it ends? My brother that is not the end, the end is yet to come, Judgement day, that day you and me and everyone else on the forum will know who was right and who is wrong. You are scared of the bitter consequences in choosing to prevent someone from making a mistake. You think that it’s not worth it to stop such parents from enforcing their unjust wishes on their children.
    My friend Islam does not support this excuse. You may assume that getting killed or hurt in trying to spread the right message is not worth it, well it might not be of any worth for this world, but you don’t know what its worth is after death.
    I realized that I had to contact her father because I had to tell him the facts but I was not allowed to, and then I realized that its not just her father, its our whole Society that is unaware. And I came here to discuss on this issue so that I could get the message across those who should know about what Islam says about our parents. I do not agree to the benefit of the doubt always being given in the favor of parents. I want the children to know that Allah tests us through those who matter to us the most, even parents are included. We cannot and should not choose parents just because they are our parents. We have a responsibility towards the whole of humanity. Islam teaches us to be JUST, and that means that there is no Compromise, Islam was famous for JUSTICE, and we all know that. But look at us today, where do we find JUSTICE? When we cannot implement Justice when dealing with our own family members, how are we supposed to be JUST with others?
    1400 hundred years and we have not been able to eliminate this caste system from our lives, don’t tell me that 1400 years is equivalent to one night!
    Believe it or not but its going to stay like this forever if we don’t take an action now. We should be patient when there are things beyond our control, but here, we are not even trying to change things and yet we are asked to be patient. Why are we waiting for miracles to happen! Why would they happen if you people do not want to get rid of this?


    Comment


      #3
      The Caste system is not related to Islam.
      The Caste system has HINDUISM written all over it.
      Yet it is not considered as Shirk to follow the CASTE SYSTEM?
      Hinduism is a Religion with many Gods, and One of those Gods did introduce this System, well, if the definition of SHIRK is that one must not associate any partners with ALLAH.
      I need to know what do you call it then? If someone has faith in a tradition that is from the Hindu Religion and that person claims to be a Muslim too, is he allowed to do that? He might not know that it is not right to do so, but how will he know? Its blended so well within our SOCIETY and people who know that it is not right prefer to SIT BACK and WAIT! For miracles to happen!
      Because people tried it in the past and they died! So we don't want to die like them!

      Comment


        #4
        Reference to your suggestions that I should try to contact other people like the Imam and Jama’ath leaders, well, guess what happened after I did so, and when they contacted her father.

        Her parents tell her
        “So you want to marry this person, who is insulting our family in front of strangers, he is even insulting you, how can you marry a person who doesn’t even respect you” What do you expect the girl to do in this scenario?
        Her father forced her to talk to those people who had represented me in the past, and tell them that she does not want to marry me anymore.

        And Her mother forced her to call me and tell me that I should stop all the efforts, that its all useless now! without letting the father know!


        What do you think one should do then?
        Unless and until we spread the true message, we cannot solve issues like this!

        I never came here to gather sympathies, only to discuss that PARENTS take ADVANTAGE of the AUTHORITY they ENJOY, only because the SOCIETY always gives them the BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT! And that PEOPLE DO QUOTE VERSES and Hadith that support the PARENTS and DISREGARD those which STRESS on BEING JUST!
        We are taught that PARENTS ARE ALWAYS TOP PRIORITY, EVEN IF they are WRONG! And seeing is believing, We cannot see Allah so we are only left with one option that PARENTS are TOP PRIORITY! And not Allah's Teachings!
        If GUIDANCE is from PARENTS it is JUSTIFIED No matter what! Be it family traditions or anything different! Do NOT dis -obey parents, they will not forgive you, but Allah will forgive your parents because they can NEVER make a MISTAKE!

        We meet on JUDGEMENT DAY! Inshaallah! I hope you people recognize me because I will Inshallah bring up this issue on that day!

        Allah Hafiz

        Comment


          #5
          Question
          According to Islam, do women have the independent right to choose their marriage partners? Can a woman be forced to marry someone against her will?

          Answer
          In a well-known tradition documented by Imaam Bukhari, the Prophet Muhammad is reported to have said: “A previously married woman shall not be married without being consulted and a virgin shall not be married without her consent.” This statement clearly establishes the principle of the female’s right to choose a marriage partner.

          The decision to marry and the process of selecting a spouse are perhaps the most serious choices we makes in life. It is therefore important to consult our parents or guardians, to seek their guidance, and to consider their advice. A guardian can only intervene if there exists a strong Islamic objection--one that would be acceptable to a qadi (judge). An example of a valid Islamic objection would be a marriage to an alcoholic or to a drug dealer. Differences in culture, age, ethnicity, or nationality are never acceptable objections in Islam.

          Neither the guardian nor anyone else can coerce a female to marry against her wishes, since Islam emphatically disallows forced marriages. This is clear from an incident in the life of the Prophet documented by the traditionist Nisaa’ie. The Prophet’s wife ‘Aishah reports that a young female came to consult the Prophet, saying,“ My father has married me to my cousin to raise his social standing and I was forced into it.” The Prophet sent for the girl’s father and then in his presence gave the girl the option of remaining married or rescinding the marriage. She responded; “O Messenger of Allah, I have accepted what my father did, but I wanted to serve a lesson to other women (that they could not be forced into a marriage).”


          A woman from the offspring of Ja'far was afraid lest her guardian marry her (to somebody) against her will. So she sent for two elderly men from the Ansar, 'Abdur-Rahman and Mujammi', the two sons of Jariya, and they said to her, "Don't be afraid, for Khansa' bint Khidam was given by her father in marriage against her will, then the Prophet cancelled that marriage."

          Narrated by Al-Qasim, Sahih Bukhari Vol-9, 99

          Hazrat Abu Huraira (RA) reported that the Messenger of Allah (SAW) advised: 'When a man whose devotion to religion and good morals appeal to you, conveys to you a proposal for marriage, give the girl (who is your ward) in marriage to him. If you did not do so, a great mischief and big strife will spread in the earth.'

          (mishkaat ul masabih)

          Comment


            #6
            QUESTION:
            Silence by the bride to be, what does it mean today!

            DETAILS:
            I would like to know that in today\'s world when we say that the girl is
            silent due to the fact that her father is an aggressive person and the girl cannot talk
            in front of him about whether she wants to marry the person her father wants to or not, why is this silence of the girl compared to the silence of shyness?

            Assalaamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatullaahi Wa Barakaatuhu

            The silence of the bride to be due to fear of her father is certainly not similar to the silence due to shyness. If a girl was forced into marriage and her silence was due to fear of being physically hurt or killed,
            etc.
            that marriage can be annulled in an Islamic court.

            In Islam, the individual right of an adult female is honoured and respected.

            and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best
            Mufti Ebrahim Desai
            FATWA DEPT.

            No one - not even the parents - have the right to force marriage upon an individual. In fact, it is clear that if the individual wants to press that he/she had been forced into marriage, then the marriage would lose its legal status and a divorce should be effected.

            The girl can simply refuse to marry and if she is afraid of being coerced into it, she might ask the state (court) to intervene. The court, in turn, must stop the marriage from taking place.

            The common occurence of forced marriages is not a religious but a cultural problem, in the sub-continent. Islam does not allow forced marriages.

            Regards,

            Moiz Amjad

            Comment


              #7
              In Islam, the entire humankind is one vast brotherhood, with Allah as their Creator and Master who looks upon them all as equal. All the barriers, racial and others raised against it by the self-interest of man are destroyed. "O mankind! Verily, We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. But verily the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Verily Allah is Knower, Aware." (49:13).
              "But those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no concern at all with them. their case will go to Allah, Who then will tell them what they used to do." (6:160). There is no denying that none of the moral creeds could afford to oppose a most rational and convincing Deen (religion) such as it is; though degraded humanity often followed the baser instinct; these were regarded as 'going astray" - their religion not being held responsible for their
              character. In the Quran such people are called as "unjust people" and "transgressors." Those who are unjust follow their own lust in their ignorance; "Nay but those who do wrong follow their own lust without knowledge. Who is able to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray.
              For such there are no helpers. So set thy purpose (O Muhammad) for religion as a man by nature upright - the nature (framed) of Allah, in which He hath created man. There is no altering (the laws of) Allah's creation. That is the right religion, but most men know not." (30:29-30).
              Addressing the humanity at large, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) appealed to them, in the words of the Quran, to sink their petty differences: "Unto each nature have We given sacred rites which they are to perform; so let them not dispute with thee of the matter, but summon thou unto thy Lord". "And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a guardian over it. So judge between them by that which Allah has revealed, and follow not their vain desires in preference to the truth which has come unto thee. For each of you we have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that he wishes to try you by that which He hath given you. Then try to outstrip each other in the pursuit of good works. Unto Allah you will all return, then He will inform you of that wherein ye differ." (5:48).
              The life of the believer, in Islam, is a severe trial: "Do men imagine that they will be left (at ease) because they say, we believe, and will not be tested with affliction." (29:2). "You will not attain unto piety until you spend of that which you love most. And whatsoever you spend,
              Allah is aware thereof." (3:92).

              To an ordinary Muslim, the word "Islam" is the name of the religion (Deen) which defines a way of life, guiding its followers individually and socially, whilst bringing its members into a fraternity transcending the boundaries of state, race, colour, language and traditions.
              The glorious Quran teaches that all bonafide religions teach true communication with Allah, which is the essence of Islam. "This day I have perfected for you your religion, and completed My favour on you, and chosen for you Islam as a religion" (95:3). The Divine Book also emphasises: The truth is that whoever submits himself completely to the will of Allah and acts righteously, shall have his reward with his Lord.
              No fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve." (2:112).
              Every Muslim must submit to the Divine Commands and seek guidance and enlightenment from His fountain (Samaddiyat). All his actions are disciplined by the laws of the Quran which enjoins ceaseless endeavour, righteous action ('Amal-e-Saleh'), creative thinking, commonsense, discernment, deep mental discipline and balanced judgment, which in the terminology of the Quran is Furqan - the fundamental principle on which man should base his whole edifice of purposive activity and his forward movement.The remarkable commandments of the Quran for the beneficence of human beings are clearly stated: 1. "Worship none save Allah (only), and be good to parents and to kindred and to orphans and the needy, and speak kindly to mankind, and observe prayer and pay the poor -due (Zakat)" (2:83). 2. "Give the kinsman his due, and the needy, and the wayfarer, and squander not thy wealth in wantonness" (17:26). 3. "give full
              measure when you measure, and weigh out with a right balance and justice" (17:35). 4. "Help one another in noble actions and pious duty. Help not one another in sin and transgression." (5:2).
              5. "Come not near adultery; verily it is foul thing and an evil way" (17:32). 6. "He is the most violent of adversaries who runs along in the land to create disorder and destroy the tieth and the stock and Allah does not love mischief-making: (2:205). 7. "But the chosen of Allah is he who so fulfils his pledge and is mindful of his duty to Allah, Allah loves those who are righteous." (3:76). 8. "O ye who believe! Be ye staunch in observing justice, and bear witness for Allah, even though it be against yourselves or your parents or your kindered. Whether the person be rich or poor, in either case Allah is nearer unto both (then ye are). So follow not vain desires lest ye lapse (from truth) and if ye lapse or fall away, then verily! Allah is ever aware of what ye do." (4:135).

              Comment


                #8
                Wa alaikum assalaam wa rahmatullah,
                Forced marriages are not legal. Islam is very clear about the woman having the choice and the final say in who she marries. You are right that many parents are putting pressure on their children to marry who they(the parents) like, but you do not have to follow that. The best way to get out of the confusion is to learn your deen correctly and learn your rights as a woman. No one can force you to marry who you don't want to marry. Our parents can only act as guardians and as advisors. If they do more than that, they have gone too far and have transgressed the bounds.

                It is better to marry someone who is a good person with good character. Love between you will grow witht the help of Allah. If you marry for these reasons, than you can rest assured that your husband will treat you well and that he will be kind to any children that you may have together. He will also be kind to your parents and his parents. These are the important considerations. On the other hand, if you know your rights and responsibilities as a wife and muslim, you will be able to reciprocate the kindness and you will understand how to live with your husband in tranquility and in harmony.

                You must be strong enough to resist your parents' coercion. Resisting coercion is not disobedience. If they are demanding that you give up your right to choose your mate, then you do not have to obey them. Allah gave you the right and you must exercise it. They will not have to live with the man you marry, you will. Be strong and learn your rights. If your parents cut you off financially for going against their wishes, work at McDonald's or somewhere to get the money you need to live and Allah is Ar-Razaq(the Provider). He will provide you with what you need in this life. Allah knows best. Umm Nurah.

                Comment


                  #9
                  6 out of 8

                  AssalamuAlaikum,
                  Please read this carefully,

                  Question:
                  Is it permissible for a father to compel his daughter into a marriage with someone she does not
                  desire?

                  Answer: It is not permissible for the father or someone besides him to
                  compel the one who is under his guardianship to marry someone she does not desire to marry.
                  Rather, it is necessary to seek her consent and permission due to the saying of the Messenger
                  (sas): The virgin is not to be married until her consent has been sought. They said: O Messenger
                  of Allah! What is her consent? He replied: Her silence. And in another wording: And regarding
                  the virgin, her father seeks her consent and her consent is her silence.

                  Therefore it is obligatory upon the father when she reaches the age of nine or greater that he
                  asks for her consent. It is likewise for her guardians, they do not marry her without her
                  consent. This is obligatory upon all of them. Whoever marries his daughter without
                  permission/consent then the marriage is not correct because one of the conditions of the
                  marriage is the consent and pleasure of both parties. So if he marries her without her being
                  pleased with it and compels her with strong threats or even beating, the marriage is not
                  valid...

                  It is required from the prospective husband, when he knows that she does not desire him for
                  marriage, that he does not pursue the matter even if her father facilitates this for him (give
                  him permission). It is obligatory for him to fear Allah and not to come to the woman who does
                  not want him for marriage... It is obligatory for him to beware of what Allah has made unlawful
                  upon him and this is because the Messenger (sas) ordered the girls consent to be sought (first).
                  Shaikh Bin Baaz in Fataawal-Mar'ah Vol. 2. p.50

                  Question:
                  I have a sister and my father married her to someone without seeking her
                  opinion and without her being pleased with it. She is twenty-one years of
                  age and he made a false testimony for the marriage contract (saying) that
                  the girl agrees to the marriage... So what is the ruling regarding this
                  marriage contract...?

                  Answer:
                  However the correct saying in this matter is that it is not lawful for the father or any one
                  else to compel the girl into marriage with someone she does not desire even if he is suitable,
                  because the Messenger (sas) said: Do not marry the virgin until her permission has been sought.
                  And this is general - no one is exempted from it, not (even) her guardians. It is reported in
                  Saheeh Muslim: The virgin, her father is to seek her consent...

                  Shaikh Ibn Uthaimeen in Fataawal-Mar'ah Vol. 1. p.47


                  Can parents make mistakes? Yes, of course - they are human beings, and there is no such thing as a human being who cannot make mistakes - even saintly ones. Is forced marriage legal? No, never - not in the law of the UK, USA or in Shari'ah law. Forced marriage is totally forbidden in Islam - in spite of what some misguided parents do seem to think. If a girl can show that she has been forced into marriage, she can have it declared null and void - she should get herself to a lawyer as soon as possible. The Sunnah is for parents to do their very best to find the most excellent spouses they can for their offspring, and offer them to them for acceptance or rejection - usually after several meetings or sightings (at parties etc). All this should be done tactfully, so that a rejected suitor and his/her family is not hurt by it. In fact, parents are urged not to turn down perfectly suitable suitors when they make an offer - - but in every case, it is up to the young man or woman to decide, and NOT the parent.

                  As regards things like financial status or character - the Prophet (pbuh) added the other reason for marriage being sought - beauty or physical charms. Dear friend, please remember that snobbery is never approved in Islam - a humble person is always preferred, and easier to live with. Wealth can be gained and lost in seconds; today's millionaires can be paupers tomorrow - read the news about the stock market! Poor people can become wealthy, through their own hard work, through inheritance, through good fortune. Nobody knows what their lot will be in life in this respect. To pick someone for their wealth is a dodgy reason. As for physical looks - these change all the time. Today's beauties are tomorrows fatties and baldies. A person can change through age, accident, ill health, pregnancy etc etc. I always think blind people have an advantage here - they are never led astray by someone's looks! Youth and beauty are temporary phenomena - I would be more impressed by someone making the best of what they've got, warts and all, and being clean, attractively presented etc. Character is the only thing that really matters - the potential you are born with, that which you develop as you pass through life, and the only thing you take with you into the Life to Come. It is vital. Why go for a beauty or a millionaire if he/she was spiteful, cruel, selfish etc etc?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Can parents make mistakes? Or not? Is forced marriage legal? Or illegal?, Is it allowed to marry a person of one's choice? Or not?, In choosing a life partner, priority should be given to the person's financial status?Or to the person's character?, Do parents have the right to force their children to marry someone just because they ASSUME that what they are doing is right?Or not?,Do we have to sit back and watch quietly if our parents are making mistakes?Or should we stop them from doing so?, Have things changed since 1400 years ago?Or not?, Should we solve every problem today with the solutions that were used 1400 years ago? Or not? Is the life of every person different than that of the other? Or not?, What if a person finds out that the person he/she has been married to doesn't truly love him/her, instead loves someone else and was married to him/her by force. How do you think a normal human being would respond to this situation? Do you think that the relation can survive? specially nowadays, when compromise is fading? When no one trusts anyone?, The young generation of MUSLIMS is worried about their life partner's virginity too! Because of the FACT that our PARENTS don't take proper care of their DAUGHTERS since the day they are born! And when the daughters want to marry someone of their choice, the PARENTS more concerned about their dignity, force them to marry someone else! THIS IS WHY HUSBANDS ARE GIVING DIVORCES THAT OFTEN! PLEASE HELP THE PEOPLE OUT! GET THE CONFUSION OUT OF THEIR HEADS! BEFORE ITS TOO LATE!


                    No- parents certainly do not have the right to force their children to marry. It is so strange to read about sitting back and watching parents make mistakes, because I usually have to deal with this the other way round - all too often parents go through nightmares trying to prevent their offspring from doing foolish things. It is all to no avail. It is the hardest thing in the world to convince any other person that (you think) they are in the wrong. It is so subjective. You can explain your case, try to prove it, warn and guide - but you cannot force another person's opinion. Allah Himself warned the Prophet (pbuh) of this - he could warn and guide, but NEVER enforce. However, as Muslims we also have the duty to make service of Allah and carrying out His wishes our first priority - so if any person, whether parent, spouse of offspring, is trying to make someone do something contrary to the will of God, we cannot just accept it quietly, but must point out our reasons politely why not, and act according to our consciences. The rules of 1400 years ago are still perfectly valid, so long as they are used with ijtihad, reason and logic and all the knowledge available in the present circumstances.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Assalamualaikum

                      I'm meeting again before the judgement day, I had missed one post.

                      Ibrahim says; I made this clear in my earlier post. I will say it again, you were looking for advice in a particular scenario and you went one step further to accuse most Muslims who used the Qur’an and sunnah to assert their point…which is when I stepped in and showed you how you too have ended up doing the same ( read my first post)

                      Ibrahim wrote earlier:
                      "I am indeed sorry for you , But What I have been trying to convey to you in principal is that parents have to be respected and even when they are in error , we cannot start to rebel against them in such ways that will destroy the harmony of that home or teach others to become rebellious against their parents"

                      O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice as witnesses to Allah even as against yourselves or your parents or your kin and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts) lest ye swerve and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do. 4:135

                      Ibrahim says: this verse was revealed concerning the emigrants and is to be cross referenced to this ayat.
                      4: 33 To (benefit) everyone We have appointed sharers and heirs to property left by parents and relatives. To those also to whom your right hand was pledged give their due portion: for truly Allah is Witness to all things
                      Ibrahim says in other words When the emigration took place from Makkah to Madinah, bonds and links of brotherhood were established between the Emigrants and the Helpers, and they shared in each other's inheritance. Later, when the Community was solidly established, and relations with those left behind in Makkah were resumed, the rights of blood-relations in Makkah, and the Helper-brethren in Madinah were both safeguarded. This is the particular meaning. The more general meaning is similar; respect your ties of blood, of neighbourhood, and of friendly compacts and understandings. Be just to all.
                      The general commentary for the verse you are quoting is Some people may be inclined to favor the rich, because they expect something from them. Some people may be inclined to favour the poor because they are generally helpless. Partiality in either case is wrong. Be just, without fear of favour. Both the rich and the poor are under Allah's protection as far as their legitimate interests are concerned, but they cannot expect to be favoured at the expense of others. And He can protect their interests far better than any m

                      I am not commenting on what you've said right now, because in my case I am still considered as a "mohajir" because my family had left India and settled in Pakistan during the partition. And the reason the father is objecting has a lot to do with this. Anyways, this is another big issue, I do not intend to argue right now.

                      You have all the reasons to know when and where one verse is applicable and when and where it has to be ignored or cross-referenced, and I thought you stepped in to show me that how I was choosing verses to support myself and denying the others which can go against me!
                      And now what is happening? Who is choosing verses and who is ignoring those, which are going against him? ME or YOU? Who ended up in doing the same? ME or YOU? I quoted verses that are never mentioned by many, you quoted those verses that are always mentioned by many! I didn't mention those verses to support myself, I want people to know that Allah wants us to do the right thing, even if it is against OURSELF, OUR PARENTS, OUR RELATIVES! So there is no excuse for us if we support our loved ones even if they are wrong, just because they are related to us! We have to support those who are right, even if we are not realted to them and even if our support for the other person might hurt us or our loved one. This is the true essence of Islam. We have to choose in between what's right and what's wrong, based on the Quran and Sunna.
                      We shall be judged by our actions.

                      Since that other thread was locked, I haven’t been able to sleep properly because I feel that instead of clarifying the confusion amongst the people I have ended up in confusing them even more, I had missed one of your posts, I don’t know how I missed it, but in that post your attitude towards the situation was not how it has been through out the thread. I am of the opinion that after writing that post you expected me to calm down a bit, which I didn’t of course, because I hadn’t read that post of yours. I am sorry. But there are things that need to be discussed, because I believe that this thread has been sending mixed messages.

                      Ibrahim says; Brother various verses were revealed for various purposes and have specific meaning and general meanings.

                      I hope you understand what I am referring to.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Dear Different,

                        Please try and note that Ibrahim has been trying to advise you sincerely throughout this topic. He has taken much of his own time to listen to you and reason with you.

                        No doubt this is an emotional subject to discuss, but please try and think three dimensionally.

                        From your first post in the previous thread you stated:

                        Now he tells me that he'll kill me and cause harm to my family if I try to contact them...
                        If this is true, I cannot see a happy marriage even if the two of you were to marry. Also take into consideration your own family’s safety and security, particularly your parents, and even more precisely, the security of your mother. For the love of another woman should not be greater than the love of ones mother. There are various supporting hadeeth, but to single out one in particular: the Mssenenger of Allaah – salallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam – was asked by one of his companions: who has the most right over me? The Messenger (saw) replied: “your mother”. Then the companion asked: then who? The Messenger (saw) replied: “your mother”. Then the companion asked: then who? The Messenger (saw) replied: “your mother”. Then the companion asked: then who? The Messenger (saw) replied: “ your father”.

                        As you can see, there is no mention at all of the wife. Yes, she has certain rights over the husband, but these do not even equate to the greater rights the parents have over their son/daughter, especially the mother. So your concerns at this stage should lie with the security of your family more so than of a girl who is not even a part of the household.

                        Every party involved believes he/she is correct. But we all need to question our own actions before we point fingers at others. It is not about villains and heroes. Everyone needs to be educated, but no one is willing to listen nor learn.

                        And from the Mercy of Allaah (swt), He is always willing to listen, if you ask Him to guide you in sincerity and humbleness. Return to Him in humility, and ask Him to make this affair easy for you and show you a way out. Make istikhaarah, wake up in the last third of the night, and cry to Him – subhaan wa ta’aala – in prostration while supplicating. Ask Him to forgive you of your sins, and the sins of those who are involved in this ongoing event. Ask Him to guide you and to guide them. Improve yourself as a Muslim (we all need to improve), read plenty of Qur’aan, and contemplate on its verses and their underlying meanings. Engage yourself in the remembrance of Allaah and have hope for His Mercy. Put your trust in Him and never be hasty. Ask Allaah to give you sabr during such a testing time … this will Insha’Allaah soften your heart, and attach it to Allaah and not to the world. And then whatever the outcome, whether the sister’s father agrees or not, at the very least, be content with it, because indeed this is what Allaah has willed, and Insha’Allaah not only will you get reward for your patience, but also something better shall await you.

                        Please brother, we can advice you as much as you like – as brother Ibrahim has sincerely been doing so, JazaahuAllaah khairun – but it is Allaah who will take you out of your misery and guide you, toward not only what is best for you, but also what is best for the sister, her family and your family. For verily it is He – subhaan wa ta’aala – who knows best. So insha’Allaah return, submit and surrender to Him in complete sincerity and have faith in His decree.

                        … and may He – the Most Wise – guide us all.

                        Take care Wassalaam,

                        Your brother in Islaam

                        Comment


                          #13
                          To be very honest, I have very high regards for brother Ibrahim, he has indeed put in a lot of time, nothing words can explain.

                          I have had excercised all the advice given to me on this forum, before I came here, brother Ibrahim did not know that, I do not blame him for that though, but his attitude towards me was not appropriate since the beginning, he thinks that I am teaching the children to rebel against their parents.

                          I had not known what I do now, since I have experienced this myself, I never expected a mom to do such a thing, to her daughter. I know how things have been for the past 4 years in my situation and I have experienced this benefit of the doubt being given to the parents, and some parents do take unjust advantage of it. This does not mean that all parents do it, but unfortunately there are parents who do. Parents are Human Beings too. Many people told me about how Islam teaches us about respecting parents and everything, and after coming across this scenario, I did a lot of research, but Islam stresses on Justice even more.

                          Imagine your parents being unjust with some one who is not related to them, maybe you being their child might not object to it, and you may even involve yourself with your parents, what do you think the other person will do if he ever gets the chance of causing harm to you or your parents? Will he respect your parents? Your parents might get hurt, and while your parents were being unjust with that person, you thought that if you did not support your parents you might hurt them or in other words disobey them. For that person your parents are ordinary people, you may be obliged to respect your parents even if they do wrong, but that person is not going to feel the same way as you do.

                          We are obliged to respect and obey our parents if their decisions are going to effect us only, but if their unjust decisions effect other innocent people, then I do not think that it is wise to support them or ignore what they are doing. Because this is how we make enemies and we end up having problems.

                          We do not realise that by, supporting unjust people we are only creating problems, and parents are not an exception. Its not just my problem, its a problem that is faced by many, and I do not think that much is being done to sort out such problems.

                          Let's not talk about my problem, because there are many things I cannot discuss and therefore it may be impossible for you all to get the exact picture.

                          I know what has been going on in my situation and I know who did what and how, but the thing is that after all that has happened, I feel that all this has a lot to do with the Islamic education we generally have, how some things have been exaggerated and how some things have been covered up, which is the cause of so much confusion.

                          The Quran is not read, people take things for granted, we believe in what we are told about Islam and we think that that is enough, and there is no need for us to look into it to find more.

                          This argument may go on forever unless and until we accept that we make mistakes too and that the other person can also be right.

                          I've been accused of choosing verses that suit me and that I disregard those which do not. I feel that the burden of this accusation is very heavy.

                          I want to clarify this, I really do.

                          I know how things have messed up and I know who has helped the most in this situation, and I know what the cosequences will be, I cannot just ignore all that has happened, just because someone has threatened to cause me or my family harm. People have kept ignoring this in the past and we can all see how corrupt our Society is today, its because those who see someone do wrong, do not have the courage to stop such people. And those people start getting used to hurt other people and it goes on and on.

                          Look at us, we know how innocent people are dying in Afhanistan, and we don't have the courage to do something about it, instead we are supporting the Americans achieve their goal. Consider Pakistani Govt. as your parent, can't you see how how we as children are supporting our unjust parents? We are doing this only because our parents need money and they are being materialistic, we are not supporting the innocent Afghani's because they have a border and that means that they are not related to us. We know that there is no justification in killing innocent people, but do we really care? as long as they are not Pakistani's why should we..! Even though we know that the Americans couldn't prove this to the Taliban that Osama bin Laden was behind what happened.

                          Islam doesn't teach all this, we are supposed to be JUST, I know its bitter to assimilate this, but there is nothing that can beat JUSTICE! We may obey and respect our parents even when they are in error, but will Allah support your parents if they made a mistake? and that too against someone? I doubt it!
                          But unfortunately we do not have the courage to assimilate this fact, we carry on justifying our stance and we enforce our personal view on others claiming being right.

                          Everything that happens cannot be blamed on fate, if this were the case, then there wouldn't have been heaven or hell, we all could claim that when everything was already written how are we supposed to be responsible for what we did wrong.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice as witnesses to Allah even as against yourselves or your parents or your kin and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts) lest ye swerve and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do. 4:135

                            Ibrahim says: this verse was revealed concerning the emigrants and is to be cross referenced to this ayat.
                            4: 33 To (benefit) everyone We have appointed sharers and heirs to property left by parents and relatives. To those also to whom your right hand was pledged give their due portion: for truly Allah is Witness to all things
                            Ibrahim says in other words When the emigration took place from Makkah to Madinah, bonds and links of brotherhood were established between the Emigrants and the Helpers, and they shared in each other's inheritance. Later, when the Community was solidly established, and relations with those left behind in Makkah were resumed, the rights of blood-relations in Makkah, and the Helper-brethren in Madinah were both safeguarded. This is the particular meaning. The more general meaning is similar; respect your ties of blood, of neighbourhood, and of friendly compacts and understandings. Be just to all.
                            The general commentary for the verse you are quoting is Some people may be inclined to favor the rich, because they expect something from them. Some people may be inclined to favour the poor because they are generally helpless. Partiality in either case is wrong. Be just, without fear of favour. Both the rich and the poor are under Allah's protection as far as their legitimate interests are concerned, but they cannot expect to be favoured at the expense of others. And He can protect their interests far better than any man.

                            And it is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter, that they should have any option in their decision 33:36

                            Verily Allah has cursed the disbelievers and prepared for them a flaming fire. They will abide in it forever, they will find no protrector or helper. On the day when their faces will be turned over in the fire they will say : "Oh if only we had obeyed Allah and obeyed The Messenger, And they will say " Our Lord! Verily we obeyed our chiefs and our great ones and they misled us from the right way. Our Lord! Give them double torment and curse them with a mighty curse (33:64-68)

                            Kufr basically means covering up the truth of Allah (SWT) and his Existance while shirk entails associate partners with Allah SWT

                            The Law in Islam emphasizes Justice and fair dealings with all. do not do injustice even to your enemies is the command of the Quran 5:2, 5:8
                            The opposite of Justice is oppression (zulm). wherever Justice is not done, it eventually turns into oppression. Allah does not allow oppression under any circumstances.

                            The word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and justice.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              It is vitally important that we as Muslims today, re-examine the basics of the social order in Islam and start structuring our lives and social relations in fashion would enable us to make a smooth transition to a totally Islamic society governed by a true Islamic state.
                              Calls for the resurrection of the Islamic state are heard all across the Ummah, but it seems that if this state was to materialize today, we would not be qualified to run it or to make the required transition due to our lack of knowledge, the norms, and the Islamic social structure necessary for the survival and continuity of the state. This matter must be brougt to the forefront of our proiorities because of nagging indications that all present forms of society are failing pathetically and this, in turn, is putting humanity on the verge of a colossal international conflict.
                              Only Islam has the practical solution that is unilaterally qualified to defuse such a conflict and restore a stable and virtuous society.
                              The first Muslim society in Madinah was founded on amazingly simple guidelines, yet astonishing in their complex diversities, comprehensiveness, and relevance for all times and places.
                              " O mankind! We have created you from a male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honorale of you with Allah is that (believer) who has Taqwa (piety or God-consciousness). Verily, Allah is all knowing, All-Aware." (49:13)
                              People live on this earth connected by all kinds of relationships, all of which carry some weight or have some attraction in their lives, these include lineage, power, wealth, etc. From these stem other connections, practical, economic, etc., where people have different positions and levels of status with regard to one another. So, some people have higher status than others in worldly terms. Islam, however, indicates that: "the most honorable of you with Allah is the believer who has Taqwa", thus, it ignores all the values that carry weight in people's lives, and replaces them all with this new value that is derived directly from one's relationship with his/her lord, Allah. This is the only standard tat is recognized in Islam.
                              The Prophet SAW said
                              "None amongst you truly believes until he loves for his brother that which he loves for himself" (Bukhari)

                              "Every Muslim is a brother to one another, he neither oppresses him nor does he forsake him. Whosoever eases a worldly grief upon his fellow Muslim, Allah SWT will ease one of the griefs of the Day of Judgement upon him. Whosoever shields a Muslim from scandal, Allah will shield him on the day of resurrection." (Mishkat, Bukhari, Muslim)

                              "He will not enter paradise, he whose neighbor is not safe from his transgression"
                              (Muslim)


                              We blame the Qadar accountable for all our short comings and failures while clearing ourselves of all the responsibility. this attitude would prevent us from trying to improve ourselves and solve our problems. We would never progress in life.

                              Do not remain helpless. Search for the cause of why you suffer. Perhaps you have a certain flaw that is causing all this. You know yourself better than anyone else. Do not deceive yourself. Your weaknesses may not be immediately apparent to you, but if you are honest and insightful, you will find what you need to. Confront yourself and set yourself right. If you have the right intention and determination, Allah will be with you. We must not assume that whateer hardships we encounter are Allah's way of punishing us.
                              "Those who strive hard in Our cause, We shall guide them to our pathes, and indeed Allah is always with the righteous" (29:69

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