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  • Ibrahim
    Originally posted by Sarah Splendor:
    Ibrahim, if Allah is all that merciful as you and Him claim He is, then why are so many people dying? Why are there famines and the death of innocent people every second of every day? That's not an act of mercy, that is an act of tyranny.
    Ibrahim says: salaams to all

    Sarah, imagine yourself, growing old, and lets say Allah(swt) gave you a special privilege to so that you can keep on growing old, I assure you, you will be begging to HIM every second to give you death, if you don’t believe me, go and ask those that are bed ridden due to old age .

    Hence death itself is a mercy at the same time, you may say why children and infants, innocent young people must die?

    In order to understand that you must understand the purpose of life and the reason why we have been marooned on this planet in the first place!

    To make this simple for you understand since you are still a child, lets say you made a doll and gave it capabilities to function on its own, surely you want to test it, right? , you want to know what it can achieve, and where it will fail, in order to do that you will put it to the test and make trials for it., right? Now imagine the doll is you and the one who created that doll is Allah (swt) …see that was simple to understand , wasn’t it?

    Let me refer you to a scholar who explained a small passage in the Qur’an for you to understand why afflictions and calamities are a must for mankind who have been given “free will” to do what they chose to do on this planet.

    The Purpose of tests and trials:

    In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Beneficent:

    " Never did we send a prophet to any community but We did afflict its people with tribulation and adversity, so, that they may humble themselves"

    "Then We replaced affliction with ease of life till, they grew affluent and increased in number" and said: "Our fathers also had their sorrows and joys."

    "We then took them to task, all of a sudden, while they were totally unaware" (of what was happening to them)

    Had the people of those communities believed and kept away from evil, We would have opened up for them blessings out of heaven and earth; but they gave the lie to the truth, and so, We took them to task for what they did.

    (Al-Qur'an : The Heights: 7:94-96)

    On these profound Qur'anic verses, a Muslim scholar Sayyid Qutb comments:

    These verses come after the surah (chapter) gives a brief account of the history of several nations to whom prophets were sent. Shortly afterward the surah (chapter) relates in considerable detail, part of the history of Prophet Moses and his encounter with Pharaoh as well as the changing fortunes of the Israelites as they first respond well to the call of Moses, then, decide to worship the calf in preference to worshipping Allah.

    Coming in between these accounts of the histories of former nations, these verses do not relate to a certain incident but they define a certain law of nature, which Allah, had established for human life.

    These verses tell us that the fortunes of man on earth change according to HIS law. The divine message itself, important and serious as it certainly is, is simply a means of the operations of this law, which is, in turn greater and more comprehensive than the message.

    We are told here that things do not just occur haphazardly, and man does not stand alone, as the atheist's claim. Whatever takes place is deliberate, occurs according to plan and contributes to the fulfillment of a certain objective

    Beyond everything that takes place there is an unfailing law that operates according to the Absolute Will of Allah, WHO had defined the objective and set the law.
    In the Islamic concept of life, man's will is an important factor in the movement of human history and in the interpretation of that history. But man's will and action, operate within the framework of Allah's absolute will and HIS destiny. Allah certainly encompasses everything in the universe. Man's will and actions have an interaction with the universe. There are certainly a host of factors, which influence human history but cannot be interpreted purely in economical or biological or in geographical terms.

    "Never did We send a prophet to any community but We did afflict its people with tribulation and adversity, So that they may humble themselves".

    When we read this, divine statement, the ancient legends which speak of deities and gods who nurse their grudges against human beings, sound absurd.

    There is certainly a purpose for Allah's infliction of tribulation and adversity on those who reject the prophets sent to them and the messages they deliver .

    Adversity, by nature, awakens the natural instincts, which may yet do their work. It may soften hearts, which have been hardened through being accustomed to going astray.

    Adversity may, indeed, make humans who are weak, turn to their CREATOR, Who is powerful and mighty. They may humble themselves, before HIM, pray for HIS forgiveness and submit themselves to HIM.

    Allah certainly does not need men's worship or their submission to HIM. Worship and submission to Allah are of benefit to men themselves. When men declares his submission to Allah alone, he frees himself from slavery to anyone else, especially to Satan, who wants to lead people astray and enslave them to their desires and caprice. They are free from subjugation by other human beings. They feel ashamed to listen to satan and do his bidding and they feel ashamed to incur Allah's anger by their own action, if, they humble themselves and pray to HIM, only in times of difficulty and hardship.
    All this helps them, to stick to the right path. Thus they liberate and purify themselves. This also enables them to lift themselves over their desires and refuse to submit themselves to subjugation by other human beings.

    Thus it has been the divine will that every community who rejects the message of the Prophet sent to them by Allah are to be afflicted with tribulation, adversity and misfortune in their souls . In the hope that all this, affliction, will revive their hearts.

    Pain , physical and mental, is a great educator, which taps the fountains of goodness in the human soul. It refines consciences and directs man to the source of mercy, which gives comfort to the weak and the afflicted: "So that they may humble themselves".

    "Then we replaced affliction with ease of life". Ease, prosperity, abundance, good health, numerous children, and security replace hardship, poverty sickness, sterility and fear. Two totally different situations, but both are indeed tests and trials for mankind.

    Why do we have to be indebted to God? I don't recall ever asking to be created so why should I bow down to a narcissist God instead of cultivating my own potential?
    Ibrahim says: Because your life is not yours , it has only been given to you for you to WAKE UP. So don’t postpone your awakening!

    Because even the air that you breath is a mercy from Allah (swt), If He chose to remove it you will cry like hell for life.

    I am sure you get my point but your rebellious nature will not seize until you listen to your conscience and Allah (swt) had so willed to guide you.

    Was salaam

    Remember Him in prosperity and He will remember you in adversity

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    [This message has been edited by Sarah Splendor (edited December 28, 2001).]

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  • Ibrahim
    Originally posted by faceup:
    If MAJORITY Islam cannot be substantiated as Peaceful or Tolerant then it is best that you do not pretend, provide lip-service and EQUATE Islam with Rahman & Rahim(Benevolent & Merciful) because it just will not cut it.
    Ibrahim says; salaams to all,

    Getting confused faceup? Work on this two words , Islam & Muslims , you might understand better. IF Allah (swt) so willed

    Soon after, find out what Islam teaches…visit

    Soon after find out why Muslims can go to hell or heaven depending on their works.

    Soon after, see if this makes sense to you

    No steam or gas drives anything until it is confined. No life ever grows until it is focused , dedicated and disciplined

    Thus if you find yourself being confined or restricted in Islam, it is because Allah (swt) wanted you to grow and fulfill His purpose not because of lack intolerance to your freedom to harm yourself.

    One cannot call Allah - Benevolent & Merciful
    Ibrahim says: getting even more confused faceup? Allah (swt) is the Creator and He says He is Most Gracious and Most Merciful and we know for sure that He is Most Gracious and Most Merciful, because you are still alive for uttering and doing all that you do

    and have nothing in their practise that resembles those qualities.
    Ibrahim says: Allah (swt) is the Creator and human beings are one of his creations , I am sure you learnt that , but I guess you misplaced it !

    Now the creations are being told to be good and given time to understand and practice such goodness by emulating the appointed teacher that are chosen by the Creator.

    Who should be blamed for failure, you are the Creator?

    DO SOMETHING. Either lead , follow or get out of the way

    Hope that helps,

    Was salaam

    Your attitude determines your altitude

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  • faceup
    Originally posted by FactFinder:
    I sincerely believe that SS has a chip on her shoulder for some personal reason.

    This is prohibited in Islam. Women like SS need to clarify what they prefer, nitpicking on ayahs or being left with a child to raise without support from the man who made her pregnant.
    Dear all,
    It is imperative for all to engage in their personal JOURNEY in SEARCH of the TRUTH/ANSWERS.

    For vast majority of muslims this JOURNEY is denied and introspection & QUERIES can lead to heresey - such is the state of islam of today.

    BOTTOM LINE - If Islam is for Peace and is Tolerant then be prepared to substantiate it in the practise (Sharia'h) of the Ummah as Sarah(SS) is demanding. That is her SEARCH and I commend her for it.

    If MAJORITY Islam cannot be substantiated as Peaceful or Tolerant then it is best that you do not pretend, provide lip-service and EQUATE Islam with Rahman & Rahim(Benevolent & Merciful) because it just will not cut it. One cannot call Allah - Benevolent & Merciful and have nothing in their practise that resembles those qualities.

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  • FactFinder
    I sincerely believe that SS has a chip on her shoulder for some personal reason.

    The west has transformed substantially in the last century or two, depends on what youa re looking at. There was a time not far back when women in the west could not own property. Whereas, in Islam they have had these and better rights for 1400 years.

    The emancipated woman is in the eyes of ignorant people a boon. Let them find out how many women are single mothers and the man has used them for his physical pleasure and then walked off. This is prohibited in Islam. Women like SS need to clarify what they prefer, nitpicking on ayahs or being left with a child to raise without support from the man who made her pregnant.

    Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

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  • Yasmine
    Now, if u can't understand other viewpoints other than your's, no one can do anything about it. U can ask the same thing till you're blue in the face and no matter how many ways some one tells u , it still won't make sense.

    I'm just not in the mood to write someone else's thesis.

    Don't the rest of you feel like suckersto be repeating the same thing over and over again to someone who has the same theme in all her threads?

    There's gotta be much better ways to spend your winter break than argue with someone who won't listen or do the grunt work for her thesis.

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  • faceup
    Dear All,

    Note all oppressive verses that exists in Quran and other Abrahamic religions are equally voided by
    enlightened verses.

    There is Guidance in those scriptures but the Clergies (men) for all Abrahamic religions have chosen the oppressive guidance over the enlightened guidance.

    The Easy Solution is to Adopt an evolving Sharia'h that reflects time & place and stop claiming that the present Sharia'h (Practise) is for all Eternity.

    The present sharia'h for vast majority is based on the ayaths cited by Sarah while those cited by Shah Jehan exists on paper only.

    The Sharia'h can be EVOLVED to reflect the verses cited by Shah Jehan. There are verses DEMANDING EQUALITY as the following three, for example, but when it comes to practise the Men inherently choose the oppressive guidance and go to all lengths to protect & defend their turf.

    [al-Azab 33:35] Lo! men who surrender unto Allah, and women who surrender, and men who believe and women who believe, and men who obey and women who obey, and men who speak the truth and women who speak the truth, and men who persevere (in righteousness) and women who persevere, and men who are humble and women who are humble, and men who give alms and women who give alms, and men who fast and women who fast, and men who guard their modesty and women who guard (their modesty), and men who remember Allah much and women who remember - Allah hath prepared for them forgiveness and a vast reward.

    [2:187]They (your wives) are your garment and you are a garment for them.

    [35:18]No bearer of burdens shall be made to bear the burden of another.

    Something to ponder.

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  • GammaDilation
    *spots the two scholars (SJ ) and (SS) and feels sad at his next to none 'knowledge'... quickly goes back to gup shup cafe... to write somthing...*


    keep it up....

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  • Shah Jahan
    The misogyny I am talking about is hatred and suppression of women in all areas of life, political, economic, societal, religious, etc.

    SS: That is exactly what I am objecting to, the common interpretation of mankind is MANkind, not humankind, which is why it is no longer a politically correct term. However, Islam and Christianity do not observe this political correctness.

    As for the order of creation, read my previous post.

    SJ: It hardly makes a difference as to WHICH term you use as both refer to humanity as a whole and NOT a particular gender. MANKIND does mean HUMAN kind in quran. Consider this argument closed about the 'political correctness' closed as it is bothersome and we wont get any work done(I shall open a thread for sura al-nisa where I shall discuss the sura and to who allah is talking to and who it refers to)again I post this as allah has clearly made them equal in his light. you shall see allah is addressing everyone:

    For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise, for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward. (33:35)

    In this verse Allah addresses men and woMEN(see how the word men is also in women?)

    SS: Call me stupid, but the word woman is two words added on to man, thus the role of women is secondary. This is a widely accepted interpretation by feminists.

    SJ I wont call you stupid. Just arrogant. I am finding it a bother to debate with a person who thinks that by putting
    and+woman=Secondary role in life. Allah is talking to both of the sexes and is judging them equal in his eyes and law. I repeat, Allah is not sidelining womem and he is making them EQUAL with men by putting the AND(can I help it if feMALE and woMAN have men in it. why dont you challenge this, sister?)

    SS All verses should be addressed to both. The fact that the ones I have given do not show some kind of shortcoming in the Quran.

    SJ By this you mean that there should be no difference in ANYTHING? HELLO! men were created different and so were women. If they can have physical differences they can have social and morale ones too! If you dont agree to this than we all need plastic surgury.

    SS the fact that there is the possibility of abuse of women proves my point that the world is mispgynyst and you can't deny that Allah created the world and society, so Allah must be misogynyst too.

    Besides, the wording in the ayat is very derogitory, it makes me think women are incapable of defending themselves and thus males have to be prohibited from bringing harm upon them. I can't stress this enough, men have the power, women do not to the extent that divine messages are intended for men and narrated BY men.

    SJAllah has left the woes of the world for us to embrace. The poor man gets no food and the deaf man cant hear. I dont see them challenging Allah. It is his will and he has created some weak and some strong. Woman are abused so are social insurance workers! we are all abused for something or the other. Asians are abused for thier skins, so are blacks. That makes Allah racist, sexist ect. We are not ment to be equal and it shows by the way we look and act. men cant suckle children so that means men are abused and allah is abusing us. How absurd! SS I am begging to doubt the point of all this. If women are abused here they shall get thier dues in the next life(allahs promise)

    SS Do you really, truly believe I have rights when God tells a man to treat me fairly but has no such advice for me?

    "Inherit women without their will," for god's sake, this is ENGLISH we're talking about. The word 'inherit' has connotations that are usually attached to objects, thus putting women at the same level with objects. The Quran is not fair when it uses language as demeaning as this. Why esle do you think the West has so many problems with Islam and confuses the meaning of it so much; the Quran's language gives us reason to find faults in it. As for letting it stay in Arabic, yeah sure, blind faith and all, since many people don't understand Arabic.

    SJ You are not paying attention Sarah. Al-nisa is addressed to men ON the issue of women. So naturally women will not be addresses to but it is made as a guide for women to defend thier rights. What part of :You are forbidden to inherit women against their will dont you get? This means you cant own women without thier allowing you to! Like slavery I guess and this does NOT mean marrige! You are starting to demonstrate you absurdness and arrogance now. I warn you I shall not argue anymore if you start twisting verses of quran for you own good. For you clearly dont want to listen to what I have to say.

    SS yes, but punishment for women who have committed illegal intercourse is mentioned FIRST in Surat Nisa, the men and their punishment is talked about later. I already said this in my first post when I gave the first ayat in Surat Nisa about sex outside the bounds of marriage.

    Again, if this surat is sent down to men instructing them how to handle women fairly (so-called fairness, I might add,) why does Allah seem to make women so weak that they cannot protect themselves but instead men must be the ones who are restrained? Can't you understand the negative and misogynyst undertones in these ayats? If not, I recommend some kind of poetry course.

    SJ Women ARE weak (physically) you cant deny it no one can! Men do all hard maual labour. I have never seen a woman do manual labour such as building and heavy sack carrying! But they gain all the lack of physical weakness in thier emotional and social powers

    As for sex. men are mentioned and so are women. both have equal punishments(women get lesser punishment and they are only buried up to thier arms and stoned while men are buried up to thier necks. if the wowman pulls her self out she is set free. RIGHTS!)be they mentioned afterwards! Women are naturally stronger in the fact that they can keep thier lusts to themselves and keep themselves retrained. Men cant and the sight of anything fleshy gets them all charged up. Again physical being comes into play we are different in many ways.

    SS Oh, I know quite a bit of the Quran and I am interpreting this stuff not as a Muslim but from a totally athiest perspective and telling you why I believe women are portrayed so negatively. Again, the word 'inherit' is used for property and objects, to use it for women is to allude to their subordination.

    The same YOU YOU YOU. There are more women in this world than men yet the surat is addressed to men. The woman is the object, man is her protector, there is a ayat I quoted in my first post that you seem to have neglected to contest here, go read that again. It SAYS man is woman's protector. If this is the word of God, how can you, being a Muslim, argue with that?

    SJ Yeah! men have the duty to protect women as a mother has the duty to protect her child. This ayat says for a man to protect his wife in many forms physically, emotionally, spiritually ect. he should provide shelter, food protect her from prying eyes, cold ect.! Again men have more physical power than women. You cant deny that!

    The ayat has cleary separated the two(women and objects) by saying you can own them! You are not understanding my point. If YOU belive that women are portrayed so negitavely I cant do anything about it. You are like the worm who thinks to soil even the most beautiful and tasty of all fruits

    SS Why should I be protected? Why can't you quell your sexual desires? Do you know how restructing and incredibly cumbersome covering up is? I am stifling my own body. This is not for my own good, this is an act of tyranny from a male God (He He He He He, don't say society, God CREATED society) and we can't even fight against this male God because the only people who have the power are MALES.

    And honey, remember God made men more powerful, he could as easily have made men to possess equal power as females possess and made the levels of testorone inconsequentional or whatever. Remember God made us and he made men with the ability to abuse women. Why should more than half of the world suffer because God chose things to be a certain way? The figure of God is male, even if the entity is not. How we interpret God is male. And God is misogynyst.

    Covering up restricts you, it's hot in there. Why doesn't God tell you to guage your eyes out? I really do believe covering up and the removal of sight are equal things that equally hamper our body's functioning.

    SJ why cant you cut your hair, have transplant to reduce your size grow a beard and run around like men? Remember, sister, Allah made women give milk to thier children. if he wished he could have men spilling milk to thier children. Does this mean god is female and he is unfair to us males. he has made you a mother(think mother no one can be a mother. Mother is the biggest pwer of all. men envy the fact that thier children love thier mothers more)?

    Again, god has decreed justice and everyone shall sow what they reap. Its just a matter of time sister. If women are abused here(which Islam forbids and you havent shown a single proof that shows Islam gives all right to abuse women. If you studied Islamic history you would see that Islam gave rights to women which were deprived of EVERYTHING.

    SS Women have a secondary role. I want proof. And isn't it funny how no women brought down any religion?

    SJWho says they have a secondary role? Without these great women Islam and faith would never have spread. These women were partners in faith. Not some secondary character. A man brought down islam, without his wife he wouldnt have been able to spread it. No, no woman has brought down a religion but has always been the first to embrace and spread it.

    SS Why did God make me so ****ing weak and incapable of defending myself? This puts the body above the mind, a HUGE sin in my books.

    Oh powerful male! Help me! I am being raped by these vicious men and do not have the strength needed to defend myself! Make me wear hijab and let someone have complete control over me so that I cannot be raped (except that'd be rape of the mind because women are not allowed to experience the world the way men do and interact with the wolrd like men can)!

    SJThat is why allah made a veil for all you females. To protect you from more powerful men. Allah gave men physical prowess and gave women emotional prowess. It blances out sis!
    Who says women cant interact with others? They can do any lawful job they wish as long as they stay in huddod(limits) of thier pardah(veil) men also have to stay in huddod and control themselves too. Its not only the owmen who have restrictions sis.

    SS What her husband GIVES her, not what she gets for herself! Look at what you've written, the feminists would be clamoring to show you the error of your ways.

    Women get only half of what a man gets. As for the fact that men have to support their families, well, make women do that too. Make them use their brains.

    I am against any kind of abuse, and that includes mothers hitting their kids, so give another example. No, the tables aren't turned honey, so many people are disillusioned with Islam and point to it's misoyngy, among other things, to discredit it. There is something fundamentally wrong with this religion's portrayal of women.

    SJ this is what I said(did you even read it?): Just because Allah says for a woman to guard her hubby's property it doesnt mean that she has none of her own. women can have thier own property and it is fully allowed in Islam. Islam fully allows a woman her own property. remember how the prophets wife helped islam by giving away her property for the faith?

    Me: I read somewhere while on a journey, a man can take his wife whenever he wants. Does that count as reading other parts of the Quran? So, Surat Nisa is not a good representation of Quran (tell me if I'm wrong but doesn't Nisa mean women so shouldn't this be the epitome of Islam's repeated assertions that men and women are equal?)

    SJYes, Nisa means women and it has been sent down by allah for men on the subject of women(its also for women to see thier rights and what they can and cannot do)But if you read lattter suras you shall see that allah very rarely adresses the man but always says: oh ye who belive! or oh belivers! If a man takes a woman to a lawful place she can choose to go or not as it always depends on which position he is taking her as(husband, son, father ect.)

    SS I know, I regret that but I regret more that I am treated unfairly by Allah because I am a female.

    [b]SJ[/b ]No SS, Trust me. You are not treated unfairly. You have more rights than almost all women. You have protection. You have faith and you have law by your side if you are with Allah. If you read all of Quran I promise you, you will see how well women are to be treated in light of Allah!

    SS The bad is in the way we interpret it and unfortunately, too many people interpret it the 'bad' way for you to ignore them all and still sound like a guy who believes that men and women ought to be equal.

    SJ Men and women are ment to be equal (in most things as they cant be WHOLLY equal) I think you are the only person I have met who thnks there is bad is quran. The feminists who blame HARSH islam have never read quran at all. they see veils and think "thats bad" but they dont know WHY women wear veils.......As for me and my sisters and 99% muslim women Quran is totally fair to everyone. You get what you deserve.....


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  • GammaDilation
    quote :

    Me: the fact that there is the possibility of abuse of women proves my point that the world is mispgynyst and you can't deny that Allah created the world and society, so Allah must be misogynyst too.

    sarah what are we discussing again?... i have lost the big picture... if ur saying that the world is "unfair to women" and "abuses them" then its correct ... ur perfectly correct.. and its sad.. its the sign of the apocalypse

    However, to say that allah/god/islam is unfair to women is an insult... ur probably more informed about this that islam gives more rights and previliges to women than any other religion ... and considers them to be equal ... BOTH MALES AND FEMALES HAVE BEEN GIVEN CERTAIN PREVILIGES AND UNIQUE CHARACTERISTICS (UR BEAUTY AND MENTAL CALMNESS AND MY PHYSICAL STRENGTH)
    all the 'restrictions' on women under islam or for a reason and shoudnt be considered as a 'restriction' at all... they are in place to put society in order and mantain a healthy family think about it

    And why doesnt allah interfere and change the current situation ?? : because its all a game... our life on earth is a test... a test that would determine our status in after life... with power ( physical strength of males ) comes great responsibilty and males (over all) have certainly abused that power ... suppressing and abusing women ... i agree ... its a hard fact .... accept it ...


    Besides, the wording in the ayat is very derogitory, it makes me think women are incapable of defending themselves and thus males have to be prohibited from bringing harm upon them. I can't stress this enough, men have the power, women do not to the extent that divine messages are intended for men and narrated BY men.

    sarah accept it please (dont get me wrong dear)... women were created weak(er) interms of physical and emotional strength... u cant deny that... and there are many reasons to why god would have done that

    and messages from god were not just intended for men.. quran is not just a book of instructions is a book that defines how to live... from eating, sleeping to political and social order...
    [b]SARAAHHHH... Superfically all the arguments will seem unjust ... but there is a reason behind them... and u cant decipher the HIDDEN BEAUTY OF THIS MAGNIFICENT SYSTEM unless if U WANT to get to the true purpose.... look through the eyes of a muslim not through the eyes of
    Quote: "agnostic and atheist"
    ur a muslim (according to ur passport and COB ) ... i am just like u i.e. i dont always agree with THE BOOK... however thinking about it reveals a hidden reason... (ya i know its easy for me to accept it as i am a male ... but again every thing in THE BOOK is for a reason and all the 'restrictions' on women are not restrictions ... world is not completely misogynst i am an example of this... and i would rather kill my self (promise) then to abuse a lady )

    keep going sarah i believe in u ... ur half way there...
    truth is out there... some where (X-files )
    ******************1 year , 1 month and 23 days left***********

    [This message has been edited by GammaDilation (edited December 28, 2001).]

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