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    One can only face Ka'ba if Earth was Flat or...

    Most of the muslims follow Quran literally or word per word; so, the following verses from the Quran to face Ka'ba while praying are followed literally and that includes considering those who do not face Ka'aba or consider that Allah is everywhere, as "bent on wickedness" :

    [2:149]"From whencesoever thou startest forth turn thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; that is indeed the truth from thy Lord. And Allah is not unmindful of what ye do."

    [2:150]"So from whencesoever thou startest forth turn thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; among wheresoever ye are turn your face thither that there be no ground of dispute against you among the people except those of them that are bent on wickedness; so fear them not but fear Me; and that I may complete My favors on you and ye may (consent to) be guided."

    Consider this:
    If you are in Lahore facing the Ka'aba, are you facing Ka'aba or facing skywards?

    Take a ball, apple or any spherical object, mark the two points - Lahore & Mecca and you will see what I mean.

    The Earth is a sphere so the only way to face the Ka'ba in the literal sense is if the Earth was Flat or, if you were standing in front of the Ka'ba.

    Maybe - According to the Quran, the Earth is Flat, I mean just flat not square, just flat like ..." Spread out like a carpet (HQ) and this is why - one is commanded to face Ka'aba!

    Allah says so in the Quran that the Earth is Flat and the mountains are firm & movable and serve as pegs (nails). So, literally speaking and, this is the only way to follow the Quran or follow it literally or word for word then the Quran is wrong on both counts. Notice the many times the Quran stresses the points about Earth being Flat and mountains serve as nails to hold the carpet in place from moving & shaking?

    Sure - you can refute my statements; but can you please do so - literally; because everything else would be "bent on wickedness".

    The Holy Quran on the Earth as Flat & Mountains as pegs:
    ================================================== ============
    · Earth spread out (like a carpet), mountains firm…15:19
    [al-Hijr 15:19] And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable; and produced therein all kinds of things in due balance.
    · God made earth like a carpet spread out…20:53
    [Ta Ha 20:53] "He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky." With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others.
    · The earth is like a carpet spread out…43.10
    [az-Zukhruf 43:10] (Yea, the same that) has made for you the earth (like a carpet) spread out, and has made for you roads (and channels) therein, in order that ye may find guidance (on the way);
    · Allah spread out earth and set mountains standing firm…50: 7
    [Qaf 50:7] And the earth- We have spread it out, and set thereon mountains standing firm, and produced therein every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs)-
    · Allah has spread out the earth…51:48
    [adh-Dhariyat 51:48] And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: How excellently We do spread out!
    · Allah made the earth a carpet…71:19
    [Nuh 71:19] "'And God has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out),
    · Allah made the earth as a wide expanse…78:6
    [an-Naba' 78:6] Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse,
    · The earth is made as a wide expanse…79:30
    [an-Nazi`at 79:30] And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);
    · Allah set up mountains firm lest the earth shake…16:15
    [an-Nahl 16:15] And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves;
    · Allah set on mountains high lest the earth shake with them…21:31
    [al-Anbiya' 21:31] And We have set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with them, and We have made therein broad highways (between mountains) for them to pass through: that they may receive Guidance.
    · Allah set mountains immovable…27.61
    [an-Naml 27:61] Or, Who has made the earth firm to live in; made rivers in its midst; set thereon mountains immovable; and made a separating bar between the two bodies of flowing water? (can there be another) god besides God? Nay, most of them know not.
    · Allah set mountains firm for earth not to shake…31:10
    [Luqman 31:10] He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky, and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs.
    · Allah put mountains standing firm…77:27
    [al-Mursalat 77:27] And made therein mountains standing firm, lofty (in stature); and provided for you water sweet (and wholesome)?
    · Allah put mountains as pegs…78:7
    [an-Naba' 78:7] And the mountains as pegs


    #2
    I am not of a religious persuasion, so I would like to clarify as follows;

    The Koran is a beautiful poetry, and this is a poetic license. The idea is to think of Allah when you pray. And if it helps to think of him then look in his direction. Since he is everywhere . it does not matter which direction.

    By the way, when the Koran was written, the earth being flat was the accepted concept. So the author was using teh best information available at the time.

    Comment


      #3
      What Shape is the Earth?
      Today we can look at a globe and know that the earth is somewhat like a ball, a sphere. The Qur'an makes certain statements that led Muslim scientists to understand long before their European counterparts that the earth is spherical. When Europe was in the dark ages thinking that the earth was flat, Muslim students were using globes for studying the earth in Islamic universities.
      Since it was not the purpose of the Qur'an to teach science, the Qur'an did not need to state explicitly that the earth is spherical in shape (or more precisely, a geoid). But some of what the Qur'an says stimulates you to think of the world as a globe. Take, for example, the following verse: "Have you not seen how God merges the night into the day and merges the day into the night?" (Qur'an 31:29).

      Another verse tells us that God coils the day and night around: "He coils the night upon the day and He coils the day upon the night" (Qur'an 39:5).

      The word `coils' in the verse above is a translation of the Arabic verb kawwara which is used in describing the action of coiling a turban around the head. To understand this statement fully, readers of the Qur'an had to think of the earth as a sphere.

      To fully appreciate the above two statements in the Qur'an, try this experiment at home:

      You need a flashlight and a globe. Take these items into a dark room. Using the flashlight to simulate the light of the sun, shine the light upon the globe. Notice that only one half of the globe is lighted up. The other half is in darkness. Half the world is having day, the other half is having night. Now, recall that the earth is continuously rotating on its axis and will go around completely in twenty four hours. Slowly turn the globe around to simulate this rotation. Notice that as the globe turns, the day is going around the globe to light up the other half of the world. The night is also going around the globe to give rest to the other half of the world.

      The day and night are perpetually coiling around the earth with some degree of interpenetration. This is exactly how it appears to astronauts during their space flights.

      Dr. Bucaille makes the following remark: "This process of perpetual coiling, including the interpenetration of one sector by another, is expressed in the Qur'an just as if the concept of the earth's roundness had already been conceived at the time — which was obviously not the case." (The Bible, the Qur'an and Science, p. 165).

      This obviously did not reflect the level of learning of the time, but was helpful in stimulating Muslim scientists to conceive of the earth in its real shape. How could this knowledge get into the Qur'an?
      Soon will We show them Our Signs in the furthest regions of the earth and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the truth. (Qur'an 41:53)

      Source:
      themodernreligion.com

      Faceup, I suggest you stop visiting anti-islamic sites and stop posting misleading posts like this one.

      Tanha, quran was not written, it was revealed. And author was none, but Allah(GOD).

      PS: What does this thread have to do with the this forum? oh lord!


      ------------------
      Leslie Stahl: "We have heard that a half million children have died (as a result of sanctions against Iraq). I mean, that is more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?" Madeleine Albright: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price, we think the price is worth it." -- A CBS Sixty Minutes interview between Leslie Stahl and U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, on 12 May 1996

      Comment


        #4
        faceup mate, it's great that you're back. I really missed this sort of stuff

        can you imagine the effort it takes to dredge this sort of stuff up?

        Anyway, i hope you get answers to your questions, but while we are here focusing on dumb questions here's one i have:

        if the earth is a sphere, is it possible that it could be used as a tennis ball in an inter-galactic game of tennis between Darth Vader and Chewbacca in some distant time in the future? (Possibly some time when the scale of the earth could be reduced in size to make this possible).

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by faceup:
          The Holy Quran on the Earth as Flat & Mountains as pegs:


          [Ta Ha 20:53] "He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky." With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others.

          Sexual pairs

          · The earth is like a carpet spread out…43.10

          Layered yes, like a carpet yes, the crust lies on top of the Sial and Sima, subcrustal structures....like a carpet lies on the floor.

          · Allah has spread out the earth…51:48

          Yes, Arther Holmes, plate tectonics, the earth/crust spreads on axis called spreading centres.

          · Allah set up mountains firm lest the earth shake…16:15

          Roots of mountain belts add stability to localised crustal structure.


          [an-Nahl 16:15] And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves;

          See above...they act much like "pegs"

          · Allah set on mountains high lest the earth shake with them…21:31

          Scientifically has basis.

          [Luqman 31:10] He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky, and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs.

          i.e. two sexes of eah animal
          · Allah put mountains as pegs…78:7
          [an-Naba' 78:7] And the mountains as pegs

          Yes, pegs....!!!! creating localised stability in crust.

          I am a geologist.

          I have studied the Quran from a spiritual and scientific viewpoint....there are many scientific facts within the Quran...the water cycle is fully explained, the embryonic growth satges of the human and much more.

          Thap

          Comment


            #6
            1)
            Originally posted by Thap:
            I am a geologist.

            I have studied the Quran from a spiritual and scientific viewpoint....there are many scientific facts within the Quran...the water cycle is fully explained, the embryonic growth satges of the human and much more. Thap
            Thank you for the explanation! Please write again if you disagree with the following:

            Orthodox Islam demands that Quran & Sunnah are to be understood & followed literally - as it appears and nothing more. The Sharia'h of the Four Ahl as Sunnah wal Jamaat are based on the literal Sunnah as it happened in the 7th century and not on logic or spirituality or AQL (reason).

            If you use logic & philosopy then muslims like ThandyMazaq, Fact Finders would ask you to start a new religion and to spare Islam of the scourge of logic & AQL.

            2)
            Originally posted by Spanky:
            Tanha, quran was not written, it was revealed. And author was none, but Allah(GOD).
            Spanky - You, too, are using logic to defend those verses. But remember the Four Sunni taqleeds and its Sharia'h are based on the literal sunnah & hadiths which are the defacto meanings of the Quran.

            When the quran & sunnah says -
            Stone to death the fags & apostates,
            Women are half of man,
            Face Mecca when saying namaz,
            etc, etc.

            you do not stop and contemplate using logic. You go with the literal interpretations.
            So, go with the literal translations of the verses re: Earth is Flat and mountains are pegs. Be consistent.

            3) I agree with Tanhaa that Allah is everywhere and if you insist that Allah can only be found facing the Sacred Mosque (Ka'ba) then that Sacred Mosque is none other than the heart. So - look inward and ye will find Allah.

            Comment


              #7
              Thap has helped with his knowledge.

              but why the Corner Room for this posting?? I see it a good candidate for the Religion forum... unless you're wary of the overzealous 'Sunni Moderation' of the forum.

              btw dude

              When the quran & sunnah says -
              Stone to death the fags & apostates,
              Women are half of man,
              Face Mecca when saying namaz
              no, Qur'an doesn't tell us to stone anyone, or say that women are 'half' of men.

              The topic of 'facing' The Sacred Mosque is a lengthy one.. but, again, it's easily explained from within the Qur'an itself.

              You may have a point in all this that it's only those who wish to cling to 7th century interpretations you're gonna stump with these. They're bound to come up with apologetic explanations.

              None are required if one is true to the Qur'an.

              [This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited November 27, 2001).]
              JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
                Thap has helped with his knowledge.
                So, dude/dudette,
                How about your opinions from the "Literal " perspectives of the Submitters? Here's your big chance to convert some Wahabis and I hope for sake of Humanity that you do.

                No sign of the Fact Finder & the Thandy Mazab of this Forum.

                Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
                btw dude
                no, Qur'an doesn't tell us to stone anyone, or say that women are 'half' of men.
                My good chap - I was referring to both Quran & Sunnah because for Ahl as Sunnah or the Sunnis-Wahabis the Quran & Sunnah goes together.

                Stoning to Death is a valid & enforceable Sharia'h for both the Sunnis and Shias. And, they have been stoning adulterers - mostly women and God knows - who else for the past 1400 years.

                And, actually the majority of rural, poor & illiterate women are not even half of man, they are nothing. And, thus the reason - Why Turkey recently legislated the end of Sharia'h laws for women in favour for secular laws.

                Pls click on: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wor...00/1673470.stm

                Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
                The topic of 'facing' The Sacred Mosque is a lengthy one.. but, again, it's easily explained from within the Qur'an itself.
                And, what is that?
                Allah lives at the Ka'aba in Mecca only.
                And, the Earth is flat field like a carpet and mountains are unmovable, firm pegs holding the carpet (earth) in place. Feel free to add some perspective to discussion rather than just redundant one-liners.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Face up

                  Tum Belly up hone walle ho


                  Hujjate bangal ka naam suna hai


                  You may argue only upto a point .

                  After that even American Constitutiion can be usurped by Stupid Silly American President & Aschcroft .We think Allah atleast deserves more respect than that.

                  NOT THAT YOU HAVE ANY REASON OR LOGIC OR KNOWLEDGE OF EITHER GEOGRAPHY ENGLISH LANGUAGE GEOLOGY THEOLOGY PHLSOPHY OR EVEN COMMON SENSE

                  YOU are inarticulate not able to stae your statement of case & not a shread of proof of whjatever you trying to prove.Getting some quote from anti islamic sword of truth indu.Org Or Hiondu Net Or other camaflouged web site is damn waste of BAND WITH ,So as they say drink mu shattap juice & Chilax before you make aFOOL of yourself & cut that dejected sorry figure of a loser!!!

                  ------------------


                  barque(bijli) yoon akadti hai apne karname pe ke
                  jaise phir naya hum aashiyaan bana nahi sakte

                  Comment


                    #10
                    The Quran contains a wealth of knowledge....for those with an open and pure mind. I was staggered when reading translations from a scientific veiwpoint. We have all read it and some understand parts of it, no one understands all of it but we must try, with a spiritual mind.

                    Pure logic cannot decipher the true meanings, faith and love for God and reverence have their place too.

                    Biology, Phychology, Sociology, Geology, Astronomy and many other sciences can go a long way to explaining some of the text, but the vast majority is to be read from a spiritual perspective with faith.

                    Besides, much of the text can only be explained scientifically with the benefit of hind-sight. Lateral thinking and leaps of faith are required to gain credible scientific knowledge of use for the future. I'm sure this is in progress

                    Salaam.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Some meanings are to be taken literally, in my opinion many are not.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Thap:
                        Some meanings are to be taken literally, in my opinion many are not.

                        Dear Thap,

                        So, who decides what is literal and what is not?

                        Can all muslims agree on this definition?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I suppose if you have doubts about the meaning of passages in the Quran you should ask someone who has studied it to a greater degree than yourself. Your parents, your maulvi, a scholar if one is available to you.

                          There are no quick-fix explanations...people spend a lifetime trying to reconcile themselves with just Alif Lam Meem. Look into the Quran's meanings with the capacity you have, don't pre-judge or take away half the meaning from a surat. If you are in doubt seek assistance in the manner described above...I am neither learned, a maulvi or a scholar. But at least I recognise my ignorance from here I can do something about it....Inshallah.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            (Al-Imran 3:7)He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

                            Sadly, people fail to even agree on the verses that are decisive.
                            ------------------------------------
                            Edited: 15:17 Hours, US Central Time

                            [This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited December 03, 2001).]
                            JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

                            Comment


                              #15
                              PakistaniAbroad,

                              You paint a picture of the Islamic world in fragments I would disagree here. The core beliefs are understood by all and adhered to by most. One cannot look into another’s heart but can easily misconstrue their intentions and practice. I suggest a moratorium on judging on another, let that fall into Gods domain.

                              Thap.
                              (You can quote me on that)

                              Comment

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