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Hadeeth literature and its authenticity

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    Hadeeth literature and its authenticity

    Assalam o Alaikum!

    Several brothers on this site have said or implied that tehy do not believe in ahadeeth. One brother has called it a historical rendition. Then, some have mentioned the time lag between the Prophetic period and the actual compilation by the scholars. One of them has questioned the authenticity of Abu Huraira (radhi Allaho anho).

    In order to clear doubts, I have done some research on the web and have come up with some authentic data for all to read. In summary,
    - the saha sitta are authentic
    - the companions were chosen by Allah and cannot be doubted in terms of reliability
    - the ahadeeth were written at the time, and memorised
    - the compilation by Bukhari, Muslim, et al, was with the strictest precaution.

    The links are:
    http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=2004
    http://65.193.50.117/index.php?ln=en...&QR=6981&dgn=2
    http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/h...sh/afor.htm#F2

    I believe this should suffice for the time being. If anyone has any doubts after reading these links, I believe we should have a sensible discussion.

    The rules should be that the minority view has to give the dalayil to prove why they do not agree with the majority view. And, there should be no personal attacks on anyone or any school of thought. Anybody not agreeiong to abide by these rules may open his/her own chain.

    Wassalam

    ------------------
    Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

    #2
    Thanks for posting these links.

    Comment


      #3
      The rules should be that the minority view has to give the dalayil to prove why they do not agree with the majority view
      It's not new, whenever radical ideas and factual discussions ensue, those willing to fight dogmas are in an extreme minority.

      Majority view has always been that of lemmings and blind followers, be it religion or politics.

      I read the link it doesn't impress me one bit. Same old story about 'scholars' taking utmost care and taking liberty with translating 'Dhikar' into 'Quran AND Sunna'..



      [This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited November 30, 2001).]
      JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

      Comment


        #4
        FF thanks for the links.

        PA Are there any hadeeths that you do believe? or youre not impressed with any?

        Comment


          #5
          May I give an example?
          In the Holy Quran there is no mention of a ban on Music, the word closest to being used is 'idle talk' people who condemn music often quote Hadith which do not quote the Prophet precisely.
          How can a man die better than facing fearful odds for the ashes of his fathers and the Temple of his Gods?

          Comment


            #6
            PA Are there any hadeeths that you do believe? or youre not impressed with any?
            Hmmm maybe the one in which the Prophet has told people NOT to write anything off of him except the Qur'an.

            Which is why writing and compiling Hadiths was prophibited till Omar Ibn Abdul Aziz removed the ban.

            .... Honorable intentions perhaps.. but a Grave mistake and disservice to the religion IMO.

            [This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited December 02, 2001).]
            JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
              Hmmm maybe the one in which the Prophet has told people NOT to write anything off of him except the Qur'an.
              ummm i am little confuse submitter bro.

              how di u know that prophet told ppl not to write anythgin off him except the quran. does it says in the quran that he told ppl not to write haddith....

              and also hwo to u manage to pray? i mena in quran it doensot give direct descrpiton on hwo to perform ritual aspects fo prayer. hwo do u pray bro?



              [This message has been edited by iqra_786 (edited December 02, 2001).]

              Comment


                #8
                thanks for posting that, it cleared up soem of my doubts

                Comment


                  #9
                  My 'momin' sis,

                  how di u know that prophet told ppl not to write anythgin off him except the quran.
                  Mr. laparwa inquired if there was any Hadith i thought was correct and my response was yes I can take (Muslim, Zuhd 72; Hanbel 3/12, 21, 39) as one correct Hadith. History also proves it right since all Caliphs maintained the ban on writing Hadiths. And later, anyone who didn't follow this rule was surely disobeying the messenger.

                  Sure, Omar Ibn Abdul Aziz did a good thing by putting an end to the despicable Muawian tradition of maligning the name of Ali from the pulpit, but still doesn't absolve him of the 'crime' of allowing people to 'compile' hadiths.

                  and also hwo to u manage to pray?
                  If I find details of bowing, prostrating etc in a Book, does that automatically make it a book of commandments? If someone observed the Prophet and his followers and wrote it down, does a collection of such observations gain the status of Sharia?

                  Revisit the Hadiths on Salat, Tell me in which ones the Prophet is reported as saying "Gather round people, this is how we will ofer Salat.. so many rakaat, such and such ayat here, then bow etc etc".

                  nope, that didn't happen.

                  And as for the collection process.. it's ENTIRELY treating human beings as Gods who can't utter truth, can't fabricate, can't forget and totally ignores assessing the content.

                  Considering the number of hadiths people claim to have looked at and verified in their lifetimes it amounts to something like fifteen minutes a hadith for verification.

                  I wouldn't base my religion based on such research. Maybe others are more trusting.
                  JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

                  Comment


                    #10
                    We err when we only believe things selectively, based on how they conform to our line of thinking.

                    The brother does not believe in 1000s of hadeeth, but believes in a solitary one that was abrogated, much to his dismay. If he is sincere in his pursuit for the truth he will find that writing of hadeeth was approved by Rasool Allah (sallallaho alaihe wasallam) and not by Omar (radhi Alaho anho).

                    In another thread, he has been asked whther he relies more on tradition, to which he has not responded, to the best of my knowledge.

                    ------------------
                    Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Fact Finder,

                      to me Hadith = Tradition.

                      These are books of history and have to be treated with the same skepticism that you would treat a history book.
                      JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

                      Comment


                        #12
                        bro PakistaniAbroad, hadeeth are of several types. One is answer to people's questions, 2nd is when Prophet PBUH told something to his companions without being asked of, 3rd is what Prophet PBUH did for a certain act, 4th is when Prophet PBUH didn't disapprove when something happened etc.

                        Hadith is not only ONE type where he would ask people to gather around and then teach.

                        BTW, how did you (PA) learn about salaat?

                        ------------------
                        May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

                        Comment


                          #13
                          salaam all
                          Is it not strange that in this day and age places such as SOAS, Sourbonne, Princeton, Oxford adn Cambridge to mention a few pay milloins of pounds for people to study hadeeth adn hadeeth science. Yet we muslims reject haddeth. Mainly due to ignorance on what a 'hadeeth is'. I ask my friend who rejects hadeeth to simply explain this. If the books of hadeeth are simply historical tradtions recirded by men who might have forgotten or erred in naaration the why does this not apply to the Qur'aan as well. You see the very people who wrote down the Qur'aan also wrote down the hadeeth. This is because the hadeeth is the explanation of the Qur'aan. Brother one cannot fully understand the Qur'aan without the appreciation of asbaa an nuzool. And the asbaa can only be found in hadeeth narration. I am going to make a revolutionary, adn somewhat controversial, statement. The very scepticism that you ask of us viz. hadeeth should be, and was by the sahaba who had the responsibility of compiling the Qur'aan, applied to the Qur'aan. All I can suggest is that you revisit historical archives and try ton ascertain at what point were muslims told that we should stop relying on hadeeth literature. I do hope that once you find that watershed in our history the very date should set your mind at rest as to the reasons for the doubt in hadeeth.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Brother Changez,

                            Majority of today's muslims follow 'Sahih' ahadiths.

                            Do you know the criteria for filing something under 'Sahih'?

                            Sahih - sound. Imām al-Shaficī states the following requirements for a hadīth, which is not Mutawātir, to be acceptable
                            • "each reporter should be trustworthy in his religion;
                            • he should be known to be truthtul in his narrating, to understand what he narrates, to know how a different expression can alter the meaning, and to report the wording of the hadīth verbatim, not only its meaning".


                            The stress is totally on the individual and not on the content or meaning.

                            Islamic history has had rulers who banned questioning the characters of associates of the Prophet. It had political reasons and also to try and unite the ummah.. however it had drastic effects when people fabricated lies and used these respectable sahaba's name.

                            All one needs to do is read these 'Sahih' collections of Hadith to find out how absurd some of them really are and continuously contradict each other.

                            You will read a Sahih hadith in which the Prophet said it was ok if innocent women and children were killed because afterall they had the same parents and grandparents as the ones on whom the attack was waged.

                            In the next hadith on the same page you'd read the exact opposite!

                            I was reading the Sahih Bukhari yesterday.. Honestly I still haven't found the complete way of praying and whatever we pray inside our prayers today.

                            And once again. If we do not find our current practices and customs and rules in the Qur'an, does that make our current ways wrong or the Qur'an wrong?
                            JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

                            Comment


                              #15
                              PA you have a peculiar habit of skipping specfic issues. I have stated that you only accept one hadeeth, and that because it conforms to your thinking. But you do not know that it was abrogated and Rasool Allah (sallallaho alaihe wasallam) authorised writing of hadeeth. You have ignored this.

                              In another place you have questioned the trustworthiness of abu Huraira (radhi allaho anho), a man who stuck to Rasool Allah's side all the time to be able to get everything first hand. A man so dedicated is now being questioned by the likes of you. I believe it is a shame.

                              Then you have mentioned about content. Are you not aware that ahadeeth were matched to ensure correctness and several ahadeeth with the same subject, but with different chain of narrators were found. These are the ahadeeth that are definitely in the saha sitta. Another point worth mentioning here is that the people in the chain were so unrelated that it was impossible for them to come up with the same text.

                              Read and you will understand. Do not block knowledge from getting in. Being selective in seeking knowledge can be disastrous.

                              ------------------
                              Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

                              [This message has been edited by FactFinder (edited December 03, 2001).]

                              Comment

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