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    >>Why would God give his creations free will, and at the same time, punish them for wrongdoings?*

    >>Why would God give his creations free will, and at the same time, punish them for wrongdoings?

    >>What would the purpose of the punishing one's creation that you've given choice to in the first place? If it were important enough to show them right from wrong, then why even give them the decision making abilities at all? If one decides to forfeit the ability to influence one's creations in order to give them free will, then why steer them at all through rewards/punishments?

    STOP HERE! if you want to deal with a simple, surface level discussion.

    ...BUT FOR THE SLIGHTLY MORE DARING:

    My thoughts:

    All things being equal, I think it would be more likely that "God" would do this, only if "God" were not a creator, but a creation of man patterned after the human experience/behaviors in order to better explain the unknown, (origins, purpose, death, etc.) So "God" is nothing more than a human creation that was given "divine" properties that transcended humans. What gave "God" it's "untouchable-ness" is the dogmatic way in which it's attributes are presented, i.e. it's "omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, and above judgment". To me, if a person can transmit these ideas effectively and get people to succumb to this type of propaganda, then whatever information that follows is irrelevant because you have already established that dogma-dependent mentality that forms the core of "belief". After that, add a pinch of "faith", "human suffering" (to justify the NEED for an explanation, hence "god/religion") and a dash of dependency, and you have yourself a person ready and willing to believe pretty much whatever. Now some people may say that this is just flipping the script by just stating that "God" is a creation of humans vs. the "classical" way the story goes, but upon investigation, we can observe throughout history where people take their own experiences and magnify them in an effort to create a model for thought and action. Perhaps this happened long ago and was needed then to accomplish some goal with the people in the collective "at that time" i don't know, (nor really care). But to think people today are immune to the ramifications of those happenings is to submit to the blindness induced by what today is pure "socialization". By giving the "god" story dogmatic attributes, the descendants of the creators of the "God" story are raised in a box to believe without question the ideas told to them. Their matriculation within a family group and and culture that nurtures these ideas is thus more reinforcement into the belief system they were born into. Add to these two, the fact that meeting a non-like ideology USUALLY reinforces one's own, and you have a firm believer, who "thinks" that his/her ideals are his/her own and that he/she has had the free choice to choose WHATEVER he/she wanted to believe and "just happened" to choose the system that they were raised in.


    But hey, this is only my opinion.


    #2
    yeah u r right, this only YOUR opinion....
    and Allah has given humans the right to think as they like....
    but do u think that u, or a few more like u, are the only people with brains and the rest of the billions of people who believe in the existence of GOD r stupids !!!!

    or do u believe that u need someone to make a small dol and billions and billions of years wont produce a SIMPLE NON-LIVING PLASTIC DOLL but will produce a life form (that includes intelligent life-form such as human beings)....

    or do u think that the whole of the solar system and the rest of the universe were created by a random phenomena....


    look around in the world and u will feel that SOMEONE must have created all these things....

    and that SOMEONE is ALLAH....

    and He, the Almighty Allah, says in His Book, the Holy Quran, (Surah 45: Al-Jathiya, verses 2-11)

    The revelation of the Book is from Allah the Exalted in power Full of Wisdom.
    Verily in the heavens and the earth are Signs for those who believe.
    And in the creation of yourselves and the fact that animals are scattered (through the earth) are Signs for those of assured Faith.
    And in the alternation of Night and Day and the fact that Allah sends down Sustenance from the sky and revives therewith the earth after its death and the change of the winds are Signs for those that are wise.
    Such are the Signs of Allah which We rehearse to thee in truth: then in what exposition will they believe after (rejecting) Allah and His Signs?
    Woe to each sinful Dealer in Falsehoods:
    He hears the Signs of Allah rehearsed to him yet is obstinate and lofty as if he had not heard them: then announce to him a Penalty Grievous!
    And when he learns something of Our Signs he takes them in jest: for such there will be a humiliating Penalty.
    In front of them is Hell: and of no profit to them is anything they may have earned nor any protectors they may have taken to themselves besides Allah: for them is a tremendous Penalty.
    This is (true) Guidance: and for those who reject the Signs of their Lord is a grievous Penalty of abomination.


    u can read further if u wish to enlighten ur brain....
    and this is not the only place where Allah speaks of this, but other places in Quran as well, cuz HE knows that HIS creaions (the mortal humans) will defy HIM....

    may ALLAH guide u to the tru path....

    ------------------
    Code:
            MUGHAL          ya mujhe afsar-e-shaahana banaaya hota
             _.+._          ya mera taaj gadaayana banaaya hota 
           (^\/^\/^)        
            \@*@*@/         nashaa-e-ishq ka gar zarf diya tha mujh ko
            {_____}         umar ka tang na paimaana banaaya hota
    Both Halal & Haram r evident but between them r doubtful things, most ppl have no knowledge about them. So whoever saves himself from suspicious things saves his religion & honor, & whoever indulges in suspicious things indulges in Haram.

    Comment


      #3
      Sometimes when you pray U can feel God in ur heart.

      Try. It is true.

      Guess what???
      Flowers are God's beautiful thoughts.

      Girl

      Comment


        #4
        God created Angels who do whatever they are told to do so and they will continue to do so. God created Humans and told that this creation will be free to do anything but will choose "reward" rather than "punishment". Can you imagine a world where everyone knows that he would get food whether he longs for it or not, s/he doesn't have to bother about the spouse as it will get reward anyway. This world would be a dead place as ther won't be any competition.

        Comment


          #5
          By giving the "god" story dogmatic attributes, the descendants of the creators of the "God" story are raised in a box to believe without question the ideas told to them

          I think you have hit the nail on the head here. People are afraid to think out of the box and even a slightest doubt puts people on a defensive e.g armughal's post...a very insecure post I must say.

          After that, add a pinch of "faith", "human suffering" (to justify the NEED for an explanation, hence "god/religion") and a dash of dependency, and you have yourself a person ready and willing to believe pretty much whatever

          I think we should be putting our efforts in finding the reason for this need instead of existence or non-existence of god. Why humans have this 'Need' of explanations and justifications to satisfy their thoughts/beliefs? I could be wrong but perhaps you are looking for a logical answer that would satisfy your thoughts/needs and you are finding it hard to buy what the concept of god has to offer.

          AvgAmerican girl thinks its a nice thought...I think it is more than just a thought...its a state of mind. A very secure place where you get possible answers for all unknowns.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by BoSS:
            ....
            I think you have hit the nail on the head here. People are afraid to think out of the box and even a slightest doubt puts people on a defensive e.g armughal's post...a very insecure post I must say.


            'insecure' from your perspective. 'secure'/'full of beleif' from his perspective.

            I think we should be putting our efforts in finding the reason for this need instead of existence or non-existence of god. Why humans have this 'Need' of explanations and justifications to satisfy their thoughts/beliefs? I could be wrong but perhaps you are looking for a logical answer that would satisfy your thoughts/needs and you are finding it hard to buy what the concept of god has to offer.

            miraculously, or because of lack of maturity, science itself has failed to explain / answer about nature, balance in world, universal balance, galaxies etc.

            if you pick 'science' as your religion, then unfortunately it is not mature enough, until then I suggest to beleive something before it is too late

            AvgAmerican girl thinks its a nice thought...I think it is more than just a thought...its a state of mind. A very secure place where you get possible answers for all unknowns.

            science which is trying its best to 'explain', 'answer' to almost anything it can.... unfortunately it cannot give you 'peace', 'peace of mind', 'love' etc.


            ------------------
            We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

            Comment


              #7
              But... G-d can.

              Science, Explain it to me!

              Comment


                #8
                Poster is asking only questions that G-d knows the answer to.

                Iknow, I have asked those questions before. Lose a 3 year 10 month 22 day child and you will know, or else you will stop asking.

                Today! I don' ask too many questions. Only if I fell the need to ask.

                Comment


                  #9
                  i-n-i,

                  Thanks for your post. I enjoyed reading it. Certainly plenty of food for thought.

                  The problem gets much more aggravated when the believers of an imaginary God start dominanting all aspects of society. How do you argue with someone who believs that his or her positions were revealed by an almighty God himself. The modern societies have handled this by separating divine religions from the functioning of the state. Islam is a unique religion that can not tolerate this. Hence a major battle lies ahead to turn Islamic societies toward secularization and progress.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    >>>The modern societies have handled this by separating divine religions from the functioning of the state. Islam is a unique religion that can not tolerate this. Hence a major battle lies ahead to turn Islamic societies toward secularization and progress.<<<

                    Will then, those societies remain 'Islamic'?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      That's an interesting question. Most of the members of the society may follow Islam individualy and through a democratic process organize the society influenced by Islamic values. However the country itself can not have Islam or any other religion for that matter as the official religion. ALL institutions of the state must be secular and function independent of any divine laws.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Logic User:
                        ALL institutions of the state must be secular and function independent of any divine laws.
                        So, what you are professing is to bring Islam to the state Christianity is in today. Thanks, but no thanks.

                        Islam has a system that is more viable than any secular system. The reason. Very simple. It is Divine with a capital 'D', while secularsystems are man-made and will eventually collapse. How long did it take for Communism to fade away into oblivion? I can guarantee you that Capitalism will go faster.

                        And, secular is just a farce. Every country that claims to be secular has its religious prejudices. India is the most populous. See what has happened there against the shudras and the minorities.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl:
                          Poster is asking only questions that G-d knows the answer to.

                          Iknow, I have asked those questions before. Lose a 3 year 10 month 22 day child and you will know, or else you will stop asking.

                          Today! I don' ask too many questions. Only if I fell the need to ask.
                          The basic question as I undersatnd it is that if God is in charge of destiny and punishment, why does He give us the free will.

                          The answers are quite clear.

                          There is no doubt that He is the Creator and is not a figment of our imagination. If te questioner doubts that then the question should have been different.

                          He gave us a free will to go on the right path (sirat al mustaqeem) or on the path that the devil wants us to follow. It is just like a child in school. He is given the will to study or not, and he knows that one will bring success, while the other failure.

                          He has put us in this world to test us. The trial is by using our will, or it is by His giving or not giving (or taking away) worldly posessions. If He gives us too much, we are accountable for them. If He does not give us or takes something away, He sees how we react. I find that I get closer to Him when I lose a posession. I am then asking Him for recompense, but never do I question why He took it away. Simply because of the power of "Inna lillahe inna wa inna ilaihe rajeoon". Everything belongs to Him and He has the right to take it away.

                          Anybody who questions His Rights or Powers will only get further and further away from Him as these are things for belief not for logic.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            jazakallah guys, you have tried to explain all this in such a good way i cant add any thing else, but you should realize that you cant get many ppl to submit to allah because most of them dont realize the truth. any way avg american girl, i wonder why do u use 'G-d' instead of 'God'? any specific reason for it???

                            Comment


                              #15
                              i wonder why do u use 'G-d' instead of 'God'? any specific reason for it???
                              it may have something to do with a commandment of "Thou shalt not take God's name in vain".. but I could be wrong.
                              JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

                              Comment

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