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    "he who changes his deen, kill him"

    It is claimed in another thread.
    ... whereas the Prophet (saw) said "he who cahnges his deen, kill him"....
    I am sure the guppie was referring to 'Wajib-ul-Qatal' who is a 'murtad', a wide spread belief among many Msulims.

    Even though the guppie claimed it to be a saying of Prophet. Lets start with Quran! And then we will move towards Hadiths!

    What is the proof(s) from Quran, that any Muslim who backs out of his 'claim' or 'belief' should be executed?

    ... Bring your convincing proof ...[21:24]

    Note: If there is another thread with this topic being the sole one. Please let me know & I will carry on with the discussions there!
    I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
    - Robert McCloskey

    #2
    The hadith is valid i don't understand what you want to achive by saying if it not in quran than its not valid or something. Valid Hadith is evidence that muslims accept just as they accept ayah of quran.

    Comment


      #3
      Then again..

      If it's NOT in the Quran, shouldn't the discussion end there?

      Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt. (6:114)
      And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds. (10:37)

      ------------------
      These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?(45:6)
      JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

      Comment


        #4
        The Sunni scholars have made the Hadiths/Sunnah into the meanings of the quran.

        Hadiths = Quran
        Hadiths > Quran (> = Greater)

        The Ahl as Sunnah was Jamaah is based on Sunnah & Hadiths.

        If Hadiths = Corruption
        Sunni Islam = Mother of Corruption.

        Comment


          #5
          [quote]Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
          [b]Then again..

          If it's NOT in the Quran, shouldn't the discussion end there?

          And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds. (10:37)
          buddy i dont know if the hadith stated above is sahih or not, but if it is, then there is no way we can deny it. u ask about if it is not in quran then u cant accept it..then where does it say to pray 5 times in quran? (believe me, i have searched it...only closest thing i got was pray during the corners of the day) then how do u pray? because it is not stated in quran also, then how do u perform hajj? the whole process is not stated in quran too...so whats your point? i am not the kind of the muslim who make mohammed SAW above ALlah (nauzubillah) and i consider him only human not like some people who simply belive him as a non human entity and things like that...but still, i know that with out him, islam is not completely explained and all the laws and rules of islam would not have been fullly explained if it was not the hadiths that would explain it all to us in easy wording...so drop that notion that if it is not in quran this is crap...the shcolars of hadith worked all their life cataloging hadiths and their work can not just be considered crap by ppl like us who have no knowledge whatsoever of islam and just say what comes first to our pea sized brians......


          [This message has been edited by ThandyMazaq (edited November 01, 2001).]

          Comment


            #6
            Just my 2 cents :
            Words in the Quraan are 2 be taken as the 100% truth, no denying that but on the other hand, hadith is something one needs to be more careful. If hadith is in Bukhari or Muslim then its pretty much accurate any other sources you have to see whether the scholars deem it to be authentic.

            Comment


              #7
              ppl like us who have no knowledge whatsoever of islam and just say what comes first to our pea sized brians
              First of all, calm down. We can't carry out a rational discussion when enraged. I was 'you' once. I realized it was my own duty to understand my religion.

              The moment we turn to other sources than Allah, we are denying his supremacy and authority. Without going into the origin and timeframes and circumstances in which Hadiths were compiled, we need to see if the Quran instructs us to take 'other than Quran' as a source for our commandments.

              I'd be interested in seeing a verse from Quran that tells us to seek out other sources for commandments which Allah naoozobillah "omitted" or naoozobillah "forgot" to mention in the Quran.

              Do not let the intrepretation of your beliefs on someone 'more muslim' than you. The guidance has come down on ALL OF US as a people. It's incumbent therefore on all of us to individually strive to understand it rather than leave it to 'scholars' to define our religion for us.

              --------------------------------------------
              These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?(45:6)

              [This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited November 01, 2001).]
              JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
                .... I was 'you' once. I realized it was my own duty to understand my religion.
                So have you understood it!
                And, what is it - the Submitters?

                Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
                The moment we turn to other sources than Allah, we are denying his supremacy and authority.....
                Did not Allah turn to Muhammed SWS to deliver His message?

                Did Muhammed SWS not depend upon the sahabas to retain the quran in their memories?

                Did not the Caliphs later depend upon these memorized qurans for compilation to text?

                Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
                ... we need to see if the Quran instructs us to take 'other than Quran' as a source for our commandments. [/B]
                The Quran is subject to interpretations. The Sunnis believe in their Hadiths as that source;
                the shias believe in their Imams.

                Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: I'd be interested in seeing a verse from Quran that tells us to seek out other sources for commandments which Allah naoozobillah "omitted" or naoozobillah "forgot" to mention in the Quran.
                There are plenty of verses that shias can quote re: their Imams.

                Equally, the sunnis can do the same.

                Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
                Do not let the intrepretation of your beliefs on someone 'more muslim' than you. The guidance has come down on ALL OF US as a people. It's incumbent therefore on all of us to individually strive to understand it rather than leave it to 'scholars' to define our religion for us.
                I shall let you explain this part.

                Comment


                  #9
                  So have you understood it! And, what is it - the Submitters?
                  I'm still learning.. and aren't all muslims 'submitters'?

                  Did not Allah turn to Muhammed SWS to deliver His message?

                  Did Muhammed SWS not depend upon the sahabas to retain the quran in their memories?

                  Did not the Caliphs later depend upon these memorized qurans for compilation to text?
                  I said SOURCES. Messengers aren't new to this religion. The source remains a supreme being we know as Allah. Neither messenger (pbuh), nor the sahabas or the Caliphs are allowed to issue 'commandments'. They are to convey the message of God.

                  Nothing is (incumbent) on the Apostle but to deliver (the message), and Allah knows what you do openly and what you hide(5:99)

                  There are plenty of verses that shias can quote re: their Imams. Equally, the sunnis can do the same.
                  Good. Can I see one please. I said I'm still learning.

                  ------------------
                  These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?(45:6)
                  JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

                  Comment


                    #10
                    PakistaniAbroad,

                    Good! Please stick around. We need people like you in the Religion forum!

                    All: Lets stay on the topic. Please! Anyone with a Quranic verse about the 'Murtad'? ... before we move to Ahadiths.

                    I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
                    - Robert McCloskey

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by ahmadjee:
                      What is the proof(s) from Quran, that any Muslim who backs out of his 'claim' or 'belief' should be executed?

                      Ibrahim says; Salaams to all

                      Hey ahmadjee, you seem ever so bent on being rebellious, it is when such a person becomes “harmful” to the society, the law and command to ‘execute” applies. In other words one can convert to any religion or even become an atheist if that is what they have chosen to become, ( In Islam there is no compulsion in religion) but when one starts trying to harm others by spreading misinformation or by misrepresentation the facts willfully or by fabrication with intent to destroy that faith, then the law against “false prophets” has to be applied . ( hence one can be sentenced to death for such a crime)

                      This is actually simple to understand, you see, some bacteria’s live within your body and are not harmful to you, so one will not be bothered about it but when they start harming your body , you will have to kill them or else they destroy you.

                      Hence in Islam the law prescribed by Allah (swt) is

                      6: 151 Say: "Come I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from": join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents: kill not your children on a plea of want; We provide sustenance for you and for them; come not nigh to shameful deeds whether open or secret; take not life which Allah hath made sacred except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you that ye may learn wisdom.

                      Ibrahim says: It is not only that human life is sacred, but all life is sacred. Even in killing animals for food, a dedicatory formula "in the name of Allah" has to be employed, to make it lawful. Similarly in taking life it must be by way of “Justice” and not on account of preferences, injustice or malice.

                      Thus in the case of those who becomes apostates, the law applicable to them are

                      9: 65 If thou dost question them they declare (with emphasis): "we were only talking idly and in play." Say: "was it at Allah and His signs and His apostle that ye were mocking?"

                      9: 66 Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you We will punish others amongst you for that they are in sin.


                      Ibrahim says; hence Muslims are left to judge the situation and the circumstances and apply the law of justice, where applicable. As much as pardon should be available to those who may repent , punishment would also be due to those who may deserve it.


                      So you may wonder how does one identify these people?

                      47: 25 Those who turn back as apostates after Guidance was clearly shown to them the Evil One has instigated them and buoyed them up with false hopes.

                      26 This because they said to those who hate what Allah has revealed "We will obey you in part of (this) matter"; but Allah knows their (inner) secrets.

                      27 But how (will it be) when the angels take their souls at death and smite their faces and their backs?


                      28 This because they followed that which called forth the Wrath of Allah and they hated Allah's good pleasure; so He made their deeds of no effect.


                      29 Or do those in whose hearts is a disease think that Allah will not bring to light all their rancor?

                      30 Had We so willed We could have shown them up to thee and thou shouldst have known them by their marks: but surely thou wilt know them by the tone of their speech! And Allah knows All that ye do.


                      Ibrahim says: Hence Muslims will be able to identify them by their speech and behavior.

                      So you may ask where does it tell us that you should kill them?

                      Ibrahim says; This is applied on the basis of


                      3: 86 How shall Allah guide those who reject faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Apostle was true and that clear signs had come unto them? But Allah guides not a people unjust.

                      87 Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of Allah of His angels and of all mankind.

                      88 In that will they dwell; nor will their penalty be lightened nor respite be their (lot).

                      89 Except for those that repent (even) after that and make amends: for verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.

                      Now the hadd (punishment) for those who persist and try to defame and destroy Islam in their hate or rebellion is similar to that of a traitor who betrays his own country

                      5: 33 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution or crucifixion of the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.

                      This is further strengthen by the following hadiths,

                      Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 9.17 Narrated by Abdullah


                      Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

                      Ibrahim says; thus this would be the logical solution for those who will harm the body, in short kill or remove the cancer or be killed by it.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Thank you Ibrahim for pointing out the penalties for Apostasy in the Quran is Death!

                        Sure, it doesn't spell it out in gruesome details in the Quran, that is why you have the Sunnah & Hadiths. And, this is why I said previously:

                        The Sunni scholars have made the Hadiths/Sunnah into the meanings of the quran.
                        Hadiths = Quran
                        Hadiths > Quran (> = Greater)

                        The Ahl as Sunnah was Jamaah is based on Sunnah & Hadiths.

                        There is no escaping it! Welcome to 'your Islam' based on hadiths - O' Followers of Sunnah! And, Thandy thinks - he is following a deen of Allah and not man (hehehee).

                        And, by the way:

                        If Hadiths = Corruption
                        Sunni Islam = Mother of Corruption.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by faceup:
                          There is no escaping it! Welcome to 'your Islam' based on hadiths - O' Followers of Sunnah! And, Thandy thinks - he is following a deen of Allah and not man (hehehee). Sunni Islam = Mother of Corruption.

                          Ibrahim says; Faceup!! Got drunk or using the wrong glasses

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by faceup:
                            Sure, it doesn't spell it out in gruesome details in the Quran,
                            Ibrahim says; huh? anyway the message is consistant even in the Bible, so read it when you are sober.

                            False Prophets or False teachers


                            Deuteronomy 13

                            1. If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder,

                            2. and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them,"

                            3. you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.

                            4. It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.

                            5. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.


                            Duetteronomy 18:20

                            20. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."


                            Isaiah 44:24-25

                            24. "This is what the LORD says-- your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

                            24. who foils the signs of false prophets and makes fools of diviners, who overthrows the learning of the wise and turns it into nonsense,


                            Jeremiah 50: 35-36

                            35. "A sword against the Babylonians!" declares the LORD-- "against those who live in Babylon and against her officials and wise men!

                            35. A sword against her false prophets! They will become fools. A sword against her warriors! They will be filled with terror.

                            Matthew 7:15-20

                            15. "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

                            16. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

                            17. Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

                            18. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

                            19. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

                            20. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.


                            2 Peter 2

                            1. But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them— bringing swift destruction on themselves.

                            Revelation 19:20


                            20. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Thus in the case of those who becomes apostates, the law applicable to them are

                              9: 65 If thou dost question them they declare (with emphasis): "we were only talking idly and in play." Say: "was it at Allah and His signs and His apostle that ye were mocking?"

                              9: 66 Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you We will punish others amongst you for that they are in sin.

                              Ibrahim says; hence Muslims are left to judge the situation and the circumstances and apply the law of justice, where applicable. As much as pardon should be available to those who may repent , punishment would also be due to those who may deserve it.
                              Muslims are left to judge? How? Where did you get that interpretation?

                              If I understand it right you are equating yourself to Muslims and then to God?

                              Allah says "WE pardon some of you WE will punish others amongst you"

                              Do you consider yourself part of "WE", which Allah has used for Himself? Are you trying to be His 'shareeq'?

                              Do you know what they did to the person who said 'Anal Huq'? (Though wrongfully)

                              Or is it that you consider Allah to be dependent on YOU to carry out his punishments? And take the law in YOUR hands?

                              I think you haven't read the Life of AnHazoor (saw) and his dealing with the hypocrites. Those who accused innocent Hazrat Aisha (ra) & used to bad mouth about AnHazoor (saw) during his life time ... though yet called themselves Muslims.

                              Are you under the impression that AnHazoor (saw) didn't know about them? Or did Allah not know what was in their hearts?

                              Everyone knew who they were! Those hypocrites were the worst to cause trouble, misinform & fabricate lie aganist AnHazoor (saw) & his beloved family.

                              Though knowing their hypocracy, knowing their evil deeds, we see that AnHazoor (saw) refrained from executing them. He didn't even punish them. Let alone, he went to their graves after they died to pray for their forgiveness!

                              Ibrahim, do you think, that AnHazoor (saw) didn't know of the Quranic verses that you have mentioned?

                              OR is that you think you understand these verses better than him (NaozoBillah) and so are willing to go out and hunt down the hypocrites & execute them? Are you claiming that you know what's in someone else's heart?
                              I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
                              - Robert McCloskey

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