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    Harut and Marut, Gog and Magog, Yajuj and Majuj

    Those nations, angels, creatures of Allah have many names.

    The reason for this post is to figure out the 2 names of the thread stated above signify Angels? Creatures? or nations?

    Anyone have any literature on this?



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    Jitna Diya Sarkar Nay Mujko, Itni Meri Auqat Nahi, Yeh Saab Tumhara Karam Hai Aqa, Mujh Mein Aisi Koi Baat Nahin.


    Love happens once . . .
    Rabul MashriqaiN wal MaghribaiN

    #2
    Hello,

    This is not my thinking but I have read that some feel Gog and Magog, is the Nation Russia??? And then the same people call the New Babylon the USA. (I think something from the revelations in the bible that I am bereft of understanding.)

    The others Harut and Marut, also Yjuj and Majuj are unfamiliar to me...perhaps same words different language?

    Catholic Encylopedia says this:
    In the first passage of Ezechiel we read the command of Yahweh to the prophet: "Son of man, set thy face against Gog the land of Magog...and prophesy of him...Behold, I come against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Mosoch and Thubal" (38:2-3).

    Which in my thinking makes Gog a ruler and Magog the country. What the chief prince of Mosoch and Thubal is I don't know, maybe evil beings? Haven't really a clue.

    Comment


      #3
      Harut and Marut were two ANGES sent down to Babylon, who taught the people magic....
      they have been mentioned in a verse in the Holy Quran....

      Gog and Magog (aka Yajuj and Majuj, same names/one in english, one arabic) r a nation, that is not known of....
      they have been trapped behind a wall enforced with lead by Zulqarnain and will be released by Allah when the end of the world approaches....
      they r basically an evil nation believed by many to be in the north asia, but that is not certain....
      u can read the explanation of the Holy Quran (Surah AL-Kahaf, The Cave) for more information....
      Both Halal & Haram r evident but between them r doubtful things, most ppl have no knowledge about them. So whoever saves himself from suspicious things saves his religion & honor, & whoever indulges in suspicious things indulges in Haram.

      Comment


        #4
        Elaborate on Harut and Marut please.

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        Jitna Diya Sarkar Nay Mujko, Itni Meri Auqat Nahi, Yeh Saab Tumhara Karam Hai Aqa, Mujh Mein Aisi Koi Baat Nahin.


        Love happens once . . .
        Rabul MashriqaiN wal MaghribaiN

        Comment


          #5
          One scholar whose books I read believed Gog and Magog to be a race of people from Central Asia, rather than a race trapped in a place that is sealed off from the world. He felt that the wall separating Gog and Magog from the world was a metaphor for them not having the political strength to impact the world.
          Muslims are so good at dividing that they can divide the atom. If you see two Muslims, probably they belong to 3 parties.
          Al-Ghazali

          Comment


            #6
            MAD: I just checked out the story from the Quran about Gog and Magog. It was a real wall that seperated the nations made out of iron and other elements.

            Harut and Marut on the other hand to my knowledge did not teach magic as someone stated here but they questioned Allah saying they know not evil but only good and would like to experience having a Nafs (choice, desire). The angels said to Allah that they will not deviate from his path because of this Nafs. Allah granted them this and they appeared and disappeared onto earth by reading Ism-E-Azm (meaning glory in Allah's name that can be found in many surahs of the Quran). Sooner or later they were found to be deviants, they found out how hard it is to stay on the right path and faced the consequences.

            To further this discussion, these Angels have been mentioned in the Quran. If anyone can find it, kindly post it.

            ------------------
            Jitna Diya Sarkar Nay Mujko, Itni Meri Auqat Nahi, Yeh Saab Tumhara Karam Hai Aqa, Mujh Mein Aisi Koi Baat Nahin.


            Love happens once . . .
            Rabul MashriqaiN wal MaghribaiN

            Comment


              #7
              Here is proof MAD, I just got this out of a book.

              STORY OF GOG AND MAGOG

              Thul Qarnain, the Great Adventurer, travelled eastwards with his army, reforming or fighting the unbelievers. He always won the battles. His travels brought him to a place which he thought was teh end of civilization. He discovered that the people did not have homes or shelter nor trees to shade them. They were an ignorant lot. He stayed among them for a while, taught them good conduct and how to provide for themselves. He also taught them about Allah and established good government among them. Then he travelled northward.
              Thul Qarnain reached a country situated between two mountain ranges. This was a well developed place. The citizens asked him to raise a wall between them and their neighbours who raided and robbed them and killed their people. The raiders were the Gog and the Magog tribes. The citizens offered to pay Thul Qarnain for his help and guidance but he replied: What Allah has given me in more than enough. I only need your labour and I will bild a barrier between you and the invaders. They were only too happy to offer their labour.

              Using a large quantity of iron, he filled the space between the two mountains. Then he raised a huge wall and poured metal over it. The invaders could not scale the smooth surface or break through this wall, and the inhabitants felt safe. On the completion of the wall Thul Qarnain offered prayer of thanks to Allah. This is a mercy from my Lord, and wehn the time of my Lord's promise shal come, He will level it to dust, for the promises of my Lord are true.
              (Quran 18:83-98)

              ------------------
              Jitna Diya Sarkar Nay Mujko, Itni Meri Auqat Nahi, Yeh Saab Tumhara Karam Hai Aqa, Mujh Mein Aisi Koi Baat Nahin.


              Love happens once . . .
              Rabul MashriqaiN wal MaghribaiN

              Comment


                #8
                This is what I found on Gog and Magog:

                They (two tribes or peoples) will appear at the time of Jesus son of Mary, after the Dajjaal. Allah will destroy them all in one night, in response to the supplication of Jesus.

                Abu Hurayrah reported that the Prophet (S) said, "Every day, Gog and Magog are trying to dig a way out through the barrier. When they begin to see sunlight through it, the one who is in charge of them says, 'Go back; you can carry on digging tomorrow,' and when they come back, the barrier is stronger than it was before. This will continue until their time comes and Allah wishes to send them forth. They will dig until they begin to see sunlight, then the one who is in charge of them will say, 'Go back; you can carry on digging tomorrow, in shaa'Allah.' In this case he will make an exception by saying in shaa'Allah, thus relating the matter to the Will of Allah. They will return on the following day, and find the hole as they left it. They will carry on digging and come out against the people. They will drink all the water, and find the hole as they left it, and the people will entrench themselves in their fortresses. Gog and Magog will fire their arrows into the sky, and they will fall back to earth with something like blood on them. Gog and Magog will say, 'We have defeated the people of earth, and overcome the people of heaven.' Then Allah will send a kind of worm in the napes of their nacks, and they will be killed by it...'By Him a in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, the beasts of the earth will become fat.'" [Tirmidhee, Abwaab al-Tafseer: Surat al-Kahf (Hadith 5160), 8/597-99; Ibn Maajah, Kitaab al-Fitan, (Hadith 4080), 2/1364. Ahmad, Musnad, 2/510, 511.]

                Gog and Magog are two groups of Turks, descended from Yaafith (Japheth), the father of the Turks, one of the sons of Noah. At the time of Abraham (AS), there was a king called Dhoo'l-Qarnayn. He performed Tawaaf around the Ka'bah with Abraham (AS) when he first built it; he believed and followed him. Dhoo'l-Qarnayn was a good man and a great king; Allah gave him great power and he ruled the east and west. He held sway over all kings and countries, and travelled far and wide in both east and west. He travelled eastwards until he reached a pass between two mountains, through which people were coming out. They did not understand anything, because they were so isolated; they were Gog and Magog. They were spreading corruption through the earth, and harming the people, so the people sought help from Dhoo'l-Qarnayn. They asked him to build a barrier between them and Gog and Magog. He asked them to him to build it, so together they built a barrier by mixing iron, copper and tar.

                Thus Dhoo'l-Qarnayn restrained Gog and Magog behind the barrier. They tried to penetrate the barrier, or to climb over it, but to no avail. They could not succeed because the barrier is so huge and smooth. They began to dig, and they have been digging for centuries; they will continue to do so until the time when Allah decrees that they come out. At that time the barrier will collapse, and Gog and Magog will rush out in all directions, spreading corruption, uprooting plants, killing people. When Jesus (AS) prays against them, Allah will send a kind of work in the napes of their necks, and they will be killed by it.

                Just ask if you want the link!



                [This message has been edited by Munni (edited November 05, 2001).]
                "O man! What has seduced thee from thy Lord Most Beneficent?" - Quran 82:6

                Sponsor and choose an orphan at alyateem dot com

                Comment


                  #9
                  From the Qur'an (3 separate translations):

                  2.102

                  YUSUFALI: They followed what the evil ones gave out (falsely) against the power of Solomon: the blasphemers Were, not Solomon, but the evil ones, teaching men Magic, and such things as came down at babylon to the angels Harut and Marut. But neither of these taught anyone (Such things) without saying: "We are only for trial; so do not blaspheme." They learned from them the means to sow discord between man and wife. But they could not thus harm anyone except by Allah's permission. And they learned what harmed them, not what profited them. And they knew that the buyers of (magic) would have no share in the happiness of the Hereafter. And vile was the price for which they did sell their souls, if they but knew!

                  PICKTHAL: And follow that which the devils falsely related against the kingdom of Solomon. Solomon disbelieved not; but the devils disbelieved, teaching mankind magic and that which was revealed to the two angels in Babel, Harut and Marut. Nor did they (the two angels) teach it to anyone till they had said: We are only a temptation, therefore disbelieve not (in the guidance of Allah). And from these two (angles) people learn that by which they cause division between man and wife; but they injure thereby no-one save by Allah's leave. And they learn that which harmeth them and profiteth them not. And surely they do know that he who trafficketh therein will have no (happy) portion in the Hereafter; and surely evil is the price for which they sell their souls, if they but knew.

                  SHAKIR: And they followed what the Shaitans chanted of sorcery in the reign of Sulaiman, and Sulaiman was not an unbeliever, but the Shaitans disbelieved, they taught men sorcery and that was sent down to the two angels at Babel, Harut and Marut, yet these two taught no man until they had said, "Surely we are only a trial, therefore do not be a disbeliever." Even then men learned from these two, magic by which they might cause a separation between a man and his wife; and they cannot hurt with it any one except with Allah's permission, and they learned what harmed them and did not profit them, and certainly they know that he who bought it should have no share of good in the hereafter and evil was the price for which they sold their souls, had they but known this.



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                  Learn to love yourself, then learn to love one-another
                  "O man! What has seduced thee from thy Lord Most Beneficent?" - Quran 82:6

                  Sponsor and choose an orphan at alyateem dot com

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Coconut, the argument I read earlier (it was the description of the Gog and Magog in the Yusuf Ali translation of the Quran) can be found here.
                    -----------------------------------------

                    "We now come to the Iron Gate which corresponds exactly to the Quranic description, and has the best claim to be connected with Alexander's story. It is near another Derbend in Central Asia, Hissar District, about 150 miles southeast of Bukhara. A very narrow defile, with overhanging rocks, occurs on the main route between Turkestan and India: latitude 38 degrees N; longitude 67 degrees E. It is now called in Turkish-Buzghol Khana (Goat- house), but was formerly known as the Iron Gate (Arabic, Bab al Hadid; Persian, Dar-i-ahani; Chinese Tie-men-kuan). There is no iron gate there now, but there was one in the seventh century, when the Chinese traveler Hiouen Tsiang saw it on his journey to India. He saw two folding gates cased with iron hung with bells. Nearby is a lake named Iskandar Kul, connecting the locality with Alexander the Great.

                    We know from history that Alexander, after his conquest of Persia and before his journey to India, visited Sogdiana (Bukhara) and Maracanda (Samarqand). We also know from al Maqdis, the Arab traveler and geographer; who wrote about A.H. 375 (A.C. 985-986) that the Abbasi Caliph al Wathiq (842-846 A.C.) sent out mission to Central Asia to report on this Iron Gate. They found the defile 150 yards wide: on two jambs, made with bricks of iron welded together with molten lead, were hung two huge gates, which were kept closed. Nothing could correspond more exactly with the description in (Noble Verses) 18:95-96.

                    If, then, the Barrier in 18:95-98 refers to the Iron Gate near Bukhara, we are able to proceed to a consideration of the Gog-Magog people with some confidence. They were the Mongol tribes on the other side of the Barrier, while the industrious men who did not understand Dhu al Qarnayn's language were the Turks, with their agglutinative language, so different from the languages then spoken in Western Asia.

                    The Barrier served its purpose for the time being. But the warning that the time must come when it must crumble to dust has also come true. It has crumbled to dust. Long since, the Mongols pushed through on their westward journey, pushing the Turks before them, and the Turks became a European Power and still have a footing in Europe. We need not bother about the legends of the Gog and Magog people. They were reputed to be giants, and two tiny hills in flat Cambridgeshire are derisively called the Gog-Magog hills! Similarly the statues of Gog and Magog in the Guildhall in London, which M.M.A. takes so seriously, only remind us how legends are apt to grow and get transported to strange places.

                    In the Alexander legends of medieval Europe, Gog and Magog are said to have come with 400,000 men to the help of Porus whom Alexander defeated, and to have fled after that defeat. They fled to the mountains, and Alexander built a wall with brass gates to prevent their irruptions. See Paul Meyer, Alexandre le Grand dans la literature francaise du Moyen Age: Paris, 1886; Vol. 2, pp. 386-389.

                    Personally, I have not the least doubt that Dhu al Qarnayn is meant to be Alexander the Great, the historic Alexander, and not the legendary Alexander, of whom more presently. My first appointment after graduation was that of Lecturer in Greek history. I have studied the details of Alexander's extraordinary personality in Greek historians as well as in modern writers, and have since visited most of the localities connected with his brief but brilliant career.

                    Few readers of Quranic literature have had the same privilege of studying the details of his career. It is one of the wonders of the Quran, that, spoken through an Ummi's (illiterate) mouth, it should contain so many incidental details which are absolutely true. The more our knowledge increases, the more we feel this. There are little touches which need not have been mentioned. They come in incidentally like the incidental remarks of a person full of knowledge, who does not intend to put forward these points but whose fullness of knowledge brings them in inevitably.

                    One such point occurs in the mention of Alexander's westward journey (18:86). He saw the sun set in a piece of murky water which is described as "Spring". Most commentators have understood the "Spring" to be the sea, and the "murky water" to be its dark-blue water. Nizami, in his Romance of Alexander, takes Alexander right west along North Africa to Andalusia and the Atlantic Ocean. There is no historic proof that Alexander ever reached the Atlantic. But he was of course familiar with the deep-blue waters of the Mediterranean.

                    The Mediterranean interpretation may pass if we had not a closer explanation. Alexander's first exploits were when he was a mere boy, in the reign of his father Phillip. The region of Illyricum was due west of Macedonia, and Macedonia's first expansion was in that direction. The town of Lychnis was annexed to Macedonia and thus the western frontier of Macedonia was secured. The northern frontier towards the Danube had already been secured, and the lesson he subsequently gave no Thebes secured him against attack from the Greek States to the south, and prepared the way for his great march east against the Persian Empire.

                    To the west of the town of Lychnis is a lake170 square miles in area, fed by underground springs that issue through limestone rocks and give out murky water. Both town and lake are now called Ochrida, about 50 miles west of Monastir. The water is so dark that the river which forms the outlet of the lake to the north is called the Black Drin. Looking at the sunset from the town, the observer would see the sun set a pool of murky water (18:86). It was a question before the boy Alexander -- the dreamy, impulsive, fearless rider -- whether he would put the barbarous Illyricans to the sword or show them mercy. He showed true discrimination and statesmanship. He punished the guilty but showed kindness to the innocent, and thus consolidated his power in the west. This I construe to be the meaning of (Noble Verses) 18:86-87; otherwise these verses do not seem to be perfectly clear.

                    Another point may be noted. The three episodes mentioned are the journey to the west, the journey to the east, and the journey to the Iron Gate. The journey to the west I have just explained. The journey to the east was to the Persian Empire. Here he found a people who lived in the open and wore little clothing. This might apply to people who live in an inland place in the latitude of Persepolis or Multani. He left them alone as they were (18:91).

                    He was not warring against populations: he was warring against the proud but effete Persian Empire. He left them as they were, with their local institutions, and under their local chiefs. In feeling, he treated them as his own, not as aliens. In some things, he himself adopted their ways. His followers misunderstood him. But Allah understood, for He approves of all things that lead to Unity among mankind.

                    The direction of the third journey is not mentioned. The Commentators suggest the north, but they might with better reason have suggested the south, as Alexander visited Egypt. But the visit to the Iron Gate was to the East -- a continuation of his journey east. That is why the direction is not mentioned again. Here his mission was different. He had to protect, against turbulent and restless invaders. He helped them to protect themselves, but warned them that all human precautions, though good and necessary, are vain without Allah's help.

                    Each of the episodes mentioned is historical. But the pomp and glitter of military conquest are not mentioned. On the contrary, spiritual motives are revealed and commended. We need not know or learn any history or geography or science or psychology or ethics to understand them. But the more real knowledge we have, the more completely shall we understand them and the lessons to be drawn from them. The earthly journeys are treated as mere symbols to show us the evolution of a great and noble soul which achieved so much in a short earthly life.

                    His career was so extraordinary that it impressed his contemporaries as a world event. It undoubtedly was on of the greatest world events in history. Legends began to grow up round his name. In many cases the legends overlaid the history. Today the world is thrilled by Sir Ayrel Stein's identification of Aornos, a very small geographical detail in a great career full of lessons, in political, ethical, and religious wisdom.

                    But the generations immediately following Alexander's period wrote the transmitted all sorts of wonderful legends that passed current in East and West. The philosopher Kallisthenes had been with Alexander in Asia. Under his name was produced a Greek book in Alexandria some time before the second century of the Christian era. It was translated into Latin in the third century. Translations were subsequently made into most of the European languages. In Chaucer's time (1340-1400) these Alexander legends were known to every "weight that hath discrecion" (The Monk in Canterbury Tales).

                    Alexandria was a focus of Christian and Jewish learning for some centuries. The Christians also made Alexander a saint. The Jews carried the Alexander cycle into the East. Our Persian poet Jami (A.H. 535-599, A.C. 1141-1203) worked it up into his epic the Iskandar-nama. He is careful to show the historical or semi-historical and the ethical parts separately. The one relates to action or exploits (Iqbal) and the other to wisdom (Khirad). He had the advantage of the Quranic story before him. That story mentions three historical episodes incidentally, but draws our attention to matters of the weightiest spiritual significance, and that is the chief thing to note in the story."

                    -----------------------------------------

                    If the sealing off of the Gog and Magog by a wall is a real event and the wall separates them from the world to date, why has no aerial photographic evidence of the existence of an isolated civilisation been found?

                    We live in a day and age where the entire surface of the world has been subjected to aerial and satellite photography in search of resources to exploit; no such wall has been found. The scale of the wall (stretching between 2 mountains) would also imply that it is hardly difficult to find; again no wall has been shown to exist.

                    Yusuf Ali's view, on the other hand, provides an explanation of the Gog and Magog that is consistent with the Quran.

                    [This message has been edited by mAd_ScIeNtIsT (edited November 05, 2001).]
                    Muslims are so good at dividing that they can divide the atom. If you see two Muslims, probably they belong to 3 parties.
                    Al-Ghazali

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Doesn't Zulqernain means 'two horns'?

                      MadScientist, did you come across any legends on Alexander the Great rumored to have small protrusions in his skull resembling horns?

                      Also the wall seems to be a physical one.

                      "Bring me blocks of iron." At length, when he had filled up the space between the two steep mountain-sides, He said, "Blow (with your bellows)" Then, when he had made it (red) as fire, he said: "Bring me, that I may pour over it, molten lead."(18:96)
                      And (Gog and Magog) were not able to surmount, nor could they pierce (it)(18:97)
                      [This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited November 06, 2001).]
                      JaddoN kaddya jaloos ghareeba tay shehr ich choatalee lug gayee

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Okay, no more amateur analysis. I'm gonna ask a maulana about this......
                        Muslims are so good at dividing that they can divide the atom. If you see two Muslims, probably they belong to 3 parties.
                        Al-Ghazali

                        Comment

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