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Whats the Muslim feeling... ?

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    Whats the Muslim feeling... ?

    Are Muslims repentent for their own sordid history? History is full of atrocities committed by people of all faiths and nationalities. Is America alone in having a shameful past? We hear about Vietnam, Native Americans, Nagasaki, starving Iraqi children. Can we all admit that no group of people has had an unblemished history?

    The Ottoman Khilafah forced recruitment of Janissaries, which started in the 14th century. '... they forcibly took male children of the enslaved Christian families (mainly Greeks. and later also Armenians Bulgarians, Albanians and Serbs), and brought them up in special camps They conditioned them to become fanatic Turks and relentless killers to their own people. These children would grow up to believe that their father was the Sultan and that if they were to die in battle they would go to heaven. Thus, because of this New Army, or Janissaries, (Yeni-ceri in Turkish) the Turks continued to pursue their conquests.'
    Ottoman forces would raid Christian villages, and kidnap boys, who were then brought to Constantinople as slave-soldiers, and forcibly converted to Islam. They were banned from intimate relations with women, except when they attacked an enemy town or village, at which point they could pillage and rape for three days. This continued until 1700, after which membership became hereditary, and finally ended with the abolition of the Janissaries, after a rebellion. Other Christian children were kidnapped into slavery as palace officials, eunuchs and concubines. It is practices like these that have left dark memories in Balkan peoples and Armenians about the long years of Muslim rule.

    Members of the Ottoman forces 'burnt villages, enslaved the women and children, and the men fit to work. The sick and the old they decapitated. They sacked the churches and trampled the crucifixes into the ground.' They engaged in 'burning, raping, killing, enslaving...' It should be remembered that the Muslim army was commanded by the Grand Vizier himself, Kara Mustafa. It is difficult to see how such behaviour could be considered as attracting people to Islam.

    Khilafah Massacres from 1840-1860
    In fact, it was the constant incidence of genocide that obliged Western intervention in Ottoman affairs, leading to the eventual collapse of the State. In 1842, Muslims engaged in the following massacre:
    Badr Khan Bey, A Hakkari Kurdish Amir, combined with other Kurdish forces led by Nurallah, attacked the Assyrians, intending to burn, kill, destroy, and, if possible, exterminate the Assyrians race from the mountains. The fierce Kurds destroyed and burned whatever came within their reach. An indiscriminate massacre took place. The women were brought before the Amir and murdered in cold blood. The following incident illustrates the revolting barbarity: the aged mother of Mar Shimun, the Patriarch of the Church of the East, was seized by them, and after having practiced on her the most abominable atrocities, they cut her body into two parts and threw it into the river Zab, exclaiming, "go and carry to your accursed son the intelligence that the same fate awaits him." Nearly ten thousand Assyrians were massacred, and as large a number of woman and children were taken captive, most of whom were sent to Jezirah to be sold as slaves, to be bestowed as presents upon the influential Muslims. (Death of a Nation, pp. 111-112).

    The Balkan Massacres of the 1870s
    In Bosnia-Herzegovina, the rural Christian peasantry still lived under a system of serfdom, and faced heavy taxes from the Khilafah that were not endured by the Muslims. The Balkans suffered poor harvests in 1874, threatening starvation, yet the Ottoman State, far from assisting the populace, still demanded the usual taxes – again, influenced by Islamic law. The pressure-cooker finally blew-up in 1875, when the Christians of Bosnia-Herzegovina revolted against the Khilafah. The uprising spread to Serbia and Montenegro, which had been autonomous since 1829 whilst remaining under Ottoman suzerainty. Soon the revolt spread to Bulgaria, which had no rights of self-government under the Khilafah, because of the large Turkish and Muslim communities in the country and its proximity to the imperial capital

    The Massacres of the 1890s - Ottomans continued to massacre whole Christian communities, the most notable event being the massacres of 1894-96 when thousands of Armenian and Assyrian Christians - over 300,000 - were brutally murdered at the instigation of the Red Sultan Abdul Hamid II.

    The 1915 Genocide - In April 24 1915 the Ottoman authorities ordered the deportation of practically the entire Armenian and Assyrian Christian populations of eastern Asia Minor to Syria and Iraq, then part of the Ottoman Empire, and to massacre many of them. The genocide continued throughout the year. By the end of 1915, 1,500,000 Armenians and 250,000 Assyrians had been murdered. Many women were raped and children were kidnapped and enslaved to be brought up as Muslims. Many Christians – especially women - were crucified.

    #2
    yes lets see what our avg muslam friends got to say, they should be held accountable for these crimes like they expect americans to be responsible for thier history no matter how long ago it happened.

    Comment


      #3
      Yes Grits, the accusatory "holier than thou", (That is a Christian expression) tones around here need some balance. As I said in another thread, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" (another Christian expression).
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        #4
        There is no doubt about the fact that all societies and cultures and countries have some skeletons in their closets which they would like to keep hidden or covered.

        I guess one telling point that many would argue as errant is when you ask Is America alone in having a shameful past?
        Taking the question at face value, I for one, would not disagree with the fact that just about everyone has something sordid in their history. However, referring to the example you mentioned, it is something that allegedly happened over the course of 2-3 centuries, and gradually was weeded out, thanks to reforms and revolutions and what not. But regarding the US, one can argue, in reference to your above question, that yes, while America may not be alone in having a shameful 'past', but folks may argue that America is alone in having a sordid present. The end of the WWII was thought to be the harbinger of endless peace, since noone wanted to see a repeat of the carnage in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but despite huge jumps in technology and civilization, we continued to see events and mass killings like Korea, Vietnam, Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama, Lebanon among others. And some of these carnages continue to this day. I do believe there is a huge difference in societal values and approach between the world of today and the world of 3 centuries ago.

        Comment


          #5
          To the contrary. Muslims are very proud of the Ottoman past. Man, their Hirams were something else, talk about 72 virgins in paradise, it was paradise on earth if you ask my opinion (that’s the part I am particularly interested in). The other history is also very intriguing . The best way to learn about the Ottoman is to read some objectively written history books.

          Akif, the Ottoman is not that distant a past. As Sienfeld says: it is so comfy to rest your feet on it that some idiots named a whole empire after this piece of furniture.

          Comment


            #6
            Yes we all know History I suppose.
            But the sad thingy is that U.S adopted Ottoman behaviour and til now applies these methods (with modification) on other nations.

            Then who has a right to ask: WHY WE?!



            ------------------
            • “na maiN momin vich masiitaaN, na maiN muusaa, na fir'aun!”
            Ain't new ta this....HOMEINVASION('93)

            Comment


              #7
              Akif, here are 4 more recent examples http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/index.html

              (1) India - The Muslims forced the violent partition of India into three parts in 1947 (India, West Pakistan and East Pakistan). Even today, they terrorize the innocent people of India by causing bomb blasts and killing innocent individuals. Currently, the followers of Islam are concentrating their efforts in Kashmir, a northern state in India. Kashmir has been the land of the Hindus since ancient times. The word Kashmir itself is derived from Rishi Kashyap—a great spiritual leader of Hinduism. The Muslims have destroyed this beautiful land completely. Today the Pakistan-sponsored Muslim terrorists continue to kill, torture and rape the innocent Hindus of Kashmir. To cite the most recent incidents: In a cold-blooded massacre on the night of January 25th 1998, 23 Kashmiri Hindus, including 10 women and four children, were gunned down by a group of Islamic terrorists from Pakistan in Wandhama, 27 km from Srinagar. On April 19th Islamic terrorists belonging to the Pakistani Lashkar-e-Tobia terrorist organization claimed responsibility for gunning down at least 13 Kashmiri Hindus in Prankot village near Mahore in Udhampur district. The victims included four women and two children. Pakistan’s aim is to separate Kashmir from India and declare it as an Islamic state.

              (2) The Assyrian Nation - The horrible crimes committed by Islamic terrorists against the Assyrian nation is a well documented fact. Between 1980 and 1988 the Iraqi regime exiled thousands of Iraqi citizens to Iran on the charges that they were of Persian ancestry. Many Assyrians were targeted in this illegal and barbarous act. During this bloody war, it is estimated that up to 10,000 Assyrian men from Iraq were killed. The most disturbing aspect of this tragedy is that many of these Assyrians were killed in cold blood by their own Arab countrymen, just for being Assyrians. On December 13th 1997, a group of militants belonging to the Kurdish Labour Party (PKK), treacherously attacked six Assyrians through an ambush laid for them in the district of Mangeesh-Duhok, Northern Iraq. Two of them were killed immediately and the others were wounded, then the armed group charged over them and cold-bloodedly killed the wounded.

              (3) Bangladesh - Bangladesh was a part of India before the Muslim terrorists led by Mohammed Ali Jinnah separated it from India in 1947. It was then called East Pakistan. Jinnah lied to the thirteen million Hindus, Buddhists and Christians in East Pakistan and told them that they would not be persecuted against. He promised that they would be given full freedom under the Islamic rule. However, these religious minorities—especially the Hindus and the Buddhists have been tortured, raped and murdered by the pious Muslims ever since 1947. Over 2.5 million Hindus alone were slaughtered during the Pakistan-Bangladesh war in 1971. The types of crimes committed were perfectly in accordance with the Koran. Robert E. Burns, the author of Wrath of Allah states, "The mutilation was disgusting—eyes gouged out, pregnant women disemboweled, male genitals cut off, women’s breasts cut off….." The persecution of "unbelievers" in the name of Allah , continues even today in Bangladesh under the Islamic rule. For example, Taslima Nasreen, the author of Lajja was given a death sentence for just stating the facts and speaking against the inhumane, cruel and barbaric nature of Islam.

              (4) Algeria - Algeria has been under Islamic terrorist attack for quite some time now. Accurate casualty figures are difficult to acquire, but as many as 50,000 Algerians (militants, security personnel, and civilians) have died as a result of the nearly four-year-old insurgency. Even the U.S. embassy's warehouse was the target of Islamic terrorists. They set fire to the warehouse and threatened to kill the security guard just because he was working for the United States. The Islamic terrorist organization which carries out most of these attacks is called GIA (Algerian Armed Islamic Group). The GIA was responsible for the deaths of 31 foreigners in Algeria in 1995, compared to at least 64 in 1994. Most of the foreigners killed were "soft targets," such as teachers and nuns. Cowardly Islamic terrorists, conform to this pattern of targeting the most vulnerable and helpless segment of the population, in imitation of Prophet Mohammed's life. From July to October, a terrorist bombing campaign in France began against civilian targets, killing eight persons and wounding 160. And such attacks continue even today in Algeria.


              [This message has been edited by Mursalin (edited November 02, 2001).]

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Akif:
                There is no doubt about the fact that all societies and cultures and countries have some skeletons in their closets which they would like to keep hidden or covered.

                I guess one telling point that many would argue as errant is when you ask Is America alone in having a shameful past?
                Taking the question at face value, I for one, would not disagree with the fact that just about everyone has something sordid in their history. However, referring to the example you mentioned, it is something that allegedly happened over the course of 2-3 centuries, and gradually was weeded out, thanks to reforms and revolutions and what not. But regarding the US, one can argue, in reference to your above question, that yes, while America may not be alone in having a shameful 'past', but folks may argue that America is alone in having a sordid present. The end of the WWII was thought to be the harbinger of endless peace, since noone wanted to see a repeat of the carnage in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but despite huge jumps in technology and civilization, we continued to see events and mass killings like Korea, Vietnam, Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama, Lebanon among others. And some of these carnages continue to this day. I do believe there is a huge difference in societal values and approach between the world of today and the world of 3 centuries ago.
                Again people can't admit there short comings our sorrid present? Iraq killing tens of thousand of it own people not sorrid?Talaban killing tens of thousands of people not sorrid?NA killing thousands not sorrid?Muslams killing christians in church not sorrid?Muslams killing in the phillpians not sorrid?Muslams killing christians and burning churches in Africa not sorrid?The list goes on, your present is just as sorrid.No mention of concertration camps in Europe not sorrid enough for you they killed over 5,000,000 people but yet all you mention is Hiroshima,nagasaki where less than a million people were killed what didn't want to hurt Ali feelings?They didn't want to see a repeat of what Germany did, not what America did.

                Comment


                  #9
                  In each and every civilization the leading force is held responsible for the events, which are taking place around him.

                  You are right

                  >>They should be held accountable for these crimes like they expect americans to be responsible for their history no matter how long ago it happened.<<

                  The thing, which the Ottoman Empire started with the Armenian and the Kurds (in Persia/Northern Arabia/Current Turkey) lead to the disintegration of the Empire, In less than 100 years. There is nothing Islamic in that, it was pure ethnic cleansing, after almost 500 years of rule, the thing boiled down to nationality,… Turks, the great Turks...

                  Yet you have to remember that their where several parallel Muslim rulers at that time which didn’t agree with the Ottoman Empire, notably the Kings in Egypt and the Idresis in Libya and Algeria. Which ultimately helped the process of disintegration.

                  Now you can easily draw a parallel, Put Russia or anybody in place of Ottoman Empire, and you will come to the same conclusion.
                  بِن دانا پانی میں جی لواں
                  بِن انَک میں جی نہ سکاں

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I dont know what it proves regardless.

                    Grit presented 'more examples' from some 'satyamshivam' site, which wreaks of prejudice. Just2much wants to justify America's current killing spree based on the Ottomons.

                    My simple question is....are your personal/collective values dependent on incidents that happened in the past? Is it ok to commit a rape and justify it by saying that hey, such and such muslim committed a rape in Pakistan as well? Why not speak for yourself, for your own actions? Are you accountable for your own actions, period, or are you accountable for your actions, based on someone elses actions in another time period?

                    Lets analyze situations indivually, rather than mix and match green with blue! If you acknowledge the fact that the current actions of America are not in line with the norms and values that they so highly tout of, then in fact, you admit that by comparing them to past atrocities committed by other countries and groups, America is a part of the same group. If thats the case, then in effect, you dont have an argument in favor of any possible 'morality' that this war holds. All you can say is that hey, we have the power, and in the words of George Bush, we will attack who we want, when we want, where we want, and for how long we want. Dont beat around the bush trying to justify it then.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      You can not blame a religion for the acts of a government. Governments can not apply religion in their decision making process. If the Untied States government was "Christian" and held themselves to those values then they would "turn the other cheek" to Osama or whoever. Now ask yourself can they really do that? NO To protect the people they need to do something to makes sure it doesn't happen again. If the United States Government was Christian they would pull out of ALL foreign countries and quit controlling them with big coorporations and loans.They would take care of them for the simple reason of caring, not for some hidden motive. But as a government they can't really do that can they? They need to protect their people. If any other country in the world had the power the United States has they would be doing the same thing, whether they claimed to be mainly muslim,christian,jewish,hindu, yadayadayada.... Eventually we will all stop the fighting over who is right or wrong, whos religion is right or wrong.Stop pointing fingers. As long as we ALL change our selves on an individual level then we can change the world.

                      [This message has been edited by ThePriest (edited November 02, 2001).]

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Akif,

                        I think the basis for this thread was that various posters have used incidents such as Nagasaki and Hiroshima as REASONS and rationalizations for terrorist acts. Someone on another thread mentioned the "genocide" of Native Americans, which is also 200 to 300 years ago. Grits real point here is that every country or religion has it's own bloody past, so perhaps some flaming aircraft should be sent virtually everywhere. Somehow on this board, American policies are placed under a microscope with a bright light. Yet, 1.7 million killed in 1915 was really quite recent, and far worse than Hiroshima and Nagasaki in absolute terms.

                        And yes, you would think that the use of nuclear weapons would bring a cold and sobering effect to the world of international adventurism, yet on this board I have heard Muslim Rambos wish to "redefine the shorelines of India and China", with some of Pakistans nuclear weapons. Political and religious radicalism have made no progress, and morality has not kept up with the ability of humans to destroy others.
                        Boycott Venezuelas State owned Citgo.

                        Buy Royal Dutch Shell gasoline!

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by ThePriest:
                          You can not blame a religion for the acts of a government. Governments can not apply religion in their decision making process. If the Untied States government was "Christian" and held themselves to those values then they would "turn the other cheek" to Osama or whoever. Now ask yourself can they really do that? NO To protect the people they need to do something to makes sure it doesn't happen again. If the United States Government was Christian they would pull out of ALL foreign countries and quit controlling them with big coorporations and loans.They would take care of them for the simple reason of caring, not for some hidden motive. But as a government they can't really do that can they? They need to protect their people. If any other country in the world had the power the United States has they would be doing the same thing, whether they claimed to be mainly muslim,christian,jewish,hindu, yadayadayada.... Eventually we will all stop the fighting over who is right or wrong, whos religion is right or wrong.Stop pointing fingers. As long as we ALL change our selves on an individual level then we can change the world.

                          [This message has been edited by ThePriest (edited November 02, 2001).]
                          nice post. I agree to almost all of it.

                          Muslims/Pakistanis on this forum are telling what 'we/Muslims' beleive America has done in the world and continuing to do so. It is true that no nation is free from black past. Christians are guilty of crusades. Muslims are guilty of invasions as well. Now, both religions do not tell its followers to kill civilians, I beleive, but beleivers did not follow what they were told.... bringing bad name to their own religion.

                          If past of any nation/followers of any religion is not free of black spots, does that mean that its okay to destroy its followers? NO.

                          If Muslims have killed their own people in different names, does it mean that followers of other religion or other nations can do whatever they desire to do with them? NO.

                          If history of a nation/religion's followers is black, does that mean that they be persecuted? tried in courts for what happened in past centuries? NO.

                          But if "present" of a country/nation/religion is "black" should we not 'criticize'? Should we keep quiet and watch it? Should we praise whatever is happening irrespective of who, what and why?

                          ------------------
                          We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

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