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What does Hinduism say about Revenge??

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    What does Hinduism say about Revenge??

    and what does Indians think about it. Is there any difference. just wondering due to the recent past.

    #2

    khan saab, in my experience, most "hindus" dont really care about what hinduism says on each and every matter. so it might not really be an important issue what the scriptures say.

    if you really want to know, my conjecture is that you'll find both approaches in hinduism - right from Hammurabi's tit-for-tat style, to Jesus's turn the other cheek one. the most accepted philosophy is probably the one from the Gita - do your deeds(karma) with no worries about repercusions. be guided by the truth alone, and not practicalities.
    Simple ain't easy.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by khan_sahib:
      and what does Indians think about it. Is there any difference. just wondering due to the recent past.
      Ibrahim says; hinduim is mostly/best understood through its epics , which are played out to convey the message that is found in its scriptures.

      The following is an excerpt of a Ramayana translator's summary of Kiskindhakanda, the fourth book of the Ramayana: [ as written by Goldman, Robert P. The Ramayana of Valmiki: an Epic of Ancient India. Balakanda (vol. 1), introduction p.10].


      "The fourth book of the epic (Kiskindhakanda) is set largely in the monkey citadel of Kiskindha and continues the fairy-tale atmosphere of the preceding book. Rama and Laksmana meet Hanuman, the greatest of monkey heroes and an adherent of Sugriva, the banished pretender to the throne of Kiskindha. Sugriva tells Rama a curious tale of his rivalry and conflict with his brother, the monkey king Vali, and the two conclude a pact: Rama is to help Sugriva kill Vali and take both his throne and his queen. In return for this, Sugriva is to aid in the search for the lost Sita. Accordingly, Rama shoots Vali from ambush while the latter is engaged in hand-to-hand combat with Sugriva. Finally, after much delay and procrastination, Sugriva musters his warriors and sends them out in all directions to scour the earth in search of Sita."

      Ibrahim says; hence when it comes to rivalry and revenge Hinduism lacks morality, which is established when rama the great upholder of Hindu dharma kills an unarmed man because he had made a pact with another.

      This is further confirmed by his killing of an innocent sudra (slave) because he was trying to become a believer. Meaning caste slavery was more important than ethics .

      Lord Rama, the sat-purusa (ideal man) & the great upholder of dharma, upholds the dharma of slaughtering an innocent Sudra only because he was performing asceticism (tapas). Low-castes like Sudras were not allowed to perform austerities or penances as Brahmins were, because the whole universe could go out of balance when caste divisions are not adhered to. Therefore, Sambuka, only because he was born as a Sudra and was performing the svadharma (caste duty) of a higher caste than his own, was slain by Rama as a sacrifice:


      "Thereupon approaching him, Rama said, 'O you of good vows, blessed are you; I do ask you, now, O highly effulgent and grown old in asceticism, inwhat Varna (caste) are you born? I put this question out of curiosity. I am the son of king Dasaratha and my name is Rama. For what are you going throughsuch hard austerities? Is it heaven or anything else that you pray for? O ascetic, I wish to hear, of the purpose for which you are performing such hardpenances. Are you a Brahman, or an irrepressible Ksatriya or the third caste Vaisya or a Sudra? Speak the truth and you shall be crowned withauspiciousness.' Hearing the words of Rama, the ascetic, whose face was downwards, gave out his degraded birth and communicated unto him for what hewas performing ascetic observances. Hearing the words of Rama of unwearied actions, the ascetic, with his face downwards, said, 'O highly illustriousRama, I am born in the race of Sudras; and with a view to reach the region of the celestials with my body I am going through these austere penances. OKakutstha (Rama), I shall never utter a falsehood since I am willing to conquer the region of gods. I am a Sudra and my name is Sambuka.' The Sudraascetic having said this, Rama took out of scabbard a beautiful sharp sword and chopped off his head therewith. And that Sudra being slain, Indra, Agniand other celestials praised him again and again and showered flowers." -- Ramayana 7:88-89.

      Most of all you might be surprised to learn that Hinduism teaches that one should fight till death and those who do that will obtain heaven.


      Comment


        #4

        >>Ibrahim says; hence when it comes to rivalry and revenge Hinduism lacks morality, which is established when rama the great upholder of Hindu dharma kills an unarmed man because he had made a pact with another.<<

        firstly, where is revenge in this picture?

        secondly, it is obvious from your false interpretation that you are unaware of the circumstances which alienated Vali and Sugriva, unless you are deliberately misrepresenting the issue.

        >>This is further confirmed by his killing of an innocent sudra (slave) because he was trying to become a believer. Meaning caste slavery was more important than ethics .<<

        One, totally unrelated to the topic of revenge.

        Two, the incident you describe is a falsification, there is no such incident in the Ramayana. your having access to a hindu hate site doesnt change Ramayana.

        >>Most of all you might be surprised to learn that Hinduism teaches that one should fight till death and those who do that will obtain heaven.<<

        Another blanket statement, probably quoted out of context. It would make sense, if it were, Hinduism teaches that one should fight till death for the truth, and those who do that stand a chance of obtaining heaven.

        Since you brought up the Ramayana, if you examine almost any of the positive character, you'll notice a lot of sacrifices, and not revenge, on their parts. Rama ungrudgingly bore his step mom's decision to banish him to the forest, his brother Bharata who was crowned the king handed the throne over the very first day Rama returned from his exile. Rama's wife Sita treated Bharata like her own brother, with absolutely no revenge in mind. The examples are numerous, and stare you in the face, unless you are hell bent upon scourging hate-sites to spread misinformation.

        May God have mercy upon you.
        Simple ain't easy.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by queer:
          firstly, where is revenge in this picture? secondly, it is obvious from your false interpretation that you are unaware of the circumstances which alienated Vali and Sugriva, unless you are deliberately misrepresenting the issue.
          Ibrahim says; I am pointing to the fact that Rama being a god for hindus, made a pact on the basis of what was conveyed to him and fulfilled that pact as agreed between them because he was in need (to find sita) .

          second the fact remains that he killed Vali in a cowardly fashion. So the morality behind it stinks in the sense that a god needed help and was willing to kill for it. Which may not be rivalry or revenge in the case of Rama but immoral in the way it was done.

          >>This is further confirmed by his killing of an innocent sudra (slave) because he was trying to become a believer. Meaning caste slavery was more important than ethics .<<

          Originally posted by queer:
          One, totally unrelated to the topic of revenge.
          Ibrahim says: Revenge , rivalry and needs can lead to killing others is what I am trying to emphasize here, I am focusing on rama’s character . I did not say it had to do with revenge. So read and comprehend what I am conveying concerning a hindu god who is supposed to teach and practice very high moral values as a whole. Although the enquiry was about revenge , I used the epics to convey how the gods behaved in Hinduism and what Hinduism allows in terms of killing others, which was what I assumed the question was about.

          Originally posted by queer:
          Two, the incident you describe is a falsification, there is no such incident in the Ramayana. your having access to a hindu hate site doesnt change Ramayana.
          Ibrahim says; hmmm, that is strange for I had discussed this with some hindus and they have yet to make such a claim like yours. Can I know which version of Ramayana you have checked and found it non-existent?

          >>Most of all you might be surprised to learn that Hinduism teaches that one should fight till death and those who do that will obtain heaven.<<

          Originally posted by queer:
          Another blanket statement, probably quoted out of context. It would make sense, if it were, Hinduism teaches that one should fight till death for the truth, and those who do that stand a chance of obtaining heaven.
          Ibrahim says: Exactly, what I am saying. Hinduism enjoins fighting till death for truth, honor etc which most DIY hindus will deny and claim it is all about ahimsa .
          Further what I am trying to convey is that, there is a heaven and hell, which DIY hindus will deny and further there is NO reincarnation , which DIY hindus will deny . All this is proven, the moment you acknowledge the fact that those who fight for the TRUTH will reach heaven and NOT reincarnated over and over again as what hindus have been misled to believe.

          BTW the verse I am referring to appears as follows. .

          'Those who fight without surrendering their weapons reach heaven from which there is no return' Siva Purana Uma Samhita 21.25

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Ibrahim:

            Ibrahim says: Exactly, what I am saying. Hinduism enjoins fighting till death for truth, honor etc which most DIY hindus will deny and claim it is all about ahimsa .


            pandit ibrahim, what this has to do with revenge.

            Further what I am trying to convey is that, there is a heaven and hell, which DIY hindus will deny and further there is NO reincarnation , which DIY hindus will deny . All this is proven, the moment you acknowledge the fact that those who fight for the TRUTH will reach heaven and NOT reincarnated over and over again as what hindus have been misled to believe.

            BTW the verse I am referring to appears as follows. .

            'Those who fight without surrendering their weapons reach heaven from which there is no return' Siva Purana Uma Samhita 21.25


            OK! That means not throwing up hands when u should be defending urself.

            Please be specific to Khan sahib's question 'revenge'.

            [This message has been edited by ZZ (edited September 15, 2001).]

            Comment


              #7
              The answer to this idiotic query is simple. How many hindu holy warriors are flying jumbo jets into the WTC. How many buddist? How many Christian? How many Jewish? No other religion charges religion with the political manifesto, but Islam. (BTW/it is only the 1% of muslims who probably feel this way) These are the ones that are going to hell. The 99% rest assured know god.

              Comment


                #8
                queer, thanks. I have got the understanding but still unclear as to what (let's say) a mom would teach to her kids to do in similar situation as I know that we are told that it is OK to take revenge as long as you take it with EXACTLY same intensity but if you forgive it is better. My question was regarding as to how a hindu family would teach their kids even if they have forgotten their religion I am sure there would be some values coming from their culture. Please ignore the idiots who think David Koresh, Hitler and Pol Pot were muslims.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by khan_sahib:
                  queer, thanks. I have got the understanding but still unclear as to what (let's say) a mom would teach to her kids to do in similar situation as I know that we are told that it is OK to take revenge as long as you take it with EXACTLY same intensity but if you forgive it is better. My question was regarding as to how a hindu family would teach their kids even if they have forgotten their religion I am sure there would be some values coming from their culture. Please ignore the idiots who think David Koresh, Hitler and Pol Pot were muslims.
                  there is a lot of emphasis on 'kshama' (pardon) in ancient india. supposedly an arnament of fighter. one who surrenders and accepts guilt could be pardoned. an example has been prithwiraj chowhan who defeated mohammad ghori 18 times and pardoned him each time. of course, there was no pardon when ghori won the 19th battle. being gracious in victory is considered sign of greatness. when Ram defeated Ravana, he did not annex Ravana's kingdom as well, he rather put Ravan's brother as king and went back to where he belonged.

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