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    Kismet, Destiny, Fate! Is it really that hard to understand?

    I know we have such great scholars scoring it out in this forum, so lets invite them to share their thoughts on this issue. I am always vexed by this.

    They say that Loh-e-Mehfooz has all our lives occurances stored in it. So, it knows what each of us is gonna do. So, the one who commits a gunnah was pre-destined to commit the gunah anyway, and there is no way, he can go againt what is written about him in Loh-e-Mehfooz or, in simple words, his kismet (destiny).

    On the other side, some scholars say that 'No'. Allah created you in this world and gave you choices. You can either select the right way or go the wrong way.

    Does that mean, that Allah Ta'llah doesn't know what we will do or will be doing ten years from now?

    I find it hard to believe because one of the characteristics of Allah is that He is All Knowing. Its not like a multiple choice question, that Allah has four different paths outlined for us and we will take one of them, and Allah doesn't know which one will we select.

    So, whats true?

    If we commit a gunnah, were we supposed to commit it anyway, cz its in our kismet. But that will make us complacent, isn't it? When we say I don't need to change because it is my kismet that I am commiting gunnah. Doesn't sound right.

    Or we commit gunnah because we had a choice and no one, including Allah, knows what our choice will be.

    Since Allah knows everything thats going to happen, then He knows how we will spend our lives and whether at the end we will go to jannat or hell. Isn't that right?

    Is it all a charade?

    Your valuable thoughts are invited.

    #2
    It's simple subhanallah.

    Allah has the knowledge of everything. Allah knew eternllay what happened, and what will happen. Allah does not change, change is from the attributes of the creations.

    When one is ill, and he takes medicine it does not mean Allah changed his will and cured that person because of the medicine, it's Allah who willed eternally that the ill person will take the medicine and Allah makes the medicine as a reason for the cure.

    Note: Medicine does not create the cure, Knife does not create cutting, fire does not create burning. It is Allah. But Allah made reasons and results. Thus, fire is a reason for fire, but if Allah willed fire will not burn such as what happened with Prophet Abraham. Knife a reason for cutting, but does not create the actual cutting (as some claim). It's Allah.

    Therefore, Allah knew eternally the decisions we are going to make, and the thoughts and incidents and movements, it's just the matter of it's creation when it occurs on our hand.

    But do we have an option? Do we have will? Yes, of course, however it is under the will of Allah. We have intelect by which to choose, Allah created for us the options and we choose.

    Allah knows everything, and ALlah knows best.

    ------------------
    <<>> Learning the Obligatory Knowledge of the Religion puts the Muslim on the road for excellence and self-betterment. Acquire The Islamic Knowledge Before You Discuss Religion!!

    Ahmad/Islamic Studies
    Ahmad G
    Islamic Studies Teacher/Student.

    Comment


      #3
      Exactly!

      So it means that if Allah knows that Mr ABC is going to commit a murder and die through lethal injection, then Mr ABC will definitely commit the murder and die through lethal injection. There is no way Mr ABC can change this fate. Right?

      So, I come back to my original question. When Allah Ta'llah exactly knows what we are going to do and what is going to happen with us till all eternity, then we really can't change it. So whats the point?

      Why doesn't Allah just decide that this big group will be admitted to paradise because they will do all good in their lives. And this group will be thrown in the hell-fire because they will commit sins. Allah already knows, and it won't change, regardless of what we do.

      Does it make any sense?

      Comment


        #4
        Hmmm, the question is essentially going into the areas where we have to understnad Allah, and don't you know that that is impossible for humans and we are not supposed to do that?

        Have you never heard of the case where a boss wanting to test his employees can create for them a 'percieved' oppurtunity to betray him when they couldn't actually do it because the boss would have complete control and would be watching all the time. So although the employees couldn't really do anything against the boss's wishes he would still be able to test their tendencies and how they would act given an oppurtunity.

        Let's make it more formal,

        Think of it like this, a maalik decides to test his nokars so he puts them in a house where there are temptations such as oppurtunities to steal stuff or anything else that would tempt a person. Now the maalik is also wise and based on his knowledge knows how each of his employees will turn out, let's say he also writes this down. This doesn't mean that the employees are not free to do as they please.

        Not only that but the maalik is also wise and powerfull and has complete control over ALL conditions of his test, and the employees are not aware of his control. He could stop them from doing anything whenever he pleased and they would only be able to do what he has decided to allow them, only they are not supposed to.

        Now at the end of this if all the employees turn out EXACTLY the way their boss predicted ,they still have no right to complain because he gave them complete freedom. But the correct prediction of the maalik about their behaviour would be a measure of his wisdom and how flawless this maalik is in what he does.

        Now Allah is ABSOLUTE perfection. Perfection to a degree that we with our human minds cannot understand. So His predictions would always be right. He would have written down exactly what is going to happen and not an atom in His universe will move without his prior knowledge and consent.
        But then He has given this consent, and also given Man the freedom to do as he pleases. The world is a test with all its temptations and Man has been given the knowledge to distinguish Right and Wrong and the freedom to choose so he can't complain.

        So although the real freedom is limited, Man has the percived freedom, which makes him answerable. That he will do everything according to what Allah has already written down is just a measure of the perfection of Allah's prediction. We can't fathom it.

        HE doesn't merely predict, HE knows and since His knowledge can never be wrong, nothing can or will ever happen contarary to what He has said.

        Now this should be enough, but let me still argue the same from another angle,

        You as an individual know that Allah is supreme and that you can't even move your finger or turn your eyes from right to left without his knowledge and consent,you have that faith.
        BUT for a moment put that aside and try to do just those 2 things. I mean really, physically DO them. Don't you feel while doing that that you as an individual are doing exactly as YOU want? Don't you feel while doing them that you are under no compulsion to do those things and can do them at your liesure? (If it doesn't help do it again and again )
        Now remember your faith, of course you can only do it because Allah has given you the permission to do it and because of His perfection knew before that at this day in your life you were going to move your fingers. But that doesn't take anything away from your freedom.

        That right there is your freedom, and the reason you are answerable on the day of judgement. Your feelings, your senses are the freedom given to you.

        And if you still don't understand than simply consider this, whenever you are doing something worng, don't you get a ping inside? a voice admonishing you not to do it? That right there is your freedom, and the reason you are held answerable on the day of judgement.

        Hope this helps.

        [This message has been edited by Ahmed (edited September 07, 2001).]

        Comment


          #5
          It helps. Thanks...

          But the essential question remains. Why?

          Lets break down the argument in bite-sized pieces.

          The way I am looking at it is, that humans are mere creations of Allah Ta'allah. Right?

          Allah can do anything with His creations, and we can't stop Him. Right?

          He can create a soul, give him birth (a baby) and the baby dies 3 days later. The baby is pure and will go to paradise. Right?

          Allah exactly knows what we are going to do. He exactly knows whether we will end up in heaven or in hell. Do you dispute that?

          Now, moving forward, if Allah already knows that, and we are just His creations, why doesn't He just put us in paradise or hell-fire directly. Why go through this charade called life? I agree we have a choice, but whatever choices we have, still Allah knows what we are gonna end up doing. Just put us away and be done with it.

          Is it all just to tell us, that because you did good deeds so you are now in heaven and you, who did bad deeds, are now in hell? Allah doesn't need our goodwill or our acceptance for His decisions. Does He?

          Lets take an example. You do all good deeds in this world. Towards the end you make one grave mistake e.g. you did shirk. After the Day of Qiyama, you were put in hell, can you file an appeal? No. So you will go to hell. Even though you did all good deeds in the world, Allah always knew you will commit that one grave sin in the end which will waste all your good deeds. So if its in your fate that you will end up doing shirk in the end... then whats the point of this all?

          Similarly, we hear many people moan, after they failed an exam or something, "hamaree kismet hee kharab hai". Or some other people say "humm apni kismet khud badal saktay hein". Some may consider them defeatist or pompous claims, respectively. Real question is, can we go against what Allah has willed. Answer is No.

          So, whats the verdict?

          [This message has been edited by Pristine (edited September 07, 2001).]

          Comment


            #6
            hey pristine, its my first post on the gupshup so please ignore my little mistakes if i make them...any way...about your question...well yes i did used to wonder a lot about why did he create us when he already knows whats our destination...i once asked my nana and i think he explained to my and i think if i try to explain it you might get the point...
            well as a belief every muslim has that allah SAW knows every thing...even what actions we are going to take and what we are going to do..so its like he knows what we are going to do..and not the other way that we are going to do what he knows...so in a way we have freedome but he knows what our choice will be...any way i think you understand this point...now lets go to your main question about why? well i will try as best as i can...well you see it was prefectly possible for ALLAH SWT to just put us in hell or heaven or where ever we are supposed to go..but the thing is ALLAH is JUST..and one aspect of justice is that the victim (moslty victims complain...) be told about his/her crimes..and that he/she understands that the punishment he/she is given is just and is waht they deserve...so what better and not arguable way to show the criminals their guilt than to let them live it as they like adn then at the end give them exact details of what crimes they did in the world. so if they ever say to ALLAH SWT that they were not done justice, ALLAH tells them what they did and the case is closed...justice served...now what if he had just decided to put us in heaven and hell with out our live...what do you think people in hell would say to him? they would say oh lord of the worlds you are punishing us for the crimes we never committed and if we were truely given a chance we would not have followed the devil...so i think that is the probable reason he put us in this world..ofcourse only he knows the real reason but humans can only try to guess what his intentions are...

            Comment


              #7
              Pristine Bhai,

              Going back to the original question!

              You know how the flour mill works. If you put grains in from one side, flour will come out from the other!

              Now you have this knowledge! But unless someone put the grains in the the machine, the flour will not come out from the other side automatically. But you do have the knowledge & understanding of how the whole process works!

              Thats how I believe, Allah has knowledge and understanding of the whole universie, as how it works! But at the same time its the 'free will' of us to choose the outcome!

              Allah's Knowledge aparently precedes in time as He Himself created time and universe but actually depends in order of events of its develers as us!

              Allah knows if we chooses A what will happen and also know if we choose B what will happen. What we choose is up to us!

              Hopefully I made some sense.
              I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
              - Robert McCloskey

              Comment


                #8
                As ironic as it sounds, the whole concept of Pre-destination is based on freedom of choice and free will. Within our physical ability and mental capacity, we have been given the free will to choose to do as we please. But whatever we choose to do, it would have been pre-destined and willed by Allaah. This is because he is All Knowing and His Will Power cannot be matched by anyone, as his Attributes are far superior to those of His creation – they are perfect, and He is perfect.

                As for the purpose behind why we are not simply introduced to our stations (be it in Paradise or Hell) instead of having to experience the trials of this world, particularly if Allaah knows the end result, then this is because Allaah is the Most Just. Exactly as our new guppie ThandyMazak pointed out. Well done kid! Masha'Allaah.

                If we were to merely take up our positions in Paradise or Hell without living in this world, then we would argue and complain that Allaah was being unjust. But by living through the tests of this life, we cannot say to Allaah on the Day of Judgement that He was unfair, because he is giving us the chance to make the correct decisions in life. Even after this freedom of choice, as you know, those who will be destined to the Hellfire on the Day of Recompense will plead to Allaah to give them another chance in this world - they will be begging. So how would we react if we weren’t given this opportunity in the first place? This proves that Allaah is Most Just and that He is Most Perfect and nothing can ever take anything away from His Majesty.

                wassalaam

                - - - - - - -
                "No leaf falls except that he knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."


                [This message has been edited by Hasnain (edited September 07, 2001).]

                Comment


                  #9
                  Ok, let me get this straight. Are you saying that all this worldy life is there so that we humans can later on say that Allah is just. And if someone ends up in hell-fire he or she would know that it is because he or she committed sins. Even though Allah knew from day one that he or she will end in hell-fire because Allah knew they will commit sins?

                  So, its all so that Allah's creation ends up feeling that they deserved whatever they got, and Allah is just. Is that what you are all saying?

                  Lets move the argument forward.

                  Human beings in this world can be ungrateful to their creator. We see examples of human beings who not only refuse to thank their Creator (Allah) for all the blessings, but some go as far as to negate the whole concept that their is a Creator. Aethiest. Right?

                  However this will not be the case on or after the day of judgement. On that day, we will all rise up and will see Allah ta'llah and will be evaluated for our deeds. Presumably every single one of us will realize that there is a God and He is All Mighty, and He is Just. We won't be thinking in the earthly sense, where we doubt stuff and need evidence. We will know what is true and what is right in front of us. Is that right?

                  So, my question becomes, why does Allah need to convince us that He is just? We are His creations. He can just instill in us, that He is just. He already knows which ones of us should go to paradise and whice ones of us should be thrown in hell-fire. Doesn't He?

                  Is this all life, hundreds and thousands of years, just to convince us, a mere creation of Allah, that He is just?

                  Add to it, that Allah says in the Quran that You are my creations, why should I like to put any of my creations in hell-fire? Meaning Allah wants each of us to be successful and put in paradise. SO, why create sinners in the first place. Just create perfect muslims. Just create those human beings who will be admitted to paradise and be done away with. Why create sinners, because whatever these people think and whatever freedom they may have, it has been pre-destined that they will commit sins and end up being the fuel of hell-fire. Why create creations like that?

                  The only explanation could be Allah wants to put a big group of people in hell-fire. That is not true, because in Quran Allah says, that He doesn't want to do that.

                  Are we going round in circles?



                  [This message has been edited by Pristine (edited September 08, 2001).]

                  Comment


                    #10
                    So you are asking us to tell you Why Allah does what Allah does?? You know this to be impossible.
                    I alluded to it in my first reply that going on this particular path will not yield anything.

                    Now you are not asking the right question or rathe rnot thinking about the logical conclusion of your questions? IF Allah doesn't need to convince his creations of anything and if He is not to give them a life but just put them in Hell or Heaven , then Why creat at all? You forgot to ask that?

                    So is Allah to just creat and then put these creations in hell and heaven?
                    Just that.
                    Create and put in in heaven and hell.
                    And then again, create and put in heaven and hell.

                    Don't you think that that exercise is far more meaningless and without point than the actual activity which you percieve to be without point?

                    Againg do you mean to ask us to tell you why Allah does what he does? We couldn't.

                    The bottom line is that Man could ask a question, as to if he is geting a fair deal and THAT as I explained above he is. So just be concerned with your own fate and stop asking justification for Allah's creation.

                    This short explanation should answer all your questions, even ones which I didn't explain directly and the ones that you are going to ask .

                    But just to be more comprehensive, I will share a hadith which I heard but I don't remember where I heard it, according to which Allah says,
                    "Main nay Insaan ko banaya takay main pehchana jaoon".

                    Comment


                      #11

                      To all those who consider such questions unworthy of answers are more than welcome to go to other threads where they will have ample opportunities to bash other members, fight with Ahmadis and shias and wahabis and what not, tell them who is and who isn't a muslim, and delve on deeper mysteries of sufism. I am sure all of you do that to increase your good deeds. God speed to you.

                      To all others, who wonder about more deeper questions, feel free to share your opinions. This discussion is just to stimulate the mind about the greater mysteries of life. This is not a life-altering discussion and no one is going to throw you out of the ambit of Islam if you post your opinions here (even if they do, you don't have to take them seriously)

                      Ahmed, I read your reply a few times, and the only conclusion I drew was that as per you this is meaningless. Also you said the question isn't right and you went ahead and graced us with what you think is the right question. Thanks a lot and forgive me for saying but it is difficult to get a straight answer from your post. Maybe you never intended it to be the answer, but rather a suggestion that it is unworthy of discussion. Either case, I missed your point.

                      Comment


                        #12


                        Pristine, who exactly is the above post for? I amsure it is not for me. Because here I was using the best of my abilities to give sincere answers to your post. I took pains to explain my points and no where did I attack anyone or took any pot-shots but only trying to be helpfull.

                        So I am sure the above post is not intended for me.

                        Btw, y exactly do you need to in a serious thread which is going pretty well with all decent replies to suddenly come in and take pot-shots and vent emotions developed God knows where, because I can't fathom why you would say this sort of cocky stuff in this thread. I can't see anyone in this thread who you would need to say all this to.

                        And then you guys complain when other people do that. And tell them to grow up and to not spill stuff in places where it is not needed. And to not start anything and what not....

                        [This message has been edited by Ahmed (edited September 08, 2001).]

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Pristine:
                          Ahmed, I read your reply a few times, and the only conclusion I drew was that as per you this is meaningless. Also you said the question isn't right and you went ahead and graced us with what you think is the right question. Thanks a lot and forgive me for saying but it is difficult to get a straight answer from your post. Maybe you never intended it to be the answer, but rather a suggestion that it is unworthy of discussion. Either case, I missed your point.
                          I think you did miss my point .

                          I didn't say that the question was not rightand gave the right question.... NO what I actually did was take your interesting question and assume that supposing that happens the way you were postulating , I took the next step of 'what then'?

                          Because i think the answer to your question lies there.

                          Your question I believe was kay why not just create ppl and then put them in hell or heaven?

                          I was trying to answer that by assuming that were to happen.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Sometime back me and waleed were chatting and he asked me this same question. I(As a 15 year old)found the question very intersting so I got out my trusty notebook and started to put down what ever came to me first. These are my results.

                            To Allah our Lives ae like a road map.

                            He knows exactly what will happen. We are like cars traveling on a road called life. At the end of the road there are 3 endings, janat, Jahanum and al araf. Allah has the roadmap with him(so he knows where we are goinga nd what we will do to get there)

                            So then at everyturn we come to crossroads where we must choose the path(Allah knows what will happen when we choose anypath as it is like a devine plan to him)if we take route36(Stealing)we will either get away with it or our hands will be cut off.

                            I hope it is simple to understand if it is not than I can try again.......

                            Comment


                              #15
                              hey pristine bahi...even thougu you might be older than me (16) i think i can still try to explain this answer...firt of all my advise would be not to worry about these affairs as sooner or later we will get in to questions that we can never answer and will make us even more confused....any way it was just an advise....any way last night i was at my job so i was free as usual (blimpie..hehe) and i was thinking about this question in physical sense.....ok i think u understand that according to laws of relativity, as a partical moves faster and faster, the passage of time for that matter slows down according to the reference at stand still...right...and when the particle moves at the speed of light, time ceases to exist for that particle from the reference frame that is at stand still correct? ok, now since time is non existence for that particle, applying the idea that time and space are in fact one thing, space is also non existance for that particle...so then the particle can be at any place at any given time....this is important...are you getting me untill now? lets suppose that particle "decides" to go 1 million years in future, since there is no time for that particle how would you describe the speed at which the particle moves through time??? speed is distance over time, and since time is 0, speed is undefined or in other words infinite..ok....get it? so that means that the particle can move across the time instantaniously (spelling?) according to the reference frame at stand still...now lets say that particle decided to move across time and check out the life of a person from birht to death, and "sees" what ever action that guy commits and stuff..now how does that particle effect the actions of that guy??????? even though the particle was right there when he committed the crime and , since the particle also has no space, thus is not matter, and can not effect the actions of that guy what so ever..so evne though the particle "knows" every action that guy does, but the particle's knowledge does not effect what the guys does in any way....get it?? now i am not saying that i am trying to define Allah because as he has said it even if we convert all the oceans of the world to ink and double it an convert all the trees to pens we still can't finish defining Allah and his attributes..but it was just an example i thought off last night...i think that as far as i know, this is completely according to the accepted laws of physics as i understand as i havent taken any official course in physics so far but have just picked it up from here and there so i might have some things confused, but i think i tried my best to answer your question....hope it helps

                              [This message has been edited by ThandyMazaq (edited September 09, 2001).]

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