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    Can Ibrahim Please Explain:

    Ibrahim, who posts long (often boring) research here on this forum, had made the following remarks in another thread.

    “….I am aware that the Qur'an published by the ahamdia in 100+ translations all over the world has been altered.……..”

    I would be very interested to know what kind of research he has conducted before making such remarks. If he is unable to prove his stand, would it be OK to conclude that people like him are empty pots who make lots of noises and rarely (if ever) have to say anything of substance? Let me know your thoughts about such characters. Shukriya!!

    And Ibrahim, have you ever seen a copy of Quran published/translated by Ahmadis? If so, where?, and in what language?

    #2
    I think he needs to define what 'alter' means.

    Does the color of the cover or the the size of font comes under 'alteration' also?!

    I had someone the other day objecting on the Quran I was carrying to have a blue cover. Aparently he had only seen a green & red color Quran!
    I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
    - Robert McCloskey

    Comment


      #3
      i agree with u man...i think people shouldn't make n e comments about someone's else's religion without suffiecient research on the topic...sorry!!

      ------------------
      "The devil has put a penalty on all things we enjoy in life. Either we suffer in health or we suffer in soul or we get fat."

      Comment


        #4
        Info,

        Start another thread and I will answer your question!
        I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
        - Robert McCloskey

        Comment


          #5
          I am not a spokesperson for Ibraheem, but I can take your challenge. Just answer me one simple question;

          Muslims all over the world translate the word "khatim" as the End. When something ends, it says Khatim. End of movie is khatim. That is what it means in Arabic, and that is how it is meant in Qura~n. How come Ahamdees are the only species on this planet, who interpret it as a 'stamp' and your Mirza was the one who came up with this innovation that whosoever has this stamp, has validated Prophethood!

          Khatim un Nabi means the end of Prophethood. But you people continue believing otherwise. Ist this alteration to addition to Qura~n which negates the basic belief.

          Comment


            #6
            Allah bless the Internet!

            I found an English->Arabic online-dictionary!

            zawiyaefikr: I am not a spokeperson for NYA but here please refer to the following:

            I put in the word last in the above mentioned online-dictionary and Khatam was 'not' one of the translated words!

            Then I put in the word End and it still didn't show the word 'Khatam' as the translation!

            Now, what a surprise

            I put in the wordStamp and lo' here comes the word 'khatam' in translation!!

            Just to see how accurate the Ahmadi interpretation is ... I put in the word Ring and Walaa ... again pops up the word 'Khatam'

            You can put in those words in the online dictionary yourself if you don't trust me. Or you can look at the JPGS that I extracted out to make things clear!
            I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
            - Robert McCloskey

            Comment


              #7

              NYAHMADI, INFOMAN AND ANYONE ELSE

              Before Ibrahim actually answers your queries, I will take the liberty of stating that the Qur'aan can NEVER be altered or corrupted as it has been personally protected by Allah:

              015.009 We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

              Unfortunately you have put Ibrahim in a 'catch 22' situation. If he states that it has been corrupted, then the Qur'aan will be jumped upon by Cultists such as INFOMAN and be classed as false and corruptable. Mind you he doesn't accept the Qur'aan as it stands anyway, so it doesn't really matter what he thinks!

              I'm sure Ibrahim will answer in due course on his meaning when he made the statement.

              However, what is a fact is that the Ahmedy movement has translated predominantly the ENGLISH meanings differently to what they state in ARABIC.

              Once again, I stress that the majority of ENGLISH translations and footnotes have been altered by the Ahmedies. The Arabic has also been changed, but that doesn't mean a thing as changing one Qur'aan does not constitute corruption as the Qur'aan is not only in BOOK format, but is memorised in the HEARTS by millions of Muslims.

              Fortunately for us, Ahmedies cannot enter the hearts of Muslims and alter the wordings!!

              Moving onto the actual evidence of alterations, here is the proof.

              QUR'AAN:
              That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
              Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise; (HQ 4.157-159)


              AHMEDY VERSION
              "And for their saying, We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah; whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified;
              and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but pursue only a conjecture;
              and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it. On the contrary, Allah exalted him to himself. And Allah is Mighty, Wise". (Qadiani Quran 4.158-4.159)

              QUR'AAN:
              And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
              "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things. (HQ 5.116-5.118)


              AHMEDY VERSION:
              And when ALLAH will say, `O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, `Take me and my mother for two gods beside ALLAH ?' he will answer, `Holy art THOU, I could never say that which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is Thou alone WHO art the Knower of all hidden things;
              `I said no.

              QUR'AAN:
              "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things. (HQ 5.116-5.118)


              AHMEDY VERSION:
              I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me - Worship ALLAH, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou, hast been the Watcher over them, and Thou art Witness over all things;(Qadiani Quran 5.116-5.118)

              You will note in the above ayat, Ahmedies have actually put in the word DIE, so that space is made for MIRZA to sneak in!! Very clever.


              Take your time and study.

              Comment


                #8
                NYAhmadi wrote: I would be very interested to know what kind of research he has conducted before making such remarks. If he is unable to prove his stand, would it be OK to conclude that people like him are empty pots who make lots of noises and rarely (if ever) have to say anything of substance? Let me know your thoughts about such characters. Shukriya!!
                Ibrahim says; Ah! so my post have no substance but yet it seems mind boggling to you?

                As to my research, I should know best But My Creator know me even better…got it?

                As to my remarks , I make on the basis of evidence available to me and evidence presented by reliable sources. …got it?

                NYAhmadi wrote: And Ibrahim, have you ever seen a copy of Quran published/translated by Ahmadis?

                Ibrahim says; Yes, I have one in my book shelf , published by an ahmedia group based in the Philippines

                NYAhmadi wrote: If so, where?,

                Ibrahim says; Right here in my current home town in the Philippines.

                NYAhmadi wrote: and in what language?

                Ibrahim says In Tagalog…the only one of its kind in the whole of the Philippines so far ( to my knowledge) that I have seen in this language. And I bought this copy 6 years ago from a Christian book store selling Bibles. The Christians here hate the Muslims and oppress them vehemently but yet this store was marketing this version of the Qur’an.

                It was the shock of my life and I had to buy it to check why they were promoting it, after researching on it and paying conversant Islamic teacher ( conversant in both languages) to cross reference the Arabic with the tagalog interpretations , it was confirmed beyond doubt that it was being doctored or misinterpreted in the localized language.

                This is further being reported from other sources in other countries by reseachers BUT the evidence I have with me is sufficient to warrant what I convey.


                PS: by the time you respond to this I could be on the road, hence insha Allah, will respond on my return ( may take a few days or weeks)


                Comment


                  #9
                  >>>> The Arabic has also been changed, but that doesn't mean a thing as changing one Qur'aan does not constitute corruption as the Qur'aan is not only in BOOK format, but is memorised in the HEARTS by millions of Muslims. <<<<

                  As you have worked so hard to point out the differences in the 'English Translation' can you please also provide the proof of change in the Arabic. One good way will be to post it in the IMG gallery.

                  I will personally request Pristine Bhai & Confused to let you post those images in the IMG gallery. So, how soon can you get them?

                  >>>>Once again, I stress that the majority of ENGLISH translations and footnotes have been altered by the Ahmedies.

                  So, let me get this straight that you are claiming all the other Quranic translations done by the different sects of Islam are the same, word by word ... and only Ahmadi translation is different? I can actually go to the library and get two three different published Qurans and get the translations and put them here. Deal?

                  >>>You will note in the above ayat, Ahmedies have actually put in the word DIE, <<<<

                  That's the bottom line, huh? The main stream Muslim translation is 'Thou didst take me up' and Ahmadi Muslim translation is 'Thou didst cause me to die' If you look up the Arabic here the translation of the word 'Mutawafi' is in Question! And one of the translation of the work is 'Die'

                  You are new on these boards. Please search some in the Religion forum and you will find somewhat constructive discussions on this topic between Ahmadi Muslims and others.
                  I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
                  - Robert McCloskey

                  Comment


                    #10

                    Ahmedjee

                    Ah! so we see an urdu speaking Guppie trying to teach an Arabic speaking Guppie the Arabic language using the Net Dictionary as a guide! Please get real!!!

                    Being an Ahmedy you don't need me to post any of the footnotes. Grab a copy of your Qur'aan and see the footnotes for yourself in the following ayats:

                    2:5
                    3:55-56


                    Once you've done this and thought of an excuse, get back to me.

                    In the meantime I suggest you re-evaluate your position and get ready to answer Mirzas historical background and interperatations of the Qur'aanic ayats.

                    By the way, I will use your own teachings, books and resources. Otherwise it will be waaaayyy too easy for me!

                    Looks like another statistic will be added!


                    Comment


                      #11
                      QADIYANISAM.....
                      =======================

                      ....dishounours ALLAH (SWT), the creator


                      Where can the human escape from that being in whose hands is every atom. He says: I will come seceretly like theives.

                      (Roohani Khazaa'in Page 39, Vol. 20)

                      ..claims divinity for Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.


                      I (Mirza) saw in a dream that I am God. I have belived that I am God.
                      (Rohanni Khazaa'in Page 564, Vol 5)

                      ...teaches that the door of prophethood is open, even after the final prophet Muhammad (SAW)

                      This fact is established like the day that the door of prophethood is open after prophet Muhammad (S A W)
                      (Haqeeqatun Nubuwah Page 228)


                      ...debases the greatest of all Prophets, Muhammad (SAW)

                      Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and his sahabah (RAA) used to eat cheese made by the christians, although it was well known that pig's fat was used in its making.
                      (Al Fadhal, Qadiyaan 22nd Febuary1924)

                      ..claims that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is Muhammad! the messenger of Allah (SWT).

                      ..Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelivers and merciful amoungst themselves. In this divine revelation, I have been named Muhammad and also Rasool.
                      (Roohani Khazain Page 207, Vol 18)


                      One who differentiated between me and the Mustupha has neither seen me or recognised me.
                      (Roohani Khazain Page 258-259 Vol 16)


                      ... Teaches that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is superior to Prophet Muhammad (SAW)


                      ..Muhammad has decended amungst us once again and he is more greater in status than ever before. Whosoever wants to see Muhammad (SAW) should see Ghulam Ahmad in Qadian.
                      (Badr, Qadiyan 25th october 1906)

                      ...propogates that Mirza is superior to all the Prophets

                      And Allah (SWT) is showing so many signs for me that if they were shown in the time of Noah, those people would not have drowned .
                      (Rohhani Khazain Page 575 Vol 22)

                      Yousuf of this UMMAH, i.e this humble one is greater than Israeli yousuf.


                      (Rohhani Khazain page 99 Vol 21)

                      Although many prophets have come into this world, I am no less in knowledge and recognition of ALLAH than any of them.
                      (Rohhani Khazain Page 240 Vol 18)


                      Leave the mention of Ibne Maryam (Easaa Alaihe sallam); Ghulam Ahmad is better than him.
                      (Rohhani Khazain Page 240 Vol 18)

                      ...teaches hatred towards Hazrat Easaa Alayhis sallam, one of the greatest prophets of ALLAH


                      (Jesus) had the habit of uttering obscenities and frequently using foul language.
                      (Rohhani Khazain Page 289 Vol 11)


                      It should be remembered that he (Jesus) also had top some extent the habit of lying.
                      (Rohhani Khazain Page 289 Vol 11)


                      Jesus could not portray himself as a pious man because people know him as a gluttonus alcoholic.


                      (Rohhani Khazain Page 296 Vol 10)

                      your turn brother sholay

                      ------------------
                      You (Muslims) are the best nation ever raised among the mankind: (because) you
                      advocate righteousness and FORBID EVIL, and you believe in (one) GOD (ALLAH).
                      (Sura: Alay-Imran; Ayat:110)
                      ========================
                      ***Sitaaron Pay Jo Daltay Hain Kamand!***
                      _______________________
                      Shaheen=An Eagle or A Flacon!
                      (And yes it's a MALE Shaheen ;-)
                      The ORIGINAL Falcon -
                      Tu Tundi-e-Baad-e-Mukhaalif say na ghabra ay Uqaab
                      Yeh tau chaltee hai tujhay OoNcha urRaanay kay liye

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Allah says in Quran:
                        This is a perfect Book; There is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the rightous. (2:3)

                        I believe in the above above mentioned ayat! Do you? Quran is a guidance for those who are righteous, not those who have Arabic as their native language! If you can prove it otherwise ... please bring forward your argument!

                        If you have such power over the Arabic Literature, please explain the meaning of words. And please do give refrences as I did!

                        Also please state if you don't consider online references to be valid?! Or was that the online-dictionary site was not trust worthy. Any sepefic reason?!

                        >>>Being an Ahmedy you don't need me to post any of the footnotes. Grab a copy of your Qur'aan and see the footnotes for yourself in the following ayats:<<<<

                        So now its footnotes and not Arabic that has changed? But you previously wrote, and I quote:
                        >>>>The Arabic has also been changed,<<<<

                        Are you backing out of your claim that easily?

                        And which footnote number are you referring to in which translation of the Quran? The translation in different languages are done by different people, and they gave footnotes according to their understanding! Which language's footnotes are you talking about? Urdu? English? Spanish? French?

                        >>>In the meantime I suggest you re-evaluate your position and get ready to answer Mirzas historical background and interperatations of the Qur'aanic ayats.<<<

                        So you can't discuss the Quranic references or arguments and would rather like to go the other way? Most others do the same cos its easy to copy/paste (as Shaheen did) from websites then to actually do some research!

                        Either way its fine, please do pose your question(s) but please post those in a different thread. Answer the questions related to 'alteration' in this thread only!

                        Earlier too in this forum there have been threads that were closed because of foul language and lengthy copy/pastes, with discussions going no where. I suggest, encourage and request that you don't go that route.

                        When you do pose a question, do it in a humanly decent manner and a response will be given to you!

                        p.s: My native language is not Urdu ... its Punjabi! You have been mistaken.
                        I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
                        - Robert McCloskey

                        Comment


                          #13
                          >>>So you can't discuss the Quranic references or arguments and would rather like to go the other way? Most others do the same cos its easy to copy/paste (as Shaheen did) from websites then to actually do some research! <<<

                          For a moment, I agree with you and say that I did not do any research and copy\pasted the stuff (as you assumed, typical of your people inherited from Ghulam Ahmed). With the same token, I have a right to ask you to do a research yourself and prove the above mentioned wrong if you can.... It's a challenge to all of you Ahmadies/Qadiyanies/lahories/Mirzaies etc. etc.

                          Wama Alaina Illal Balagh-ul-Mubeen
                          Lakum denokum walay yadeen

                          Karkun:
                          Khatm-e-Nubuwat, Karachi
                          Tanzeem-e-Islami, North America (TINA)
                          Anjuman Khuddam-ul-Quran, Pakistan
                          Tehreek-e-Khilafat Pakistan

                          ------------------
                          You (Muslims) are the best nation ever raised among the mankind: (because) you
                          advocate righteousness and FORBID EVIL, and you believe in (one) GOD (ALLAH).
                          (Sura: Alay-Imran; Ayat:110)
                          ========================
                          ***Sitaaron Pay Jo Daltay Hain Kamand!***
                          _______________________
                          Shaheen=An Eagle or A Flacon!
                          (And yes it's a MALE Shaheen ;-)
                          The ORIGINAL Falcon -
                          Tu Tundi-e-Baad-e-Mukhaalif say na ghabra ay Uqaab
                          Yeh tau chaltee hai tujhay OoNcha urRaanay kay liye

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Before we proceed further into this discussion. Can anyone from Ahmedi sect clarify, what the stature of Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani is in Islam according to their beliefs?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Ibrahim Paray! Kamusta? I have spent plenty of time in the Philippines myself working at the ADB, and all I can tell you is that your accusations (that’s what I call it) are totally baseless and since you have no clue about what exactly was doctored (as you put it) I don’t think that we will take you seriously. If any particular meaning or alternation indeed occurred, why don’t you tell everyone what it is? Have a nice trip wherever you are going, but I hope you come back with either an apology or some other clever face saving remarks.

                              Comment

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