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    Status of Women in Islam

    http://www.markazdawa.org/English/ma...107/status.htm

    Status of Women in Islam

    Syeda Dania Shah

    W hen studying the fundamental rights and obligations of women in Islam it must be pointed out at the very outset that, despite the capacity of Muslim law to adapt itself and to develop according to circumstances, there will be no question of recognizing the extreme liberty which a woman enjoys today in fact and in practice, in certain sections of the social life, both in the capitalist and the communist West. Islam demands that a woman should remain a responsible and reasonable being. It does not expect her to become either an angel or a demon.

    If one wants to compare and contrast a woman's position according to Islam with that according to other religions and civilizations or legal systems, one should take into consideration all the facts, and not merely isolated practices. The aim of this essay is to answer the questions such as the status of a woman in society and Islam's position regarding it and that how Islam has contributed towards the restoration of a woman's dignity, honour and rights.

    Women before Islam:

    The plight and condition of women before the emergence of Islam was very miserable. In Roman, Indian and other civilizations of the world women were always subjugated to all kinds of humiliations and hardships. They were buried alive and were looked upon as a bad omen. They were considered profitable goods just like any cattle or horse. This condition of women prevailed even in the pre-Islamic Arab.

    Women in Roman Society:

    A Roman wife was described by a historian as a person incapable of doing or acting anything according to her own individual taste, a person continually under the tutelage and guardianship of her husband.

    In the Encyclopedia Britannica we find that the legal status of women in the Roman society was pitiable.

    In roman law a woman was ever completely dependent upon men. If married she and her property passed into her husband's hands. The wife was the purchased property of her husband and like a slave acquired only for his benefit. A woman could not hold any civil or public office, could not be a witness, surety, tutor, or curator; she could not adopt or be adopted, or make will or contract.

    Women in Persian Society:

    There was no moral value and respect of a woman. There was no concept of mother, daughter, sister and wife. Women were simply treated as objects for pleasure.

    Women in Christianity:

    In ancient Christian society and even today woman is called devil's gateway as she was the one who under the influence of Satan or devil forced Adam to eat the forbidden fruit and thus destroyed the God's image i.e. man.

    According to Encyclopedia Biblica (1902-vol3):

    "To betroth a wife to oneself meant simply to acquire possession of her by payment of the purchase money, the betrothed is a girl for whom the purchase money has been paid."

    Women's consent regarding marriage was unnecessary and as to the right of divorce Encyclopedia Biblica states, "The woman being man's property, his right to divorce her follows as a matter of course."

    Women in Hinduism:

    It is stated in "Muno Samarti" that telling lies is a personal quality of a woman."

    At another place it is written: "It is important for a woman to be in the possession of her father in her childhood, to be possessed by her husband in her youth and after the death of husband, and to be possessed by her sons."

    Women were not allowed to remarry. Sati or the burning of the widowed woman with her dead husband was a common practice and it is still observed in certain parts of India. Similarly female children were burned alive. In Encyclopedia Britannica it is stated:

    "In India, subjection was a cardinal principle. Day and night women must be held by their protectors in a state of dependence, says Manu. The rule of inheritance was such that descent was traced through males to the exclusion of females."

    Women in Islam:

    With the emergence of Islam in Arab, the women occupied a new status, a status of dignity, honour and respect for them.

    Special status was given to women as mothers. Abu Hurairah related that a man asked Holy Prophetr: Who is most worthy of my good treatment? He answered: Your Mother. The man asked: Who comes next? And he answered: Your mother. The man then asked again: Who comes next? And he answered: Your mother. The man then inquired a fourth time, and he answered: Your father. (Bukhari , Muslim)

    Islam also admonished the practice of female infanticide and restored the respect and dignity of female children. It comes in Surah Nahl 58,59:

    "When the news is brought to them of the birth of a female (child), his face darkens and he is filled with inward grief. With shame does he hide himself from his people, because of the bad news he has heard, shall he retain it on (sufferance and) contempt, or bury it in sand? Allah! What an evil choice they decide on."

    It was once stated by the Holy Prophet r that: "Any one who has daughters and is kind to them will find that on the Day of Judgement, they will serve as a shield for him against Hell. (Bukhari, Muslim)

    Islam encourages each individual to marry and establish a home. Polygamy is allowed but only under certain conditions. The Quran states:

    "Marry women of your choice, two or three or four but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (a captive) that your right hand possesses: thus it is more likely that you shall not do injustice to them. (Nisa: 4)

    Islam also enjoins that a wife and husband should have the most intimate and loving relationship. The Quran states: "They are your garment, and you are their garment. (Baqarah: 187)

    Abu Hurairah reported that the Holy Prophetr said:

    "A previously married woman shall not be married till she gives her consent, nor a virgin be married till her consent is sought. It was asked how her consent should be sought. The Prophetr said: if she remains silent then this is her consent, if she declines, there shall be no compulsion on her to marry. (Bukahri, Muslim)

    Divorce is a disliked act in Islam. It is allowed only if it is impossible to live together. "A divorce is only permissible twice. After that the parties should either hold together on equitable terms or separate with kindness. (Baqarah: 229)

    Islam gives women every opportunity to have rights over men as men have rights over them. The Quran thus states: "And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them, and men are a degree above them."

    Islam also decreed a right of which woman was deprived both before Islam and after it, the right of independent ownership. According to Islamic Law:

    "Woman's right to her money, real estate, or other properties is fully acknowledged. This right undergoes no change whether she is single or married. She retains her full rights to buy, sell, mortgage or lease any or all her properties. It is nowhere suggested in the law that a woman is a minor simply because she is a female."

    To put a long story short, Islam has given women a new status, a status of dignity, honour and respect. Islam believes in developing spiritual as well as physical and wordily aspects of one's personality. This is the basic reason why Muslim women ore more peaceful and contended as compared to non-Muslim women. They are capable of fulfilling their duties for whatever the role assigned to them. They are capable of both taking care of their homes and doing their jobs without neglecting the other one. They always take the medium path. Islam which is not just a religion but a complete way of life, provides complete guidance to women in personal as well as social life. It provides them with human dignity, equality and justice and makes them responsible and reasonable human beings.





    #2
    Quoting from Lashkar-e-Taiba site, eh Kabir?

    Had you been an Indian Muslim, you wouldn't have referred to Let defined "Muno Samarti" (God knows what it is)...

    As you're in it, please note all religions including Islam, Hinduism, Christianity have at one point or other trample the rights of females. So no need to indulge in lies to prop up a false image.

    No need to take lectures from me, read thro' the articles of the celebrated HR activist Asma Jehangir and you'll find how hollow the claims are.

    However Islam has certainly given the women some fundamental rights that were unthinkable at that time. But it will be foolish to compare the pre-Islamic Arabian days with modern world.

    Other religions like Hinduism which you despise so much had also given many rights to women. For that you have to study them impartially rather than viewing them thro' LeT's looking glass.


    [This message has been edited by Amitayus (edited August 06, 2001).]

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Amitayus:
      Quoting from Lashkar-e-Taiba site, eh Kabir?

      Had you been an Indian Muslim, you wouldn't have referred to Let defined "Muno Samarti" (God knows what it is)...

      As you're in it, please note all religions including Islam, Hinduism, Christianity have at one point or other trample the rights of females. So no need to indulge in lies to prop up a false image.

      No need to take lectures from me, read thro' the articles of the celebrated HR activist Asma Jehangir and you'll find how hollow the claims are.

      However Islam has certainly given the women some fundamental rights that were unthinkable at that time. But it will be foolish to compare the pre-Islamic Arabian days with modern world.

      Other religions like Hinduism which you despise so much had also given many rights to women. For that you have to study them impartially rather than viewing them thro' LeT's looking glass.


      [This message has been edited by Amitayus (edited August 06, 2001).]

      Amita,

      We are talking about Islam not Khomini, LeT, you or me. We are discussing what Islam says not an individuals acts.

      Comment


        #4
        Is there any person or organization of India including the judiciary or the law and order system, recommend/enforce tenets of Manu smriti?

        Manu smriti was a book written 5000 years ago for the people who lived 5000 years ago.
        For the people of 2001, we use a modifiable constitution.

        On the other hand, at the present times, Quranic verses are practiced by choice (or enforced by force) in various parts of the world.

        You can't compare and contrast the too.

        Quranic commandments ARE practiced/enforced. The unacceptable practices of Manu Smriti WERE practiced/enforced.

        I think there is a subtle difference between the two.

        Nobody in India can publicly enforce an oppressive idealogy on a large scale and get away with it. The media will just rip him/her apart.

        Accepted, such practices are not eradicated, but it has long been made illegal and like every other system in India, Changes are very slow, but steady.

        Comment


          #5
          Men are justices (Qawam) over women, because Allh has given superiority to one (men) over the other (women), and because men spend their wealth. Therefore the righteous women are obedient and behind the husband guard their rights in the protection and observation of Allh. And as for those women from whom you have fear of ill conduct advise them, stay away from them in the bed rooms and beat (them) , then if they become your obedient then do not seek excuses to beat them for nothing, be certain that above Allh is Present WHO is Supreme and Great.

          Translation - Surah "An-Nis' - Women" - (Madanni - 4th Surah) Chapter 5


          "Islam Permits Men to beat Women!"

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by kumarakn:
            Men are justices (Qawam) over women, because Allh has given superiority to one (men) over the other (women), and because men spend their wealth. Therefore the righteous women are obedient and behind the husband guard their rights in the protection and observation of Allh. And as for those women from whom you have fear of ill conduct advise them, stay away from them in the bed rooms and beat (them) , then if they become your obedient then do not seek excuses to beat them for nothing, be certain that above Allh is Present WHO is Supreme and Great.

            Translation - Surah "An-Nis' - Women" - (Madanni - 4th Surah) Chapter 5

            "Islam Permits Men to beat Women!"
            and you keep beating on the crap you learnt from some other site who doesn't know the abc of Islam. Do you know the reason or context of this ayat? Just do a research on your own, don't ask me, I might be biased.

            ------------------
            We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by kumarakn:
              Men are justices (Qawam) over women, because Allh has given superiority to one (men) over the other (women), and because men spend their wealth. Therefore the righteous women are obedient and behind the husband guard their rights in the protection and observation of Allh. And as for those women from whom you have fear of ill conduct advise them, stay away from them in the bed rooms and beat (them) , then if they become your obedient then do not seek excuses to beat them for nothing, be certain that above Allh is Present WHO is Supreme and Great.

              Translation - Surah "An-Nis' - Women" - (Madanni - 4th Surah) Chapter 5


              "Islam Permits Men to beat Women!"

              If u gona quote out of context suras no one will bother to reply. Quote the whole ayat and u will get your answer.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Changez_like:
                and you keep beating on the crap you learnt from some other site who doesn't know the abc of Islam. Do you know the reason or context of this ayat? Just do a research on your own, don't ask me, I might be biased.

                Well said Changez Khan we might be biased.

                Comment


                  #9
                  If according to Islam females occupy an inferior position vis-a-vis males, have no rights whatsoever, are not considered or treated any better than property, I wonder why female converts to Islam outnumber their male counterparts - a Time article titled, "Why British Women are turning to Islam," stated that, despite Islam's negative image, it was "ironic that most British converts should be women.... In the United States, women converts outnumber men by four to one, and in Britain make up the bulk of the estimated 10,000 to 20,000 converts..."

                  We each have our very different opinions, especially regarding such a sensitive issue as religion. This does not necessarily mean that we have to stoop so low as to degrade each other's religion. I have nothing against Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, Sikhs, etc. - the majority of my friends are non-Muslims. Naturally I respect that their religion is as dear to them as mine is to myself. Among issues such as this, different opinions should always be welcome. I truly don't want to heighten any further animosity on this thread but, as a Muslim female, to come across a statement such as 'Islam subordinates women', I feel compelled to clarify that I'm afraid this is FAR from being accurate. If nothing else, perhaps the fact that, in the US, female converts to Islam outnumber male converts by 4 to 1 should serve as sufficient proof?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Nadia_H:
                    If according to Islam females occupy an inferior position vis-a-vis males, have no rights whatsoever, are not considered or treated any better than property, I wonder why female converts to Islam outnumber their male counterparts - a Time article titled, "Why British Women are turning to Islam," stated that, despite Islam's negative image, it was "ironic that most British converts should be women.... In the United States, women converts outnumber men by four to one, and in Britain make up the bulk of the estimated 10,000 to 20,000 converts..."

                    We each have our very different opinions, especially regarding such a sensitive issue as religion. This does not necessarily mean that we have to stoop so low as to degrade each other's religion. I have nothing against Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, Sikhs, etc. - the majority of my friends are non-Muslims. Naturally I respect that their religion is as dear to them as mine is to myself. Among issues such as this, different opinions should always be welcome. I truly don't want to heighten any further animosity on this thread but, as a Muslim female, to come across a statement such as 'Islam subordinates women', I feel compelled to clarify that I'm afraid this is FAR from being accurate. If nothing else, perhaps the fact that, in the US, female converts to Islam outnumber male converts by 4 to 1 should serve as sufficient proof?
                    My brothers EX wife even after divorce is a muslima who converted from christianity..


                    [This message has been edited by Abdali (edited August 06, 2001).]

                    Comment


                      #11
                      indeed women converts outnumber the male converts 4:1. Please refer to the following website. http://thetruereligion.org/converts.htm

                      This has links to webpages of some of the converted muslims. Very interesting.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        hERE IS THE sITE TO GOTO,.....:
                        >
                        > http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrel...ransunnah.html
                        >
                        >

                        In Islam there is absolutely no difference between men and women as far as their relationship to Allah is concerned, as both are promised the same reward for good conduct and the same punishment for evil conduct. The Qur'an says:
                        And for women are rights over men similar to those of men over women. (2:226)
                        The Qur'an, in addressing the believers, often uses the expression,'believing men and women' to emphasize the equality of men and women in regard to their respective duties, rights, virtues and merits.
                        It says:
                        For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise, for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward. (33:35)
                        This clearly contradicts the assertion of the Christian Fathers that women do not possess souls and that they will exist as sexless beings in the next life. The Qur'an says that women have souls in exactly the same way as men and will enter Paradise if they do good :
                        Enter into Paradise, you and your wives, with delight. (43:70)
                        Who so does that which is right, and believes, whether male or female, him or her will We quicken to happy life. (16:97)
                        The Qur'an admonishes those men who oppress or ill-treat women:
                        O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good. (4:19)
                        Considering the fact that before the advent of Islam the pagan Arabs used to bury their female children alive, make women dance naked in the vicinity of the Ka'ba during their annual fairs, and treat women as mere chattels and objects of sexual pleasure possessing no rights or position whatsoever, these teachings of the Noble Qur'an were revolutionary. Unlike other religions, which regarded women as being possessed of inherent sin and wickedness and men as being possessed of inherent virtue and nobility, Islam regards men and women as being of the same essence created from a single soul. The Qur'an declares:
                        O mankind! Reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, his mate, and from this pair scattered (like seeds) countless men and women. Reverence Allah, through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and reverence the wombs (that bore you); for Allah ever watches over you. (4:1)
                        The Prophet of Islam (peace be upon him) said, "Women are the twin halves of men." The Qur'an emphasizes the essential unity of men and women in a most beautiful simile:
                        They (your wives) are your garment and you are a garment for them. (2:187)
                        Just as a garment hides our nakedness, so do husband and wife, by entering into the relationship of marriage, secure each other's chastity. The garment gives comfort to the body; so does the husband find comfort in his wife's company and she in his. "The garment is the grace, the beauty, the embellishment of the body, so too are wives to their husbands as their husbands are to them." Islam does not consider woman "an instrument of the Devil", but rather the Qur'an calls her muhsana - a fortress against Satan because a good woman, by marrying a man, helps him keep to the path of rectitude in his life. It is for this reason that marriage was considered by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as a most virtuous act. He said: "When a man marries, he has completed one half of his religion." He enjoined matrimony on Muslims by saying: "Marriage is part of my way and whoever keeps away from my way is not from me (i.e. is not my follower)." The Qur'an has given the raison d'tre of marriage in the following words:
                        And among His signs is this, that He has created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquillity with them; and He has put love and mercy between you. Verily in that are signs for those who reflect. (30:21)
                        The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was full of praise for virtuous and chaste women. He said:
                        "The world and all things in the world are precious but the most precious thing in the world is a virtuous woman. He once told the future khalif, 'Umar: "Shall I not inform you about the best treasure a man can hoard? It is a virtuous wife who pleases him whenever he looks towards her, and who guards herself when he is absent from her."
                        On other occasions the Prophet said:
                        "The best property a man can have is a remembering tongue (about Allah), a grateful heart and a believing wife who helps him in his faith." And again: "The world, the whole of it, is a commodity and the best of the commodities of the world is a virtuous wife."
                        Before the advent of Islam women were often treated worse than animals. The Prophet wanted to put a stop to all cruelties to women. He preached kindness towards them. He told the Muslims: "Fear Allah in respect of women." And: "The best of you are they who behave best to their wives." And: "A Muslim must not hate his wife, and if he be displeased with one bad quality in her, let him be pleased with one that is good." And:"The more civil and kind a Muslim is to his wife, the more perfect in faith he is."
                        The Prophet (peace be upon him) was most emphatic in enjoining upon Muslims to be kind to their women when he delivered his famous khutba on the Mount of Mercy at Arafat in the presence of one hundred and twenty-four thousand of his Companions who had gathered there for the Hajj al-Wada (Farewell Pilgrimage). In it he ordered those present, and through them all those Muslims who were to come later, to be respectful and kind towards women. He said:

                        "Fear Allah regarding women. Verily you have married them with the trust of Allah, and made their bodies lawful with the word of Allah. You have got (rights) over them, and they have got (rights) over you in respect of their food and clothing according to your means."
                        In Islam a woman is a completely independent personality. She can make any contract or bequest in her own name. She is entitled to inherit in her position as mother, as wife, as sister and as daughter. She has perfect liberty to choose her husband. The pagan society of pre-Islamic Arabia had an irrational prejudice against their female children whom they used to bury alive. The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) was totally opposed to this practice. He showed them that supporting their female children would act as a screen for them against the fire of Hell:
                        It is narrated by the Prophet's wife, 'A'isha, that a woman entered her house with two of her daughters. She asked for charity but 'A'isha could not find anything except a date, which was given to her. The woman divided it between her two daughters and did not eat any herself. Then she got up and left. When the Prophet (peace be upon him) came to the house, 'A'isha told him about what had happened and he declared that when the woman was brought to account (on the Day of Judgment) about her two daughters they would act as a screen for her from the fires of Hell.
                        The worst calamity for a woman is when her husband passes away and, as a widow, the responsibility of maintaining the children falls upon her. In the Eastern World, where a woman does not always go out to earn her living, the problems of widowhood are indescribable. The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) upheld the cause of widows. Most of his wives were widows. In an age when widows were rarely permitted to remarry, the Prophet encouraged his followers to marry them. He was always ready to help widows and exhorted his followers to do the same. Abu Hurairah reported that the Prophet said: "One who makes efforts (to help) the widow or a poor person is like a mujahid (warrior) in the path of Allah, or like one who stands up for prayers in the night and fasts in the day."
                        Woman as mother commands great respect in Islam. The Noble Qur'an speaks of the rights of the mother in a number of verses. It enjoins Muslims to show respect to their mothers and serve them well even if they are still unbelievers. The Prophet states emphatically that the rights of the mother are paramount. Abu Hurairah reported that a man came to the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) and asked: "O Messenger of Allah, who is the person who has the greatest right on me with regards to kindness and attention?" He replied, "Your mother." "Then who?" He replied, "Your mother." "Then who?" He replied, "Your mother." "Then who?" He replied, "Your father."
                        In another tradition, the Prophet advised a believer not to join the war against the Quraish in defense of Islam, but to look after his mother, saying that his service to his mother would be a cause of his salvation. Mu'awiyah, the son of Jahimah, reported that Jahimah came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said, " Messenger of Allah! I want to join the fighting (in the path of Allah) and I have come to seek your advice." He said, "Then remain in your mother's service, because Paradise is under her feet."

                        "Among my followers the best of men are those who are best to their wives, and the best of women are those who are best to their husbands. To each of such women is set down a reward equivalent to the reward of a thousand martyrs. Among my followers, again, the best of women are those who assist their husbands in their work, and love them dearly for everything, save what is a transgression of Allah's laws."
                        Once Mu'awiyah asked the Prophet (peace be upon him), "What are the rights that a wife has over her husband?" The Prophet replied, " Feed her when you take your food, give her clothes to wear when you wear clothes, refrain from giving her a slap on the face or abusing her, and do not separate from your wife, except within the house." Once a woman came to the Prophet with a complaint against her husband. He told her: "There is no woman who removes something to replace it in its proper place, with a view to tidying her husband's house, but that Allah sets it down as a virtue for her. Nor is there a man who walks with his wife hand-in-hand, but that Allah sets it down as a virtue for him; and if he puts his arm round her shoulder in love, his virtue is increased tenfold." Once he was heard praising the women of the tribe of Quraish, "...because they are the kindest to their children while they are infants and because they keep a careful watch over the belongings of their husbands."


                        [This message has been edited by TARIQ786USA (edited August 06, 2001).]
                        °º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`° ¤ø,¸°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤ ºÂ°`°º¤ø,¸,¸¸,ø¤º °`°º¤ø,¸,¸¸,ø¤º° ºÂ¤Ã¸



                        A Faith that cannot survive collision with the truth is not worth many regrets.

                        Comment


                          #13

                          I don't think Hinduism of all the Faiths in the world is in a position to comment about womens rights.

                          Can Kumar be kind enough to educate us all on when Hinduism gave females rights of any type.

                          Don't be surprised to see the year 19.., 19.., 19.., 19.., etc , etc, pop up in all the answers.!


                          We await!

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Tariq well done! This should shut up the infidels.

                            [This message has been edited by Astronut (edited August 06, 2001).]

                            Comment


                              #15
                              [QUOTE]Originally posted by kumarakn:
                              Is there any person or organization of India including the judiciary or the law and order system, recommend/enforce tenets of Manu smriti?

                              Ibrahim says; Yes! all facets of life in a pious hindu society is confined to the laws of Manu smrti and is practiced widely in various levels. In fact Classical Hinduism has three distinct strands, or paths. These paths are pursued during a succession of lives with a general goal for the individual to be released from their karmic existence. The three paths are named Karmamarga (the Way of Action), Jnanamarga (the Way of Knowledge) and Bhaktimarga (the Way of Devotion). Each Path, or Way, has a major book associated with it.

                              Karmamarga - The Manavadharmasastra, or the Laws of Manu, written between 200 BCE and 200 CE. The Laws of Manu are based on earlier Vedic and Hindu books, generally referred to as the Sutras, of which Manu's is the most important. The Sutras date back to about 600 BCE. The Laws of Manu lay out the Hindu caste system, describe the stages of life, and the rounds of life.

                              Jnanamarga - The Upanishads developed between 600 BCE and 200 BCE. The Upanishads lay out the secrete, esoteric knowledge of Hinduism.

                              Bhaktimarga - The Bhagavadgita is mostly concerned with tendencies within Hinduism toward monotheism. It was written about 200 BCE.

                              Hence Manu Laws ( Prohetic laws the 1st manu being Prohet Adam and the 7th Manu being propget Noah (peace be upon them all) are fundamental for Brahmins)


                              kumarakn: Manu smriti was a book written 5000 years ago for the people who lived 5000 years ago. For the people of 2001, we use a modifiable constitution.


                              Ibrahim says; This is current hindu scam used by sudras to hide their shame. A Brahmin will NEVER discount his teachings But sudras had always been exempted from even touching the Vedas by Manu s laws , as such they in wanting to remain as hindus have repeatedly injected this dubious notions that manu smrti is book written 5000 year ago ( BTW there are No books in Hinduism that were written 5000 years ago) and not applicable to current hindus.

                              kumarakn: On the other hand, at the present times, Quranic verses are practiced by choice (or enforced by force) in various parts of the world. You can't compare and contrast the too.

                              Ibrahim says; Just because you were misled to believe manu smrti does not apply to you does not mean Brahmins do not follow them on the other hand why would they want a sudra to follow them? This is like a Muslim asking a hindu to follow the Qurangot it?

                              kumarakn: Quranic commandments ARE practiced/enforced. The unacceptable practices of Manu Smriti WERE practiced/enforced. I think there is a subtle difference between the two.


                              Ibrahim says; man I think you must be from outer space for all hindus especially woman are subject to manu laws in India. Even till this day Hinduism does not allow their women to remarry and widows are to confine themselves to a state of sorrow till they die. (This is the option they were given according to manu smrti)

                              kumarakn: Nobody in India can publicly enforce an oppressive idealogy on a large scale and get away with it. The media will just rip him/her apart.

                              Ibrahim says; when the entire country has been subject to these laws and has become the norm why would it look or sound oppressive to the people? The notion that media is an independent body run by aliens is an illusion If not a deception for the deceivers .

                              kumarakn: Accepted, such practices are not eradicated, but it has long been made illegal and like every other system in India, Changes are very slow, but steady

                              Ibrahim says; hey pal! The British made some of this teachings illegal some 50 years back that does not mean the sacred teachings dating 1000 years ago have been discarded ONLY it is now practiced under the table where it had been made illegal. .


                              Devoted to Truth
                              Ibrahim

                              Many know what they are fleeing from , But not what they are in search of.



                              [This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited August 06, 2001).]

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