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    The Infallibility of the Prophets

    Now before I start I must remind you 2 things

    1.No swearing, mud-slinging, or sarcastic remarks!

    2. This debate was carried out by our 8th Imam so it has a very deep meaning. so you have to read it twice(maybe more) to get the full meaning. happy reading


    Holy Imam(A.S.) Debates Ali ibn al-Jahm

    The Holy Imam (A.S.) conducted a very magnificent debate with Ali al-Jahm dealing with the infallibility of prophets in which he explained in a very beautiful way the actual meaning of some verses which may on the surface give the impression to the contrary.

    Interpreting the Holy Qur'an According to One's Opinion

    The Holy Imam (A.S.) started his discussion with Ali ibn al-Jahm by criticizing him and those who interpreted the Book of God according to their own viewpoint, stating that he and those have to refer to those whom God endowed with the faculty of knowledge and understanding in order to learn the actual and accurate interpretation of its verses according to the sacred verse which says, "And none knows its interpretation except God and those deeply grounded in knowledge."

    (Sura Al-Imran,Ayah 7)

    Interpreting Verses Whose Superficial Meaning Suggests Prophet's Fallibility

    Then the Holy Imam (A.S.) started explaining the verses whose superficial meaning indicates the fallibility of and possibility of sinning by prophets. He indicated that Adam's transgression took place while he was in Paradise, not on earth, and the infallibility in question is earthly, and that he did not commit any act as long as he lived on earth which contradicted his infallibility as proven by the sacred verse:

    "God did indeed choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of Imran above all people."(Sura Al-Imran,Ayat 33)

    As regarding the verse which states:

    "And remember Zun-nun when he departed in wrath; he imagined that We had no power over him, but he cried through the depths of darkness, `There is no god but Thou! Glory to Thee; I was indeed wrong,'"(Sura Al-Anbiya,Ayat 87)

    what is meant by "he imagined that We had no power over him" is that he realized that God was not going to sustain him." Had he thought that God was unable to overpower him, he would have then committed kufr (disbelief) and he would have also committed 'isyan, transgression.As regarding the verse

    "And (with passion) did she desire him, and he would have desired her,"(Sura Yusuf,Ayat 24)

    the case regarding what the wife of al-'Aziz wanted, and what Yousuf (A.S.) desired to do, are two different things, for she wanted to commit a sin while he desired to kill her if she forced him; therefore, God saved him from the deed of killing her and its terrible consequences, and saved her from her own wishful desire to commit a sin.

    As regarding David, his statement that the defendant had committed injustice by asking for the goat, it was an error only within the framework of the case, and it took place before he had asked the defendant about his defense against the plaintiff's claim, and it is not a transgression, for God corrected for him his decision by bringing him the example of the two kings.

    As regarding his marriage with the widow of Oorya, which was regarded by people at that time as a sin and criticized him for it, it was done for the sake of effecting a legislative interest whereby David wanted to shatter the then prevalent custom of a widow not getting married after the death of her husband. It is similar to what happened to the Holy Prophet(S.A.W.) with Zainab daughter of Jahsh, wife of Zayd ibn Haritha who had been adopted by the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.), for the Holy Prophet(S.A.W.), by marrying Zainab after granting her divorce from Zayd, wanted to shatter the pre-Islamic custom whereby a man would not be permitted to marry the former wife of someone he had adopted as is clear in the text of the Holy Qur'an. The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) was apprehensive of the criticism of the hypocrites of his action, so the Almighty addressed him by saying,

    "Do not fear people; it is more fitting that you should fear God,"(Sura Al-Ahzab, Ayat 37)

    since it was God Who ordered him to marry her as we understand from the verse,

    "Then when Zayd had dissolved (his marriage) with her, with the necessary (formality), We joined her in marriage to thee in order that (henceforth) there may be no difficulty to the believers in (the matter of) marrying the wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have dissolved with the necessary (formality, their marriage) with them, and God's command must be fulfilled."(Sura Al-Ahzab,Ayat 37)

    by providing such glorious knowledge of the exegesis of sacred Qur'anic verses, and by giving such honest interpretations which safeguard the integrity of the context, the Holy Imam (A.S.) used to dispel the unusual confusion of those who did not have a deep actual understanding of the Glorious Book of God.

    Now, Allah wants all men to follow his law and cdoe!Why would he send an imperfect soul to get everyone to become a ferfect soul?

    #2

    So how do you explain the following ayat:

    035.045 If Allah were to punish men according to what they deserve. He would not leave on the back of the (earth) a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: when their Term expires, verily Allah has in His sight all His Servants.


    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by sholay:

      So how do you explain the following ayat:
      035.045 If Allah were to punish men according to what they deserve. He would not leave on the back of the (earth) a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: when their Term expires, verily Allah has in His sight all His Servants.
      This Ayaht is talking about ALL the PEOPLE or the SINNER?

      Comment


        #4
        What about Hazrat Moosa (AH)'s killing of a person. Though Hazrat Moosa (AH) didn't desire to kill him, but a person was killed by the very hand of him..... ??? killing is a sin, ain't it?

        ------------------
        We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Changez_like:
          What about Hazrat Moosa (AH)'s killing of a person. Though Hazrat Moosa (AH) didn't desire to kill him, but a person was killed by the very hand of him..... ??? killing is a sin, ain't it?
          If Killing is a Sin then Jihad should not be allowed.

          From Al-Quran, what I understand is that Prophet Musa was trying to stop a man that was beating his follower (from Bani Israel). In the process that first man got killed.

          Correct me if I am wrong.

          Comment


            #6
            [quote]Originally posted by babydoll:
            [b]
            Originally posted by Changez_like:
            What about Hazrat Moosa (AH)'s killing of a person. Though Hazrat Moosa (AH) didn't desire to kill him, but a person was killed by the very hand of him..... ??? killing is a sin, ain't it?
            Baby doll said:

            If Killing is a Sin then Jihad should not be allowed.

            From Al-Quran, what I understand is that Prophet Musa was trying to stop a man that was beating his follower (from Bani Israel). In the process that first man got killed.

            Correct me if I am wrong.
            Yes, did you know the full story, what was this fight for? Religion??? I don't think it was for that. Hazrat Moosa (AH) was just defending or helping his follower, I agree, but the result is...... a man got killed, right? it was not like 'cleaning a gun and it suddenly fired'.

            Killing is not the prime reason in jihad. If someone fights you and not accept Islam or obedience, then you fight him (if you were referring to the fighting jihad only).

            You don't go around killing people in name of jihad, otherwise all these people like Lashkar-e-tayyaba, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, Sipah-e-Mohammad, Sunni Tehrik etc would be right in their claims for "jihad".

            ------------------
            We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

            [This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited August 09, 2001).]

            Comment


              #7

              Whether the man got killed intentionally or not, still confirms that the conception of Infallibility is manmade.

              Hazrat Musa AS did not kill for religion, but killed nevertheless. Secondly, Hazrat Musa AS was also very 'hot tempered'. Where does anger generate from?

              These people were the Custodians of Truth. So how can anyone logically argue for someone who carries a lower status than the Custodians!

              Anyway, like I have stated in previous threads. The above ayat that no supporter of Infallibility can answer, confirms that every living creature is FALLIBLE and is only pardoned by ALLAH!

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Changez_like:
                Yes, did you know the full story, what was this fight for? Religion??? I don't think it was for that.
                I am not sure how correct is my version of the story, pls feel free to add. That man from Bani Israel was a slave and the man oppressing him was one of soldier of Pharaoh. The soldier was beating the slave for some mistake, seriously.

                Hazrat Moosa (AH) was just defending or helping his follower, I agree, but the result is...... a man got killed, right? it was not like 'cleaning a gun and it suddenly fired'.
                Yes. But prophet Musa couldn’t let an innocence man died. That would be a crime. He was trying to stop the fight, and the man died. Yes, A man got killed.

                Killing is not the prime reason in jihad. If someone fights you and not accept Islam or obedience, then you fight him (if you were referring to the fighting jihad only).
                Of Course. Neither Prophet Musa went out of his way to kill the soldier of Pharaoh. He stumbles upon this incident where the slave was being beaten.

                You don't go around killing people in name of jihad, otherwise all these people like Lashkar-e-tayyaba, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, Sipah-e-Mohammad, Sunni Tehrik etc would be right in their claims for "jihad".
                True.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by sholay:

                  Whether the man got killed intentionally or not, still confirms that the conception of Infallibility is manmade.

                  Hazrat Musa AS did not kill for religion, but killed nevertheless. Secondly, Hazrat Musa AS was also very 'hot tempered'. Where does anger generate from?

                  These people were the Custodians of Truth. So how can anyone logically argue for someone who carries a lower status than the Custodians!

                  Anyway, like I have stated in previous threads. The above ayat that no supporter of Infallibility can answer, confirms that every living creature is FALLIBLE and is only pardoned by ALLAH!

                  again hot tempered is a quality and or drawback!

                  Do you mean prophets aren't allowed to have personalities?

                  Again allah made these men to guide men to truth. would you follow an imperfect man?

                  We follow islam as it is perfect!!now if an imperfect brought a perfect religion down it would be corrupted as the man can make mistakes!! Now if prophet was not perfect then the quran has mistakes!! Its all logic!!

                  Now if a man is trying to kill your fellow you would try to do anythung that will stop the man from killing him!! That includes Killing the attacker himself!!

                  It is allowed in islam to kill a man if he seeks to harm a fellow!!mistake or purpose!!

                  By the way did you read the whole topic or mearly skimmed the top?

                  If you read it all you would find out that prphets don't make mistakes!!

                  035.045 If Allah were to punish men according to what they deserve. He would not leave on the back of the (earth) a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: when their Term expires, verily Allah has in His sight all His Servants.

                  I don't see the word prophet mixed in there!! If allah was to wipe out everything then what is the use to send a messenger if there is nothing there?

                  Comment


                    #10

                    Shah Jahaan

                    035.045 If Allah were to punish men according to what they deserve. He would not leave on the back of the (earth) a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: when their Term expires, verily Allah has in His sight all His Servants.

                    Like I stated before, not one supporter in 7 years of my asking has been able to answer the above ayat and you are by no means an exception.

                    The ayat in question quite clearly includes EVERY HUMAN, regardless of merit and status. But not for you. You wouldn't accept it even if it mentioned people by name!!

                    What Allah is showing Mankind is that only Allah is Infallible.

                    Do you think it would make a difference to Allah if all living creatures were removed from earth and no Messengers came to convey the Message. I think NOT!!

                    I know it is difficult for some people to accept the ayat as it would nullify their movement and everything would collapse in vain.

                    It's no point clutching at straws.

                    The fact remains that the Qur'aan has proved without a shadow of a doubt that all living Creatures are Fallible. However, some people still disagree.

                    Once again, please read the ayat intensely and concentrate on the part where it states 'NOT A SINGLE LIVING CREATURE'. There is NO EXCEPTION to the rule, as you are trying to prove.

                    You wouldn't be in this position if only you had accepted the ayat in the first place!!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by babydoll:

                      Of Course. Neither Prophet Musa went out of his way to kill the soldier of Pharaoh. He stumbles upon this incident where the slave was being beaten.

                      You don't go around killing people in name of jihad, otherwise all these people like Lashkar-e-tayyaba, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, Sipah-e-Mohammad, Sunni Tehrik etc would be right in their claims for "jihad".

                      True.
                      If you bring such an incident to any court, this incident would be regards as murder, right?

                      But if it were for the slave to kill the man, it would've been regarded as 'killed in self-defence' (even that might be considered an offense in some courts).

                      bottom line is, that a man was killed by Moosa AH. now Allah is the forgiver. I was just trying to show that Prophets are not infallible.

                      ------------------
                      We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

                      [This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited August 10, 2001).]

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Changez_like:
                        What about Hazrat Moosa (AH)'s killing of a person. Though Hazrat Moosa (AH) didn't desire to kill him, but a person was killed by the very hand of him..... ??? killing is a sin, ain't it?

                        Changez,

                        When you stray away from the teachings of the holy ahl-bait (as), you will naturally intrepret the qur'an according to your own whims.

                        Try understanding the qur'an before you comment on the verses.

                        In many instances the sin of the prophets mentioned in Quran is the act they have committed which is considered violation by the tyrants of their time and NOT by Allah (swt).

                        This does NOT mean that they are guilty before Allah (swt). The case of Prophet Moses killing a non-believer in defense of one of his Shia (followers) falls into this category. In fact Quran testifies the above mentioned fact by saying:

                        26:10
                        Behold your Lord called Moses: "Go to unto the wrongdoing folk:
                        26:11
                        The people of Pharaoh, will they not fear Allah?
                        26:12
                        He said: "O my Lord! I do fear that they will charge me with falsehood"
                        26:13
                        "My breast will be straitened and my speech may not go (smoothly), so send Aaron (to help me).
                        26:14
                        "And (further) they hold a charge of sin against me; and I fear they may slay me."

                        As we can see in the last verse, the sin of murder is what the people of Pharaoh considered to be sin and not Allah (swt). They considered Moses guilty. As such, that was not a sin before Allah, but rather the charge of the government.

                        Prophet Moses did what he was supposed to do, that is helping the oppressed believer against the oppressor.

                        Sometimes defending the truth may cause trouble but not sin. Despite all such troubles, Allah finally granted Moses (AS) victory over the unbelievers.

                        Again, Prophet Moses (AS) was not a wrong-dower (Dhalim) otherwise it contradicts Verse 2:124 where Allah said that the position of God-assigned leadership shall not reach to the wrong-doers.

                        Hope this is clear now.

                        ws

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Now, let's see what the holy qur'an says about prophets (as):

                          Allah (swt), the Exalted, states:

                          "Whoever obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah." (Quran 4:80)

                          In the above verses as well as many other verses of the Quran, obedience of Allah has become synonymous with the obedience of the prophets. Such assertion would have been impossible if the prophets were not infallible (Ma'soom).

                          Now, note the following verse:

                          "....and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one." (Quran 76:24)

                          The picture is clear. "The prophets are to be obeyed," and "the sinners are NOT to be obeyed."

                          The only conclusion is that the prophets were NOT sinners or wrong-doers. In other words, they were infallible (Ma'soom) and sinless.

                          ws

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Now, let's see what the holy qur'an says about our holy prophet (pbuh), who was the best of creations, and the Master of all believers:

                            "And whatever the Messenger gives you, take it; and from whatever he forbids you, keep back." (Quran 59:7)

                            This is another indication that WHATEVER the Prophet (pbuh) offered must be accepted unconditionally and with no doubt.

                            This means that the permission or prohibition of the Holy Prophet was always in accordance with the will of Allah and was always favored by Him.

                            It proves that the Holy Prophet was protected (Ma'soom). No one can be so sure about the commands of a man who is not infallible.

                            If the holy prophet (pbuh) was a sinner as some people falsely allege, then how can Allah (swt) order us to accept that which could be sinful?

                            Fear Allah (swt) in your reasoning.

                            ws


                            [This message has been edited by a1shah (edited August 11, 2001).]

                            Comment


                              #15
                              And to those who actually believe that Shaitan could influence the prophets (as), I ask you to read what the qur'an says:

                              15:39
                              He (Shaitan) said: My Lord, Because You has sent me astray, verily I shall adorn the path of error for them on the earth, and shall deceive them all.

                              15:40
                              Except those of them who are Your perfectly devoted Servants.

                              15:41
                              (Allah) said: "This (Way of My sincere servants) is indeed a Way that leads straight to Me.

                              15:42
                              Lo! as for My slaves, you have NO way into them except the wrong-doers who follow you.

                              15:43
                              And verily for all such people, hell is the promised place.

                              It is clear from the above conversation that Allah (swt) has promised that Satan has NO WAY into His sincere Servants, and only wrong-doers will follow the Satan.

                              Thus the Sincere Servants of Allah are not wrong-doers and shall not be deceived. Also Allah (swt) confirms that the Path of His Sincere Servants is a path which leads straight to Him.

                              All these facts prove that the Sincere Servants of Allah (swt) never fall into the trap of Satan, and as such they are infallible, due to Allah's Mercy.

                              ws

                              Comment

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