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    Infoman and his intellectual reasoning

    In another discussion Infoman stated:

    <B><QUOTE>I don't need a book to tell me how to treat my fellow human beings among other things. I have evolved to separate morals from religion. Apparently, some people still need hand holding.</QUOTE></B>

    Sorry, to open up a whole new thread on this, but I think its important to look at what he has said, and then remember that

    Shaitaan (Satan) based his dissent on 'intellectual' reasoning. Thinking, why should I bow before Adam, as I am made of fire and, am thus superior?

    This is unfortunately the problem many Muslims find themselves in as well. By presenting a pseudo-intellectual approach to Islam we have deviated from it.

    The fact is that our approach is anything but intellectual. Look around to see every failed ideology; Democracy, Communism and Fascism - All failed. All promoted and propagated more vices than ever before. Whilst democracy has emerged the victor of contemporary political thought just look around to see all its ills.

    Islam is the only system, the complete system, by which to live our lives. Islam explains what you do, and WHY you do it.

    When your telly breaks down do you call the plumber? No. You call its maker, who knows about it and ask him to fix it.

    Islam is our comprehensive instruction manual for life. Only Allah fixes our problems. Now you tell me, which approach is more intellectual? To use man made laws, man made concepts to try and sort out the world look where that has got us, or to turn to Allah (swt) and implement Islam fully, which as history shows was the only time areas such as Palestine ever had peace.

    <B>Infoman, if you have decided that you are on such a higher evolutionary plane that the rest of us, perhaps you could then enlighten us all by answering the key philosophical question which has plagued ethical philosophers for generations.</B>

    If our modern sense of morality does not stem from religion then where does our sense of morality come from? Everyone is agreed on certain areas of morality e.g. paedophilia. So, if this does not come from religion (or at least religious concepts) then is morality just intrinsically inherent in us all? And if so, then where has that come from.

    You see Infoman, if you want to play this intellectual game, then lets play. But understand, your theories are fatally flawed and condemned as they are man made and deviate from Islam. Your true enlightenment will come when you are man enough (and intellectual enough?) to explore Islam with an open mind and then make an unbiased and clear opinion of it.

    #2
    Godfather,
    When these guyz come outside of India and see,..different world and live through the life which they never even dreamed of,...They think,...they are final authority in every reasoning,..They are so confused,..even they don't know what they talking is nothing more than making noises.I saw couple of our friends here,..who will jump on the band wagon,..just to make their presence known,...and also they try their best to dodge the real questions and just make fun of the religion.They already have a set mind to just argue for the sake of argument.
    But the best soltuion I suggest to you is,...Give them refences if they don't seems to care then,...Write down their ridiculing remarks,...and start new thread for all to see. Expose them.
    Some people argue for the sake of knowledge,..or to find out the reason behind it....some people argue in order to prove their religion is right and ,...some people argue just for the sake of Argument,...I think they are the here just to argue for nothing.
    IGNORE THEM,...or do what I have said,....BTW,...starting this new thread will be more helpful for everyone to know,...
    °º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`° ¤ø,¸°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤ ºÂ°`°º¤ø,¸,¸¸,ø¤º °`°º¤ø,¸,¸¸,ø¤º° ºÂ¤Ã¸



    A Faith that cannot survive collision with the truth is not worth many regrets.

    Comment


      #3
      An entire thread dedicated to me?

      What scares you so much? I am questioning the rigidity of religion. I never said I don't believe in God. I merely, do not accept your vehicle to it. FOr me, religion and spirituality are separate from morals.

      Equating me to "shaitan" is quite laugable because I probably have more reverance for god than you clowns do.

      Now getting back to the relgion issue:

      In another thread my post was deleted but it still requires an answer from such religious mavens like yourselves.

      If god per islam is everywhere and has no shape and form. And if quran is the word of god then why is god refered to itself as "he" in a surah?

      That does make god humanlike. If so then iconocism and idolatory should not banned because if we can picture god then we can draw him and take a pocketsize picture with us everywhere.

      The other explanantion is that whoever wrote the quran, simply goofed and created the paradox.

      And why is god not a 'she", women afterall are more sensible?


      Comment


        #4
        tariq even the muslim feel the same way
        read the following

        While the Western world is moving at lightening speed in the arena of information technology, the Arab/Muslim world is consumed by feudalism, tribalism, illiteracy, poverty, corruption, and an almost total ignorance of their own faith - Islam. Muslims now believe that "Islam" is the constraining factor to their progress, how else does one explain Western wealth? Only when the West separated church and state did they progress. Such pathetic excuses and assessments only serve to reflect the Muslim world's jealous susceptibility to Western propaganda. Muslims not only do not "READ" or use the "PEN" but have tragically surrendered their intellectuality, their independent thought and reasoning, in order to simply emulate and seek worldly wealth, all the while forgetting the forbiddance of emulation in Islam and forgetting the reasoning power of "IJTIHAD" and the greater struggle against worldly passions, "JIHAD".

        Muslims have succeeded in adopting the very superficial aspects of Western "civilization" that the West itself is trying to abandon and correct. We have adopted the "ME FIRST" mentality; we seek instant gratification in our world of sensual stimulation; we accumulate wealth regardless of its immoral or illegal acquisition, we collect "stuff" and chase the newest gadgets; we spend our time shopping in malls; we want the latest "anything" first; we compete with each other to buy for our children; we import almost all our foods and drinks; we smoke and drink more; we drive fast cars while chasing and impressing young women; we have more illegitimate children and abortions; we now have more crime in our cities; we can now watch pornography in the privacy of our satellite dishes; we all must have cellular phones and pagers in countries where sewers still line the streets; we have now become "civilized" as we fall prey to Western epidemics of mental disease with our dependence on "Pills" like Prozac and our own private "Therapists"; we trample upon our own languages with the interjection of American phrases; our use of toilet paper has risen; all the while the muezzins (the one who calls to prayer) cry out for worshippers five times a day seeking to remind Muslims of the "straight path", but alas, the azzan (prayer call) is not heard or heeded above the loud music of Madonna and Ricky Martin bursting from walkmans and headphones

        Comment


          #5
          Rvikz, that quote of your applies equally to Indians, too. Though Hinduism is quite open to new ideas and new forms and has evolved, the people who practice it say one thing and do another. Lets face it, I find us desis hve more than our fair share of hyprocites.


          From my limited observation, I see that Islam has not evolved at all. Fanatics consider that a blessing. At one point in history, Arabs and us Desis were the thinking people with new ideas that changed the world.

          Even the Christians believe that the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ, and that, the Bible has all the answers. But nevertheless they dont let that effect their socio-economic and political structures. However muslims have been convinced that Islam of the middle ages will apply forever. There has been a real selling job done by the proponents. Now we see problems all around the Islamic world and no one has the guts to break out for fear of being branded a Kafir. Fundamentalists contine to chant that there is nothing wrong with Islam, its the people who practice it that are mistaken. There may be some truth to it. It similar to the argument that "Guns dont kill people, its people who kill people" Well, maybe we need to think out of the box for a change.

          [This message has been edited by Tanhaa (edited August 06, 2001).]

          Comment


            #6
            Mr Rvikz, this thought "Islam is the restraining factor" is of those who are brainwashed (I can use these terms for them) by western schools.
            Problems in Muslims today is that people kept scientific study as 'worldly activity' significantly away from 'religious study'. One has to go either way, not both. For 'worldly professions', people spend 12-20 years of their "peak" time studying the profession, paltry amount of time is spent on obtaining 'religious' education. Thats the only way to 'survive' a changing world/society (to be able to have 'standarad life').
            While 'religious professions' not as much "rewarding" are different path, you spend almost similar amount of time to be a scholar not knowing where the world is today in scientific terms. Since it is not as much "rewarding", less people opt this way............. leading a national attitude towards "worldly professions"..... a nation with worldly knowledge and little knowledge of religion would make up a country like Pakistan. Don't want to undermine the scholars we have.

            Distinction in 'religious profession' people and 'worldly/scientific profession' people is quiet obvious. One has car, phone, decorated house (+other luxuries), the other has very simple lifestyle... what would people seek if the society as a whole is turning towards 'materialism' ??? everybody wants 'scientific' profession.

            The crisis facing Muslim nations today is 'lack of religious understanding'.

            ------------------
            We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

            [This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited August 06, 2001).]

            Comment


              #7
              This is my observation!

              Most muslims here fear god - because they were told to fear god or otherwise they will go to hell.

              Infoman fears god, because he feels the concept of god to be beyond his intellectual reasoning.

              I think the later is better

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by kumarakn:
                This is my observation!

                Most muslims here fear god - because they were told to fear god or otherwise they will go to hell.

                Infoman fears god, because he feels the concept of god to be beyond his intellectual reasoning.

                I think the later is better
                Correction: I don't believe god is angry. Thereby, I do not fear god in the biblical or quranic sense.

                I believe god gave us the capacity to learn and ask, therefore to question god is only doing what god wants to do.

                To me, god is the ultimate profundity. Whether it can be bound by calling that knowledge 'allah", "ram", Taco bell" or what ever, is inconsequential. I question the practices of religions, which bind people into limited understanding of what god is. Therefore, whether it's the Gita or quran or the bible, it is ridiculous to assume that all the knowledge (god) or god's plan for human kind can be explained in a few pages.

                The mere fact that "allah" is refered to as a "he" in quran directly contradicts what the quran says about god. I am no islamic scholar, far from it, but it is my understanding that Allah has no shape or form. If so, then why is "allah" refered to as a "he"?. A description reserved for man.



                [This message has been edited by Infoman (edited August 06, 2001).]

                Comment


                  #9
                  For what its worth. I believe that God is a hypothetical answer to a serious question. Where did the universe come from? Since everything must have a beginning. Till we find a better answer, God fills that vacuum.

                  Beyond that, He/She/It owes me nothing , and I dont owe him/her/It anything.

                  Morality is man's response to live and let live. So I agree with Informan that I have my own moral and ethical code. It helps me live peacefully with my fellow man.

                  Thanks for listening.

                  [This message has been edited by Tanhaa (edited August 06, 2001).]

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Tanhaa:
                    ....Morality is man's response to live and let live. So I agree with Informan that I have my own moral and ethical code. It helps me live peacefully with my fellow man.
                    ....
                    [This message has been edited by Tanhaa (edited August 06, 2001).]
                    Theres the problem and you don't get it. Everyone would have his/her own "level" of moral and ethical codes, everyone would then be eligible to justify his bad/wrong doings. Thats why religions provide you a basis to ALL human beings (follower) to compare what is good and what is bad.

                    Human mind has very limited capabilities. Human mind can imagine or extrapolate upto certain length for any concept. If Allah used words which is used for "he", IMHO simply, is because compared to feminine, masculine identity shows more strength and power.

                    ------------------
                    We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by kumarakn:
                      This is my observation!

                      Most muslims here fear god - because they were told to fear god or otherwise they will go to hell.

                      Infoman fears god, because he feels the concept of god to be beyond his intellectual reasoning.

                      I think the later is better
                      Concepts in Islam are not about 'fear' only, but also about 'rewards'. Temptation of 'rewards' and scaring by 'anger' are the tools to encourage human mind to do good deeds.

                      ------------------
                      We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Changez_like:
                        Theres the problem and you don't get it. Everyone would have his/her own "level" of moral and ethical codes, everyone would then be eligible to justify his bad/wrong doings. Thats why religions provide you a basis to ALL human beings (follower) to compare what is good and what is bad.

                        Human mind has very limited capabilities. Human mind can imagine or extrapolate upto certain length for any concept. If Allah used words which is used for "he", IMHO simply, is because compared to feminine, masculine identity shows more strength and power.

                        Did Allah say why it used "he"? Or is that your interpretation? The more logical reason is that "man" wrote the good book and could not think out of the box.

                        There are many women that are stronger than men, intellectually and physically. Your's is a medieval and antiquated answer.


                        Comment


                          #13

                          INFOMAN

                          As I have stated before, do you know the Grammatical and Language differences between Arabic, Aramaic, Hebrew and English.

                          Once you have learned the differences and answered my question, I will then answer your query as to why Allah is refered to as HE and not SHE in the Qur'aan.

                          Just to give you a clue, only an English speaking Westerner or an illiterate Hindu can ask the Question that you have asked!

                          Why do you think NO Middle Eastern Jew or Christian has ever asked this question!

                          Secondly, Why is God refered to as He, Father and not Mother in the Bible and Torah! Please answer.


                          Take your time.

                          Also please confirm your Faith to all of us, so that at least we can then understand your logic. This is my 3rd request!

                          Don't be shy.


                          Comment


                            #14

                            INFOMAN

                            I have yet to see you mention the Torah in any of your responses.

                            My suspicions are that you are either a Jew or Hindu.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by sholay:

                              INFOMAN

                              As I have stated before, do you know the Grammatical and Language differences between Arabic, Aramaic, Hebrew and English.

                              Once you have learned the differences and answered my question, I will then answer your query as to why Allah is refered to as HE and not SHE in the Qur'aan.

                              Just to give you a clue, only an English speaking Westerner or an illiterate Hindu can ask the Question that you have asked!

                              Why do you think NO Middle Eastern Jew or Christian has ever asked this question!

                              Secondly, Why is God refered to as He, Father and not Mother in the Bible and Torah! Please answer.


                              Take your time.

                              Also please confirm your Faith to all of us, so that at least we can then understand your logic. This is my 3rd request!

                              Don't be shy.

                              Don't get your panties in a bunch Sholay!

                              The reason god is refered to as he and not she or it in Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Christianity is because they have made god in their image as opposed to the god creating man in his image(christianity, old testament).

                              Bible and Torah, written by man: refer to god as "he"

                              Quran, supposedly the divine word: refer to god as "he"

                              That only points to that quran is also written by man as opposed to some divine creation.

                              As far as linguistic origins of the three books, the fact that in a patriarchal societies in which these were created (by man),is the probably the reason "he" was probably used. More evidence of the books being created by man! Not God!!!

                              As far as my religion and education level. Bete, relax! I am a gnostic, and as far as education, ask Ali kashmiri. He is starting at the institution where I got my advanced degree.
                              Bye for now!

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