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    logic behind matam?

    Salam to all,

    shia bros, again, from other sources I hear a weird logic for matam on 10th Moharram. Can you all ((shias) give me the exact reason? and who and where it all started?

    ------------------
    We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

    #2
    Changez;

    The article at the link below should give you a pretty good idea of why shias mourn for Imam Hussain (as).
    http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/islam/0000103.php

    Also, this link shows questions about matam that were posed to Ayatollah Sherazi and his answers.
    http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/islam/0000100.php

    ws

    [This message has been edited by a1shah (edited July 16, 2001).]

    Comment


      #3
      This topic has been discussed before.
      http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/002623.html
      "A woman has got to be able to say, and not feel guilty, 'Who am I, and what do I want out of life?' She mustn't feel selfish and neurotic if she wants goals of her own, outside of husband and children"

      Comment


        #4

        This article on Azadari (mourning) was written by my cousin Zileyh at: http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/islam/0000103.php

        1. The mourning for Imam Hussain[as]

        As the Ummah enters a new millennium and the coming of our Imam (as)
        comes
        ever closer, the Shi'a community is now being faced with new
        challenges, the
        traditional opposition from the majority school but also from the Shi'a
        community itself.

        Voices of opposition to the mourning rituals for Imam Hussain (as) is
        becoming all the more prevalent. This is why we felt that it was our
        duty to
        defend the traditions of Aazadari.

        1.1 Is Mourning for Imam Hussain (as) Bidah?

        This is the common argument of the Ahl'ul Sunnah. Our response is that
        such
        rituals have passed through history and were rituals cited in the
        Bible, the
        Qur'an and in the practices of the Sahaba.

        2. Part 1 - Textual Proofs

        2.1 Christian sources

        The Wahabys will ask 'why are you quoting Christian sources?' to them
        our
        answer is simple doesn't Ahmad Deedat prove Salaat from Christian
        sources?
        Of course, why because he seeks to demonstrate that this form of Salaat
        is
        correct was practised by previous generations. We will likewise advance
        the
        same arguments when proving mourning rituals.

        The Bible, Isaiah 22:12 - shows that this type of mourning was ordained
        by
        God

        "On that Day the Lords called for weeping and beating the breast, for
        shaving the head and putting on sack cloth"

        "You are now at ease, be anxious; tremble, you who have no cares. Strip
        yourselves bare; put a cloth round your waists and beat yourselves"
        The Bible, Isaiah 32:11

        "Howl, Heshbon, for Ai is despoiled. Cry aloud you villages round
        Rabbath
        Ammon, put on sack cloth and beat your breast and score your body with
        gashes"
        The Bible, Jeremiah 49:3

        "The crowd that had assembled for the spectacle, when they saw what had
        happened went home beating their breasts"
        The Bible, Luke 23:48

        2.2 Mourning from the Qur'an

        From the Holy Quran from the Chapter ADH-DHAARIYAAT we learn that
        Hadhrath
        Sara (as) struck her face when she was told that she would conceive a
        baby.

        "Then came forward his wife in grief, she smote her face and said
        (what! I)
        an old barren woman?"
        Quran 51:29

        Thus it is evident that smiting the face was not an objectionable act
        in the
        sight of Allah, otherwise Allah would have reprimanded her for doing
        so.

        2.3 The mourning rituals of the Sahaba, wives and Ahl'ul bayt (as)

        2.3.1. Beating and mourning by a Bedouin / Sahaba

        We can read from the book of Muwatta of Imam Malik, that a Bedouin came
        to
        Holy Prophet (saww) while beating his chest and tearing his hair in
        front of
        the holy prophet (saww) because he slept with his wife while fasting
        during
        month of Ramadhan.

        Malik's Muwatta
        Book 18, Number 18.9.29:

        Yahya related to me from Malik from Ata ibn Abdullah al-Khurasani that
        Said
        ibn al-Musayyab said, "A bedouin came to the Messenger of Allah, may
        Allah
        bless him and grant him peace, beating his breast and tearing out his
        hair
        and saying, 'I am destroyed.' The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless
        him
        and grant him peace, said, 'Why is that?', and he said, 'I had
        intercourse
        with my wife while fasting in Ramadhan.' The Messenger of Allah, may
        Allah
        bless him and grant him peace, asked him, 'Are you able to free a
        slave?',
        and the man said, 'No.' Then he asked him, 'Are you able to give away a
        camel?', and the man replied, 'No.' He said, 'Sit own,' and someone
        brought
        a large basket of dates to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him
        and
        grant him peace, and he said to the man, 'Take this and give it away as
        sadaqa.' The man said, 'There is no one more needy than me,' and (the
        Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace), said,
        'Eat
        them, and fast one day for the day when you had intercourse.' "

        1. The incident should be considered in the light of the following
        facts :-

        2. The Bedouin being a Muslim was Sahabi (companion) of the Holy
        Prophet
        (saww).

        3. He was beating his chest and tearing his hair in presence of Holy
        Prophet
        (saww) who neither objected to it nor reprimanded him for the same.

        4. The action of the Bedouin was a result of spiritual pain he suffered
        as
        his fast was invalidated.

        5. This incident has been authentically recorded by Sunni
        traditionalists.

        2.3.2. Beating and mourning by Bilal

        Sheikh Abdul Haq Mohaddis Hanafi Dehlavi who is regarded as one of the
        greatest Scholars of the Sunni Sect, describing the events at the fatal
        illness of the Holy Prophet (saww) in his book 'Modaarejun Nubuwwat'
        vol. II
        page 544 records:-

        "Bilal emerged beating his head and loudly wailing (from the room of
        Aisha)."

        Even in this case none of the companions raised any objection at the
        action
        of Bilal, the special Muezzin of the Prophet (saww). Moreover, the Holy
        Prophet (saww) was yet alive and not dead. This is the extreme extent
        of
        grief. Then how can similar action for Imam Hussain (as) be prohibited?

        Allamah Shibli Numani al Hanafi is a renowned Sunni scholar from the
        Indian
        subcontinent, in his Sirat-un Nabi (Eng. translation Volume 2 pg. 74)
        quoting Sirat Ibn Hisham we read following Hadhrath Humza (ra)
        martyrdom:

        2.3.3. Beating and mourning by the wives of the Sahaba

        "The Holy Prophet (P) returned to Madina and found the whole city gone
        into
        mourning. Whenever he went, he heard wailing and lamentation in every
        house.
        He was grieved to find that all who fell in the battle had their
        mourners
        doing their duty to the memory of their dear ones; but their was none
        to
        mourn the death of Humza (ra). Overwhelmed with grief the words that
        there
        was none to mourn the loss of Hamza escaped his lips. The Ansaris were
        touched to the core when the remark came to their ears. They asked
        their
        women to go to the house of the Prophet (S) and lament over the death
        of
        Humza. The Prophet (p) thanked them for their sympathy, prayed for
        their
        well being, but added that it was not permissible to cry lamentations
        in
        memory of the dead. (Women in Arabia were used to wailing and lamenting
        aloud, they would tear off their garments, dig their nails into their
        cheeks, slap themselves on the face and put up loud screams. This
        undesirable practice was from that day stopped for future".

        Suffice it to say:

        The Sahaba's wives performed mourning rituals upon the death of Amir
        Humza
        (ra).

        Coming back to Numani's final comments I would pose these questions:

        1. If Lamenting was haraam why would the Prophet (S) had been saddened
        that
        no one was mourning his slain Uncle?

        2. Why would the Prophet (S) allow the women to do something that is
        haraam?

        3. If as Numani tells us that this was a common practice amongst Arab
        women
        and it was banned it would have definitely received maximum publicity.

        4. Beating and mourning by Ayesha and the other wives of the Prophet
        (S)

        2.3.4. Beating and mourning by the wives of the Prophet (S)

        Curiously, not a single wife of the Prophet (S) ever heard of this ban
        (as
        claimed by Numani). On the contrary Hadhrath Aisha regarded by Ahl'ul
        Sunnah
        as the most knowledgeable women on Qur'an and Sunnah performed the
        following
        when the Prophet (S) left this earth:

        As narrated by al Tabari in History Volume 9 page 183 (English
        translation
        by Ismail Poonawalla)

        Abbas narrates:

        "I heard Aisha saying "The Messenger of God died on my bosom during my
        turn,
        I did not wrong anyone in regard to him. It was because of my ignorance
        and
        youthfulness that the Messenger of God died while he was in my lap.
        Then I
        laid his head on a pillow and got up beating my chest and slapping my
        face
        along with the women".

        Need we say anymore? Would the wives of the Prophet (S) indulge in a
        haraam
        activity?

        According to Musnad of Imam Ahmad Hanbal Vol. 6, page 274; Aisha
        mourned the
        demise of the Holy Prophet (saww) with other women by beating her head.

        2.3.5. Beating and mourning by Sayyida Fatima Zahra (as)

        Again the same book of 'Modaarejun Nubuwwat' Vol. 2, page 163, the high
        ranking Sunni Scholar, Sheikh Abdul Haq Mohaddis Hanafi Dehlavi
        recorded
        that:

        "Fatima Zahra (as) hearing the rumour of the martyrdom of the Holy
        Prophet
        (saww) at Uhud came out of her house running and beating her head".

        Does it not transpire from the above that beating of head during the
        act of
        mourning for a martyr is also allowed by the religion as Sayyeda (as)
        was
        well aware of the religious code and was also infallible according to
        ayah
        tat-hir (33:33). In addition an action of any member of Ahl'ul bayt is
        a
        Sunnah for the Ithna Ashari Shia's, mourning is not bidah it is a
        Sunnah of
        Sayyida Fatima Zahra (as).

        2.3.6. Beating and mourning for Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal death

        From the book of 'Hayatul Aaiwan' it is recorded that :

        "Caliph Mutawwakil ordered breast-beatings to be held at the spot where
        funeral prayers were offered over the dead body of Imam Ahmad bin
        Hambal (a
        founder of one of the Sunni schools of thought). Accordingly, some
        25,00,000
        persons including Muslims, Jews, Christians and Majusi gathered there
        and
        mourned Ahmad bin Hambal with breast-beatings."

        It may be noted here that this Caliph, Mutawwakil is the same one who
        had
        completely demolished the sacred shrine of the Holy Prophet's grandson,
        Imam
        Hussain (as). Yet he has so much love and regard for Imam Ahmad Hambal
        that
        he not only beats his own breast, but commands other religious group
        also to
        follow his example!

        2.4 What do these sources demonstrate?

        From these sources it is evident that to mourn in this way is a natural
        reaction to distress.

        Who in this life can claim that he never and will never beat himself,
        if he
        dare to claim that than he just deceive himself! We human being
        naturally
        beat ourselves at the time when something make us happy or sad.

        We all goes to the conference, meeting, party and other occasions when
        the
        time come to cheer someone for what he has done we start clapping
        ourselves.
        Some people will clap that their hands become red, but here there is no
        one
        to protest that we are hurting ourselves. Not only is there no one to
        protest but we join other people by beating ourselves with our hands.

        Also when we hear surprise or sad news we hit ourselves on the
        forehead, on
        our chest or any place in our body. You can see this behaviour to all
        human
        beings it does discriminate between Sunni, Shia, Christians, Jews or
        any
        one. Again we do not hear condemnation from those who accuse the Shia
        of
        beating themselves for the sake of Imam Hussain! Take the example from
        the
        Bible you see how it is the human nature:

        "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his
        eyes
        unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a
        sinner". (KJV)
        The Bible, Luke 18:13

        Strange is the world to those people who just follow what they have
        been
        taught without trying to struggle to find the truth.

        Our detractors will argue that self-flagellation is haraam because it
        causes
        pain to the body. To counter this we would present these references.

        Previously we quoted the book of Muwatta of Imam Malik, that a bedouin
        came
        to Holy Prophet (saww) while tearing his hair in front of the holy
        prophet,
        is this not the sort of injury oneself? Why did the Holy Prophet (saww)
        not
        order the Bedouin to refrain from this action?

        The most explicit proof of self inflicted injury comes Owais Qarni, the
        great Muslim Sahaba, praised by both Shia as well as Sunni erudite's,
        had an
        immense love for the Holy Prophet (saww). When the news reached him in
        Yemen
        that two teeth of the Holy Prophet (saww) were broken in the battle of
        Ohad,
        he extracted all his teeth. When the Holy Prophet (saww) got the news
        in
        Madina that Owais had struck down all his teeth, he (saww) exclaimed,
        "Indeed Owais is our devoted friend."

        This event can be found written in 'Tazkeratul Aulia' by Sheikh
        Fariddun
        Attar, also 'Ihsanul Uyun' commonly known as 'Seerate Halbia' vol. II,
        page
        295.

        We should point out that breaking one's teeth is a thousand times more
        painful than the beating of one's chest for a few hours. It is even
        more
        extreme than breast beating with chains or knives (Zanjir) because
        those who
        have suffered from tooth ache will understand the immense pain that
        circulates in the mouth and head. Compare the removal of a tooth to the
        forced removal of a full set of teeth without the benefit of modern day
        anaesthetic and instruments the pain must have been unbearable. This
        was
        clearly an act of great courage.

        Some individuals will seek to counter this evidence by stating that as
        Shia
        we do not follow the Sahaba and hence this act cannot be relied upon as
        a
        precedent. We would like to ask such persons, could you show us a
        single
        hadith in which the Prophet (S) condemned this act and issued an edict
        banning it in the future?

        Those who are against mourning for Imam Hussain (as) and, for that
        matter,
        for any of the martyrs of Karbala usually raise a question whether the
        Holy
        Prophet (saww) had ordered for mourning Imam Hussain (as). The answer
        to
        this question is: 'did the Holy Prophet (saww) ordered Owais Qarni
        (ra) to
        extract all his teeth? Did he insist that the Bedouin to beat his
        chest? Did
        he ordered Bilal to beat his head? Similarly there was no order by the
        Holy
        Prophet (saww) for Fatima (as) to beat her head at the rumour of his
        martyrdom in Uhud. The reason for the absence of such orders with
        regards to
        mourning or even sanction therefore is, however, quite clear. These
        acts
        were all done out of love and sorrow and the Holy Prophet (saww) had
        not
        forbidden this.

        It is quite clear for the holding mourning of Imam Hussain (as) by
        means of
        beating the chest or Zanjir is to give Physical expression of sympathy
        for
        the grief that befall Imam Hussain (as) and it expresses nothing but
        love
        and loyalty.

        3. Part 2 - Rational and logical proofs

        Our fellow Shi'a opposed to mourning rituals usually present their
        arguments
        on the following basis.

        IMAGE: This is portraying a bad image for the Non Muslims?

        MESSAGE of Imam Hussain (AS): We are losing the real values of the
        teachings of Imam Hussain(AS)

        Our answers to these two arguments are as follows:

        3.1 IMAGE:

        If Image and blood spill was such an issue then why not examine the
        other
        fundamental of Islam. For instance all of the everyday aspects and
        which is
        all Wajib:-

        1. Hijab; The kufr and non- Muslims see this as oppression of women,
        and
        question why a person should cover herself?

        2. Jehad; the Kufr and non-Muslims see this as radicalism and
        fundamentalism.

        3. Sacrificing of an animal, lots of blood spill, and the manner which
        non-Muslims see portray this.

        4. How about going around the Kaaba? Kufar find it funny and question
        why do
        Muslims circulate around a stone?

        5. Running between "Safa" and "Marwa". Etc?

        6. Circumcision: Obviously a Fardh, is looked as a cruel act by the
        non-Muslims which we do to new born babies.

        7. The list goes on...

        In India and Pakistan, during Muharram you will find that even Sunnis,
        Hindus and Sikhs participating in the Marches and taking part in chest
        beating and self-flagellation. So strong is the love expressed by
        Hindus and
        Sikhs to Imam Hussain (AS) that they view it as act of worship for
        which
        they will receive rewards - a means by which their prayers will be
        answered?
        So powerful are the processions in the Indian Subcontinent that Sikhs
        will
        even "proclaim" the words "YA ALI MADAD", demonstrating their love for
        Maula
        Ali (as).

        If these rituals are portraying such a "BAD IMAGE" then CLEARLY then
        why are
        Sunnis and Kaffirs not being turned away from them? We should also
        point out
        that the number of converts to Shia'ism in the Indian Subcontinent is
        very
        large - rather than being repulsed by these rituals converts are
        attracted
        to these rituals. Remember many Sunnis have never heard of Imam Hussain
        (as), these rituals bring his martyrdom to the masses.

        If image is such posing such problem, let say that Zinjeer of Tatbeer
        was
        completely abolished, what is there to say that KUFR are not going to
        try to
        Knit pick on the other aspect of Deen as mentioned above?


        3.2 MESSAGE:

        Are we really losing the Message of Imam Hussain(AS) performing by
        these
        rituals?

        People opposed to the mourning rituals will make comments like:

        "Instead of telling the world that Human Rights, Truth, Justice,
        Integrity
        is what Imam Husayn stood for we are shown as barbarians who cut the
        heads
        of their babies"

        The message of Imam Hussain(AS) is strong!! As promised by the Prophet
        (S),
        it will remain intact till the day of Judgement!! To say that the
        message of
        Imam Hussain(AS) is lost is ludicrous as it goes against the traditions
        of
        the Prophet(S).

        On the birth of Imam Hussain(AS), when Angel Gabriel informed that this
        child would be one day be martyred, Lady Fatima(AS) wept and asked the
        Prophet(PBUMHF) who will be there to mourn for him? , The
        Prophet(PBUMHF)
        assured her that group of people shall arise and will mourn her child
        till
        the day of Judgement, and he said this in a POSITIVE MANNER. No where
        did he
        state that Shias shall indulge in Haram acts, when they will mourn for
        Imam
        Hussain(AS).

        Had the message really been lost, we would have been seeing a very
        different
        Islam today Islam is ALIVE TODAY BEACAUSE OF THEIR(AS) SACRIFICE,
        therefore
        on what basis do you state that the Imam Hussain(AS) values and
        teachings
        are lost. If this was the case then the ISLAM that we would be seeing
        today
        would not have been in the original form.

        3.2.1. Common Questions and responses related to Zinjeer and Tatbeer:

        Q1: "Imam Hussein (as) when speaking to S. Zainab said "Dear Sister, be
        tranquil and patient. It is not only the inhabitants of the world that
        die.
        Those in the heavens do not also continue to live. everything dies
        except
        the Almighty, Who has created the people with His power, and will one
        day
        bring them to life again, whereas He Himself is Unique. My grandfather
        was
        better than me, my father was better than me. My mother and brother
        were
        better than me. It is necessary for every Muslim to follow the Prophet
        of
        Allah. Dear sister I administer an oath to you that you will follow my
        advice. Do not tear your dress on account of my suffering; Do not
        scratch
        your face and do not lament"

        A1: This tradition is often quoted by those opposed to mourning rituals
        for
        Imam Hussain[as]. This alleged tradition contradicts other Sahih
        hadeeth in
        which S. Zainab[sa] struck her head with a bar in the carriage.

        Clearly it would be illogical for her to do this, had her brother
        forbade
        her to do it. Do you really think Zainab[sa] will disobey Imam e
        Waqt[as]
        and her brother?

        Zaynab peace be upon her was the first person who hit her forehead to a
        bar
        inside the carriage she was in, causing considerable bleeding, when the
        head
        of al-Hussain (AS) was being paraded in Kufa. This is one evidence that
        the
        shedding of blood is permissible; whether from the head or from the
        back
        etc. The infallible Imam Zayn-el-'Aabidin (AS) used to address Lady
        Zaynab
        al-Kubra (AS) by saying to her "You are al-Hamdu-Lillah an untaught
        scholar" - "Anti al-Hamdu-Lillah 'Alimah Ghayr Mu'allimah"
        Bihaar al-Anwaar; volume 45, page 114,
        Jalaa' al-'Oyun; volume 2, page 238,
        Zaynab al-Kubra; page 112,
        Asraar al-Shahadah; page 474,
        Al-Muntakhab; volume 2, page 478,
        Nusrat-ul-Madhlum; page 18.
        Needless to say that 'Allamah al-Majlisi - compiler of Bihaar al-Anwaar
        -
        and Sheikh al-Shari'ah al-Isfahani have confirmed the authenticity of
        the
        report.


        Q2: The post modern Shi'as who deem blood shedding a waste often pose
        these
        questions:

        Why we can't donate blood-to-blood banks?
        Why can't we take flowers to sick people dying of cancer in
        hospitals?
        Why can't we give food to the homeless and needy?
        Why can't we show that Imam Husayn (AS) sacrificed his life for the
        basic
        rights and values that all communities believe in and cherish dearly.
        Why can't we practice what we preach?

        A2: As followers of the Ahlulbayt(AS) we should be following their
        teachings
        and ethics 24 HOURS A DAY, 7 DAYS A WEEK, ALL YEAR AROUND. As
        followers of
        the HOLY Progeny, we have all year to:

        1. preach the MESSAGE OF IMAM HUSSAIN (AS) and the lessons of Karbala.
        2. spread the deen of Allah(SWT).
        3. donate the blood to the sick and needy,
        4. give food to the homeless and the needy

        ASHURA IS ONE DAY IN A WHOLE YEAR, HOW MUCH BLOOD CAN ONE WASTE IN ONE
        DAY?

        Q3. "It is our duty to deliver Imam Hussain's message to the population
        of
        the country we live in. To show we are sincere believers of Islam and
        hold
        up the things Imam Husayn stood for."

        A3. "There is no problem with this statement what so ever, but what is
        yet
        to be proven is that this form of ritual is a) DAMAGING to the message
        of
        Imam Hussain(AS) b) it is HARAAM according to Hukum Shiria. Neither
        the
        Prophet(PBUMHF), nor the Imams(AS) forbade Matam in any form, as proven
        above".

        Q4: "Now can you explain the benefits or the message of Maatam and
        cutting
        the children's heads or zanjeer maatam and its relation to what Imam
        Husayn
        (AS) died for?"

        A4: We counter such feeble arguments with this question?

        What was the benefit of the Owais bin karni smashing his jaw, for going
        through such grievance?

        What was the benefit bedouin of beating and tearing his hair?

        What was the benefit of lady Fatima al-Zahra(as), the holy infallible,
        the
        lady of light, to beat and mourn the way she(as) did?

        4. Conclusion:

        So in Summary we have shown.

        1. Quranic evidence
        2. Evidence from Tarikh
        3. Evidence from Christian sources
        4. Rational proof and logical arguments

        The anti Matamis usually present their argument on the basis of "Image"
        and
        "Message", which is weak in the light of all the evidence shown above.
        It
        is sad that for some reason we always seem to question the validity of
        anything that is related to Karbala and Imam Hussain(AS), BUT WHEN IT
        COMES
        TO THE HOLY PROPHET(PBUMHF), We don't seem to object heavily to all of
        the
        fallacies from the Kufr against our Holy Prophet(saww). Indeed the
        motive of
        those people are suspicious!

        But there are many who frown upon self-flagellation owing to various
        views
        promulgated about the opinions of the marajae - but different views
        exist
        here also and so the reader is urged to consult the maraja he does
        taqlid
        of, and not to condemn his brother's actions as there are marajae
        living
        today who allow the spilling of blood in self-flagellation and indeed
        recommend it - it may be your brother is simply following that opinion.
        However in the end at its very deepest level the practice of
        self-flagellation is an example of deeply wounded feelings of anguish
        resulting in an action that is synonymous with it.

        It is a co-ordination of the material with the spiritual - a
        transcendant
        passion approaching a state that cohesively unites the emotional with
        the
        physical - the emotion being pulsing grief, the action the pulsing
        movements
        of the flagellant, heart and body acting as one, blood flowing as a
        result,
        the intellect having acknowledged its permissibility on the basis of
        the
        above examples.

        Further, the symbolism is more than even this. In addition to the
        symbolism
        of blood that has been spilled and thus sacrificed in the devotee's
        sympathy with his Master, the King of Martyrs, blood has a sacred
        meaning
        none the moreso than with Imam Hussain as shown by the blood in the
        dust
        given to Umm Salma (sa) turning blood red, and it raining blood
        elsewhere
        when the King of Martyrs was beheaded.

        The symbolism of the spilling of blood by the devotee, his own blood,
        is
        thus symbolic of the very nature of Karbala and brings that event, the
        supreme sacrifice, to the fore, a sacrifice that for which the lamb
        was
        sacrificed instead of his son by a knife by Ibrahim Khalilullah. And
        what,
        if Mohammad (saws)'s blood is spilt will man not spill his own blood?
        And
        even then the spilling of the blood has a deeper, more personal reason
        - the
        heart of worship is love, and here we find love of ahl-ul-bait.

        In the world of the spirit the devotee wonders how it is that he who
        was
        spiritual, whose name meant kindness in its cosmic representation, and
        whose
        quality was his famous gentleness, Hussain (as) the Lord of the Spirits
        of
        the Believers, was treated so cruelly by an unjust material world with
        suffering that no man has or will bear in the material world. It is
        this
        clash of the duality of material and spiritual, with material hurting
        the
        spiritual, that excites in the devotee his own spirit's voice, that
        heart
        touched by the light of Imam Hussain (as), and since all hearts long
        for
        their origin, the believer reciprocates his Master's pain by bringing
        the
        material onto that wherein his spirit lies - he cuts his own body which
        harbours his own spirit, a spirit longing for union with his Master - a
        Master hurt by a cruel material world that cut his material form and
        hurt
        his sensitivities, though his spirit, like that of the believer's
        endured
        these calamities.

        Thus the act of self-flagellation is nothing more than the believer
        trying
        to feel as his Master felt and more, realising he cannot be at Karbala
        the
        anguish this causes him - the anguish of separation - the helplessness
        creates this phenomenon of self-flagellation.

        The reader is asked if he cannot understand this to ponder the words
        repeated by cautious Ulema throughout the ages on this topic who have
        often
        passed silence. It was not fear of the self- flagellators and their
        influence as some say - the Ulema said - Fear the Mother of Hussain
        (as) -
        that is fear Fatima (sa) - for even if one does not perform this action
        oneself, if that believer's devotion to her son in this action finds
        her
        favour then it would be wrong to condemn him - very, very wrong. The
        martyrdom of Imam Hussain (as) has spiritual dimensions that most men
        can
        never truly understand.


        Comment


          #5
          Why not do 'matam' for martyrdom of Hazrat Ali (RA) ?? wasn't he innocent? he was also martyred for not agreeing with kharijis, right?

          if all other imams were also martyrd (by poisioning or killing) then why not do 'matam' for them as well?

          can you please elaborate some on this?

          ------------------
          We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

          Comment


            #6
            It is interesting to note that you mentioned "Sunnis", "Sikhs" and even "Hindus" participate in 'matam' 'process'. I bet they do not even know what the teachings of Hazrat Ali (RA) are and what Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) was martyred for. They are blindly following it as part of cultural thing now (if they really are doing as you said). If they (hindus and sikhs) really knew the teachings of Hazrat Ali (RA) and Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) that well to do 'matam' for Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) they would have converted to Islam.

            By any chance, do you have any link to such a news that shows hindu n sikhs mourning the death? (just need to look at it, not challenging).

            Also, the reference from Bible, in my opinion it is for the incident when that particular nation had departed/deviated from the promise with Allah or teachings of their nabi thats why Allah ordered them to beat themselves (as a punishment for disobeying and not for 'matam'). You can also do research and you will find a reference to such incident in Quran.

            ------------------
            We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

            [This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited July 19, 2001).]

            Comment


              #7
              There is no logic behind 'matam'. Being sad for some one's loss is one thing and coming out on the streets making noise, beating chest or self-inflicting wounds, on one's body is nothing but a drama and a sorry excuse to draw attention, use drugs and skip work. Most of these people are hired guns anyway and are high on 'charas' etc. If no one will go and watch them, all this drama will disappear very quickly.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Changez_like:
                Why not do 'matam' for martyrdom of Hazrat Ali (RA) ?? wasn't he innocent? he was also martyred for not agreeing with kharijis, right?

                if all other imams were also martyrd (by poisioning or killing) then why not do 'matam' for them as well?

                can you please elaborate some on this?

                Changez,

                We do matam for all 11 imams. Since the tragedy of Karbala was extreme, the occassion is more emotional.

                Majlises are held for the shahadaat of every masoomeen.

                ws

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Mullah_DoPiazza:
                  There is no logic behind 'matam'. Being sad for some one's loss is one thing and coming out on the streets making noise, beating chest or self-inflicting wounds, on one's body is nothing but a drama and a sorry excuse to draw attention, use drugs and skip work. Most of these people are hired guns anyway and are high on 'charas' etc. If no one will go and watch them, all this drama will disappear very quickly.
                  Mullah,

                  The only ones on drugs are your Taliban wahabis, who decide to get world attention blowing up buddas whenever they don't get aid/money from the "kuffars" after all their begging.

                  Matam has been done by prophets (as).

                  Read the quran for a change.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Changez,

                    The fact that non muslims also recognize the treachery of karbala puts the majority of muslims at shame, since most muslims do not even bother with what happened with the holy imam (as). I have seen sunnis, out of spite, holding marriage ceremonies during muharram.

                    Allah (swt) is the best of Judges.

                    Its not a matter about becoming muslim or not. Its a matter of recognizing the bravery of the holy imam (as), as he set forth to defend the teachings of Allah (swt) and his holy grandfather (pbuh), against the tyrant Yazid.

                    Upholding truth and destryoing falsehood is a universal goal. It is not restricted to Islam. Sad that most non-muslims can see the truth better than muslims, when analyzing the events of kerbala.

                    If it wasn't for the imam (as), you would now be following the teachings of Yazid and his scholars.

                    And as for sunnis, like you said it yrself, they have no or sparse knowkedge of the true teachings of the holy ahl-bait (as).

                    ws

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Changez_like:
                      It is interesting to note that you mentioned "Sunnis", "Sikhs" and even "Hindus" participate in 'matam' 'process'. I bet they do not even know what the teachings of Hazrat Ali (RA) are and what Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) was martyred for. They are blindly following it as part of cultural thing now (if they really are doing as you said). If they (hindus and sikhs) really knew the teachings of Hazrat Ali (RA) and Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) that well to do 'matam' for Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) they would have converted to Islam.

                      You couldn't be more wrong. Every year at my Imambargagh a group of Sikhs come to read poetry on Hazrat Ali and tragedy of Karbala. Once there came and old Hindu priest who read an entire majalis about the tragedy of Karbala. When he was asked if was now a Shia or a Hindu, he replied that all religions teach something good and the tragedy of the Ahlul Bait and their sacrifice is something that all people could learn. Even Hindus. Possibly even ignorant Sunnis.


                      [This message has been edited by Salman (edited July 19, 2001).]

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Once again, why are you mixing history with Islam?? You can do Matam, thats up to you.. but why pass it off as part of your religion, i.e. Islam?

                        If Allah had wanted Matam to be part of Islam he would have said so in Quran or Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) would have instructed the sahabas to do that. But he didn't.

                        Also, No one denys the greatness of Hazrat Ali, but we cannot introduce things into Islam that are not part of Quran and Sunnah.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Don't talk false a1shah....

                          Not even a single Sunni holds any type of marriage or cheerful ceremony during the month of Muharram.

                          In most Sunni countries like Pakistan radio and tv don't even play songs.


                          Originally posted by a1shah:
                          Changez,

                          The fact that non muslims also recognize the treachery of karbala puts the majority of muslims at shame, since most muslims do not even bother with what happened with the holy imam (as). I have seen sunnis, out of spite, holding marriage ceremonies during muharram.

                          Allah (swt) is the best of Judges.

                          Its not a matter about becoming muslim or not. Its a matter of recognizing the bravery of the holy imam (as), as he set forth to defend the teachings of Allah (swt) and his holy grandfather (pbuh), against the tyrant Yazid.

                          Upholding truth and destryoing falsehood is a universal goal. It is not restricted to Islam. Sad that most non-muslims can see the truth better than muslims, when analyzing the events of kerbala.

                          If it wasn't for the imam (as), you would now be following the teachings of Yazid and his scholars.

                          And as for sunnis, like you said it yrself, they have no or sparse knowkedge of the true teachings of the holy ahl-bait (as).

                          ws


                          [This message has been edited by wasir (edited July 20, 2001).]

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Changez, it appears from your comment that you have not read my cousin's article carefully. Please do so, your required answers are in the article.

                            Regarding the reference in the Quran, can you please post it, I would like to explain it to you.

                            Originally posted by Changez_like:
                            It is interesting to note that you mentioned "Sunnis", "Sikhs" and even "Hindus" participate in 'matam' 'process'. I bet they do not even know what the teachings of Hazrat Ali (RA) are and what Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) was martyred for. They are blindly following it as part of cultural thing now (if they really are doing as you said). If they (hindus and sikhs) really knew the teachings of Hazrat Ali (RA) and Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) that well to do 'matam' for Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) they would have converted to Islam.

                            By any chance, do you have any link to such a news that shows hindu n sikhs mourning the death? (just need to look at it, not challenging).

                            Also, the reference from Bible, in my opinion it is for the incident when that particular nation had departed/deviated from the promise with Allah or teachings of their nabi thats why Allah ordered them to beat themselves (as a punishment for disobeying and not for 'matam'). You can also do research and you will find a reference to such incident in Quran.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              changes

                              the sunnis definately do know what the teachings of ali(as) and hussain(as) are...they'd be pretty ignorant not to know about their 4th caliph

                              and as far as hindus are concerned...they do know what matam is and y it is done...every year on the 10 of muharram(ashura) hindus hold majalis' in calcutta, dehli, mumbai etc etc.

                              ------------------
                              "There as many ideas in the minds of men and women as there are stars in the sky, it is your job to hold on to one and make it come true"
                              Anonymous

                              Comment

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