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RE: Sholay – [Jesus Ascension VS Jesus Death]

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    RE: Sholay – [Jesus Ascension VS Jesus Death]

    This is in continuation from another thread, where me and sholay started a discussion on Hadhrat Isa(as) ascension and his coming back in later days.

    I put a question to him that
    • Prove from Quran that JESUS ascended to SKY, ALIVE with his PHYSICAL BODY? Also substantiate the meaning of ascension from quran.
    For which in reply he quoted two verses (i.e 43:61 and 3:55) and asked me Okay Zalim, explain this ayat as well.

    As for my response I would like to debate on one verse at a time and for now will not allow my discussion to go beyond Quran.

    The former verse (i.e. 43:61) to me seems out of the topic, for being it in no way goes with the theme we are discussing over here, however I will write my opinion on this later.

    The second verse you quoted (i.e. 3:55), is one of the 30 verses which proves that JESUS died a natural death.
    • The actual verse in Arabic read as wa is qalal laho ya eesa inni mutawafika wa rafayoka,

      >> The translation Mr. Sholay presented is as:
      Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take you and raise you to Myself

      However throughout Quran both words tawaffani and rafa has been used several times and not even on a single place they have been translated as such. Mr. Sholay, is there any reference how you translated those words?
    To dilate my argument further allow me to explain the meaning of the above words in the light of Quran.

    Meaning Of word MutawaffiMeaning Of word RafaThese are some examples, if you want I can quote more but my question is, If the word RAFA is translated as exalted throughout the Quran then whats blocking your way to translate the same over here also?

    Brother Sholay I am not trying to win a situation, think you might be wrong, even part in a million. The knowledge I am sharing with you is itself a sign that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a true Imam Mahdi without that person, I would have been talking like you.

    wasalam


    [This message has been edited by Zalim (edited June 14, 2001).]
    zameen tumhara kuch nahin bigar sakhtee, ger aasman say taluq pukhta ho....

    #2
    The following article is written by
    Brother Kashif Ahmed Shehzada
    May Allah (S.W.T.) reward him, here and hereafter.
    The URL of author's web site is: http://www.freespeech.org/islamic/library/jesus.htm

    ---------------------------------

    With the Name of Allah, The Most Compassionate, The Most Merciful
    SECOND COMING OF JESUS (P)
    AN EXPOSITION FROM AL-QUR'AN




    With the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

    "And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life. Such is Jesus, the son of Mary; (this is) the saying of truth about which they dispute." (Quran 19:33-34)

    Dear Reader,

    Please confirm the following verses (if possible) in your Arabic Qur'an. The translations are mostly from M.H.Shakir, Allama Abdullah Yusuf Ali and Muhammad Asad's translations of the Qur'an, except some places where I have highlighted words myself. All emphasis are mine, but one should confirm all the verses in Arabic as it is the Arabic which is the source of confirming the translations. It is hoped that those who do not understand the Arabic of the Qur'an will also find this article comprehensible.

    Before coming to the subject under discussion there is an important principle which needs to be discussed.

    HOW DOES THE QUR'AN EXPLAIN ITS SUBJECTS ?

    The Qur'an is not like an ordinary book whose chapters are bifurcated according to subject at one place, rather the Quran has its topics scattered within its Sura's (Chapters) at many places. So if one needs to understand a topic then he has to look into all the locations within the Qur'an where that subject occurs and compile all the verses related to it. If we do this excersize, then we observe that all the verses about one particular subject explain and clarify each other. And once we organize those verses according to subject, we see what it really is that the Qur'an is saying about that topic.This manner of Qur'anic study is not my own invention but already presented in the Qur'an.The following verses identify this aspect:

    "And thus do We REPEAT the Ayat <nussariful Ayat> and that they may say: You have read; and that We may make it clear to a people who know." (6:105)

    "And certainly We have REPEATED <sarrafna> for men in this Quran every kind of similitude, but most men do not consent to aught but denying." (17:89)

    It is by repeating the Ayat at different places within the Quran that Allah discusses different subjects, and by gathering and analyzing those Ayat, we get the explanation <Tafseel> of the Book of Allah, as said in the following verse:

    "And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the book, <tafseel al Kitab> there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds." (10:37)

    The above verse informs us that the Quran is itself <Tafseel al Kitab>, i.e. "A detailed explanation of the Book". Whatever may be the subject under discussion, the Quran elucidates it by it self. What is not clear in one verse is clarified through some other passage of the Qur'an itself. So it is by this method that research should be conducted on the Qur'an, and it is by this method that this topic will be presented to you.

    ASCENSION AND SECOND COMING OF JESUS - THE ORIGIN OF THIS BELIEF

    It is popular among many that Jesus was not crucified but 'taken up into heaven alive' and will be coming back before the Day of Judgement. Almost all over the World, many people have this belief as an article of faith.Where does this belief originate from? In very clear terms it is to be found in the Bible. Here are some references:

    ASCENSION OF JESUS:

    "So then, after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was RECEIVED UP INTO HEAVEN,AND SAT ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD." - MARK 16:19

    "And it came to pass,while he blessed them, he was parted from them, AND CARRIED UP INTO HEAVEN."- LUKE 24:51

    SECOND COMING:

    "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, HE WAS TAKEN UP; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold,two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said,'Ye men of Galilee,why stand ye gazing up into heaven? THIS SAME JESUS,WHICH IS TAKEN UP FROM YOU INTO HEAVEN, SHALL SO COME IN LIKE MANNER AS YE HAVE SEEN HIM GO INTO HEAVEN."- ACTS 1: 9 - 11

    "And behold, I COME QUICKLY; and my reward is with me,to give every man according as his work shall be."- REVELATION 22:12

    The above verses from the Christian Bible leave no ambiguity in demonstrating that the Ascension and Second coming of Jesus are
    Christian ideas. Further more the Jews also have the concept of a 'Promised Messiah', and 'Ascension into heaven' as stated in the
    Jewish scriptures. ideas. Further more the Jews also have the concept of a

    "And it came to pass,as they still went on,and talked,that,behold,there appeared a chariot of fire,and horses of fire,and parted them both asunder;AND ELIJAH WENT UP BY A WHIRLWIND INTO HEAVEN." 2 KINGS 2:11

    "And Enoch walked with God; and he was not; FOR GOD TOOK HIM."- GENESIS 5:24

    Apart from these many other faiths also have the concept of a coming 'Saviour' and Ascensions in body or spirit. As we have seen that this faith is that of the Jews and the Christians, now let us proceed to see as to what does Al-Qur'an say about this matter. It should be kept in mind that to be a Muslim one has to believe in and agree with what the Qur'an is saying. Even the slightest disagreement with the Qur'an invalidates the claim to be a Muslim. (See 41:26)

    DEPARTURE OF JESUS FROM THIS WORLD - A QURANIC PERSPECTIVE

    When Jesus (p) propagated the message of Allah, and invited people to obey the laws of Allah alone, the Religious leaders and Priests felt threatened, as in a Social order where subservience and obedience is only for Allah's Laws, there is no room left for the Clergy and they in turn showed severe opposition to the mission of Jesus:

    "But when Isa perceived UNBELIEF <kufr> on their part, he said Who will be my helpers in Allah's way? The disciples said: We are helpers (in the way) of Allah: We believe in Allah and bear witness that we are submitting ones <Muslims>." (3:52)

    Now the unbelievers in Jesus' message plotted to stop the message of Allah from gaining ground, so they plotted against the person of Jesus.

    "And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah." (3:54)

    But Jesus himself stated that the unbelievers would not be able to kill him but instead his death would be in peace:

    "And PEACE IS ON ME on the day I was born, and on the DAY THAT I DIE, and on the day I am raised to life." (19:33)

    Allah himself assured Jesus that the unbelievers will not kill him, instead it is Allah who will complete his period of life and cause him to die, as said in the following verse:

    "Lo ! God said:`O Jesus! Verily I shall cause thee to die,and shall exalt thee unto me,and cleanse thee of those who are bent on denying the truth;and I shall place those who follow thee above those who are bent on denying the truth,unto the day of resurrection.In the end unto Me you all must return,and I shall judge between you with regard to all on which you were wont to differ." (3:55) Muhammed Asad's translation.

    The expression in arabic <MUTE VA FEEKA> comes from the root word <VAFFA> which carries the meaning of 'Completing something or some task to such an extent that nothing else is left out'. In the same manner <Vafaat> means 'Death',as in Death the life term of a person is fully completed. Following are some references from Standard Arabic dictionaries which tell us about the meaning of the word <VAFFAT>.

    'VAFFAT' = "Death", "Decease" (An advanced Learners Arabic-English Dictionary by H.Anthony Salmone pp1222)

    'VAFFAT' = "Death", "Demise", "Decease" (Al Mawrid Arabic-English Dictionary pp 1240)

    'TUVAFA' = "To take the life of anyone" (A Dictionary & Glossary of the Koran by J.Penrice pp 161)

    'TUUFFA' = "To die", "Expire", "Pass away", "Give up the ghost", "Breath ones last", "Part ones life" (Al Mawrid Arabic-English Dictionary pp 391)

    In English to Arabic dictionaries ie reverse the meaning of 'vaffat' is again confirmed;

    "DEATH" = 'vaffat' (Al Manar English-Arabic Dictionary pp 157)

    "DEATH" = 'vaffat'(Al Asri English-Arabic Dictionary pp 193)

    "DEMISE" = 'vaffat' (Al Asri English-Arabic Dictionary pp 199)

    "DEMISE" = 'vaffat' (Al Mawrid English-Arabic Dictionary pp 259)

    "DEATH" = 'vaffat' (Al Mawrid Eng Arabic Dictionary pp 251)

    And much more.

    However apart from General Arabic works of Reference, this word has also been used in the sense which conveys the meaning of death or demise or completion of one's life term in the Qur'an it self. The following verses are very clear in ascertaining the meaning of "Vaffa", "Mutavafa" etc in the Qur'an itself. Please check all of these and above in Arabic to confirm them yourself. They are from M.H.Shakir's translation where otherwise stated.

    IN THE QURAN 'TAVAFFA' HAS BEEN USED FOR 'DEATH' IN MANY VERSES:

    "Our Lord! surely we have heard a preacher calling to the faith, saying: Believe in your Lord, so we did believe; Our Lord! forgive us therefore our faults, and cover our evil deeds and MAKE US DIE <TUWAFFANA> with the righteous." (3:193)

    "And you do not take revenge on us except because we have believed in the communications of our Lord when they came to us! Our Lord: Pour out upon us patience and CAUSE US TO DIE <TUWAFFANA> in submission." (7:126)

    "My Lord! Thou hast given me of the kingdom and taught me of the interpretation of sayings: Originator of the heavens and the earth! Thou art my guardian in this world and the hereafter; MAKE ME DIE A MUSLIM <TUWAFFANI MUSLIM AN> and join me with the good." (12:101)

    "But how will it be when the angels CAUSE THEM TO DIE <TAWAFAT'HUM> smiting their backs." (47:27)

    "And (as for) those of you WHO DIE <YUTAWAFFAUNA> and leave wives behind,"(2:234)

    "And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until DEATH TAKES THEM AWAY <YATAWAFFAHUNNE> or Allah opens some way for them." (4:15)

    "And Allah has created you, then He CAUSES YOU TO DIE <YATAWAFFA'KUM> , and of you is he who is brought back to the worst part of life, so that after having knowledge he does not know anything; surely Allah is Knowing, Powerful." (16:70)

    "O people! if you are in doubt about the raising, then surely We created you from dust, then from a small seed, then from a clot, then from a lump of flesh, complete in make and incomplete, that We may make clear to you; and We cause what We please to stay in the wombs till an appointed time, then We bring you forth as babies, then that you may attain your maturity; and of you is he who is CAUSED TO DIE <YUTAWAFFA> , and of you is he who is brought back to the worst part of life.." (22:5)

    "Say: The angel of death who is given charge of you shall CAUSE YOU TO DIE <YATAWAFAAKUM>, then to your Lord you shall be brought back." (32:11)

    The above verses are very distinct and clear in informing us the meaning of 'Yutavafa'.Now let us again see the verse which discusses about Allah's 'Vaffat' to Jesus (p).

    "Lo ! God said:`O Jesus! Verily I shall cause thee to die <inni mutavafeeka>, and shall exalt thee unto me,and cleanse thee of those who are bent on denying the truth;and I shall place those who follow thee above those who are bent on denying the truth,unto the day of resurrection.In the end unto Me you all must return,and I shall judge between you with regard to all on which you were wont to differ."- [3:55] Muhammed Asad's translation.

    In above Allah clearly informs that He will complete Jesus' life on earth, and this is confirmed again, namely that Jesus had to die a natural death, when we are reminded through Jesus himself stating on the Last Day:

    "I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst CAUSE ME TO DIE <TAVAFAYTANI>, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things" (5:117 M.H.Shakir)

    In above verse Jesus' statement that :

    "..when Thou didst cause me to die..<fallamatavafaaytani>"

    Is confirming what Allah had earlier said to him in 3:55:

    "..Verily I shall cause thee to die...<inni mutavafeeka> "

    In other words Jesus was neither crucified nor taken up into heaven but Allah caused him to die a natural death, i.e. fully completed his life span.
    (Note: Please click HERE , read the end part of that article, to learn more on the subject of the Last Days of Jesus and about Sheikh Ahmed Deedat's SWOON theory and the CRUCI-FICTION of Jesus).

    Then in the above mentioned verse 5:117 Jesus is saying:

    "..and I was a witness of them AS LONG AS I WAS AMONG THEM..<WA KUNTU ALAYHIM SHAHIDUN MAA DUMTU FEEHIM>.." And further he says; "...but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them..<FALAMA TAVAFAYTANI KUNTA ANTAr RAQIBA ALAYHIM>."

    Here Jesus clearly mentions two periods, one in which he dwelt among his people, and the other in which Allah caused him to die. There is no other period mentioned here which informs of a stage of being taken up and stationed in heaven temporarily. Furthermore in 19:31 he says:

    "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be and hath enjoined on me Prayer (Salat) and Charity (Zakat)as long as I live." (19:31)

    In above verse the words "..as long as I live.." bear some importance. Jesus is to establish Salat and give Zakat AS LONG AS HE LIVES. Now if we accept that Jesus is taken up into heaven alive, then how is he performing these activities up there? He mentions that Allah has enjoined Salat and Zakat on him AS LONG AS HE LIVES <MAA DUMTU HAY'YAA>. Now some one can say that in heaven he may be performing Salat. But what about Zakat? Are there any Orphans and Unfortunate persons in heaven as well to whom Jesus is paying Zakat? Does God have any poor people in heaven too? Giving Zakat in heaven would say that in heaven there are poor people! Does this make any sense?!

    The above verse is very clear in informing that as long as Jesus lived this earth, he performed these activities, i.e. Salat and Zakat, and Allah caused him to die a natural death. Now we come to the other issue which creates confusion for people, that is, Jesus being raised unto God.

    ALLAH RAISED JESUS TO HIMSELF - WHAT DOES THAT MEAN ?

    The opponents of Jesus (p) wanted to depict that Jesus was false in his position as a Messenger of God, and wanted to have him crucified.Crucifixion would mean that Jesus was a (Allah forbid us) cursed person and his death was a cursed death. As crucifixion is mentioned in Jewish law (Old testament) as a punishment for blasphemy, and the crucified person is considered cursed and degraded in God's law (According to the Jews). Their Book says:

    "His body shall not remain all night upon the tree,but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day;(for he that is hanged is accursed of Godthat thy land be not defiled,which the Lord thy God giveth thee for inheritence."- DEUTERONOMY 21:23

    In the New Testament it is also said that Jesus (p) died an accursed death (Astaghfirullah):

    "Christ hath redeemed us,from the CURSE of the law,being made a CURSE for us: for it is written, CURSED IS EVERYONE THAT HANGETH ON A TREE."- GALATIANS 3:13

    It is evident from above that the unbelievers want to show the world that Jesus being hanged on the cross died a cursed death, and this boast of theirs is also mentioned in the Qur'an;

    "That they said (in boast) We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary the Apostle of God.." (4:157)

    But Allah confirmed in the Qur'an that Jesus did not live a cursed life nor died a cursed death but on the contrary he enjoys an exalted and honourable status from Allah. This is what is said in 3:55, that: <Yaa essa inni mutavafeeka wa ra'afiuka illaya> "..O Jesus! Verily I shall cause thee to die,and shall EXALT thee <RAFI'UKA ILAYA> unto me.."

    The word in above Ayah is <rafi uka> which means elevate you or exalt you.The word <raf'aa> literallymeans 'to raise or elevate', but in the Qur'an it has been used in many verses to convey the meaning of 'Raising one's ranks or status in the sight of Allah' ,and not physical raising up.Some verses are produced here to show that the meaning of <Raf'aa> is to raise in ranks and exalt someone:

    "It is He Who hath made you (His) agents inheritors of the earth: He hath RAISED <RAF'AA> you in ranks some above others: that He may try you in the gifts He hath given you: for thy Lord is quick in punishment: yet He is indeed Oft-forgiving Most Merciful." (6:165)

    "And RAISED <RAF'ANA> high the esteem (in which) thou (art held)?" (94:4)

    Above verse mentioned of raising with degrees or <Zikr>. But in following verses only raising alone is used to convey the meaning of elevation of ranks and exaltation.

    "Also mention in the Book the case of Idris: He was a man of truth (and sincerity) (and) a prophet:" 19:57 "And We RAISED HIM <RAF'A NA HU> to a lofty station." (19:56)

    In above Nabi Idris (p) is being 'raised' to a <makan an alaiya> i.e. a lofty station. This is not that Allah placed him up on a high mountain or sky scraper, but that his rank and status near Allah is exalted and he is elevated in that aspect. Finally the following verse clearly demonstrates that for 'raising' ones rank or status the word <raf aa> alone is used.

    "And if We had pleased, We would certainly have EXALTED him <LE RAFA'NAHU> thereby; but he clung to the earth and followed his low desire, so his parable is as the parable of the dog; if you attack him he lolls out his tongue; and if you leave him alone he lolls out his tongue; this is the parable of the people who reject Our communications; therefore relate the narrative that they may reflect." (7:176)

    It is this exaltation which is mentioned in 7:176 that Allah is mentioning about Jesus in 3:55 and 4:158. The opponents of Jesus want to convey to the World that as Jesus is crucified he has died a cursed death, but Allah refutes this allegation and confirms that he was neither killed nor crucified:

    "That they said (in boast) We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary the Apostle of God ;- but they killed him not nor crucified him but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no (certain) know ledge but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not." (4:157)

    And Allah further negates their insinuation that Jesus had a cursed personality, when Allah himself confirms that his status and rank is not that of a cursed person but of an Exalted and elevated status:

    "Nay God raised him to Himself; and God is Exalted in Power Wise." (4:158)

    The exalted position of Jesus was also confirmed earlier when he was described as;

    "Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah." (3:45)

    Now see the verse again which talks about Jesus' exaltation and see the clear meaning.

    "Lo! God said:`O Jesus! Verily I shall cause thee to die,and shall exalt thee unto me.." (3:55)

    This exaltation of Jesus or raising of his status by Allah is also made clear in another verse where Allah himself affirms:

    Those apostles We endowed with gifts some above others: To one of them God spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit.." (2:253)

    Now if we were to accept the understanding that Jesus was physically raised 'to Allah' then this would mean that Allah is sitting someplace in heaven and one needs to travel up to him. Such an idea about God is un Quranic and is an invention of Jewishand Christian theology, where they have a concept of 'Holy father in heaven'. But the Qur'an on the other hands informs us clearly that Allah (God) is not sitting someplace high up in heaven but:

    "..He is with you wherever you are.." (57:4)

    "..Nowhere is there a secret counsel between three persons but He is the fourth of them, nor (between) five but He is the sixth of them, nor less than that nor more BUT HE IS WITH THEM WHERESOEVER THEY ARE.." (58:7)

    "..We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein." (50:16)

    "And We are nearer to it( the human soul) than you, BUT YOU DO NOT SEE." (56:85)

    The above verses clearly negate the concept of a 'Father (or God situated) in Heaven' or God confined to a space, so that to reach him you need to travel up into heaven.This concept that God is confined in heaven is a Jewish and Christian idea, clearly mentioned at many places in the Bible. But the Qu'ran does not uphold this view and on the contrary clearly negates it. God is not restricted to time and space but His presence is everywhere, all the time but we cannot see or comprehend it.So again the idea of God stationed someplace in heaven and Jesus ascending unto Him is not verified by the Qur'an.

    Now many people also give the argument that when Allah talks about Jesus being raised to Him, then it says: "..Verily I shall cause thee to die,and shall exalt thee UNTO ME.." (3:55)

    In this verse the words <wa ra fi'uka ILLAYA> they claim, denotes that, since Allah says he will raise Jesus TO HIMSELF or 'Unto me' ( <illaya> in Arabic) then this suggests that Jesus was taken to heaven as it says he was raised 'towards' Allah, and already they are under the influence of the idea that God is stationed some place in heaven, a concept which the Qur'an most certainly negates.

    But again if we analyse this through many other places in the Quran we clearly see that when Allah says about calling or bringing something closer to himself,doesnt mean physically bringing that object near Him.The arabic preposition <illaya> used in 3:55 and the word <ilayhi> used in 4:158 convey the meaning of Allah raising Jesus towards Him.Now Let us analyse from other Ayat what does <illaya> and <illayhi> i.e. getting near or going to Allah mean?

    Following verses describe this namely <illaya> or <illayhi> has not been used for Jesus (p) alone but also for other objects:

    "Have you not considered (the work of) your Lord, how He extends the shade? And if He had pleased He would certainly have made it stationary; then We have made the sun an indication of it. Then We take it to Ourselves, <summa qabadnaahu 'ILLAYNA> taking little by little." (25: 45-46)

    Above verse informs that Allah takes the Sun to His self <summa qabadnahu 'illayna> Does this mean that the Sun goes to visit Allah on the seventh heaven or someplace like that?

    Again this going or calling to Allah has been mentioned not in a physical aspect but a metaphorical one. Nabi Lut (p) informs:

    "And Lut believed in Him, and he said: I am fleeing to my Lord,<inni muhaajirun 'ILLAA rabii> surely He is the Mighty, the Wise." (29:26)

    Lut's hijrat to Allah was not to the seventh heaven,but to such an environment where he can obey and implement the commands of Allah.This is again confirmed through Ibrahim (p):

    "He said: 'I will go to my Lord! <inni zahibun ILLAA rabii> He will surely guide me!"(37:99)

    In the above verse Ibrahim did not go to the heavens to meet His Sustainer, but abandoned the environment of Shirk and went to such an environemt where he could establish the 'Deen' of Allah.This is metaphorically described in above verse as <zahibun illaa rabi> or going to my Sustainer.And not physically going up into heaven or someplace like that.The above verses very clearly describe what is meant by <illaya> or <illayhi>.Now keep the above usage of the verses and one more time look at the verses where Allah talks about His raising Jesus to himself.

    "Nay God raised him to Himself, <bar rafa-'a-hullahu 'ILLAHYI> and God is Exalted in Power Wise." (4:158)

    In above Allah nullifies the claim of opponents of Jesus that he was cursed being crucified on the cross, but confirms that his status is honoured and exalted.This is what is meant by <bar rafa-'a-hullahu 'illayhi> and what was previously confirmed by Allah in 3:55: <inni mutavafeeka wa rafi uka illaya>

    The Qur'an negates the crucifixion of Jesus, and informs that he did not have a cursed life or death.The punishment of crucifixion occurs in the Qur'an as well for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger.(See 5:33)

    To sum it up again, Allah is not confined to a place or station up in the heavens.We have seen verses negating this idea.Allah caused Jesus to die a natural death.The word <vaffat> has been seen at many places in the Quran to mean death, and this has also been confirmed by dictionaries.Then <rafa-a> and <illaya> have been confirmed through other verses where these words occur and we have seen what meaning they convey through the Quran itself.

    SIMILARITY BETWEEN ADAM (MANKIND) AND JESUS (P.B.U.H)

    The verse which mentions about example of Jesus (p) to that of Adam is self explanatory and itself informs that in what manner is Jesus like Adam.The Christians have been going to extremes regarding Jesus' personality and giving him a divine status.But Allah informs:

    "Surely the likeness of Jesus is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was." (3:59)

    As Adam was created by Allah with the command <kun fa yakun> i.e. "Be and he was", so is the manner of Jesus' creation in the sight of Allah. This verse is further made clear in 3:47 when the Malaika (force appointed for delivering divine commands) gave the good news to Mary, it informed her:

    "..Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is." (3:47)

    The words used in 3:47 for Jesus' birth in Arabic <fa innama ya-quulu lahuu'KUN'-fa-yakuun> "He only says to it, Be, and it is." are conveying the same meaning as that mentioned about Adam's creation i.e. <summaa qaala-lahu- 'KUN'-fa- yakuun> "then said to him, Be, and he was.".

    It is in this aspect that Jesus is likened to Adam, i.e. in their creation with the will (Law) of Allah (not comparison with clay or being sent down from heaven) but both were created by the command of Allah i.ee <Kun'-fa-yakuun> or "Be and it is". Comparing these two verses makes this similiarity very clear.

    WHAT IS MEANT BY JESUS BEING THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE HOUR?

    The verse quoted from Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation, which mentions Jesus as being a Sign for the coming of the Hour and implying that before the last day he will descend to earth once again, is not a correct representation from the Arabic. The verse in Yusuf Ali's translation says:

    "And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour) but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way." (43:61)

    But in Arabic it says: <Wa 'innahuu la-:ilmul-lis-Saa-'ti>

    "And most surely he (Jesus) is knowledge of the hour, therefore have no doubt about it and follow me: this is the right path."(43:61 M.H.Shakir)

    Here it says that He (Jesus) is <ILM U LISAA-TI> i.e. Knowledge of the Hour. Now in the Qur'an the only Messenger who is mentioned by name to be questioned by Allah on the last day,and giving his answers to them is none else but Jesus (p). It is through his answers in the Qur'an that we are informed about the <ILM> or Knowledge of what is going to happen in that Hour, i.e. the Day of Judgement. And that is clarified through the Quran when it describes the complete manner what Jesus will be questioned about and his replies concerning the Christians, thus he is conveying that knowledge about the hour to us in the Quran so that we can amend our lives before hand (In case we are having wrong concepts about his personality as the Christians do). The verses where the knowledge of the hour is being conveyed to us through Jesus are as follows:

    "And when Allah will say: 'O Jesus the son of Mary! Did you say to people, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah?' He will say: 'Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things. 1 did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things. If Thou shouldst chastise them, then surely they are Thy servants; and if Thou shouldst forgive them, then surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.' Allah will say: 'This is the day when their truth shall benefit the truthful ones; they shall have gardens beneath which rivers flow to abide in them for ever: Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Allah; this is the mighty achievement." (5:116-119)

    The knowledge of what is happening on that hour is related with Jesus in the Qur'an as he is the only messenger who is mentioned by name in being questioned on the Last Day,and through his answers we are getting the knowledge of what is going to happen on that hour.
    --------------

    GIVING GOOD NEWS OF AHMAD (S.A.W)

    The most important verse in this subject is the one in which he prophecises Ahmed, i.e. Muhammad (S.A.W). When Allah informed Jesus that He will cause him to die, Jesus gave the following lecture to the Children of Israel:

    "And when Jesus the son of Mary said: 'O children of Israel! surely I am the Messenger of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat and giving the good news of a Messenger who will come after me, <yaati mim ba-di> his name being Ahmad.' But when he came to them with clear arguments they said: This is clear magic." (61:6)

    In the above verse the Arabic words <yaati mim ba-di> are very important for the topic under discussion.This clearly indicates that Ahmad (Muhammad S.A.W) is to come AFTER Jesus departed from the world, and not before or while Jesus is in any interim state in heaven, but after Jesus has left the world. This is further clarified if we relate this verse with 5:117 where Jesus answers the question Allah has asked him:

    "..and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them,.." (5:117)

    and in 61:6 he says;

    "..giving the good news of a Messenger who will come after me, his name being Ahmad.." (61:6)

    It is evident from above that Jesus was to be a witness on them as long as he was among his people, and when Allah caused him to die or completed his life term it is Allah who is a watcher over them, as said in the same verse:

    "..but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things." (5:117)

    And before Jesus left he foretold the coming of Muhammad (SAW) who was to come after he had left. I think if someone goes thruogh the above verses with out any preconcieved ideas he will realize that Jesus had left the world before Muhammad's arrival.

    THE UN QUR'ANIC CONCEPT OF SECOND COMING OF JESUS - A FOUNDATION FOR CULTS AND CLAIMANTS TO PROPHETHOOD

    We have seen clearly that this idea of Ascension and second coming of Jesus is an idea from the Jewish and Christian scriptures and cannot be confirmed in the Qur'an. On the contrary the Qur'an denies such concepts. Now using the advantage of this concept of second coming there has been the emergence of many cults and many persons had proclaimed themselves to be the 'Promised Messiah' and sometimes the 'Mahdi' who is to come in the last days. Such pretenders manipulate the simple people and usually take advantage of the emotions of their followers. In Christiandom this concept has resulted in numerous doomsday cults, whose founders claimed to be Jesus in his second coming and called that the end of the world is near. Such had many emotional devotees who were inspired by the charm of their charasmatic leaders, but unfortunately some met a terrible end. Examples of such are many. The likes of David Koresh made headlines in the World press during the recent years. Also in the South Asian Subcontinent there emerged a very controversial figure who also proclaimed himself as the Promised messiah and claimed Divine Prophethood and messengership for himself, thereby fooling many people. This concept of a Promised Messiah has made the Muslims very weak, and many seem critical of themselves and demonstrate despair at the declining state of the Muslim World and instead lay their hopes not on their own talents but on a Messiah who will come to take them out from their misery.

    Now the Qur'an nowhere says that any reformer will come in the last century or that any Messiah will come to take the Ummah out of its bad conditions. On the contrary we are clearly told that Muhammed (SAW) is the last and final Messenger (See 34:28, 6:115, 33:40, and 3:144) and the Qur'an is a detailed book which has everything which Mankind needs for guidance. (See 16:89 , 6:114) And by following the Quran will we be able to improve our conditions (See 5:15-16 , 20:124), not by some 'saviour' descending from heaven to solve our problems. Our problems will not be solved untill or unless we return to the Qur'an and take its opinions as the final authority for all matters. Our destiny is not linked to any Messiah, but is in our own hands.

    "This is because Allah has never changed a favor which He has conferred upon a people until they change their own condition; and because Allah is Hearing, Knowing;" (8:53)

    Kashif Ahmed Shehzada


    ***************

    I hope you have read all of the article.

    Comment


      #3
      Abdul Basit, I wish I could read all of it, perhaps it would be better if you have just linked the site instead of pasting the whole thing, as it is

      now in few words tell me what do you want to infer from your above reply, there are many points raised, perhaps you can pick one so that it can be comprehended comfortably.

      wa'salam
      zameen tumhara kuch nahin bigar sakhtee, ger aasman say taluq pukhta ho....

      Comment


        #4
        IF you read the whole thing you will know what point I want to infer.

        I will give you the link in the next reply, I don't have it available at this time.

        Again, read it all you will understand, if you want to.

        Comment


          #5

          Zalim

          Before I give you an answer on my view regarding the Ascension v Death issue surrounding Hazrat Isa AS. I would just like to pose a question to you.

          You quite clearly believe that Hazrat Isa AS did NOT ascend to the Heavens alive, but in death. You have pasted a lengthy article using the Arabic language and it's translations in order to support your claim.

          If this is genuinely the case, then why do the Ahmedies believe that Hazrat Isa AS is buried in Kashmir?

          Surely to be buried in Kashmir, Hazrat Isa AS would of had to either return to earth from Death as the Messiah, and then die, therefore nullifying Mirza Ghulams claim of the Messiah. Furthermore, if this is the case, then Mirza Ghulam cannot also be accepted as the Al-Mehdi as he would not be eligible due to the original lie of claiming Messiah-Hood when Hazrat Isa AS had already fulfilled the Prophecy by returning.

          Or,

          If you accept that Hazrat Isa AS is not buried in Kashmir, then the whole Ahmedie movement has constituted the biggest LIE for making people believe that this is so. How can a Liar convince any one of the Truth. This logic will then have to be applied to the founder Mirza Ghulam Ahmed.

          The Qur'aan quite clearly tells us that Allah raised Hazrat Isa AS before the perpetrators could harm him in Isreal and not Kashmir!

          So which opinion do you hold concerning Hazrat Isa AS from the above.

          Comment


            #6
            Who invested Cust&Paste??? Bring him to me I want to with him.

            Abdul Basit,

            You dont have to cut&paste to prove somthing. You could just point to URL and add your own comments.

            Are you scare to speak on this topic?

            ------------------
            "Away from Eyes......Close to Heart"

            Comment


              #7
              I think ayat 4:157 should help u in ur discussion ......

              That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-


              ------------------
              Its our Wits that make us MEN .... 'Braveheart'

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Insaaniat:
                Who invested Cust&Paste??? Bring him to me I want to with him.

                Abdul Basit,

                You dont have to cut&paste to prove somthing. You could just point to URL and add your own comments.

                Are you scare to speak on this topic?

                You should be thankful that I am not speaking on this topic, trust me.

                Its good to use other means to shut someone off, rather than wasting my own energy on convincing someone who has taken something as false as prophethood of Mirza Ghulam and has no basis in Islam which Muhammed(saw) brought and is totally illogical if looked upon with a sound mind.

                p.s - I have been replying to those topics but none of your Qadianis care to reply to my short replies... I wonder why?

                Just for the heck of it:

                What makes Mirza Ghulam a Prophet? (I want an answer in short[5-20lines] paragraph, please.)

                Comment


                  #9
                  well Basit "qadianis" did reply to this type of threads many times. So you can read those threads BUT if you want to!!!

                  if it does not go against your beliefs then please read these threads because they might show you true beauty of Islam and specially Quran.

                  ------------------
                  "Away from Eyes......Close to Heart"

                  [This message has been edited by Insaaniat (edited June 14, 2001).]

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Insaaniat:
                    well Basit "qadianis" did reply to this type of threads many times. So you can read those threads BUT if you want to!!!

                    if it does not go against your beliefs then please read these threads because they might show you true beauty of Islam and specially Quran.


                    Insaaniyaat, no need to get too emotional about it.

                    I want reply on my queries, not one someones elses. If they replied to those threads, they replied to someone elses replies. Now, that does not automatically infer that it has my reply in it.

                    Twisting meaning of Koraan and Authentic Ahaadeeth is not beauty of Islam, its mockery of Islam and I see that happening in Qadiani replies.

                    Comment


                      #11

                      All Ahmedies/Qadianis

                      I originally posted this query for Zalim, but I will now extend this to you all:

                      Before I give you an answer on my view regarding the Ascension v Death issue surrounding Hazrat Isa AS. I would just like to pose a question to you.

                      You quite clearly believe that Hazrat Isa AS did NOT ascend to the Heavens alive, but in death. You have pasted a lengthy article using the Arabic language and it's translations in order to support your claim.

                      If this is genuinely the case, then why do the Ahmedies believe that Hazrat Isa AS is buried in Kashmir?

                      Surely to be buried in Kashmir, Hazrat Isa AS would of had to either return to earth from Death as the Messiah, and then die, therefore nullifying Mirza Ghulams claim of the Messiah. Furthermore, if this is the case, then Mirza Ghulam cannot also be accepted as the Al-Mehdi as he would not be eligible due to the original lie of claiming Messiah-Hood when Hazrat Isa AS had already fulfilled the Prophecy by returning.

                      Or,

                      If you accept that Hazrat Isa AS is not buried in Kashmir, then the whole Ahmedie movement has constituted the biggest LIE for making people believe that this is so. How can a Liar convince any one of the Truth. This logic will then have to be applied to the founder Mirza Ghulam Ahmed.

                      The Qur'aan quite clearly tells us that Allah raised Hazrat Isa AS before the perpetrators could harm him in Isreal and not Kashmir!

                      So which opinion do you hold concerning Hazrat Isa AS from the above.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Sholay, I will take you for the time machine ride from Crucifixion to Cashmir.. just be patient and go with the flow..

                        for now this is not the matter of concern whether he died in Kashmir or any other place.. (or Mirza Ghulam Ahmad being a liar or true person). I think we are discussing his ASCENSION vs DEATH only from Quran. Please dont pull the topic off track.

                        But for your curiosity you may read this brief reply [a place called "Srinagar" and a man called "Yuz Asaf"].. I will talk on this issue later.

                        lets not distract other readers and return to the topic.

                        I raised a question you replied with a verse, I rejected your translation from Quran.. and in return you again saying The Qur'aan quite clearly tells us that Allah raised Hazrat Isa AS

                        Show me where else in quran it says He was RAISED ALIVE?
                        • >>PS: this thread is not concerned about Ahmadiasm or last Prophet, so please avoid.<<



                        [This message has been edited by Zalim (edited June 14, 2001).]
                        zameen tumhara kuch nahin bigar sakhtee, ger aasman say taluq pukhta ho....

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Twisting meaning of Koraan and Authentic Ahaadeeth is not beauty of Islam, its mockery of Islam and I see that happening in Qadiani replies.


                          Well Sholay,

                          Ahmdies too believ that you guys twist the Quranic meanings and Ahaadeeth aswell. [B] So what if they prove that mnay other Ullemah (Not Ahmadies) did the same meaning of verse will you accept it or you think they also twist the Hadith and Quran? where this claim of twisting will end??



                          ------------------
                          "Away from Eyes......Close to Heart"

                          Comment


                            #14

                            Zalim

                            This reply is specifically for you.

                            Please read very carefully and digest!

                            That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. 4:157-158.


                            When you KILL someone it means DEATH and there are no two ways about it. When someone is NOT killed it means LIFE.

                            Allah Himself is confirming that Jesus did not DIE!

                            The Qur'aan confirms that Jesus ASCENDED!

                            Now can you please answer my questions that I posed earlier regarding Jesus in Kashmir.

                            Take your time!

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by sholay:

                              Zalim

                              This reply is specifically for you.

                              Please read very carefully and digest!

                              That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. 4:157-158.

                              Take your time!
                              Incase someone misses the verse.



                              [This message has been edited by Abdul Basit (edited June 14, 2001).]

                              Comment

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