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    GOD--is IT for real?

    Why should there be GOD?

    Why can't we just believe in ourselves?
    If we know we are going to die one day? Can that information not be enough for our salvation to act HUMBLE in this world?

    Please answer without quoting any HOLY book, or HOLY PERSON. Argue with your own intellect.

    Just think of yourselves As HUMANS FIRST, not a MUSLIM, HINDU, or JEW or any other mono-poly-isthic relegions ever invented on earth.
    What will happen if we NEVER had any religion.

    Peace on earth is abstract. Hapiness is abstract and a MINDSET, If we agree(iff we agree) that peace is an unattainable idlistic approach to world whee would we be?

    if Morality changes from person to person than why social circle is norm? Who decides that?


    ------------------
    cogito ergo sum... "I think therefore I am..." & "I am therefore I think"

    #2
    To me (and I am thinking as a science student....) the evolution of humans is so complicated as to be completely impossible to rationalise by Darwin's ideas - hence there must be a God. Let me expand.....

    Random evolution, the creation of any life-form without divine guidance, requires so many freak coincidences as to be impossible to imagine. Okay, amino acids have been proven to exist in space, but for a bunch of amino acid to enter the atmosphere intact, to approach each other at the right orientation and with sufficient energy to allow molecular orbitals to overlap for bonds to form, for these larger molecules to react more and more for the first proteins to form seems to require an extraordinary concidence. For these proteins to then have reacted correctly to for the first strand of nucleic acid seems a further extraordinary coincidence. For this single, isolated strand to have survived in atmospheric conditions is another extraordinary coincidence.

    For this strand of nucleic formed in such a way to be programmed to create structures leading to the first cell seems to be an coincidence. For this cell to come together for the first time with the correct genetic programming to collect energy from the environment is another coincidence.

    And so on..... every step in the development of the cell into the next organism, and then for a diveristy of organisms, and eventually right up to the first sentient species, seems to require an extraordinary coincidence.

    Now consider the mathematics.

    If each extraordinary coincidence, say had a tiny likelyhood, say on average 0.000001% (and that's being generous). Statistical law stipulates that that the probabality of eevents A, B and C all happening is:

    p(A)*p(B)*p(C), where p(A) is the probability of event A happening, and so on.

    Now in the previous scenario, even if random evolution only required 1000 extraordinary coincidences to achieve, say, an elephant, each extraordinary coincidence with a probability of 0.000001%, the likelyhood of
    an elephant evolving would be

    (0.000001^1000)%
    where ^ means "to the power of"

    Now given that 1000 is a very very low number of extraordinary coincidences that would be required, the odds are incredibly heavily stacked against the evolution of humans, which are incredibly complex compared to elephants. In fact, the evolution of humans by pure chance appears to be downright impossible.

    Thus I feel that there should be a God because that is the only plausible reason for our existence.

    I could also, if you like, go into a whole motherload of freak coincidences if you like, but that would realy serve little purpose and would just waste my time
    Muslims are so good at dividing that they can divide the atom. If you see two Muslims, probably they belong to 3 parties.
    Al-Ghazali

    Comment


      #3
      mixing science and religion is never a good idea.
      Mad Scientist, you didnt take into account the duration over which evolution happened, we are used to a different time frame and its hard for us to fathom. I think we are overly impressed with nature, kinda like how kids get impressed with magic tricks.
      I recently worked on a project where we used this sort of randomness, and the results always leave you impressed, about 7 out of 10 times they were better than what a human would have done.

      Comment


        #4
        I agree with maani and mad scientist both. All of us know tat evolution or religion both are such things that we can fight about it for the rest of our lives.

        Mad scientist...I am not even worried about HOW WE ARE CREATED. WHAT was our beginning? WHO MADE US? WHY WE ARE HERE.

        I AM more worried about AS LONG AS WE ARE HERE WHAT MUST WE DO AS A HUMAN...

        So far all the religions of the world even the devil worshiping has merits and guidance to better our lives. Whether that idea involved GOD in it or evolution.

        My thing every human being has following good and bad

        weaknesses
        insecurities


        Kindness
        Always help others.

        Above all ALL of us only SRIVE for happiness...

        So in weakness we tend to over look our strengths and in insecurities we shun our selves into more weakness of character(watever may that be)

        I found it very hard to accept the NORMS of any culture present today. I agree with goodness of GITA, commandments of MOSSES, Powers of JESUS, and INFLUENCE of an illiterate man named MOHAMAD who single handedly made it possible for people to organize and coordinate themselves.

        But I also believe that after all these people died their ideology died with them because everyone of the followers created a greater mess cos they interpreted THEIR ideologies through their own experiences. JOHN said He should leave his wife and take cyllebecy(wrong spelling) so catholics were born similar to the idea of BUDDHA who left his throne and famly to get NIRVANA and thus created BUDDHISM. Shias want cliphs to go to hell trying to deny the most important part of history that CALIPHS are part of ISLAMIC HISTORY and it was because of first three CALIPHS ISLAM spread all over the world. SUnnis never denied IMAMS importance but in retaliation to SHIAS concepts they had to get pissed off,hence more offshoots like deobandi, ahmadi, etc, etc...

        All this was only for one reason: KEEP everyone happy.

        MOST of all keep oneself happy.

        As humans we all feel

        happy, sad, angry, sleepy, tired, inlove, in lust, inferior to others superior to others, and soon.
        When one human fails to see that the actual nature of him/her is still lost in space cos the religion(any religion) failed to make them over come those feelings he or she feels left out.

        My point is on that. When we fail to be recognized we invent things, we create things, so we can feel alive, get rid of boredom and lonliness. If we can't we then become a great threat for ourselves FIRST and then for others.

        Religion or no religion, GOD or no GOD, we are born in a certain gograhical locations, evolution , probabilty whateer it is. HOw we behave and act is entirley different thing.

        PLease tell me if you agree or disagree.
        Again PLease leave GOD aside, whether HE?SHE created this earth and hevaens or not.
        Why cante we just have enough FAITH in ourselves to overcome our most nsecurities.
        If we cant then acceting them is the first step?????????



        ------------------
        cogito ergo sum... "I think therefore I am..." & "I am therefore I think"

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Philosopher:

          I AM more worried about AS LONG AS WE ARE HERE WHAT MUST WE DO AS A HUMAN...
          And this is the fundamental difference inour opinions.

          The view that I take is FOR WHAT PURPOSE AM I HERE, AND HOW DO I FULFILL THAT PURPOSE?

          As far as I can make out, my purpose is to worship my Creator through obeying his commands.



          [This message has been edited by mAd_ScIeNtIsT (edited June 02, 2001).]
          Muslims are so good at dividing that they can divide the atom. If you see two Muslims, probably they belong to 3 parties.
          Al-Ghazali

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by maani:
            mixing science and religion is never a good idea.
            Mad Scientist, you didnt take into account the duration over which evolution happened, we are used to a different time frame and its hard for us to fathom. I think we are overly impressed with nature, kinda like how kids get impressed with magic tricks.
            I recently worked on a project where we used this sort of randomness, and the results always leave you impressed, about 7 out of 10 times they were better than what a human would have done.
            Well as far as I can see, evolution had the opportunity to occur over billions of years. I am purely looking at the problem from a viewpoint of the chemical reactions that must have taken place during this time to lead up to the creation of large life-forms (me being a chemistry degree student). The chemistry of life is so incredibly complex, so incredibly balance, that I fail to see how a living system could come to exist randomly, even given billions of years.

            To me, the existence of life itself is a testimony to God's existence.

            Oh, and I for one cannot separate science from religion, or for that matter I cannot separate religion from anything as I feel that a true religion manifests itself in every aspect of life.
            Muslims are so good at dividing that they can divide the atom. If you see two Muslims, probably they belong to 3 parties.
            Al-Ghazali

            Comment


              #7
              I look at religion in a different light. In the earlier part of our collective histories, and lack of scientific knowledge and method we were in need of a divine principle. Let me expand.....

              In all religions the basic tenetse are the same. i.e. Thou shalt not kill, steal, adultery, and so on....

              These are basically natural laws that from the Neighbur(sp) or Locke premise that humans are generally bad, and compounded by the Darwinian theory of natural selection prevent us from destroying our species.

              Unfortunately religion has not done a good enough job of becoming universal because it has tried to equate being good with eventual entry into heaven or hell or as a re-incarnate. It makes more sense to equate being good with your own survival thereby improving accountability and not defering responsibility to after-life.

              As to Mad Sci's point about the veracity of a higher power due to the randomness of our existence. It may or may not be true. If it gives us hope for a guiding light and provides security for what we have yet not learned, then great. My problem is with our use of the term God in religion.

              God is created by humans as a security blanket to establish their rights over the limited resources of this world. Thereby, creating different attributes for him/her in different religions. Thus making the one thing that can be a unifying force....keep humanity apart.

              Unfortunately over the course of humanity ,religion had become nothing more than a collection of practices of habit rather than reverrence for divinity. Plus the religious books have become nothing more than history to be interpreted by the reader. Thereby removing sprituality from religion. What we are left with is that hindus don't eat beef and muslims don't eat pork. Catholics cannot eat meat on fridays during lent but fish is o.k..


              I think it's great that due to our different geographies we can call something we don't understand be it science, nature, god.....with different names. But to tell me that one faith is the right faith or one god is the right god is not only expressing control over something we don't understand but results from practice rather than spirituality.



              Comment


                #8
                Any one who wants to appreciate the presence of God, just look around yourself and see various things but if that's not enough to convince you, get up to the space station and look at the earth. I don't think any human could have created a unieverse like that.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Here's another thought from some one else, not mine:

                  The light of God surrounds me;
                  The love of God enfolds me;
                  The power of God protects me;
                  The presence of God watches me over;
                  Where I am, God is !

                  You can substitute Allah if you like but the meaning remains the same.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    You can also substitute Ishwer, Jesus, Yahweh or any other diety that you like.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Mr. Philosopher,


                      To have exact knowledge about God is NOT POSSIBLE USING ONLY THE INTELLECT.

                      Why?

                      Because intellect is not perfact.

                      To Consult Holy Book i.e, Quran is a MUST in order to have the exact knowledge about God.

                      And what about the need of God?

                      Well, Quran itself has stated that man always look for God in bad times.

                      So you just have to analyse your own feelings in your bad times. You shall become aware of need of God.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by babar123:
                        Mr. Philosopher,


                        To have exact knowledge about God is NOT POSSIBLE USING ONLY THE INTELLECT.

                        Why?

                        Because intellect is not perfact.

                        To Consult Holy Book i.e, Quran is a MUST in order to have the exact knowledge about God.

                        And what about the need of God?

                        Well, Quran itself has stated that man always look for God in bad times.

                        So you just have to analyse your own feelings in your bad times. You shall become aware of need of God.

                        That's B.S....one does not need to know the quran to be in touch with god...that is not only presumptuous but also arrogantly abusive towards other religions. I could claim the same by reading the gia or the bible....

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I agree 1000000% with infoman, but infoman, here people come to argue blindly not openly, keep on repeating quran, hadith, etc, etc, outside that they have no clue they feel and believe they are lost.

                          what happens if we have no GOD. Or what happens if you abolish religion. All the religious people think that that would be end of the world, most unlikely. As u said infoman "MAN created religion to gain control..."

                          Morality is not cause of religion. The extreme of any thing may it be religion is simply harmful and hazardous for the humans.

                          There is no GOD but faith in ourselves. and that changes everytime we encounter something new or different or just oout of the ordinary in our lives?

                          ------------------
                          cogito ergo sum... "I think therefore I am..." & "I am therefore I think"

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I get the idea that u dont want to be proven of God's existence.. rather u want to theoretically look over WHY we need God.. or what impact would it have on our life..... Assuming that.. here's what i think.

                            [ Why can't we just believe in ourselves?
                            If we know we are going to die one day? Can that information not be enough for our salvation to act HUMBLE in this world?
                            ]

                            Apparently not. Do you not see how religion converted an illetrate nation into one of learned, behaved, human people? There are many examples in history.

                            [ What will happen if we NEVER had any religion. ]

                            Again, you only need to go through history to find out.

                            [ Peace on earth is abstract. Hapiness is abstract and a MINDSET, If we agree(iff we agree) that peace is an unattainable idlistic approach to world whee would we be?

                            if Morality changes from person to person than why social circle is norm? Who decides that?
                            ]

                            Happiness is a mindset, i agree.. but are we, as humans, strong enough to impose that mindset on ourselves?

                            [ Again PLease leave GOD aside, whether HE?SHE created this earth and hevaens or not.
                            Why cante we just have enough FAITH in ourselves to overcome our most nsecurities.
                            If we cant then acceting them is the first step?????????
                            ]

                            Lets leave God/Religion aside? alrite..

                            The one problem that arises is that we're left without a norm.. why do we need a norm? well, do u see the amount of disagreements between people of different religions? can u imagine the amount of disagreements between people if everyone of us tried to be our own god?

                            You ask.. Why do we need God?.. or Why do we not have enough faith in ourselves to accept our 'insecurities'.. ?

                            Well,
                            Is the concept of God only there to help us overcome our insecurities.. or lets say.. our imperfections? maybe.. and that is simply because we are not God.

                            We need the concept of God to be there to help us define a norm for ourselves, or we'd be rather like animals. We need the concept not because we're insecure, but because we are not.. and can not be perfect.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              [ what happens if we have no GOD. Or what happens if you abolish religion. All the religious people think that that would be end of the world, most unlikely. As u said infoman "MAN created religion to gain control..."

                              Morality is not cause of religion. The extreme of any thing may it be religion is simply harmful and hazardous for the humans.
                              ]

                              Man did NOT create relgion(*). Man just accepted that religion (or a single universal belief) is necessary to regulate our lives.

                              I agree that Morality is not because of religion.. rather morality is built in our nature, religion only enforces it.

                              [ There is no GOD but faith in ourselves. and that changes everytime we encounter something new or different or just oout of the ordinary in our lives? ]

                              Lets accept that there is no God for the sake of discussion. Do you not see how every person would be his own god? God or religion is not there to stop or limit us to a certain belief, rather its there to help us grow, and at the same time prevent a state where everyone's belief would be different(hence creating a lot of trouble!) just because they've seen different things, or been through different experiences.

                              Call it God/Religion.. ANYTHING. It just defines a norm.. and a norm is needed to hold us all together.

                              (*)Man did not.. and could not have created religion(any religion).. religion is something very complex, and its completeness is too much for a human mind to comprehend.. or define.

                              [This message has been edited by ammarr (edited June 03, 2001).]

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