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    jesus as god?

    One thing I dont understand is IF Jesus(AS) was God himself why He used to worship God????????????
    Patta patta boota boota haal hamaara jaane hai
    Jaane na jaane gul he na jaane, baagh to saara jaane hai

    #2
    Re: jesus as god?

    err.. in christianity he is the son of the God.
    in islam he is the prophet, one of the messenger of Allah.

    i dont think he is the God himself in any religion :-/
    - I swear to drunk I am not God :-/

    Comment


      #3
      Re: jesus as god?

      Suroor: In christianity, he is son of God and treated as God... they ask in the name of Jesus.. :-)
      Quite often good things have hurtful consequences. There are instances of men who have been ruined by their money or KILLED by their COURAGE. ~Aristotle

      Comment


        #4
        Re: jesus as god?

        Dont waste your time with this one. This line of thinking will not prove to any Christian that Jesus was (only) mortal. a Christians might answer, for the same reason you read the alphabet to your children. You dont read the alphabet to understand or learn it do you? You simply read it to show your children how to learn it.

        regards,


        bob
        Last edited by bob_chasm; Jun 9, 2005, 01:33 AM.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: jesus as god?

          suroor has it right anwaar

          Bob - Jesus was mortal for a reason, he was not immortal because he had to die. Brush up before you preach christianity,
          "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names." - John F. Kennedy

          "Someday we gonna rise up on that wind you know
          Someday we gonna dance with those lions
          Someday we gonna break free from these chains and keep on flyin'" - flipsyde

          Comment


            #6
            Re: jesus as god?

            Originally posted by minah_pa
            suroor has it right anwaar

            Bob - Jesus was mortal for a reason, he was not immortal because he had to die. Brush up before you preach christianity,
            Yes I should have been more considerate of the hypostatic union argument. Therefore, just to please you, folks this line of argument is not going to help you convince a Paulian Christian to reject the divinity of Jesus. Are we at peace now? By the way, Jesus is fully God according to the Nicene creed.

            regards,


            bob
            Last edited by bob_chasm; Jun 9, 2005, 01:03 AM.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: jesus as god?

              ^ why even raise an argument?

              dont mock another persons faith..
              happy happy happy... happy happy happy

              Comment


                #8
                Re: jesus as god?

                Originally posted by sadzzz
                ^ why even raise an argument?

                dont mock another persons faith..
                Sometimes people are curious and just trying to understand. Other times they can become offensive and rude, which I agree is not right.

                regards,


                bob

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: jesus as god?

                  bob - here is the Nicene Creed. Oh yeah, I think I have said over and over ad nauseum that I am a Catholic and I only speak about my faith. All Catholics are Christians but not all Christians are Catholics. So, if I speak, It is with a Catholic background.

                  If you wish to have someone defend a Paulian (an original christian but now identified as a non-denominational christian offshoot) then find one, I am not one. That would be the same as asking a Shiia to defend a Sunni ritual/belief (get it now?? both are Muslim, but differect sects, different rituals/beliefs).

                  source : http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11049a.htm

                  We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.
                  Allow me to point out to you that the begining of this creed sharply defines both as being seperate and continues to assert that through out. Surprise, surprise, it also actually asserts Jesus was a man. If you don't understand the English used, I can help you tomorrow after I wake up.

                  Once again, I say to you to learn (or just try actually reading) before you preach.
                  Last edited by minah_pa; Jun 9, 2005, 01:25 AM.
                  "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names." - John F. Kennedy

                  "Someday we gonna rise up on that wind you know
                  Someday we gonna dance with those lions
                  Someday we gonna break free from these chains and keep on flyin'" - flipsyde

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: jesus as god?

                    We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.
                    http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/ncd02313.htm

                    consubstantial
                    (Latin: con, with; substantia, substance)

                    A translation of the Greek, homousios, chosen at the Council of Nica (A.D. 325) as the only correct word to express the nature of the Son of God. He is not inferior to the Father, nor posterior, nor merely like unto Him, but identical in substance and in essence with Him. He is truly God, God of very God, consubstantial with the Father, as the Nicene Creed has it, having, or rather, being, the Godhead no less than the Father.


                    New Catholic Dictionary

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: jesus as god?

                      bob - identical means identical does not mean being the same person/being. The are both seperate but the same, doesn't mean they are one.

                      For lack of a better way of saying this (and this is NOT what this is either but the closest thing) it is like a clone.

                      EDIT: Sorry, continuing on......

                      He was God's son, a personification of God on earth (he was NOT God but God personified, seperate but identical). Just as any son is the personification of their father. You may be a different person, you may look different, talk different, have different interests, but a son is a personification of their father because the family lives through the son. It is the same applied here. God was God, Jesus was the personification of God, identical in spirit but seperate.
                      Last edited by minah_pa; Jun 9, 2005, 01:44 AM.
                      "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names." - John F. Kennedy

                      "Someday we gonna rise up on that wind you know
                      Someday we gonna dance with those lions
                      Someday we gonna break free from these chains and keep on flyin'" - flipsyde

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: jesus as god?

                        Originally posted by minah_pa
                        bob - identical means identical does not mean being the same person/being. The are both seperate but the same, doesn't mean they are one.

                        For lack of a better way of saying this (and this is NOT what this is either but the closest thing) it is like a clone.

                        He is not just identical, but identical in substance and in essence with Him. He is truly God. However, the bible says, your LORD is ONE. Hence, they have to be identical in substance and in essence as ONE, truly God, not two clone beings as Gods in substance and essence. Jesus is part of the Godhead of Christianity. He is YHWH. I am not here to to ridicule your belief. That is part of the mystery of your God, so I will just leave it alone at that.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: jesus as god?

                          I knew it was a mistake saying clone, that word sounds horrible, I may just burn in h*ll for that one *uff*.

                          Bob - they are one in essence bcause they are identical, NOT because they are one being. The key point here being in essence. You are not the only one who has a problem grasping this concept, many Catholics and christians have a hard time understanding the Trinity and the relationship between them. If it was all one entity (God) then it could not be a Trinity.

                          My Bible does not say my Lord is one (meaning the same as) - they are one in Spirit, one in essence, but two seperate beings. Otherwise why state over and over and over the Father and the Son. Please do me a favor and give me the passage that says this:
                          However, the bible says, your LORD is ONE.
                          and I will give you the correct interpretation of it.

                          I know you are not here to ridicule, however, you are not as versed as you believe you are.
                          "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names." - John F. Kennedy

                          "Someday we gonna rise up on that wind you know
                          Someday we gonna dance with those lions
                          Someday we gonna break free from these chains and keep on flyin'" - flipsyde

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: jesus as god?

                            Originally posted by minah_pa
                            I knew it was a mistake saying clone, that word sounds horrible, I may just burn in h*ll for that one *uff*.

                            Bob - they are one in essence bcause they are identical, NOT because they are one being. The key point here being in essence. You are not the only one who has a problem grasping this concept, many Catholics and christians have a hard time understanding the Trinity and the relationship between them. If it was all one entity (God) then it could not be a Trinity.

                            My Bible does not say my Lord is one (meaning the same as) - they are one in Spirit, one in essence, but two seperate beings. Otherwise why state over and over and over the Father and the Son. Please do me a favor and give me the passage that says this:
                            and I will give you the correct interpretation of it.

                            I know you are not here to ridicule, however, you are not as versed as you believe you are.
                            I used the quotation to demonstrate that the one God in the Bible is YHWH. I demonstrated that Jesus was fully God according to the Nicene creed, therefore YHWH, nothing less. The discussion is whether Jesus is God not whether he is the Father. Secondly I advised not to debate the divinty of Jesus based on the fact he worshipped God in the Gospel. Finally, I think it is kind of arrogant for you to think you are better versed in the Bible than me and that I dont know as much as I think. I think actions speak louder than words. Why would you say such a thing? How do you plan on defending your statements suggesting that Jesus is not God (YHWH)?

                            regards,



                            bob
                            Last edited by bob_chasm; Jun 9, 2005, 02:52 AM.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: jesus as god?

                              I used the quotation to demonstrate that the one God in the Bible is YHWH. I demonstrated that Jesus was fully God according to the Nicene creed, therefore YHWH, nothing less.
                              Bob - No you didn't demonstrate, I showed you where you were wrong and you dismissed it. There's a difference. Not knowing the meaning of the word identical (which is a comparitive word) vs same is a problem you have in vocabulary.

                              The discussion is whether Jesus is God not whether he is the Father.
                              God is the Father, Bob, that's the point of the Nicene Creed, also in fact the point of the New Testament establishing the New Covenant as God as the Father of all believers.

                              Secondly I advised not to debate the divinty of Jesus based on the fact he worshipped God in the Gospel.
                              Where did this come from? The fact that I asked you to actually back up your statement about "However, the bible says, your LORD is ONE"? Either put the scripture out there or don't use it.

                              Finally, I think it is kind of arrogant for you to think you are better versed in the Bible than me and that I dont know as much as I think. I think actions speak louder than words. Why would you say such a thing?
                              Not even going to bother with this.

                              How do you plan on defending your statements suggesting that Jesus is not God (YHWH)?
                              I believe I have. But there are still a few outstanding statements made by you that I am still awaiting a reply on.

                              Especially this.

                              However, the bible says, your LORD is ONE. Hence, they have to be identical in substance and in essence as ONE, truly God, not two clone beings as Gods in substance and essence. Jesus is part of the Godhead of Christianity. He is YHWH. I am not here to to ridicule your belief. That is part of the mystery of your God, so I will just leave it alone at that.
                              Brief side issue here - "the name Yahweh is only used for the old covenant context, and not valid for Christians, who believe that they are in a new covenant. This is evident when nowhere in the New Testament does the word Yahweh appear." (taken from here). So, do me a favor, give this a rest already.

                              First you say you am not here to ridicule my belief then you throw out something as condescending as "That is part of the mystery of your God, so I will just leave it alone at that". The mystery of my God??
                              Last edited by minah_pa; Jun 9, 2005, 10:33 AM.
                              "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names." - John F. Kennedy

                              "Someday we gonna rise up on that wind you know
                              Someday we gonna dance with those lions
                              Someday we gonna break free from these chains and keep on flyin'" - flipsyde

                              Comment

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