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    Health, illness and sin

    Originally posted by gupguppy
    ^ yes, NeSCio, please start taking astronaut meals to save yourself... then go have that mental illness looked at that you mentioned in the last lines

    let's not put the cart before the horse... we haven't even established whether the hadith is authentic according to the science of tradition... secondly, we can't be sure of the accuracy of the translation... certainly, i'd like to see how the line "What will save me from sins?" and the subsequent answer read in the original...

    shall we do this first before NASA agent NeSCio sends everyone into orbit?

    if you had read it correctly, the concerns with astronautic food are with respect to the claim that one is not allowed to harm oneself in any way. This is completely different from the hadith about saving you from sins.
    This (=not harming urself whatsoever) is a smaller subdiscussion within the framework of the larger one (=saving urself from sins). The smaller one is as valid without this context as it is with it
    Why so serious ... ?

    #2
    Re: A Most Beautiful hadith Among All The Beautiful Ahadith

    Originally posted by NeSCio

    I think I didn't elaborate well enough in my post. Wat I wanted to say is that when Im suffering from a common cold, I don't think that will stop me from commiting a sin. in other words, with respect to the potential of sinning, it's the same as when you are healthy.
    when you repent to God of a sin - in whatever state of health you are in - you still have the "potential" to commit further sins... is the repentance therefore of no value?

    Comment


      #3
      Re: A Most Beautiful hadith Among All The Beautiful Ahadith

      Originally posted by gupguppy
      when you repent to God - in whatever state of health you are in - you still have the "potential" to commit further sins... is the repentance therefore of no value?

      this isn't a good analogy. If we want to turn it around and instead of sinning, look at repenting, your statement should have been:

      is the repentence you do when healthy of less value than when you are ill, or vice versa?

      and to this question i would answer, both repentences are the same.
      Why so serious ... ?

      Comment


        #4
        Re: A Most Beautiful hadith Among All The Beautiful Ahadith

        ^ that's not the question i asked... feel free to answer your own made up questions, but mine is:

        when you repent to God of a sin - in whatever state of health you are in - you still have the "potential" to commit further sins... is the repentance therefore of no value?

        please try again taking into account the word "potential" that you introduced earlier

        Comment


          #5
          Re: A Most Beautiful hadith Among All The Beautiful Ahadith

          Originally posted by gupguppy
          ^ that's not the question i asked... feel free to answer your own made up questions, but mine is:

          when you repent to God of a sin - in whatever state of health you are in - you still have the "potential" to commit further sins... is the repentance therefore of no value?

          please try again taking into account the word "potential" that you introduced earlier
          well, i didn't not only introduce the word potential, cuz the potential is present always, but I also said the potential is not only present in both instances, but it is also the SAME. Note the 'same', you tactfully ommited it in your statement.

          so the answer to your question: the repentance is not of no value, irrespective of the level of the potential of commiting a sin. Similarly, irrespective of health state the potential is not only present, but is of the same level
          Why so serious ... ?

          Comment


            #6
            Re: A Most Beautiful hadith Among All The Beautiful Ahadith

            also, gupguppy do elaborate how your question is related to the discussion at hand. I fail to see how. Maybe you can add a few lines how my answer (yes or no) to your question will change the course of the discussion
            Why so serious ... ?

            Comment


              #7
              Re: A Most Beautiful hadith Among All The Beautiful Ahadith

              ^ good... now replace repentance with illness (a means of having one's sins forgiven as per Code-Red's posts) and your sentence becomes... "the illness is not of no value, irrespective of the level of the potential of committing a sin"

              Comment


                #8
                Re: A Most Beautiful hadith Among All The Beautiful Ahadith

                Originally posted by gupguppy
                ^ good... now replace repentance with illness (a means of having one's sins forgiven as per Code-Red's posts) and your sentence becomes... "the illness is not of no value, irrespective of the level of the potential of committing a sin"

                wat I said is, repentance is not of no value, irrespective of the level of illness.

                you try to turn it around -by turning around repentance and illness- whereas that is not possible, because we are talking about repentance, given a certain level of illness (in this case all levels of illness), you try to turn it around and talk about illness, given a certain level of potential of commiting a sin. That's not right, because A, given B is not B, given C.

                logically: (A|B) ~= (B|C), and you are violating this rule


                let me elaborate a bit more, your question is:

                is (A|B.C) = 0?

                (A= repenting, B=level of health, C=commiting a sin), you asked whether repenting, given a certain level of health and given the potential to sin, is that of no value (0). I said, A >0 irrespective of B and C.

                And now you suddenly want to turn it around and say that (B|A.C)>0

                that's not right, as I said (A|B) ~= (B|C)




                note: '~=' stand for 'is not equal to'
                Why so serious ... ?

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Health, illness and sin

                  ^ mildly interesting, but plain stupid...

                  the context of the discussion has ALWAYS been about illness... see the thread from which this was untimely ripped... you said there

                  "so if i have a common cold, I am being forgiven for past sins. However, during such a common cold I feel myself as able to commit a sin than outside such episode."

                  that you remain able to or have the "potential" to (as you later clarified) continue committing sins doesn't necessarily cancel out the fact that other sins might still be forgiven by virtue of falling ill... get it? now put your calculator away and pick up some meaningful religious texts

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Health, illness and sin

                    the quote of my post you put, has nothing to do with the question you pose.
                    My quote merely indicates that being ill is not some kind of sanctuary where you are free of sins, or where your potential of committing sins is less than when you are healthy. That's why I say that during a common cold the potential of committing sins is as much present as when you are healthy.It has nothing to do that when you are repenting you still can commit sins, so the value of your repentance might change....or that when you are ill, your repentance will be of more value, or that when you are ill, your potential to commit sins is less.


                    with respect to religious texts, the only two verses from religious scriptures I have seen are posted by Code_Red: You shall not kill yourselves. (4:29) He also says: Do not expose yourselves to ruin. (2: 195)

                    These two verses tell us not to kill or expose yourself to harm, but nothing so adament as you all are trying to portray.("you will not harm yourselves in any way possible at any give time etc etc etc" against which I brought the examples of salt, fat etc)

                    apart from these two verses, all other external references have been from historical scriptures/texts. So again, I fail to see why specifically I should go and pick up religious texts, whereas noone else has done so.
                    Why so serious ... ?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Health, illness and sin

                      Originally posted by NeSCio
                      the quote of my post you put, has nothing to do with the question you pose.
                      My quote merely indicates that being ill is not some kind of sanctuary where you are free of sins, or where your potential of committing sins is less than when you are healthy. That's why I say that during a common cold the potential of committing sins is as much present as when you are healthy.It has nothing to do that when you are repenting you still can commit sins, so the value of your repentance might change....or that when you are ill, your repentance will be of more value, or that when you are ill, your potential to commit sins is less.
                      do you always confuse yourself so easily? here's another quote from you (i hope here you were saying something relevant)...

                      "Wat I wanted to say is that when Im suffering from a common cold, I don't think that will stop me from committing a sin. in other words, with respect to the potential of sinning, it's the same as when you are healthy."

                      ... to which there's a very simple reply...

                      that you remain able to or have the "potential" to continue committing sins doesn't cancel out the fact that other earlier sins might still be forgiven by virtue of falling ill (in the same way that retaining the potential to commit future sins doesn't negate a sincere repentance from former sins)

                      no one was saying being ill stops you from sinning or that your potential to sin disappears... only that the illness itself expiates sins.... get it? no?

                      and certainly no one is suggesting "poisoning" oneself or contracting "strange bacteria"... something only someone ignorant of the basics of Islam would even think to suggest

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Health, illness and sin

                        ^ How elegant of you to forget the initial statement that sparkled this discussion:

                        Q: What will save me from sins?

                        A: Tears, humility and illness



                        This question, just like the ones in its vicinity in the hadith, asks about wat actions to undertake in order to save you from sins. As it says: wat will save me from sins. Clearly, you can't be saved from previous sins....those are already commited,....you can only be saved from the consequences of those sins once committed. So clearly this sentence (save us from sins) isn't applied to past sins. It's however, applied to future sins, as it also make sense looking at the construction of the sentence: wat will save me from sins? Clearly, a 'futuristic' implications is made in these verses, implying wat will save this person from commiting sins in the future. The once already committed he cannot be saved from....he has already committed those, he can only be saved from the punishment of those sins.
                        Either the hadith is not clear enough, or the wording is not clear....but either way the deduction I made from this statement still holds, unless you want to rephrase this statement.


                        On the other hand, if you want to look at it the other way, namely "that you remain able to or have the "potential" to continue committing sins doesn't cancel out the fact that other earlier sins might still be forgiven by virtue of falling ill (in the same way that retaining the potential to commit future sins doesn't negate a sincere repentance from former sins)" implies an active process; even more certainly, if you say that falling ill is a virtue. Furthermore looking at the other two replies to this question (tears and humility as proxy for repentance) are also active processes....you actively feel that u did something wrong and thereby produce tears.......Furthermore, all answers to the other questions are also all active replies that that person need to do, so why suddenly a passive interpretation of illness?


                        the above two paragraphs discuss the hadith from two points of view. The first one where the answer is seen as referrring to be saved from future sins, the second as referring to be saved from sins already commited, although I fail to see how u can be saved from previous sins.....u can only be saved from the punishment of those sins. In both instances the wording of the hadith leaves room for a lot of discussion and is not self-conclusive
                        Last edited by NeSCio; Jun 3, 2005, 03:52 PM.
                        Why so serious ... ?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Health, illness and sin

                          Originally posted by NeSCio
                          I fail to see how u can be saved from previous sins.....u can only be saved from the punishment of those sins.
                          finally you've seen the light... although you still seem to want people to poison themselves and contract strange bacteria but that's an obsession i'll leave to you

                          your attempt to question the hadith from a linguistic perspective is premature to say the least given that the text we have here is a translation... what word is it in the original that has been rendered as "save"? can you tell us please?... does the original Arabic include or allow for a grammatical ellipsis wherein a word or words is/are suppressed (idmar) or omitted but assumed (taqdir)? so the question might in fact be: "What will save me from [being punished for my] sins" and the answer might be: "Tears, humility and [suffering an] illness"... so don't get ahead of yourself

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Health, illness and sin

                            Originally posted by gupguppy
                            finally you've seen the light... although you still seem to want people to poison themselves and contract strange bacteria but that's an obsession i'll leave to you

                            your attempt to question the hadith from a linguistic perspective is premature to say the least given that the text we have here is a translation... what word is it in the original that has been rendered as "save"? can you tell us please?... does the original Arabic include or allow for a grammatical ellipsis wherein a word or words is/are suppressed (idmar) or omitted but assumed (taqdir)? so the question might in fact be: "What will save me from [being punished for my] sins" and the answer might be: "Tears, humility and [suffering an] illness"... so don't get ahead of yourself

                            well, I agree that omitting might be premature, but on authority of what CAN you in fact insert the parts in parenthesis? the only answer to this (whether we can or cannot IN THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE and in light of the implicity that is inserted in the other two answers (tears and humility insert the assumed part) is if we go back and reanalyze it from scratch......so I invite you to try and get a [i] first hand original copy of the document[i] with this Hadith, where it was written for the first time and we can settle this issue for once and for all.
                            (and even then an issue will remain whether these were words of the prophet in the first place)

                            since you are very fond of bringing forth religious texts, I'm sure you won't decline this request ;-)


                            but even if not that, do tell me why suddenly a passive stance for illness, whereas all other things are active things?
                            Last edited by NeSCio; Jun 3, 2005, 04:43 PM.
                            Why so serious ... ?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Health, illness and sin

                              Originally posted by NeSCio
                              so I invite you to try and get a [i] first hand original copy of the document[i] with this Hadith, where it was written for the first time and we can settle this issue for once and for all.
                              stop copying me... i more or less asked the same thing in the other thread some 11 months ago! and repeated earlier today

                              (and even then an issue will remain whether these were words of the prophet in the first place)
                              see again my post of 11 months ago

                              since you are very fond of bringing forth religious texts, I'm sure you won't decline this request ;-)
                              see my post of 11 months ago... i suppose you aren't going to bother looking for the text yourself then? you aren't really that interested i suppose

                              but even if not that, do tell me why suddenly a passive stance for illness, whereas all other things are active things?
                              here we go again, poisoning and strange bacteria

                              Comment

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