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    Limits of God..

    God is supreme and almighty and can create anything.
    If this is the case then can He/She can create things that even God himself/herself can't control afterwards? doesn't that mean that God has limits as well?
    - I swear to drunk I am not God :-/

    #2
    Re: Limits of God..

    Suroor, this philosophical question is actually thus:

    "Can god create something so heavy that he himself cannot lift?"

    If a believer replies yes, he can create something like that, to which the philosopher will raise his index finger and raising his eyebrows will reply, "Aha! So god is not all-powerful as he claims because he can't lift the stone..."

    If a believer replies no, he can't create something like that, to which the philosopher will again raise his index finger and raising his eyebrows will reply, "Aha! So god is not omniscient as he claims because he can't create something like that..."

    So in confusion, some in the ranks of the believers will start doubting their faith, while others will smile and sleep in peace...

    The whole question revolves around making god a figue that is easily digestible and understandable by their own limited thinking...They wish to put God inside the limited confines of their own brain (Of which they use only 11 or 12 percent anyway)...

    The answer is simple...God is not limited to human logic...

    For the past 25 years they have just now begun to understand the subsurface working of their own brains, and they wish to get an answer that will dissolve god into their tiny consciousness...

    And if the truth be told, we were never told...And since we were never told about it, why worry about it?
    Focus not on who you are but what you do...
    ])>:::}-:Salams:-{:::<([

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Limits of God..

      yep, just came up in a conversation i had with someone in uni. thought i post it here as well and get different views.
      then God shudn't have given us minds to think about it either and humans wudnt worry about it either.
      - I swear to drunk I am not God :-/

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Limits of God..

        Originally posted by suroor_ca02
        yep, just came up in a conversation i had with someone in uni. thought i post it here as well and get different views.
        then God shudn't have given us minds to think about it either and humans wudnt worry about it either.
        He gave you other things to worry about and make the best of your times...He's drawn the line on a couple of things...Him and after death and a few others...

        Use that inquisitive mind for something else...That same mind has lead people to very wrong things too...

        Don't trust your mind only, trust your heart too...
        Focus not on who you are but what you do...
        ])>:::}-:Salams:-{:::<([

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Limits of God..

          what may be wrong for u may not be wrong for others. who/what defines that "line" drawn by God? doesnt it vary from religion to religion.
          - I swear to drunk I am not God :-/

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Limits of God..

            Originally posted by suroor_ca02
            what may be wrong for u may not be wrong for others. who/what defines that "line" drawn by God? doesnt it vary from religion to religion.
            Forget other religions' lines...Who are you? What is your belief?

            Where does your faith draw the line? Find that out first, then seek to limit god to your thinking...
            Focus not on who you are but what you do...
            ])>:::}-:Salams:-{:::<([

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Limits of God..

              my question wasn't referred to any specific belief or religion. it was in regards to all the beliefs and religions in general.
              i have yet to find out who i am and what i believe in. hence all the questions.
              Last edited by suroor_ca02; May 19, 2005, 01:24 AM.
              - I swear to drunk I am not God :-/

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Limits of God..

                Originally posted by suroor_ca02
                God is supreme and almighty and can create anything.
                If this is the case then can He/She can create things that even God himself/herself can't control afterwards? doesn't that mean that God has limits as well?
                Words cannot define Gods attributes or sud I say, God's attributes cannot be described by human language.

                Human beings have a limited life, God is eternal. Similarly, our experiences, intellectual capabilities and achievements are time constrained, while that cannot be said for the creator and sustainer of this universe.

                Human beings do have their limits, for they are mortal (who wud like to be immortalized), Same cannot be said for God, the creator and sustainer. Therefore, any efforts to conceptualize God's attributes will always be subject to time and condition.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Limits of God..

                  God can create a stone so heavy even he can't lift it?

                  interesting series of responses to this question here...

                  http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=142226

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Limits of God..

                    can God create square circle? just because we can play around with words which seem to have no logical answer doesnt mean that we are smarter than Allah. we should avoid using our minds in these kinds of talk, because our minds will cause us to enter in hell....

                    The Mujrimūn (polytheists, criminals, sinners, etc.) will be known by their marks (black faces), and they will be seized by their forelocks and their feet. (Ar-Rahman 55:41)

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Limits of God..

                      ^ heaven and hell is another discussion. its adopted from zorastrian religion, to motivate humans to do things which comes under morally approved by the boundaries of a particular religion. again which varies from religion to religion.
                      - I swear to drunk I am not God :-/

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Limits of God..

                        All comes down to faith little one. There are no answers. Reasoning leads you brick walls. Is it your preogative wheither to believe something lies beyond it. Or not. Sometimes the greater bravery is in taking this leap. Rather than sticking to reaffirmed truths (ie nothing else is there).

                        I am Bsing. Belive what cha will. Its all gravy baby.
                        rubber band rubber band rubber band rubber band rubber band

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Limits of God..

                          Originally posted by ThandyMazaq
                          can God create square circle? just because we can play around with words which seem to have no logical answer doesnt mean that we are smarter than Allah. we should avoid using our minds in these kinds of talk, because our minds will cause us to enter in hell....

                          The Mujrimūn (polytheists, criminals, sinners, etc.) will be known by their marks (black faces), and they will be seized by their forelocks and their feet. (Ar-Rahman 55:41)

                          why in the first place god create polytheist then ask them exlculisively pray to him
                          cant he proggramme everyone to think same way pray to same god .

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Limits of God..

                            Originally posted by suroor_ca02
                            God is supreme and almighty and can create anything.
                            If this is the case then can He/She can create things that even God himself/herself can't control afterwards? doesn't that mean that God has limits as well?
                            Simply put : NO.

                            God is all powerful . He can create anything but He will always be able to control it . Because he is the Supreme Being .

                            I think we base God's attributes from what we know of humans. That is not the case of course. If God had limits or was not able to control his creations - that would not be God. Thats what we humans are.
                            "Today in heaven they opened up a new chest dedicated to charity. It's name ?"

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Limits of God..

                              Originally posted by Muslim_Queen
                              Simply put : NO.


                              God is all powerful . He can create anything but He will always be able to control it . Because he is the Supreme Being .
                              How can God exert control if God cannot change? How can God CREATE..because that would require a CHANGE!

                              State A = God is.
                              State B = God and a bunch of idiot humans along with a universe.

                              See..religion likes to have it both ways. God is perfect, immutable and unrepresentable, timeless, spaceless, nowhere, everywhere, conscious without a brain, knowledge without a storage for memory....yet God can DO things...God is not a "vegetable"..he is active, invovled, thinking, talking, creating.

                              Static yet Dynamic
                              A Being that is not a Being

                              Originally posted by Muslim_Queen

                              I think we base God's attributes from what we know of humans. That is not the case of course. If God had limits or was not able to control his creations - that would not be God. Thats what we humans are.
                              Yup..so we cannot put a limit on God as that would be inconsistent with the definition of God. Hence, any attribute we give to God is incorrect...because ATTRIBUTES are strictly defined to entities within the scheme of this universe. Therefore, we can never know anything about God, if we assert that the definition of God is that he is or is like nothing/nothingness. As soon as we say God is _____ then that word would naturally be a human constructed adjective or attribute. Even words like Eternal, All-Powerful..they put a constraint on God in terms of God having humanizing qualities. I am not saying God is not eternal or all-powerful..because claiming the negative ALSO asserts an attribute on God. Simply put..what I'm saying is that if we go with the definition of God given by the most religions, then we usually hit some inconsistancy or contradiction because we cannot separate what is knowable from what is religious speculation. God's attributes are not knowable from reading a holy book. That is not knowledge but secondary information that can only be believed..not known. Attributes have to be experienced..and if God's attributes are not within the realm of the universe we can never experience them. Experience leads to knowledge. Also, there are implicit non-experienced concepts (elementary math, logical structures) that lead to some form of knowledge..but even here we cannot grasp a hold of God's attributes if we claim that God is not expressable by any part of this universe.


                              Let's put it another way. Start off by saying there is this human being X. Then more information is received that states this person is not in this universe, but not outside it either. Then person X also has no shape or size... nor consists of matter. To compound this the person X does not change! Ofcourse, change from what? We don't know what the person X consists of. Apparently..since we stated in the first sentence that X is a human being..we already attribute to this person: consciousness, morality, imperfection etc. However, X is in a state of no-state and no time. On part of this entity being human, we can say that X has some level of honesty, integrity, some skills, love, hate, knowledge etc. But...we are looking at our current definition of humans to describe this other "human". But X is nothing like a human! How are we to INTEGRATE human qualities and attributes with person X! What needs to be done is to realize that our original information is not complete..we only know what person X is NOT...but we don't know what person X IS. Therefore, person X, logically, must have some form that is not a form from this universe..that allows it to not change and not take up space...and is not in or outside of the universe. This is really weird and confusing.

                              Indeed..the confusion stems from us trying to retain TWO somewhat contrary assertions:
                              1. X is not like anything in this universe. X is practically inconceivable.
                              2. X has all the attributes of a regular human.

                              Now if we extend this analogy to God..the confusion becomes:
                              1. God is inconceivable. God is a changeless, formless, timeless..something that is not a thing.
                              2. God has perfect human attributes. God also has consciousness even though God cannot change (i dont know how this works). God has emotions (as is shown thru religious texts) even though God has no form.

                              Does God have a form thats not a form? Is that blasphemous...are we to state uniequivocally that God has no form..cannot change...cannot exist anywhere or everywhere (as either will limit God and give shape and form)..and is not affected or limited by time (is God static?)

                              Essentially we start by saying GOD IS NOTHING. And then we start attaching things to Him. We are attaching humanistic attributes on nothing. And then claim that we KNOW this being and it is TRUTH. No we dont..we don't know anything.

                              It is true when they say we shouldn't ask such questions..because they lead to disbelief and whatnot. But, why doesn't it work the other way..why should religious "truths" be asserted as perfect, unchangeable KNOWLEDGE..when it is not knowledge but simply information..that can never be verified. And if they cannot be verified..cannot be known...cannot be questioned..what is the purpose? It gives us something to relate to...something to conceptualize even thought God is not conceptualizable. That is why polytheism developed in the first place. Its not an evil thing...its a very natural expression of human needs....and monotheism is an evolution of it. The next step (after Islam) has been to realize the unity of everything. That there is no separation.

                              It seems that monotheistic religion promotes such a concept of God that forces people to basically not worship anything within this universe. It seems to be a preventative model..so that everything in this universe becomes equal....egalitarianism. So this is what we're worshipping: not-in-universe. Logically a God cannot be anything in the universe..however..apart from that..we really should not and cannot say anything about God..because it becomes conjecture...or ppl believe THEIR holy book is describing God(and how many interpetations of those are there anyways!)

                              The moment we ascribe God qualities..we run the risk of creating our own idol...infact..the moment we gave God a name...we distinguish an entity that is simply an idea in our mind.

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